What makes Carson special

[Joe from Florence]

This is a story from monday's training camp......
This is why the Bengals love Carson Palmer and why they are keeping the faith in middle linebacker Ahmad Brooks.

On Monday night, Brooks stepped in front of a Palmer pass, intercepted it, and took off the other way in frightening fashion. But Palmer called him back because he wanted to pick Brooks' brain about the pick.
"He wanted to know my view. He wanted to know why I slipped back to cover Chad (Johnson)," Brooks said. "It's a rule of our defense."
Without giving anything away, Brooks patiently explained that once he saw the formation, the number of receivers and where they were aligned, he read the rule that ends with "Read the quarterback's eyes." "I just wanted to see what he saw," Palmer said. "Why he jumped that route from his point. See what happened. He knew exactly what happened. He's as athletic as anyone we have on defense. I'm excited to see him play. He's got a lot of pressure to perform. I think he'll live up to the hype and the pressure is everyone is putting on him."

Carson is always learning and wanting to know what defenders are thinking and how to learn to beat the defenses he see's each week.
This is what i saw as a weak point in Big Ben....he needs to study defenses and try and learn what they are doing in different formations etc. If Ben can learn to study the defenses better he will be a succesful qb for years to come.....but last year he didn't show the ability to do this.

[Steely_J]

http://www.lordstowndq.com/WafflebowlSundae-Q107_Xlrg.jpg

[Firefly]

I'll take the one in the middle, and a large Coke please..............man I had a feeling this is what you did.

[Jom112]

You have to be realistic though Joe.
If Ben spent time talking to everyone who intercepted him, he wouldn't have much time for anything else...

[IgnoreME]

You have to be realistic though Joe.
If Ben spent time talking to everyone who intercepted him, he wouldn't have much time for anything else...

Between that and hospital visits, he would be like an old man in a retirement home

[Joe from Florence]

You have to be realistic though Joe.
If Ben spent time talking to everyone who intercepted him, he wouldn't have much time for anything else...

so true.....the networks would mistake him for a sideline reporter

[IgnoreME]

You have to be realistic though Joe.
If Ben spent time talking to everyone who intercepted him, he wouldn't have much time for anything else...

so true.....the networks would mistake him for a sideline reporter

Nah he is far too ugly for that. Would be another Larry King but for sports

[JS-Steelerfan]

http://www.lordstowndq.com/WafflebowlSundae-Q107_Xlrg.jpg
http://www.hattiesicecreamparlor.homestead.com/ww1.gif
See you October 28, Joe!

[Rayne]

This is a story from monday's training camp......
This is why the Bengals love Carson Palmer and why they are keeping the faith in middle linebacker Ahmad Brooks.

On Monday night, Brooks stepped in front of a Palmer pass, intercepted it, and took off the other way in frightening fashion. But Palmer called him back because he wanted to pick Brooks' brain about the pick.
"He wanted to know my view. He wanted to know why I slipped back to cover Chad (Johnson)," Brooks said. "It's a rule of our defense."
Without giving anything away, Brooks patiently explained that once he saw the formation, the number of receivers and where they were aligned, he read the rule that ends with "Read the quarterback's eyes." "I just wanted to see what he saw," Palmer said. "Why he jumped that route from his point. See what happened. He knew exactly what happened. He's as athletic as anyone we have on defense. I'm excited to see him play. He's got a lot of pressure to perform. I think he'll live up to the hype and the pressure is everyone is putting on him."

Carson is always learning and wanting to know what defenders are thinking and how to learn to beat the defenses he see's each week.
This is what i saw as a weak point in Big Ben....he needs to study defenses and try and learn what they are doing in different formations etc. If Ben can learn to study the defenses better he will be a succesful qb for years to come.....but last year he didn't show the ability to do this.

No, he didn't. He did it the first couple years, but not last year and not in Detroit. He seems to make up his mind before the snap who the WR is going to be, and goes with that.

[ikestops85]

Ben definitely had a problem last year which he readily admits. He tried to force many of his throws and they were picked off. He also isn't afraid to throw the long ball into traffic near the end of the half or game which accounted for more than a few of his interceptions last year.
I think Ben's progression as a QB is different than most new QBs because of the unprecedented success he had his first 2 years. I think it made him complacent on what he still had to learn to be a good QB. This year he has made a concerted effort to practice with his receivers during the off-season, get himself good physical condition and practically live with the offensive coordinator. Hopefully all of this will pay dividends this season.

I do think Carson is a special .... just like many of the folks who live in Cincy. That's why we have special buses for these special people ... the short ones. [:P]
J/K ... Carson is a good QB and will only get better which is kinda scary for the other teams in the AFCN.

[Steely_J]

I'll take the one in the middle, and a large Coke please..............man I had a feeling this is what you did.


Hahaha... sigh... if only you guys knew what I do. Here's some food for thought,.. my line of work has let me meet your beloved Chad Johnson a few times, and I can say right now, he's a very cool guy. [H]

[Firefly]

I'll take the one in the middle, and a large Coke please..............man I had a feeling this is what you did.


Hahaha... sigh... if only you guys knew what I do. Here's some food for thought,.. my line of work has let me meet your beloved Chad Johnson a few times, and I can say right now, he's a very cool guy. [H]
Well seeing how Chad loves McDonald's breakfasts, you could very well work the drive-thru there in Georgetown.....who knows.

[philhos]

I'll take the one in the middle, and a large Coke please..............man I had a feeling this is what you did.


Hahaha... sigh... if only you guys knew what I do. Here's some food for thought,.. my line of work has let me meet your beloved Chad Johnson a few times, and I can say right now, he's a very cool guy. [H]

Oh, so YOU'RE the one who designed those ridiculous foam-rubber mohawk skull-cap thingies! [:@]

[doctorhook18]

Of course he is going to ask Brooks what he saw! Because if I'm Palmer, and a schmuck like Brooks can pick me off, then any LB in the league should be able to because something is majorly wrong! Maybe he needs and eye exam? Maybe he is feeling "pushed" from Doug Johnson? Maybe he needs to quit eating corn flakes for breakfast and start eating Wheaties with a REAL QB on the box?
http://wheaties.com/img/boxes_fullsize/peytonmanning.jpg
Keep the Palmer "fluff" pieces over in the Jungle noise so you and the rests of the ladies can read them and feel good about your 8-8 team! (consider the pot officially stirred!)

[Jom112]

Of course he is going to ask Brooks what he saw! Because if I'm Palmer, and a schmuck like Brooks can pick me off, then any LB in the league should be able to because something is majorly wrong! Maybe he needs and eye exam? Maybe he is feeling "pushed" from Dough Johnson? Maybe he needs to quit eating corn flakes for breakfast and start eating Wheaties with a REAL QB on the box!
http://wheaties.com/img/boxes_fullsize/peytonmanning.jpg
Keep the Palmer "fluff" pieces over in the Jungle noise so you and the rests of the ladies can read them and feel good about your 8-8 team! (consider the pot officially stirred!)

I feel for the guy that had to spend countless hours with photoshop to fit Manning's head on that box...

[doctorhook18]

I agree! The guy has not only talent on the computer, but patience to boot! John Morrell should have hired him to their Carson Palmer add........what a fiasco that was! If I was Carson I would fired my agent!

[Long Time Bengal Fan]

Of course he is going to ask Brooks what he saw! Because if I'm Palmer, and a schmuck like Brooks can pick me off, then any LB in the league should be able to because something is majorly wrong! Maybe he needs and eye exam? Maybe he is feeling "pushed" from Doug Johnson? Maybe he needs to quit eating corn flakes for breakfast and start eating Wheaties with a REAL QB on the box?
http://wheaties.com/img/boxes_fullsize/peytonmanning.jpg
Keep the Palmer "fluff" pieces over in the Jungle noise so you and the rests of the ladies can read them and feel good about your 8-8 team! (consider the pot officially stirred!)

M-I-C-K-E-Y---M-O-U-S-E post.
After this year Carson will have officially dethroned your beloved Peyton as the best quarterback in the NFL.
Isn't it time Manning retired? Seems to me he is getting a little long in the tooth.
P.S. Stay off the pot and your posts will make more sense!

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I agree! The guy has not only talent on the computer, but patience to boot! John Morrell should have hired him to their Carson Palmer add........what a fiasco that was! If I was Carson I would fired my agent!

Your Quarterback personifies your team, your stadium, your town and your entire state....one big giant feminine hygene product.

[doctorhook18]

We have something in common! Your QB personifies your team, your stadium, your town, and your entire state too!
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/sports.aol.com/fanhouse/media/2007/05/palmerdog3.jpg
Who's all going to the CARSON PALMER CORNHOLE CLASSIC?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

We have something in common! Your QB personifies your team, your stadium, your town, and your entire state too!

I dont see the big deal about that add, but then, when i see a hot dog i dont think about my husband....like men from indiana do.

[Steely_J]

Of course he is going to ask Brooks what he saw! Because if I'm Palmer, and a schmuck like Brooks can pick me off, then any LB in the league should be able to because something is majorly wrong! Maybe he needs and eye exam? Maybe he is feeling "pushed" from Doug Johnson? Maybe he needs to quit eating corn flakes for breakfast and start eating Wheaties with a REAL QB on the box?
http://wheaties.com/img/boxes_fullsize/peytonmanning.jpg
Keep the Palmer "fluff" pieces over in the Jungle noise so you and the rests of the ladies can read them and feel good about your 8-8 team! (consider the pot officially stirred!)

M-I-C-K-E-Y---M-O-U-S-E post.
After this year Carson will have officially dethroned your beloved Peyton as the best quarterback in the NFL.
Isn't it time Manning retired? Seems to me he is getting a little long in the tooth.
P.S. Stay off the pot and your posts will make more sense!


Care to explain that one?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

on a serious note, whats the deal with manning licking fingers constantly during games? is that an ocd thing is he trying to taste jeff saturday's taint?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

M-I-C-K-E-Y---M-O-U-S-E post.
After this year Carson will have officially dethroned your beloved Peyton as the best quarterback in the NFL.
Isn't it time Manning retired? Seems to me he is getting a little long in the tooth.
P.S. Stay off the pot and your posts will make more sense!


Care to explain that one?


Carson threw more td's than peyton in '05, was second only to peyton last year. this year i can definately see him throwing as many or more than manning. "best" QB is always going to be a debate between who puts up the best numbers and who plays on the best team though.

[deviant]

We have something in common! Your QB personifies your team, your stadium, your town, and your entire state too!
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/sports.aol.com/fanhouse/media/2007/05/palmerdog3.jpg
Who's all going to the CARSON PALMER CORNHOLE CLASSIC?

What's that? That Ohio is pretty well known for great football players, love to eat hot dogs (who doesn't? If you can tell me you've never been in that position you are either a) lying, or b) a communist)...
Why is it that people like to make fun of Charity events? First the Chad Johnson racing a horse, and now Karson's Kornhole KlassiK... is it because they've raised more money for children than you'll ever earn at Whataburger? Seriously, come up with something new... this stuff has been beat to death.

[bengalsfan4ever]

http://www.lordstowndq.com/WafflebowlSundae-Q107_Xlrg.jpg

that has to be the best looking waffles i have ever seen

[Captain Obvious]

This is a story from monday's training camp......
This is why the Bengals love Carson Palmer and why they are keeping the faith in middle linebacker Ahmad Brooks.

On Monday night, Brooks stepped in front of a Palmer pass, intercepted it, and took off the other way in frightening fashion. But Palmer called him back because he wanted to pick Brooks' brain about the pick.
"He wanted to know my view. He wanted to know why I slipped back to cover Chad (Johnson)," Brooks said. "It's a rule of our defense."
Without giving anything away, Brooks patiently explained that once he saw the formation, the number of receivers and where they were aligned, he read the rule that ends with "Read the quarterback's eyes." "I just wanted to see what he saw," Palmer said. "Why he jumped that route from his point. See what happened. He knew exactly what happened. He's as athletic as anyone we have on defense. I'm excited to see him play. He's got a lot of pressure to perform. I think he'll live up to the hype and the pressure is everyone is putting on him."

Carson is always learning and wanting to know what defenders are thinking and how to learn to beat the defenses he see's each week.
This is what i saw as a weak point in Big Ben....he needs to study defenses and try and learn what they are doing in different formations etc. If Ben can learn to study the defenses better he will be a succesful qb for years to come.....but last year he didn't show the ability to do this.

You should reserve judgment for Ben until a few games into this season, because his first year he broke a rookie record, in his second year he led the Steelers to a Superbowl win. What way was there for Ben to go but down? He couldn't go up any this season. He had one bad season and you're blasting him like he's Akili Smith or something. I have a feeling he will turn it around this year.

[Joe from Florence]

blah

[I_LOVE_ME_SOME_BENGALS]

M-I-C-K-E-Y---M-O-U-S-E post.
After this year Carson will have officially dethroned your beloved Peyton as the best quarterback in the NFL.
Isn't it time Manning retired? Seems to me he is getting a little long in the tooth.
P.S. Stay off the pot and your posts will make more sense!


Care to explain that one?


Carson threw more td's than peyton in '05, was second only to peyton last year. this year i can definately see him throwing as many or more than manning. "best" QB is always going to be a debate between who puts up the best numbers and who plays on the best team though.


Going to have a hard time beating Peyton Manning with Chris Perry and Chris Henry off the field. He should be better than Peyton for the last 6 games though.

[Steely_J]

Carson threw more td's than peyton in '05, was second only to peyton last year. this year i can definately see him throwing as many or more than manning. "best" QB is always going to be a debate between who puts up the best numbers and who plays on the best team though.

Going to have a hard time beating Peyton Manning with Chris Perry and Chris Henry off the field. He should be better than Peyton for the last 6 games though.

Sorry,.. but telling me all your hopes and dreams for Carson does not explain how Manning all the sudden looks tired and run down after an amazing year and winning a SuperBowl.

He's not Elway.. and even if he was, Elway still came back to win another.

So I'll say again... "care to explain that one?"

[BobGeeFromPGH]

This is a story from monday's training camp......
This is why the Bengals love Carson Palmer and why they are keeping the faith in middle linebacker Ahmad Brooks.

On Monday night, Brooks stepped in front of a Palmer pass, intercepted it, and took off the other way in frightening fashion. But Palmer called him back because he wanted to pick Brooks' brain about the pick.
"He wanted to know my view. He wanted to know why I slipped back to cover Chad (Johnson)," Brooks said. "It's a rule of our defense."
Without giving anything away, Brooks patiently explained that once he saw the formation, the number of receivers and where they were aligned, he read the rule that ends with "Read the quarterback's eyes." "I just wanted to see what he saw," Palmer said. "Why he jumped that route from his point. See what happened. He knew exactly what happened. He's as athletic as anyone we have on defense. I'm excited to see him play. He's got a lot of pressure to perform. I think he'll live up to the hype and the pressure is everyone is putting on him."

Carson is always learning and wanting to know what defenders are thinking and how to learn to beat the defenses he see's each week.
This is what i saw as a weak point in Big Ben....he needs to study defenses and try and learn what they are doing in different formations etc. If Ben can learn to study the defenses better he will be a succesful qb for years to come.....but last year he didn't show the ability to do this.

Call it luck or call it smart football minds..Having drafted Palmer who has shown an uncanny ability to find the open man and get the ball to him,,,,Yes that is what all QB's are supposed to do...but less than a handful can deliver that year in and year out. Even this Steeler fan can appreciate talent and ability even if it is one of our home teams inner Divisional rivals.
And for the last 3 years Palmer is the type of QB that is very consistant....granted he has superb wide outs but also he has off the field presence. Palmer is a "Class Act" on and off the field.

We have spent many a post debating the abilities of Big Ben...but could any fan reardless of their home team favorite question, a Palmer, or a Brady or a Manning starting for them???

and we get to see these guys apply their skills in our conferrence and /or Div...!!!!!

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Sorry,.. but telling me all your hopes and dreams for Carson does not explain how Manning all the sudden looks tired and run down after an amazing year and winning a SuperBowl.

He's not Elway.. and even if he was, Elway still came back to win another.

So I'll say again... "care to explain that one?"

It's not about Manning looking bad, he doesn't. Its about Palmer becoming better and better. When our line protects him, Palmer will throw more TDs than any QB in the league, case in point is 2005, what further proves that is 2006, the guy got sacked more than twice as much last year than he did in 2005 and still throws 28 td's, the second most in the league.

[Rayne]

It's not about Manning looking bad, he doesn't. Its about Palmer becoming better and better. When our line protects him, Palmer will throw more TDs than any QB in the league, case in point is 2005, what further proves that is 2006, the guy got sacked more than twice as much last year than he did in 2005 and still throws 28 td's, the second most in the league.

If only he had a defense......

[Veteran Leadership]

You should reserve judgment for Ben until a few games into this season, because his first year he broke a rookie record, in his second year he led the Steelers to a Superbowl win. What way was there for Ben to go but down? He couldn't go up any this season. He had one bad season and you're blasting him like he's Akili Smith or something. I have a feeling he will turn it around this year.


Umm let me check your logic here. Since Ben led the Steelers to the SB (also known as handing the ball off and not consistently showing that he can win a game with throwing the ball) the only thing that could have happened with him is to get worse? I mean there was no way that Ben could have actually gee I dont know maybe get a two to one TD INT ratio, or maybe learn to not make idiotic throws as often as he does. It isn't like the guy got done having the best season a QB ever had KSR, Ben isn't even at the level of Drew Brees but **** he plateaued, and Ben just can't get any better now.:huh::huh:

[Bengaltime]

If only he had a defense......

Alas this is true and will only change once we rid ourselves of a certain DC...

[SteelTorch]

Umm let me check your logic here. Since Ben led the Steelers to the SB (also known as handing the ball off and not consistently showing that he can win a game with throwing the ball) the only thing that could have happened with him is to get worse? I mean there was no way that Ben could have actually gee I dont know maybe get a two to one TD INT ratio, or maybe learn to not make idiotic throws as often as he does. It isn't like the guy got done having the best season a QB ever had KSR, Ben isn't even at the level of Drew Brees but **** he plateaued, and Ben just can't get any better now.:huh::huh:

Um, no. Actually Ben's arm is one of the reason's we won in the playoffs. We threw early to get ahead, then ran the ball to maintain the lead. I can understand if you forgot though, being a Bengals fan and all. ;)

[Veteran Leadership]

Um, no. Actually Ben's arm is one of the reason's we won in the playoffs. We threw early to get ahead, then ran the ball to maintain the lead. I can understand if you forgot though, being a Bengals fan and all. ;)


Yeah, Ben was the reason you got ahead against the Bengals in the playoffs. Wait no, that was our terrible defense. Ben was the reason you got ahead in the playoffs against Denver, wait no that was them biting on the playaction every time and Bailey playing like a complete *******. Ben was the reason you got ahead versus the colts too right? If Ben was actually a good passer he would be able to maintain a good TD to INT ratio. If Ben was a good passer he would actually be able to throw a deep ball with a tight spiral, as opposed to those quailing ducks that he tosses up. If Ben was a good passer he wouldn't throw interceptions that even BRETT FARVE thinks are god awful. If Ben was a good passer he would be able to read a defense, and if Ben was a good passer he could do well on non playaction passes. Your running game is the only reason Ben has a good completion percentage. That and easy dump off passes that is. The notion that he is the reason you win games is asinine. The reason the Steelers win games is because you run the ball well, you milk the clock, you have a good defense and you have playmakers like Ward and Heath. Ben is an above average QB (mainly because this is a rather shallow QB pool that we have currently) nothing more and nothing less. The steelers would have the same if not more success with an entire slew of quarterbacks in this league.

[SteelTorch]

Yeah, Ben was the reason you got ahead against the Bengals in the playoffs. Wait no, that was our terrible defense. Ben was the reason you got ahead in the playoffs against Denver, wait no that was them biting on the playaction every time and Bailey playing like a complete *******. Ben was the reason you got ahead versus the colts too right? If Ben was actually a good passer he would be able to maintain a good TD to INT ratio. If Ben was a good passer he would actually be able to throw a deep ball with a tight spiral, as opposed to those quailing ducks that he tosses up. If Ben was a good passer he wouldn't throw interceptions that even BRETT FARVE thinks are god awful. If Ben was a good passer he would be able to read a defense, and if Ben was a good passer he could do well on non playaction passes. Your running game is the only reason Ben has a good completion percentage. That and easy dump off passes that is. The notion that he is the reason you win games is asinine. The reason the Steelers win games is because you run the ball well, you milk the clock, you have a good defense and you have playmakers like Ward and Heath. Ben is an above average QB (mainly because this is a rather shallow QB pool that we have currently) nothing more and nothing less. The steelers would have the same if not more success with an entire slew of quarterbacks in this league.
So when Palmer does well, it's because he's a god, not because the other teams do poorly. TOOL! :D

Also, since our QB's not the reason we did well, how come our entire team suffered with the likes of Kordell and Maddox screwing things up? How come we jumped from 6-10 to 15-1? Clutch play by Ben. :D

[Captain Obvious]

So when Palmer does well, it's because he's a god, not because the other teams do poorly. TOOL! :D

Also, since our QB's not the reason we did well, how come our entire team suffered with the likes of Kordell and Maddox screwing things up? How come we jumped from 6-10 to 15-1? Clutch play by Ben. :D

Yeah he makes it sound like our Quarterback does nothing when the Steelers win, yet everyone says it's all his fault when the Steelers lose. I seem to recall Ben Saving our season in 2005 in the playoffs against the Colts when he tackled I think it was Nick Harper or something. If it wasn't for Ben, he would've went all the way for the touchdown and the win. Also if it's has nothing to do with the quarterback, then why did we lose soo many games because of Bubby Brister and Mark Malone? This guy is a joke. I guess Neil O'Donnell wasn't the reason we lost Superbowl 30 then either?

[Veteran Leadership]

So when Palmer does well, it's because he's a god, not because the other teams do poorly. TOOL! :D

Also, since our QB's not the reason we did well, how come our entire team suffered with the likes of Kordell and Maddox screwing things up? How come we jumped from 6-10 to 15-1? Clutch play by Ben. :D

When Palmer does well it's because he is making great throws, reading the defense, finding the open man and just flat out making good decisions. Palmer doesn't live off of his RB (in fact I think Rudi lives off of our passing game) and can do well when other teams are expecting the pass.

The reason you jumped to 15-1 was your entire team was better. Cowher went from being pass happy to running the ball more, and your defense played much better. I would figure that a steeler fan wouldn't need to be informed by a Bengals fan about his old team.:rotf::rotf:

[Veteran Leadership]

Yeah he makes it sound like our Quarterback does nothing when the Steelers win, yet everyone says it's all his fault when the Steelers lose. I seem to recall Ben Saving our season in 2005 in the playoffs against the Colts when he tackled I think it was Nick Harper or something. If it wasn't for Ben, he would've went all the way for the touchdown and the win. Also if it's has nothing to do with the quarterback, then why did we lose soo many games because of Bubby Brister and Mark Malone? This guy is a joke. I guess Neil O'Donnell wasn't the reason we lost Superbowl 30 then either?


I never said it was Ben's fault when the Steelers lose (although when they do his stat sheet is usually terrible which would be indicate that he had a large part in it) , I was just kind of showing you a little bit of reality. I guess it's hard to actually look at an entire situation as opposed to going "he is the QB on a team that does well, therefore he is really good". And wow, your QB tackled Nick Harper. When I think of a QB that I want the first thing that comes to mind isn't accuracy, it isn't arm strength, it isn't intelligence, it isn't field vision it's tackling. Yeah, you sure got me there.:what:

And it does have something to do with the QB, I never said it didn't, my post just went over your head. Here let me spell this out for you, you probably should take some notes. Your team runs the ball, and they run the ball well. Your team plays defense, and plays defense very well. Ben is asked to do a lot less then most other QB's in the game today. Quarterbacks like Manning, Brees, and Palmer are handed the ball and are asked to win the game. You probably could include Brady in this conversation I suppose. Ben....not so much. What does he actually do? He just hands the ball off, makes nice and easy throws and lives off of the play action. Yeah, that sure is an amazing QB right there. Have you ever seen Ben throw a deep pass? Do I really need to describe to you how terrible it is? When your team can basically run the ball down a teams throat at will and shut them down on defense your QB does not have to be all that great. Ben is just slightly above average, tell you what why dont you tell me what makes Ben so great, I need some laughs.

[SteelTorch]

When Palmer does well it's because he is making great throws, reading the defense, finding the open man and just flat out making good decisions. Palmer doesn't live off of his RB (in fact I think Rudi lives off of our passing game) and can do well when other teams are expecting the pass.

The reason you jumped to 15-1 was your entire team was better. Cowher went from being pass happy to running the ball more, and your defense played much better. I would figure that a steeler fan wouldn't need to be informed by a Bengals fan about his old team.:rotf::rotf:

Right, you said it yourself, Palmer does well because he's a God, Ben does well because the other team does poorly. I'll say it again: TOOL! :D

And you can't honestly tell me with a shred of credibility that Ben had nothing to do with it. He did. Even when we started "running the ball more", we still did poorly with Maddox throwing. Why? Because Ben helped turn our passing game around. 'Nuff said, you can crawl back to your home under the bridge now. ;)

[The Bat]

Call it luck or call it smart football minds..Having drafted Palmer who has shown an uncanny ability to find the open man and get the ball to him,,,,Yes that is what all QB's are supposed to do...but less than a handful can deliver that year in and year out. Even this Steeler fan can appreciate talent and ability even if it is one of our home teams inner Divisional rivals.
And for the last 3 years Palmer is the type of QB that is very consistant....granted he has superb wide outs but also he has off the field presence. Palmer is a "Class Act" on and off the field.

We have spent many a post debating the abilities of Big Ben...but could any fan reardless of their home team favorite question, a Palmer, or a Brady or a Manning starting for them???

and we get to see these guys apply their skills in our conferrence and /or Div...!!!!!
Well said :drunk2:

If only he had a defense......
If only you had something new to say... :rolleyes:

[Captain Obvious]

And wow, your QB tackled Nick Harper. When I think of a QB that I want the first thing that comes to mind isn't accuracy, it isn't arm strength, it isn't intelligence, it isn't field vision it's tackling. Yeah, you sure got me there.:what:


Man, talk about back tracking. You were making Ben out to be this horrible quarterback during the 2005 playoffs that had no bearing on the Steelers beating the Colts, when in fact I just proved you wrong. Let me spell it out again for you. Nick Harper wasrunning with the ball. The only player between him and the end zone was "Big" Ben. Ben tackled him, saving our season. So yes Ben did have a hand in them advancing. Did I say that a quarterback that can tackle is the most important thing to have? No. It's just that he single handedly saved the Steelers season with that tackle. So everything you say about him not having a hand in winning a game is owned. There are more instances where he won the game for us, but I don't feel like going into every game.

[The Bat]

Man, talk about back tracking. You were making Ben out to be this horrible quarterback during the 2005 playoffs that had no bearing on the Steelers beating the Colts, when in fact I just proved you wrong. Let me spell it out again for you. Nick Harper wasrunning with the ball. The only player between him and the end zone was "Big" Ben. Ben tackled him, saving our season. So yes Ben did have a hand in them advancing. Did I say that a quarterback that can tackle is the most important thing to have? No. It's just that he single handedly saved the Steelers season with that tackle. So everything you say about him not having a hand in winning a game is owned. There are more instances where he won the game for us, but I don't feel like going into every game.
Claiming ownership is the weakest smack of them all. Killed your whole post...
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/images/ShootingSelfInFoot.png

[Veteran Leadership]

Right, you said it yourself, Palmer does well because he's a God, Ben does well because the other team does poorly. I'll say it again: TOOL! :D

And you can't honestly tell me with a shred of credibility that Ben had nothing to do with it. He did. Even when we started "running the ball more", we still did poorly with Maddox throwing. Why? Because Ben helped turn our passing game around. 'Nuff said, you can crawl back to your home under the bridge now. ;)

Do you watch your own team? Like, seriously do you? How often do you see Ben do well on passes when the other team knows it's coming? How often do you see Palmer do well when other teams expect the pass? Since you have proved yourself to not be the brightest I will answer the questions for you (you can thank me later) rarely, and frequently.

Let me also enlighten you about when Ben's rookie year. After Maddox got hurt Ben was put in. They specifically talked about limiting his role, and having him be a game manager. Yeah, a game manager, because those have so much impact on the game. And here is the other thing that makes me laugh about your argument,"he did better then Maddux". Ok, do you celebrate when you do better on a test than the class idiot? Would you celebrate if you beat up a midget? Are you pleased that you type better than the Baltimore fans on this website? You did better without Maddox, congratulations. I'm still waiting to hear about what Big Ben does well as a passer?

[Veteran Leadership]

Man, talk about back tracking. You were making Ben out to be this horrible quarterback during the 2005 playoffs that had no bearing on the Steelers beating the Colts, when in fact I just proved you wrong. Let me spell it out again for you. Nick Harper wasrunning with the ball. The only player between him and the end zone was "Big" Ben. Ben tackled him, saving our season. So yes Ben did have a hand in them advancing. Did I say that a quarterback that can tackle is the most important thing to have? No. It's just that he single handedly saved the Steelers season with that tackle. So everything you say about him not having a hand in winning a game is owned. There are more instances where he won the game for us, but I don't feel like going into every game.

Think about this, the best thing you can come up with as far as Ben's impact in that game is him making a tackle. How bad is that? In other words maybe if his best moment as a QB is tackling player we would have more respect for him. Maybe if he was a better QB you would have been winning by a larger margin so he wouldn't be forced to show that he is a better linebacker then QB.:nervous:

[ikestops85]

Do you watch your own team? Like, seriously do you? How often do you see Ben do well on passes when the other team knows it's coming? How often do you see Palmer do well when other teams expect the pass? Since you have proved yourself to not be the brightest I will answer the questions for you (you can thank me later) rarely, and frequently.

Let me also enlighten you about when Ben's rookie year. After Maddox got hurt Ben was put in. They specifically talked about limiting his role, and having him be a game manager. Yeah, a game manager, because those have so much impact on the game. And here is the other thing that makes me laugh about your argument,"he did better then Maddux". Ok, do you celebrate when you do better on a test than the class idiot? Would you celebrate if you beat up a midget? Are you pleased that you type better than the Baltimore fans on this website? You did better without Maddox, congratulations. I'm still waiting to hear about what Big Ben does well as a passer?

Maybe you didn't hear but Ben has several games which he put up a perfect QB rating. Hpw many does Carson have??

Ben has also started to develop a reputation for 4th quarter comebacks. What about Carson??

[PastorJohnson85329]

Are you Steelers fans really tryin to convince yourselves you have a great QB. I will give Ben more credit then most will he is decent. But he does not compare to Carson. And I know its coming "well how many SB rings does he have. How man playoff wins does he have." Heres a stat for you. Big Ben threw 23 INTS last year right thats two less than Carson has thrown in the past two years. But I wont go any farther witht the stats im sure its all been brought up before. And as far as Ben leading your team to the SB. thats quite funny. what was his rating for those playoffs again. He is a decent qb like i stated but in my opinon not in the top ten.

[The Bat]

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/PHD/PHD529/200021811-001.jpg
Lets not turn this into ... you know what...

[Veteran Leadership]

Maybe you didn't hear but Ben has several games which he put up a perfect QB rating. Hpw many does Carson have??

Ben has also started to develop a reputation for 4th quarter comebacks. What about Carson??


And how many of those games was he doing anything else but throwing short passes and play action passes? Ben has a high QB rating every year (but last) because he doesnt throw the ball as much as other QBs, and for as far as having a reputation for 4th quarter comebacks when they talk about the clutch players on espn Ben's name doesnt come up.:(

[34inXXIII]

Maybe you didn't hear but Ben has several games which he put up a perfect QB rating. Hpw many does Carson have??

Ben has also started to develop a reputation for 4th quarter comebacks. What about Carson??
And by several, you obviously mean one - a scintillating performance on the opening week of the 2005 season that actually saw Roethlisberger put the ball in the air an amazing 11 times. Now, if you truly want a player with several games with a perfect passing rating, you need look no further than LaDainian Tomlinson. By this standard, he may be the best QB in the league.

As for 4th quarter comebacks, Roethlisberger has definitely done pretty well, although more than half of his 9 comebacks were in his rookie season. He's only had 4 in the 2 seasons since. Palmer's had 3 in that time period and 5 total.

[ikestops85]

Do you watch your own team? Like, seriously do you? How often do you see Ben do well on passes when the other team knows it's coming? How often do you see Palmer do well when other teams expect the pass? Since you have proved yourself to not be the brightest I will answer the questions for you (you can thank me later) rarely, and frequently.

Let me also enlighten you about when Ben's rookie year. After Maddox got hurt Ben was put in. They specifically talked about limiting his role, and having him be a game manager. Yeah, a game manager, because those have so much impact on the game. And here is the other thing that makes me laugh about your argument,"he did better then Maddux". Ok, do you celebrate when you do better on a test than the class idiot? Would you celebrate if you beat up a midget? Are you pleased that you type better than the Baltimore fans on this website? You did better without Maddox, congratulations. I'm still waiting to hear about what Big Ben does well as a passer?

And by several, you obviously mean one - a scintillating performance on the opening week of the 2005 season that actually saw Roethlisberger put the ball in the air an amazing 11 times. Now, if you truly want a player with several games with a perfect passing rating, you need look no further than LaDainian Tomlinson. By this standard, he may be the best QB in the league.

As for 4th quarter comebacks, Roethlisberger has definitely done pretty well, although more than half of his 9 comebacks were in his rookie season. He's only had 4 in the 2 seasons since. Palmer's had 3 in that time period and 5 total.

By several I did mean 2 although 1 of them wasn't a perfect qb rating ... it was a 153.8 instead of the 158.3 ... I know dyslexia. Although he did have another game with a 158.0 rating. I think all three qualify as accomplishments as a passer.

[Veteran Leadership]

By several I did mean 2 although 1 of them wasn't a perfect qb rating ... it was a 153.8 instead of the 158.3 ... I know dyslexia. Although he did have another game with a 158.0 rating. I think all three qualify as accomplishments as a passer.


So Ben's crowning achievement as a passer is three good games? That just proves my point Ike, you couldn't come out and talk about his accuracy, his arm strength, how many TDs he threw, his TD to INT ratio, or any of that aforementioned stuff. His highlight reels consist of a tackle and short easy passes. Ben is slightly above average.:homer:

[Shockwave]

Maybe you didn't hear but Ben has several games which he put up a perfect QB rating. Hpw many does Carson have??

Ben has also started to develop a reputation for 4th quarter comebacks. What about Carson??

What reputation?? I have never heard of said reputation.

[philhos]

By several I did mean 2 although 1 of them wasn't a perfect qb rating ... it was a 153.8 instead of the 158.3 ... I know dyslexia. Although he did have another game with a 158.0 rating. I think all three qualify as accomplishments as a passer.

Question: who currently holds the record for most consecutive games with a QB rating of at least 100?

[ikestops85]

So Ben's crowning achievement as a passer is three good games? That just proves my point Ike, you couldn't come out and talk about his accuracy, his arm strength, how many TDs he threw, his TD to INT ratio, or any of that aforementioned stuff. His highlight reels consist of a tackle and short easy passes. Ben is slightly above average.:homer:

Actually I could come out and talk about his accuracy and arm strength. I could also talk about his ypa ... Roethlisberger currently sports the highest career mark (8.3) of any QB in the history of the NFL. Joe Montana got 7.5. John Elway got 7.1. Dan Marino got 7.3.

So I'm not real sure where you get this short pass garbage ... one of the reasons Ben has so many interceptions is because he isn't afraid of throwing deep and aside from Ward our receivers don't agressively go after the ball. If the Steeler receiving corp was as good as the bengals then I think you would be singing a completely different tune about Ben.

[ikestops85]

What reputation?? I have never heard of said reputation.

You need to get out more

[ikestops85]

Question: who currently holds the record for most consecutive games with a QB rating of at least 100?

That would be Carson

[Veteran Leadership]

You need to get out more

Because you couldn't be wrong or anything....

[blkgld4lifer]

When Palmer does well it's because he is making great throws, reading the defense, finding the open man and just flat out making good decisions. Palmer doesn't live off of his RB (in fact I think Rudi lives off of our passing game) and can do well when other teams are expecting the pass.

The reason you jumped to 15-1 was your entire team was better. Cowher went from being pass happy to running the ball more, and your defense played much better. I would figure that a steeler fan wouldn't need to be informed by a Bengals fan about his old team.:rotf::rotf:

So is it safe to say that carson is successful because of the talent he has at wr in chad j., t.j, and chris henry. Carson wouldn't be nearly as good without those guys. As far as rudi benefitting from having carson in the lineup, hog wash, because rudi had proven himself to be a stud when carson was holding the clipboard his first season. If this team wants to go far, besides improving defensively, carson better rely on rudy to control the game clock and help the bengals win or carson will go down as another dan fouts. Great stats but no post season success.

[Joe from Florence]

So is it safe to say that carson is successful because of the talent he has at wr in chad j., t.j, and chris henry. Carson wouldn't be nearly as good without those guys. As far as rudi benefitting from having carson in the lineup, hog wash, because rudi had proven himself to be a stud when carson was holding the clipboard his first season. If this team wants to go far, besides improving defensively, carson better rely on rudy to control the game clock and help the bengals win or carson will go down as another dan fouts. Great stats but no post season success.
Oh i beg to differ about the recievers

the same recievers were here before Carson except for Henry....they only had 1 guy have 1 good season until Carson took over and that is Chad.

Sorry, but Carson would be good on any team with any recievers.....sometimes you jsut have to admit when a player is special and elite. Trust me, Carson would be great on the steelers too with their horrible recievers :excited:

[Joe from Florence]

Actually I could come out and talk about his accuracy and arm strength. I could also talk about his ypa ... Roethlisberger currently sports the highest career mark (8.3) of any QB in the history of the NFL. Joe Montana got 7.5. John Elway got 7.1. Dan Marino got 7.3.

So I'm not real sure where you get this short pass garbage ... one of the reasons Ben has so many interceptions is because he isn't afraid of throwing deep and aside from Ward our receivers don't agressively go after the ball. If the Steeler receiving corp was as good as the bengals then I think you would be singing a completely different tune about Ben.
Ummmm....hate to do this to you (ok i really don't lol) But your wrong about the ypa thing. Ben doesn't have the highest career mark for YPA. Actually a former Bengals QB has a higher one..... Greg cook who Bill Walsh said if he hadn't gotten hurt would of been the best ever.....he has a career YPA of 9.3

oh and you all talk about how great of a runner Ben is....did you also know that Greg cook averaged 6 yards a carry? That is compared to Bens 2 yards per carry

And as we're talking about QB's and their ypa...did you know Kenny Anderson had a higher career ypa than any of the two you named in Elway and Montana, as well as Marino? not only that but Anderson had a higher ypa than all these HOF'ers: Len Dawson, D fouts, Sonny Jurgensen, Roger Staubach, B. Griese, B. Starr, J. Namath, T. Bradshaw. Out of every QB in the HOF who started their career after 1950 there are only 2 HOF'ers with a higher YPA than Ken Anderson...those two are F. Tarkenton and J. Unitas.....just some interesting facts since you want to throw out the ypa thing

sorry but it is fun correcting a steeler fan when they get their facts wrong

Now to put even more of a damper on your claim....do you know ypa really doesn't tell anyone anything?
because it has nothing to do with how far downfield a qb completes his passes. Let me explain,
In your teams last pre season game Ben threw for 247 yards......when you watch the game, and double check by going to nfl.com play by play for that game you realize your initial thoughts about ben in that game were true.....Ben completed all but 2 of his passes with short dump and screen passes.....those are the throws he didn't even throw over 5 yards. He only attempted 4 long passes (over 10 yards) and completed only half of them at 2.

Now that you have that understanding, do you want to take a guess at what ben's ypa was that game? Lets see, he completed 13 passes, 11 of those passes were 5 yards or shorter (actual pass itself) but he threw for 247....his ypa was 9.14 yards an attempt. Now are you really thinking he averaged throwing the ball that far down the field every pass? actually only about 10% of his passes were that far while 90% of his passes were thrown shorter.

Thats why ypa really doesn't mean squat

[Rayne]

Oh i beg to differ about the recievers

the same recievers were here before Carson except for Henry....they only had 1 guy have 1 good season until Carson took over and that is Chad.

Sorry, but Carson would be good on any team with any recievers.....sometimes you jsut have to admit when a player is special and elite. Trust me, Carson would be great on the steelers too with their horrible recievers :excited:

Disagree.

Carson would still be Carson, true. He's still just as talented no matter where he is....BUT

Imagine Carson on the Houston Texans...do you really think he could throw for over 4000 yards a year with those guys? Especially behind that Oline? No running game? (They were ranked 21st last year in that respect).

I don't.

Carr was not a bad QB, he just had a bad running game, no Oline and no defense.

I think Carson would be running for his life on every play.

[twiztdperson]

So is it safe to say that carson is successful because of the talent he has at wr in chad j., t.j, and chris henry. Carson wouldn't be nearly as good without those guys. As far as rudi benefitting from having carson in the lineup, hog wash, because rudi had proven himself to be a stud when carson was holding the clipboard his first season. If this team wants to go far, besides improving defensively, carson better rely on rudy to control the game clock and help the bengals win or carson will go down as another dan fouts. Great stats but no post season success.

Let him get there without his knee getting destroyed before classifying him as Dan Fouts.

[Joe from Florence]

Disagree.

Carson would still be Carson, true. He's still just as talented no matter where he is....BUT

Imagine Carson on the Houston Texans...do you really think he could throw for over 4000 yards a year with those guys? Especially behind that Oline? No running game? (They were ranked 21st last year in that respect).

I don't.

Carr was not a bad QB, he just had a bad running game, no Oline and no defense.

I think Carson would be running for his life on every play.
Seeing how Andre johnson is one of the best recievers in the game...yes i do. David Carr's biggest problem wasn't that he had a horrible line, it was more of him holding onto the ball too long.

do you realize Andre johnson out of 4 years playing has had 3 1000 yard seasons? well sorry he had 2 he fell short last year by 25 yards...so if you take his actual numbers he has averaged over 988 yards every season he's played.

Plus you forget that last year Carson was running for his life every play....he only had 1 starter on his line the entire year and still had over 4000 yards passing...the most he's ever had with a banged up line made up of first time starters and also recovering from major knee surgery

Also do you realize that Matt Schaub who took Carr's place this year has over 72% compl % thus far in 3 pre season games and has thrown for 242 yards and a Rating of 113.4

So i believe it is the qb and not all the lines fault.

[Joe from Florence]

man i missed the smack forum....i'm at home here.....one topic and 2 steeler fans proven wrong once again...lol....I LOVE THIS PLACE!!!!

[CatKiller]

Quarterbacks like Manning, Brees, and Palmer are handed the ball and are asked to win the game. You probably could include Brady in this conversation I suppose.

So tell me, how has that worked out for you guys?

[Veteran Leadership]

So tell me, how has that worked out for you guys?

Considering that Palmer has almost always put us in positions to win and it is either the special teams or the defense that fails actually pretty good.

[Veteran Leadership]

Disagree.

Carson would still be Carson, true. He's still just as talented no matter where he is....BUT

Imagine Carson on the Houston Texans...do you really think he could throw for over 4000 yards a year with those guys? Especially behind that Oline? No running game? (They were ranked 21st last year in that respect).

I don't.

Carr was not a bad QB, he just had a bad running game, no Oline and no defense.

I think Carson would be running for his life on every play.

The issue is that put Manning on that line, then put Brady, then put Brees, then put all the other Qbs on that line Ghost. Manning, Palmer, Brady and Brees would still outperform everyone else. Palmer would do better then just about everyone in the league barring Manning.

[doctorhook18]

That would be Carson

Who cares.....average it for an entire season then we will talk!

Manning holds that record 121 for a season (2004).....and has averaged over 100 for the last 3 seasons!

[Veteran Leadership]

Who cares.....average it for an entire season then we will talk!

Manning holds that record 121 for a season (2004).....and has averaged over 100 for the last 3 seasons!

You must not do so well with the whole "what is this thread about" thing do you?

[Rayne]

Seeing how Andre johnson is one of the best recievers in the game...yes i do. David Carr's biggest problem wasn't that he had a horrible line, it was more of him holding onto the ball too long.

do you realize Andre johnson out of 4 years playing has had 3 1000 yard seasons? well sorry he had 2 he fell short last year by 25 yards...so if you take his actual numbers he has averaged over 988 yards every season he's played.

Plus you forget that last year Carson was running for his life every play....he only had 1 starter on his line the entire year and still had over 4000 yards passing...the most he's ever had with a banged up line made up of first time starters and also recovering from major knee surgery

Also do you realize that Matt Schaub who took Carr's place this year has over 72% compl % thus far in 3 pre season games and has thrown for 242 yards and a Rating of 113.4

So i believe it is the qb and not all the lines fault.

But he still needs TIME, Joe.

I assume you saw the play last night where Harrington dropped back and your guys got him before he even took his last step.

You have to admit that, part of Carson's success can be attributed to the fact that he has one of the best pass blocking Olines in football. Otherwise, how could you measure the success of Olines? Last I checked, it's a team effort out there. Carson needs guys to protect him, and - believe it or not - he needs the WR to hold onto the ball.

This may come as a shock to you, but even Carson Palmer fails if the WR drops the ball on the ground.

Carson's talented - I've said that before and I'll say that again. I'm an honest man and try to be fair all the way around. You know that. Carson's one of the top 3 in the NFL - but as good as he is, even HE needs the other 11 guys. Without them, he fails.

It starts with the 5 big uglies upfront, and the TE makes 6. They protect him. I've even seen the RB and FB get involved picking up a blitz. He needs time to throw, and he needs the other guys to catch it.

There's no doubt in my mind that the foundation of our 4 rings in the 70's started with Mike Webster at Center.

I'm not saying it's all the Oline....I'm saying that without them, he doesn't have time to throw and would therefore would be sacked more, and/or throw more picks - thus dropping his numbers and effectiveness as a QB. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

Otherwise, what you're saying is that ALL sacks are the fault of the QB - regardless of the time he had to throw. I realize that's the way the NFL scores it - but I've always believed that's wrong.

If the QB drops back and the D sacks him before he even sets his back foot - how is that on the QB?

I also realize that Matt Schuab took Carr's place this year - but do YOU realize that it's just the preseason?

Sorry, Joe.....knowing how you feel about the preseason, I can't let you praise Carr's replacement based upon PRESEASON performance.

[CatKiller]

Ummmm....hate to do this to you (ok i really don't lol) But your wrong about the ypa thing. Ben doesn't have the highest career mark for YPA. Actually a former Bengals QB has a higher one..... Greg cook who Bill Walsh said if he hadn't gotten hurt would of been the best ever.....he has a career YPA of 9.3

oh and you all talk about how great of a runner Ben is....did you also know that Greg cook averaged 6 yards a carry? That is compared to Bens 2 yards per carry

And as we're talking about QB's and their ypa...did you know Kenny Anderson had a higher career ypa than any of the two you named in Elway and Montana, as well as Marino? not only that but Anderson had a higher ypa than all these HOF'ers: Len Dawson, D fouts, Sonny Jurgensen, Roger Staubach, B. Griese, B. Starr, J. Namath, T. Bradshaw. Out of every QB in the HOF who started their career after 1950 there are only 2 HOF'ers with a higher YPA than Ken Anderson...those two are F. Tarkenton and J. Unitas.....just some interesting facts since you want to throw out the ypa thing


This will be fun. I don't know where you get your stats from, but your very own site has some.
Ken Anderson 32,838 yards 4,475 att. 7.34 ypa

And you can go to this site http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1562 and see a nice little chart about half way down the page with several of the Qbs you listed on it with their career YPA.(top 15) Guess who's not on it?

If you said Ken Anderson you would be correct

And come on Joe, Greg Cook??? He's not on the list either by the way. Want to know why? Because he played ONE stinkin season and threw 3 whole passes in the only game of his second season, for a whopping 107 "career" completions and 200 "career" attempts. It's always woulda coulda shoulda with you guys. Don't you get tired of it?

SCHOOLED!!!

[doctorhook18]

You must not do so well with the whole "what is this thread about" thing do you?


Whatever NOOB!

That was a response to one of your fellow Bengal fans talking about Carson's record for consecutive 100 rating games. PAY ATTENTION!

[ikestops85]

Ummmm....hate to do this to you (ok i really don't lol) But your wrong about the ypa thing. Ben doesn't have the highest career mark for YPA. Actually a former Bengals QB has a higher one..... Greg cook who Bill Walsh said if he hadn't gotten hurt would of been the best ever.....he has a career YPA of 9.3

oh and you all talk about how great of a runner Ben is....did you also know that Greg cook averaged 6 yards a carry? That is compared to Bens 2 yards per carry

And as we're talking about QB's and their ypa...did you know Kenny Anderson had a higher career ypa than any of the two you named in Elway and Montana, as well as Marino? not only that but Anderson had a higher ypa than all these HOF'ers: Len Dawson, D fouts, Sonny Jurgensen, Roger Staubach, B. Griese, B. Starr, J. Namath, T. Bradshaw. Out of every QB in the HOF who started their career after 1950 there are only 2 HOF'ers with a higher YPA than Ken Anderson...those two are F. Tarkenton and J. Unitas.....just some interesting facts since you want to throw out the ypa thing

sorry but it is fun correcting a steeler fan when they get their facts wrong

Now to put even more of a damper on your claim....do you know ypa really doesn't tell anyone anything?
because it has nothing to do with how far downfield a qb completes his passes. Let me explain,
In your teams last pre season game Ben threw for 247 yards......when you watch the game, and double check by going to nfl.com play by play for that game you realize your initial thoughts about ben in that game were true.....Ben completed all but 2 of his passes with short dump and screen passes.....those are the throws he didn't even throw over 5 yards. He only attempted 4 long passes (over 10 yards) and completed only half of them at 2.

Now that you have that understanding, do you want to take a guess at what ben's ypa was that game? Lets see, he completed 13 passes, 11 of those passes were 5 yards or shorter (actual pass itself) but he threw for 247....his ypa was 9.14 yards an attempt. Now are you really thinking he averaged throwing the ball that far down the field every pass? actually only about 10% of his passes were that far while 90% of his passes were thrown shorter.

Thats why ypa really doesn't mean squat

Well Joe I LOVE to do this to you but first I have to eat some crow. Ben doesn't have the highest career ypa. He has the highest career ypa of ACTIVE players. Overall he falls behind HOFers Otto Graham and Sid Luckman. All Time YPA Leaders (http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1562)

Now for the fun part ... I agree that Kenny Anderson was a very good QB but he was the master of the dump pass so I know his ypa cannot be higher than all those QBs that you mentioned. So let's take a look

Anderson - 7.3
Elway - 7.1
Montana - 7.5
Len Dawson - 7.67
D fouts - 7.7
Sonny Jurgensen - 7.6
Roger Staubach - 7.67
Bob Griese - 7.3
B. Starr - 7.85
J. Namath - 7.4
T. Bradshaw. - 7.2
F Tarkenton - 7.3
Johnny Unitas - 7.8

Well ... you were right on 2 out of the 10 you named. Just some interesting facts that you might want to get correct before throwing out that ypa thing. YPA Source (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/qbindex.htm)

and while we are talking about that ypa thing which you say "doesn't mean squat". I think some reputable publications have done some analysis on this which showed that ypa was an all-important Quality Stat. Here are some accomplishments of the top 15 all time leaders in ypa


1) All but contemporary quarterbacks Bulger and Culpepper suited up for at least one NFL championship game or Super Bowl.
2) These 15 all-time YPA leaders won 23 championships.
3) 7 of the 10 retired YPA leaders are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
4) Young, No. 6 on the list, is No. 1 all-time in passer rating (96.8).
5) Starr, No. 8 on the list, is the only quarterback to lead his team to five NFL championships.

Yes Joe ... it feels pretty good

[Veteran Leadership]

Whatever NOOB!

That was a response to one of your fellow Bengal fans talking about Carson's record for consecutive 100 rating games. PAY ATTENTION!


Yes, because Manning is so relevant in the discussion that was taking place.:rolleyes: Quick call me a noob again, that way you won't give me advice that your stupid arse needs to follow.:rotf::rotf::rotf:

[Veteran Leadership]

Ike, Ben is terrible on deep long passes, I have seen enough Steeler games to figure that one out, how exactly do you think his YPA is so high? It couldn't be because he hits guys for five yard passes a ton and then they catch and run the ball for three or four more yards? I wish they kept track the distance the pass was thrown when caught, it would clearly do a better job then what YPA tries to do.

[Steely_J]

Ike, Ben is terrible on deep long passes, I have seen enough Steeler games to figure that one out, how exactly do you think his YPA is so high? It couldn't be because he hits guys for five yard passes a ton and then they catch and run the ball for three or four more yards? I wish they kept track the distance the pass was thrown when caught, it would clearly do a better job then what YPA tries to do.

I don't understand why so many Bengals fans are against yards after the catch. What's the deal? Is the WR supposed to fall down as soon as he catches the ball? I love having versitle guys that will cut and run through a defense after the catch.

It's called being well rounded...

[Veteran Leadership]

I don't understand why so many Bengals fans are against yards after the catch. What's the deal? Is the WR supposed to fall down as soon as he catches the ball? I love having versitle guys that will cut and run through a defense after the catch.

It's called being well rounded...

I am not saying that yards after the catch is bad, or that the steeler WR's shouldn't do it, but when you look at what it as far as the QB stand point it jacks up what he actually did do. After the WR catches the ball the QB is kinda well out of the picture, it gives QB's more credit then they should get. And before anyone tries to beat me to the punch, yes I think that the yards a QB throws for should only reflect where the ball was caught, and yes I realize that Palmer gets some of those yards to, it's just obvious that Ben benefits from that more then Palmer. Basically it makes him look a lot better then he actually is.

[ikestops85]

I am not saying that yards after the catch is bad, or that the steeler WR's shouldn't do it, but when you look at what it as far as the QB stand point it jacks up what he actually did do. After the WR catches the ball the QB is kinda well out of the picture, it gives QB's more credit then they should get. And before anyone tries to beat me to the punch, yes I think that the yards a QB throws for should only reflect where the ball was caught, and yes I realize that Palmer gets some of those yards to, it's just obvious that Ben benefits from that more then Palmer. Basically it makes him look a lot better then he actually is.

So Ben hitting the open receiver who has space and can get YAC makes Ben a not so good QB. It seems to me to be the smart thing to do ... I think a guy by the name of Joe Montana used to do that quite often and a guy by the name of Rice would take it to the house.

Joe ... don't get all bent out of shape. I am not calling Ben as good a QB as Montana. I was just giving an example.

[Veteran Leadership]

So Ben hitting the open receiver who has space and can get YAC makes Ben a not so good QB. It seems to me to be the smart thing to do ... I think a guy by the name of Joe Montana used to do that quite often and a guy by the name of Rice would take it to the house.

Joe ... don't get all bent out of shape. I am not calling Ben as good a QB as Montana. I was just giving an example.

No, that isn't what I said. The Steelers always seem to have guys who can get YAC, all I said is that it makes him look better then he really is. The difference is that Montana would at least hit him twenty yards down the field before that happened, as opposed to Ben hitting Ward for 5 yards and then Ward running 10 yards down the field. Him doing that doesn't represent what he does accurately, it is misleading, and quite frankly it makes him look better then he is.

[blkgld4lifer]

Oh i beg to differ about the recievers

the same recievers were here before Carson except for Henry....they only had 1 guy have 1 good season until Carson took over and that is Chad.

Sorry, but Carson would be good on any team with any recievers.....sometimes you jsut have to admit when a player is special and elite. Trust me, Carson would be great on the steelers too with their horrible recievers :excited:

What is elite about carson? He is a good qb. To be an elite qb you have to have more than just fantasy football numbers. You actually have to win particularly in the post season. That is what seperate the men from the boys. Now if the steelers have horrible receivers, what are you saying about your defensive backs. You certainly know who hines ward is even though you refuse to give credit. I also have a feeling you will get to know a lot about santonio holmes, the receiver whom some bengal fans claim was not as good as chad jackson, yeah picture that. Oops i almost forgot you already know who santonio is, he is the receiver that ended your postseason hopes last season.

[blkgld4lifer]

I don't understand why so many Bengals fans are against yards after the catch. What's the deal? Is the WR supposed to fall down as soon as he catches the ball? I love having versitle guys that will cut and run through a defense after the catch.

It's called being well rounded...

Now you talk about an oxymoron. Now in one sentence the bengals fans are talking about how weak the steelers receiving core is, but in another sentence to keep from giving big ben any credit, they are saying the steelers have good receivers who get YAC that actually makes big ben look better than he actually is. Now which is it bengal fans.
Can one of my fellow steeler fans help explain this?

[Joe from Florence]

What is elite about carson? He is a good qb. To be an elite qb you have to have more than just fantasy football numbers. You actually have to win particularly in the post season.
that may be one of the dumbest things i ever heard you say on here.....and that is saying something.

since when does being an elite QB or any player for that matter mean the TEAM has to win something in the post season???????? Don't you understand the meaning of a team yet?????

Jaws said it best last night when tony cornhole said "he didn't win any championships yet" and Jaws pointed out that, that is what a good team does and has nothing to do with how good a qb is. Dan Marino didn't win anything so your saying he was not an elite qb? Dan Fouts didn't win anything, so are you saying he wasn't an elite qb? Barry Sanders didn't win anything, so are you saying he wasn't an elite RB? The best offensive lineman to ever play the game never won a SB so are you saying anthony Munoz wasn't an elite lineman?

seriously, that was a pretty dumb statement you made. So according to you the great LB's you all had in the 90's were actually horrible because they didn't win anything?

duh...learn what a team concept actually means then you can chime in again.....until then don't drop the iq of these boards with your silly posts

[Joe from Florence]

So Ben hitting the open receiver who has space and can get YAC makes Ben a not so good QB. It seems to me to be the smart thing to do ... I think a guy by the name of Joe Montana used to do that quite often and a guy by the name of Rice would take it to the house.

Joe ... don't get all bent out of shape. I am not calling Ben as good a QB as Montana. I was just giving an example.
No i never said that...what i said is YAC yards aren't really a measuring tape of what a qb can do......Ben has great ypa because of the yac yards his recievers get....we went over this last year remember? Pitt was in the top 5 or so of all NFL teams with yac yards and when we broke it all down taking away the yac yards with the passing yards it showed ben averaged around 5 yards a throw.......thats why ypc is just not that great of a measuring stick if your talking about how good a qb is. A great qb by the so called experts is the ones who complete a high percentage of passes and is able to make all the throws.....not just a couple throws. Thats what put Marino and Elway apart from the rest of the qb's in the league in the late 80's and 90's....they could make every throw wether it be deep, short, out patterns, slants whatever, they cvould make the toughet throws. That is why the same so called experts say Carson is an elite qb, not only because he has a high compl % or a ton of yards or a good TD to INT ratio, but because he can make all the throws in the book.

Ben is a great game manager, but as we all know he isn't one who is capable yet to make all the throws and is very succesful when he can stay with the short passes. As it was shown in the last pre-season game. out of 27 passes only 4 were thrown 10 yards or more. Out of 13 completions only 2 were out of that 4 while 11 were short passes. Thats all there is to it, it's the same thing he was succesful at in 04 and 05, but last year when he had to throw deep he was very unsuccesful, thats all. It's not a bad thing, he jujst needs to play within himswelf and not try to be someone he isn't. Thats all.

Ben is a good qb for a good team, nothing to be ashamed about....he just isn't an elite qb and i dno't think ever will be.

[Steely_J]

I am not saying that yards after the catch is bad, or that the steeler WR's shouldn't do it, but when you look at what it as far as the QB stand point it jacks up what he actually did do. After the WR catches the ball the QB is kinda well out of the picture, it gives QB's more credit then they should get. And before anyone tries to beat me to the punch, yes I think that the yards a QB throws for should only reflect where the ball was caught, and yes I realize that Palmer gets some of those yards to, it's just obvious that Ben benefits from that more then Palmer. Basically it makes him look a lot better then he actually is.


I don't see that as jacking up what the QB did do. The QB's job is to control the tempo of the offense, and get the ball into the hands of the playmakers. If your QB has a man deep that he may or may not hit, or a man 10yds away that he can hit and have him run for another 15, ... and he launches it down field and misses, what are you gonna say? Something like "idiot! you had a playmaker 10 yds away and a guaranteed 1st down!"

You can't fault Ben and say he's not a good QB for taking advantage of open players.

The conflict here is that Bengals fans are trying to say "Deep passes = better QB" and Steeler fans are trying to say "smart passes = better QB"

Well IMO you have to mix both and be a little lucky along the way. Is Ben better because he has successful short passes and screens? Is Carson better because he can thread a needle in the upper deck? They're both very good QB's because they tend to gravitate towards what helps them win games.

The stats aren't skewed. A pass is a pass, and a yard is a yard. You guys prefer to say Carson's better because he has a great deep ball. Well yes,.. he has a better deep ball than Ben. And if that's all you look at when it comes to QB's, then so be it. But to deny Bens talent because his deep ball isn't as good as Carsons is pretty dumb. Yeah it's not good as Carson's (right now) but that doesn't mean he never lands them, or has success with them. He's had several games where they've been the highlight.

[blkgld4lifer]

that may be one of the dumbest things i ever heard you say on here.....and that is saying something.

since when does being an elite QB or any player for that matter mean the TEAM has to win something in the post season???????? Don't you understand the meaning of a team yet?????

Jaws said it best last night when tony cornhole said "he didn't win any championships yet" and Jaws pointed out that, that is what a good team does and has nothing to do with how good a qb is. Dan Marino didn't win anything so your saying he was not an elite qb? Dan Fouts didn't win anything, so are you saying he wasn't an elite qb? Barry Sanders didn't win anything, so are you saying he wasn't an elite RB? The best offensive lineman to ever play the game never won a SB so are you saying anthony Munoz wasn't an elite lineman?

seriously, that was a pretty dumb statement you made. So according to you the great LB's you all had in the 90's were actually horrible because they didn't win anything?

duh...learn what a team concept actually means then you can chime in again.....until then don't drop the iq of these boards with your silly posts

Relax dude. This is just my point. I have said time and time again carson is a good qb. I didn't try to imply that you have to win a championship to be considered an elite qb. But you bengal fans are all over carson's jock and the guy has a body of work of only 3 seasons in the league and you have already got him in canton. Get the heck out of here. You can't compare carson's body of work to dan marino or dan fouts because they did it a number of years. Some of you have put carson ahead of peyton manning and that is ridiculous. Believe me i know what the concept of team is. If you knew what the concept of team was, you wouldn't constantly start threads saying what makes carson so special. Chad Johnson is a great player. Willie Anderson is a great player. Rudi Johnson is a nice player to watch who doesn't get the credit he deserves. It seems to me that you root for the carson palmer bengals and not the cincinnati bengals. I am open to any challenge you may have as far as what the term team concept means. I probably can tell you more about your football team than you can.

[Joe from Florence]

But he still needs TIME, Joe.

I assume you saw the play last night where Harrington dropped back and your guys got him before he even took his last step.

You have to admit that, part of Carson's success can be attributed to the fact that he has one of the best pass blocking Olines in football. Otherwise, how could you measure the success of Olines? Last I checked, it's a team effort out there. Carson needs guys to protect him, and - believe it or not - he needs the WR to hold onto the ball.

This may come as a shock to you, but even Carson Palmer fails if the WR drops the ball on the ground.

Carson's talented - I've said that before and I'll say that again. I'm an honest man and try to be fair all the way around. You know that. Carson's one of the top 3 in the NFL - but as good as he is, even HE needs the other 11 guys. Without them, he fails.

It starts with the 5 big uglies upfront, and the TE makes 6. They protect him. I've even seen the RB and FB get involved picking up a blitz. He needs time to throw, and he needs the other guys to catch it.

There's no doubt in my mind that the foundation of our 4 rings in the 70's started with Mike Webster at Center.

I'm not saying it's all the Oline....I'm saying that without them, he doesn't have time to throw and would therefore would be sacked more, and/or throw more picks - thus dropping his numbers and effectiveness as a QB. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

Otherwise, what you're saying is that ALL sacks are the fault of the QB - regardless of the time he had to throw. I realize that's the way the NFL scores it - but I've always believed that's wrong.

If the QB drops back and the D sacks him before he even sets his back foot - how is that on the QB?

I also realize that Matt Schuab took Carr's place this year - but do YOU realize that it's just the preseason?

Sorry, Joe.....knowing how you feel about the preseason, I can't let you praise Carr's replacement based upon PRESEASON performance.
Of course the line will make a difference, but in Carr's case it isn't exactley the reason he failed. Listen to anyone the last couple years announcing texans games and allthe espn so called experts and nfl network folks all have said the same thing, and that is that David Carr had a bad habbit of holding onto the ball too long. Carson had a great line in 05....he had a horrible line in 06 and the number of sacks which was double from the previous year should show you that.

So i showed you what Matt Schaub was doing with David Carr's o-line, now let me show you what David Carr is doing this year.....he's already been sacked 4 times in only 3 games (isn't that the track he was on with houston thru his entire career?) he has a rating of 86 with 1 td and 1 int in a total of 3 games. And last i checked the panthers had a decent line....much better than what the texans have had according to people who say Carr's problem was with his o-line. David Carr is David Carr.....you could put him behind the best o-line out there and he wouldn't come close to what a great qb can do.
So what's David's excue going to be this year? his line? seems to me for a guy who has only had 32 pass attenmpts in the pre-season and has gotten sacked 4 times already which averages out to more than 1 sack every 10 attempts may need to look at himself to figure out whats wrong.

Now you want to talk about a bad o-line.....look at what carson is playing behind this pre season so far....both his starting tackles have been out every game thus far, we all know Carson isn't the most mobile qb in the league....and he has thrown almost double the passes as David Carr has and has gotten sacked only 3 times. So maybe it isn't Davi'd line....as Matt Schaub is proving as we speak, but maybe david Carr himself.

[Bengals_9]

ya i agree with ya joe

[Joe from Florence]

This will be fun. I don't know where you get your stats from, but your very own site has some.
Ken Anderson 32,838 yards 4,475 att. 7.34 ypa

And you can go to this site http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1562 and see a nice little chart about half way down the page with several of the Qbs you listed on it with their career YPA.(top 15) Guess who's not on it?

If you said Ken Anderson you would be correct

And come on Joe, Greg Cook??? He's not on the list either by the way. Want to know why? Because he played ONE stinkin season and threw 3 whole passes in the only game of his second season, for a whopping 107 "career" completions and 200 "career" attempts. It's always woulda coulda shoulda with you guys. Don't you get tired of it?

SCHOOLED!!!
Schooled??? I think not. Read the post i was responding to, i only pointed out the fact that the statement that Ben has the highest ypa for any qb for his career was wrong. The funny thing is, i didn't even have to do any type of research to find someone....I already knew from the top of my head that Greg Cook had a higher one. so what he only played 2 years....Ben has only played 3 years....so if your disqualifying cook i guess you need to disqualify ben until ben plays 15 years.

and where id i lie about anderson?
I never lied or made up anything.....here my friend is where i got the info from
Hall of Fame Quarterbacks 1950-1990, and Ken AndersonPassRushPassTotalTopNameYearsCplAttCPctYar dsYPATDINTVOAPARPARPAR100*TitlesF. Tarkenton1961-19785689863765.9%641497.4343620827.0%681484155260J . Unitas1956-19734682733763.8%559327.6236319823.5%151165118033K . Anderson1971-19863797574466.1%437957.6227013229.2%491061111040L . Dawson1957-19753302474569.6%377957.9627812937.5%111029104042D . Fouts1973-19874176650264.2%510167.8531219723.1%-51024102040S. Jurgensen1957-19743725563166.1%423247.5230514727.7%-198498320R. Staubach1969-19792567393865.2%320288.132219036.7%4784889542B. Griese1967-19802998456265.7%351657.7127013627.7%678879402B. Starr1956-19712917437166.7%332857.6118010726.6%2277279415J. Namath1965-19772997493560.7%382557.7522617112.8%-456556221T. Bradshaw1970-19832963508258.3%375997.4029517410.3%4349954214*Nu mber of seasons listed among the Top 100 QB Seasons (1960-2004) in PFP 2005.
VOA and PAR numbers are approximations.

Anderson’s conventional accomplishments are good, but he really stands out when we put him in the context of his era. The table above shows every Hall of Fame quarterback whose career began after 1950 and ended before 1990. It has their era-adjusted career statistics as well as their approximate rush PAR, pass PAR and pass VOA. There are 11 Hall of Fame quarterbacks plus Anderson.
It is easy to see why many regard Johnny Unitas as the greatest quarterback of all time. He has excellent numbers overall, as well as three titles and five top 100 seasons. Fran Tarkenton is the only guy with better numbers than Unitas, but his failure to win a title has left him on the outside looking in when it comes to best QB of all time debates. It seems that in this regard Tarkenton is very similar to Peyton Manning and Dan Marino.
Anderson ranks third in total PAR. He also ranks third in passing VOA. He ranks ahead of Dan Fouts, Sonny Jurgensen, Bob Griese, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw and Joe Namath in both total PAR and passing VOA. This means Anderson both accomplished more in total over the course of his career and was a more efficient passer than all these players.
In the cases of Starr, Bradshaw, Namath, and Griese it is clear they did not get into the Hall of Fame because of their statistics; they got in because they won Super Bowls, made guarantees, and went undefeated. The point of comparing Anderson to them is not to say that because they are in, he should be in. It is simply to establish that Anderson’s career statistics are far above the minimum threshold for a Hall of Fame quarterback. The table clearly shows that if statistics alone were the measure of a quarterback’s greatness, Anderson would be mentioned among the greatest of all time.

here is the link
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/07/26/ramblings/stat-analysis/4042/

my personal favorite paragraph is the one i placed in bold for you

[The Bat]

ya i agree with ya joe
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/648979/2/istockphoto_648979_butt_kisser.jpg

[Steely_J]

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/648979/2/istockphoto_648979_butt_kisser.jpg

hehehehe

[ikestops85]

Schooled??? I think not. Read the post i was responding to, i only pointed out the fact that the statement that Ben has the highest ypa for any qb for his career was wrong. The funny thing is, i didn't even have to do any type of research to find someone....I already knew from the top of my head that Greg Cook had a higher one. so what he only played 2 years....Ben has only played 3 years....so if your disqualifying cook i guess you need to disqualify ben until ben plays 15 years.

and where id i lie about anderson?
I never lied or made up anything.....here my friend is where i got the info from
Hall of Fame Quarterbacks 1950-1990, and Ken AndersonPassRushPassTotalTopNameYearsCplAttCPctYar dsYPATDINTVOAPARPARPAR100*TitlesF. Tarkenton1961-19785689863765.9%641497.4343620827.0%681484155260J . Unitas1956-19734682733763.8%559327.6236319823.5%151165118033K . Anderson1971-19863797574466.1%437957.6227013229.2%491061111040L . Dawson1957-19753302474569.6%377957.9627812937.5%111029104042D . Fouts1973-19874176650264.2%510167.8531219723.1%-51024102040S. Jurgensen1957-19743725563166.1%423247.5230514727.7%-198498320R. Staubach1969-19792567393865.2%320288.132219036.7%4784889542B. Griese1967-19802998456265.7%351657.7127013627.7%678879402B. Starr1956-19712917437166.7%332857.6118010726.6%2277279415J. Namath1965-19772997493560.7%382557.7522617112.8%-456556221T. Bradshaw1970-19832963508258.3%375997.4029517410.3%4349954214*Nu mber of seasons listed among the Top 100 QB Seasons (1960-2004) in PFP 2005.
VOA and PAR numbers are approximations.

Anderson’s conventional accomplishments are good, but he really stands out when we put him in the context of his era. The table above shows every Hall of Fame quarterback whose career began after 1950 and ended before 1990. It has their era-adjusted career statistics as well as their approximate rush PAR, pass PAR and pass VOA. There are 11 Hall of Fame quarterbacks plus Anderson.
It is easy to see why many regard Johnny Unitas as the greatest quarterback of all time. He has excellent numbers overall, as well as three titles and five top 100 seasons. Fran Tarkenton is the only guy with better numbers than Unitas, but his failure to win a title has left him on the outside looking in when it comes to best QB of all time debates. It seems that in this regard Tarkenton is very similar to Peyton Manning and Dan Marino.
Anderson ranks third in total PAR. He also ranks third in passing VOA. He ranks ahead of Dan Fouts, Sonny Jurgensen, Bob Griese, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw and Joe Namath in both total PAR and passing VOA. This means Anderson both accomplished more in total over the course of his career and was a more efficient passer than all these players.
In the cases of Starr, Bradshaw, Namath, and Griese it is clear they did not get into the Hall of Fame because of their statistics; they got in because they won Super Bowls, made guarantees, and went undefeated. The point of comparing Anderson to them is not to say that because they are in, he should be in. It is simply to establish that Anderson’s career statistics are far above the minimum threshold for a Hall of Fame quarterback. The table clearly shows that if statistics alone were the measure of a quarterback’s greatness, Anderson would be mentioned among the greatest of all time.

here is the link
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/07/26/ramblings/stat-analysis/4042/

my personal favorite paragraph is the one i placed in bold for you

You lied about Anderson when you said the following:

And as we're talking about QB's and their ypa...did you know Kenny Anderson had a higher career ypa than any of the two you named in Elway and Montana, as well as Marino? not only that but Anderson had a higher ypa than all these HOF'ers: Len Dawson, D fouts, Sonny Jurgensen, Roger Staubach, B. Griese, B. Starr, J. Namath, T. Bradshaw. Out of every QB in the HOF who started their career after 1950 there are only 2 HOF'ers with a higher YPA than Ken Anderson...those two are F. Tarkenton and J. Unitas.....just some interesting facts since you want to throw out the ypa thing

I've place the outright lies in bold. No Joe ... there is no way you can wiggle out of this one. You are specifically talking about ypa which is all over your post. It's an even better day when you can correct a bengal fan who is cackling about correcting a steeler fan and is then proven wrong :)

[Captain Obvious]

that may be one of the dumbest things i ever heard you say on here.....and that is saying something.

since when does being an elite QB or any player for that matter mean the TEAM has to win something in the post season???????? Don't you understand the meaning of a team yet?????

Jaws said it best last night when tony cornhole said "he didn't win any championships yet" and Jaws pointed out that, that is what a good team does and has nothing to do with how good a qb is. Dan Marino didn't win anything so your saying he was not an elite qb? Dan Fouts didn't win anything, so are you saying he wasn't an elite qb? Barry Sanders didn't win anything, so are you saying he wasn't an elite RB? The best offensive lineman to ever play the game never won a SB so are you saying anthony Munoz wasn't an elite lineman?

seriously, that was a pretty dumb statement you made. So according to you the great LB's you all had in the 90's were actually horrible because they didn't win anything?

duh...learn what a team concept actually means then you can chime in again.....until then don't drop the iq of these boards with your silly posts

I hope that's not what he was saying, because using that logic, Trent Dilfer would be better than Dan Marino.

[Joe from Florence]

You lied about Anderson when you said the following:



I've place the outright lies in bold. No Joe ... there is no way you can wiggle out of this one. You are specifically talking about ypa which is all over your post. It's an even better day when you can correct a bengal fan who is cackling about correcting a steeler fan and is then proven wrong :)
I went by the info in the article i posted the link to, it showing Andersons ypa as being higher....so if the article is wrong don't call me a liar call the author of the article a liar :tool:

[Joe from Florence]

I hope that's not what he was saying, because using that logic, Trent Dilfer would be better than Dan Marino.
That is exactley what blkgld4lifer was saying.
now you understand why we scratch our heads after reading posts from a lot of steeler fans.
Makes you wonder if they actually even know what a football is

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Disagree.

Carson would still be Carson, true. He's still just as talented no matter where he is....BUT

Imagine Carson on the Houston Texans...do you really think he could throw for over 4000 yards a year with those guys? Especially behind that Oline? No running game? (They were ranked 21st last year in that respect).

I don't.

Carr was not a bad QB, he just had a bad running game, no Oline and no defense.

I think Carson would be running for his life on every play.

A good QB can work around having a weak offensive line. Its called a three step drop. Doesn't matter how good the pass rushers are, a good QB who can get the ball out quick will nullify those defensive ends, and on the texans with a guy like andre johnson, carson would be hitting quick slants all day. A weak offensive line would normally prevent you from hitting the deep ball consistantly, but you can still max protect with TEs and with a good reciever you'll still make plays. Bottom line is Carson has the footwork and quick release to cover up a weak offensive line.

[PastorJohnson85329]

What is elite about carson? He is a good qb. To be an elite qb you have to have more than just fantasy football numbers. You actually have to win particularly in the post season. That is what seperate the men from the boys. Now if the steelers have horrible receivers, what are you saying about your defensive backs. You certainly know who hines ward is even though you refuse to give credit. I also have a feeling you will get to know a lot about santonio holmes, the receiver whom some bengal fans claim was not as good as chad jackson, yeah picture that. Oops i almost forgot you already know who santonio is, he is the receiver that ended your postseason hopes last season.

Peyton Manning didnt win his sb until last year. so what your saying is that Manning wasnt an elite quarterback until then? What is elite about Carson? I posted this very same stat earlier in this discussion. Ben had 23 INTS last year. Palmer has had 25 in the past two years.

In his three years on the field Carson's TD INT ratio is 78 and 43. 10768 Yards. And this seems like a big stat with all the steeler fan on here 7.4 avg.and a 91.5 rating and a 63.8 comp. Now i cant find bens career stats on the steelers website but im sure comopared to his numbers that is pretty elite. And its been said over and over one person or side of the ball does not win anything playing as a team will.

[Joe from Florence]

Peyton Manning didnt win his sb until last year. so what your saying is that Manning wasnt an elite quarterback until then? What is elite about Carson? I posted this very same stat earlier in this discussion. Ben had 23 INTS last year. Palmer has had 25 in the past two years.

In his three years on the field Carson's TD INT ratio is 78 and 43. 10768 Yards. And this seems like a big stat with all the steeler fan on here 7.4 avg.and a 91.5 rating and a 63.8 comp. Now i cant find bens career stats on the steelers website but im sure comopared to his numbers that is pretty elite. And its been said over and over one person or side of the ball does not win anything playing as a team will.
Here, i'll help you out
Bens career numbers 52 TD's 43 INT's (a whopping 9 differencial)(what is interesting is the 2 qb's have the same amount of INT's but Carson has 35 more TD's....that is huge)
Bens career rating 87
Bens yards 8519
Bens compl % 62.4
Bens ypa 8.25

not bad numbers in any way....when comparing to other qb's not in elite status in the league :cool:
Then you look at something else if the ben fans want to try and put him in the same category with Carson......Pass Attempts.....as everyone but one steeler fan knows (I will not reveal his name due to stupidity...but give him sometime and i'll bet he shows himself)
The more you throw the harder it is to keep high stats.......
The pass attempts by the 2 qb's over their careers (both started playing in 2004)
Bens Attempts 1032
Carson's attempts 1461
Difference in attempts 429
Carson has basically thrown what would equate to Bens attempts to almost 2 more full seasons of passes.
Ben in his first 2 seasons averaged 281 attempts

[CatKiller]

Schooled??? I think not. Read the post i was responding to, i only pointed out the fact that the statement that Ben has the highest ypa for any qb for his career was wrong. The funny thing is, i didn't even have to do any type of research to find someone....I already knew from the top of my head that Greg Cook had a higher one. so what he only played 2 years....Ben has only played 3 years....so if your disqualifying cook i guess you need to disqualify ben until ben plays 15 years.

and where id i lie about anderson?
I never lied or made up anything.....here my friend is where i got the info from
Hall of Fame Quarterbacks 1950-1990, and Ken AndersonPassRushPassTotalTopNameYearsCplAttCPctYar dsYPATDINTVOAPARPARPAR100*TitlesF. Tarkenton1961-19785689863765.9%641497.4343620827.0%681484155260J . Unitas1956-19734682733763.8%559327.6236319823.5%151165118033K . Anderson1971-19863797574466.1%437957.6227013229.2%491061111040L . Dawson1957-19753302474569.6%377957.9627812937.5%111029104042D . Fouts1973-19874176650264.2%510167.8531219723.1%-51024102040S. Jurgensen1957-19743725563166.1%423247.5230514727.7%-198498320R. Staubach1969-19792567393865.2%320288.132219036.7%4784889542B. Griese1967-19802998456265.7%351657.7127013627.7%678879402B. Starr1956-19712917437166.7%332857.6118010726.6%2277279415J. Namath1965-19772997493560.7%382557.7522617112.8%-456556221T. Bradshaw1970-19832963508258.3%375997.4029517410.3%4349954214*Nu mber of seasons listed among the Top 100 QB Seasons (1960-2004) in PFP 2005.
VOA and PAR numbers are approximations.

Anderson’s conventional accomplishments are good, but he really stands out when we put him in the context of his era. The table above shows every Hall of Fame quarterback whose career began after 1950 and ended before 1990. It has their era-adjusted career statistics as well as their approximate rush PAR, pass PAR and pass VOA. There are 11 Hall of Fame quarterbacks plus Anderson.
It is easy to see why many regard Johnny Unitas as the greatest quarterback of all time. He has excellent numbers overall, as well as three titles and five top 100 seasons. Fran Tarkenton is the only guy with better numbers than Unitas, but his failure to win a title has left him on the outside looking in when it comes to best QB of all time debates. It seems that in this regard Tarkenton is very similar to Peyton Manning and Dan Marino.
Anderson ranks third in total PAR. He also ranks third in passing VOA. He ranks ahead of Dan Fouts, Sonny Jurgensen, Bob Griese, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw and Joe Namath in both total PAR and passing VOA. This means Anderson both accomplished more in total over the course of his career and was a more efficient passer than all these players.
In the cases of Starr, Bradshaw, Namath, and Griese it is clear they did not get into the Hall of Fame because of their statistics; they got in because they won Super Bowls, made guarantees, and went undefeated. The point of comparing Anderson to them is not to say that because they are in, he should be in. It is simply to establish that Anderson’s career statistics are far above the minimum threshold for a Hall of Fame quarterback. The table clearly shows that if statistics alone were the measure of a quarterback’s greatness, Anderson would be mentioned among the greatest of all time.

here is the link
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/07/26/ramblings/stat-analysis/4042/

my personal favorite paragraph is the one i placed in bold for you

Wrong again. Greg Cook played one season and was injured. Tried to make a comeback several years later and threw 3 whole passes completing 1. So that counts as a second season? (Just a little spin there Joe.) And there is also a minimum of 1500 attempts to be included in the official NFL records for this stat. Ben isn't there yet, but will probably be this season.

Also, you do know Anderson threw for 32,838 yards right? Not the 43,795 yards that your "wishfull thinking" chart shows right? You sure your a Bengals fan?
(I know that you knew that, you just thought you'd try and slip those false stats by and hope no one noticed.) Nice try though.

Here's something that might be of interest to you from the very article you posted but failed to read.....(in bold just for you)

The basic idea is to adjust every quarterback’s statistics to a 2004 offensive climate; this puts every player on a level playing field. For example if in a given year there were 25 percent fewer passing yards than there were in 2004, then every quarterback to play in that year gets credited with 33 percent more passing yards for that season. Also, every season is prorated to 16 games, including the strike shortened 1982 and 1987 seasons. This process was repeated for each year of each quarterback’s career. The results allow us to compare apples to apples in terms of statistics. It also enables application of an approximate PAR formula to each player’s career stats, giving us a one-number value of a player’s career production

Basically, this lame formula of what DIDN'T happen says that by adjusting stats for "inflation" to the 2004 standards, Anderson WOULDA had a better YPA than many QBs. Too bad for you that's not what actually happened in the real world.

Again with the woulda coulda shoulda. Just stop it already.

SCHOOLED AGAIN!

[34inXXIII]

Can we please settle the Carson vs Ben debate already please? I have both of the QBs in both of my fantasy leagues and I'd like to know whom I should start. :p

[Joe from Florence]

Wrong again. Greg Cook played one season and was injured. Tried to make a comeback several years later and threw 3 whole passes completing 1. So that counts as a second season? (Just a little spin there Joe.) And there is also a minimum of 1500 attempts to be included in the official NFL records for this stat. Ben isn't there yet, but will probably be this season.


ok my friend....lets place a small...nah, lets make it a huge wager ok?

I'll bet you a dollar for every yard Greg Cook passed for that he actually played...not sat the bench, but played in the NFL for 2 seasons

no spinning involved blind man......I'm not talking years of service (which by the way was from 1969-1973) but pure NFL years playing experience. not making anything up blindman, getting the FACT from NFL.com itself.

So if i'm so called spinning anything you should jump all over the bet.....if i'm wrong you could be $1865 richer.....shoot that would pay the remaining rent on your refrigerator box you live in!!!! :lol:

As far as the other things about anderson...i'll admit i didn't read the entire article, simply did a search for anderson ypa and that is what came back.....but again i told you i didn't lie or make the stuff up...i provided the link i got it from.

Now you also say there has to be a minimum of 1500 passes thrown....now who was spinning something when you made the comment Ben has the highest ypa in history???? So according to you Greg Cook doesn't count because he doesn't have the minimum required....but in your original post Ben did count ...although he didn't have the minimum required either.......now i understand....you truly are the spin doctor around these parts

[Joe from Florence]

Can we please settle the Carson vs Ben debate already please? I have both of the QBs in both of my fantasy leagues and I'd like to know whom I should start. :p
LOL trade Big Ben for Brady Quinn.....he'll do much better for you sitting on the bench :cool:

[ikestops85]

I went by the info in the article i posted the link to, it showing Andersons ypa as being higher....so if the article is wrong don't call me a liar call the author of the article a liar :tool:

Nice try Joe but even when you look at the QB's YPA in the chart you referenced they all beat Anderson but Tarkenton, Jurgensen and Bradshaw. You also can't call the author a liar because he clearly stated how these stats were changed. Here it is

The basic idea is to adjust every quarterback’s statistics to a 2004 offensive climate; this puts every player on a level playing field. For example if in a given year there were 25 percent fewer passing yards than there were in 2004, then every quarterback to play in that year gets credited with 33 percent more passing yards for that season. Also, every season is prorated to 16 games, including the strike shortened 1982 and 1987 seasons. This process was repeated for each year of each quarterback’s career. The results allow us to compare apples to apples in terms of statistics. It also enables application of an approximate PAR formula to each player’s career stats, giving us a one-number value of a player’s career production.

It's hard to believe you missed that. It seems you are a little off your game ... is anything the matter??


I do have a hard time with you bragging on Anderson and his 70% completion percentage. He only threw 309 passes that year and according to you that means it was a lot easier to have that high of a percentage. Are you trying to belittle your boy's accomplishment? The same with Greg Cook ... he only had 197 attempts the year he had a high ypa. Evidently everyone could do that. Here I thought you liked those guys.

Ain't life grand ...

[CatKiller]

Jaws said it best last night when tony cornhole said "he didn't win any championships yet" and Jaws pointed out that, that is what a good team does and has nothing to do with how good a qb is. Dan Marino didn't win anything so your saying he was not an elite qb? Dan Fouts didn't win anything, so are you saying he wasn't an elite qb?

What Kornheiser actually said is that Carson "hasn't won ANYTHING". He didn't say "championships". Changing those words like you did, changes it completely. You see, Marino and Fouts won playoff games and Marino even played in a superbowl. And Marino in particular has/had set numerous NFL records. Carson just doesn't compare to these two.

SCHOOLED!

[Joe from Florence]

I do have a hard time with you bragging on Anderson and his 70% completion percentage. He only threw 309 passes that year and according to you that means it was a lot easier to have that high of a percentage. Are you trying to belittle your boy's accomplishment? The same with Greg Cook ... he only had 197 attempts the year he had a high ypa. Evidently everyone could do that. Here I thought you liked those guys.

Ain't life grand ...
yep and those 309 attempts were more than your boy big jen had in 2 of his 3 seasons lol

so i guess that shows how bad ben really is if he couldn't eclipse the 70% mark by throwing less passes than anderson.


I never said Greg cook was going down in history as the best qb with ypa....it was steeler blowhards talking about Ben having the highest in history...i only proved that statement wrong. Have you ever heard me saying Cook should be in the HOF? heck no, he only played in 2 seasons....just pointing out the fact that the ben thing was false. Whats wrong you still having trouble admitting your wrong? I thought we cleared that up last season...guess you got the bug back huh?

[CatKiller]

Can we please settle the Carson vs Ben debate already please? I have both of the QBs in both of my fantasy leagues and I'd like to know whom I should start. :p

Well since it's FANTASY football, start Carson with all his amazing stats. If wins actually counted like they do in reality football, you would start Ben. Simple enough.

[Joe from Florence]

What Kornheiser actually said is that Carson "hasn't won ANYTHING". He didn't say "championships". Changing those words like you did, changes it completely. You see, Marino and Fouts won playoff games and Marino even played in a superbowl. And Marino in particular has/had set numerous NFL records. Carson just doesn't compare to these two.

SCHOOLED!
Schooled?

you sound like a 5 year old with every post

Hate to tell you, but Carson has already had bigger seasons than Fouts ever had in his entire career....Carson's 2005 season was better than all QB's in history except for a privelaged few and Marino is one of them.

SCHOOLED :rotf:

[Joe from Florence]

Well since it's FANTASY football, start Carson with all his amazing stats. If wins actually counted like they do in reality football, you would start Ben. Simple enough.
how many wins and losses did Ben have last year? yep thats what i thought :rotf:

[The Bat]

Well since it's FANTASY football, start Carson with all his amazing stats. If wins actually counted like they do in reality football, you would start Ben. Simple enough.
Is this some new reality show where Ben gives motorcycle driving tips? :cool:

[Joe from Florence]

Is this some new reality show where Ben gives motorcycle driving tips? :cool:
he has to do something since Bettis stole the name of the book Ben wanted to write
"My life in and out of the Helmet"

[CatKiller]

ok my friend....lets place a small...nah, lets make it a huge wager ok?

I'll bet you a dollar for every yard Greg Cook passed for that he actually played...not sat the bench, but played in the NFL for 2 seasons

no spinning involved blind man......I'm not talking years of service (which by the way was from 1969-1973) but pure NFL years playing experience. not making anything up blindman, getting the FACT from NFL.com itself.

So if i'm so called spinning anything you should jump all over the bet.....if i'm wrong you could be $1865 richer.....shoot that would pay the remaining rent on your refrigerator box you live in!!!! :lol:

As far as the other things about anderson...i'll admit i didn't read the entire article, simply did a search for anderson ypa and that is what came back.....but again i told you i didn't lie or make the stuff up...i provided the link i got it from.

Now you also say there has to be a minimum of 1500 passes thrown....now who was spinning something when you made the comment Ben has the highest ypa in history???? So according to you Greg Cook doesn't count because he doesn't have the minimum required....but in your original post Ben did count ...although he didn't have the minimum required either.......now i understand....you truly are the spin doctor around these parts

Greg Cook's career stats
Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT
1969 cin | 11 | 106 197 53.8 1854 9.4 15 11
1973 cin | 1 | 1 3 33.3 11 3.7 0 0

So your saying that he played an entire second season and only threw 3 passes? And you talk about Ben's low pass attempt #'s?:lol: And yet, his stats(that you bengals love so much) say he played 1 game in 73.

P.s. I wasn't the one who said anything about Ben having the highest ypa in history. Wrong again:)

[blkgld4lifer]

Peyton Manning didnt win his sb until last year. so what your saying is that Manning wasnt an elite quarterback until then? What is elite about Carson? I posted this very same stat earlier in this discussion. Ben had 23 INTS last year. Palmer has had 25 in the past two years.

In his three years on the field Carson's TD INT ratio is 78 and 43. 10768 Yards. And this seems like a big stat with all the steeler fan on here 7.4 avg.and a 91.5 rating and a 63.8 comp. Now i cant find bens career stats on the steelers website but im sure comopared to his numbers that is pretty elite. And its been said over and over one person or side of the ball does not win anything playing as a team will.

I never implied that you have to win a super bowl to be considered an elite qb.
The truth be known is that the media usually as a rule judge qb's by how they lead their
team in the post season. I don't ever recall saying manning wasn't an elite qb before winning a super bowl but by doing so he has put his stamp on an election to the hall of fame shortly after his playing days. Now carson obviously has an edge on ben as far as accuracy and completion pct. is concerned but you guys make it seem like carson is light years ahead of every qb in the league and partcularly ben and he doesn't even have a winning record vs ben. But oh let me guess it is a TEAM game when it is convenient to use that as excuse. I thought elite qb's suppose to elevate the level of play of the players around him. Just like the past 5 years or so with brett favre when the packers win, he elevates the players around him but when the packers lose it is because the lack of talent around him. I am one for tired of this repetitive thread. I am tired of all the excuses. Since it is a team game i say let's settle the mothersucker come Oct.28 and Dec. 2.
Let's see who have the best TEAM then.

[34inXXIII]

Well since it's FANTASY football, start Carson with all his amazing stats. If wins actually counted like they do in reality football, you would start Ben. Simple enough.
The they would have been even last year, correct? Of course, if they got points for handing off.... :p

[ikestops85]

yep and those 309 attempts were more than your boy big jen had in 2 of his 3 seasons lol

so i guess that shows how bad ben really is if he couldn't eclipse the 70% mark by throwing less passes than anderson.


I never said Greg cook was going down in history as the best qb with ypa....it was steeler blowhards talking about Ben having the highest in history...i only proved that statement wrong. Have you ever heard me saying Cook should be in the HOF? heck no, he only played in 2 seasons....just pointing out the fact that the ben thing was false. Whats wrong you still having trouble admitting your wrong? I thought we cleared that up last season...guess you got the bug back huh?

Back to this again Joe ... well Anderson threw a whole 14 more passes that year than Ben did his rookie year ... and it was Anderson's 12th year in the league. I'll just let the fact that you hang your hat on 14 passes and comparing a 12 year vet to a rookie out there for everyone to see how ridiculous your argument is.

I was the one who said Ben had the highest ypa in history and I said I was wrong in my next post so I have no trouble admitting I'm wrong when it happens. It happens about as often as leap year though ... lol

One other correction on your many ... uh ... shall we say oversights in this thread. Carson has thrown 26 more TD passes than Ben has ... still a very big difference but you gave Carson an extra 10 or so. I'm sure it was just your usual problem with math.

[CatKiller]

One other correction on your many ... uh ... shall we say oversights in this thread. Carson has thrown 26 more TD passes than Ben has ... still a very big difference but you gave Carson an extra 10 or so. I'm sure it was just your usual problem with math.

By "problem with math" I'm sure you mean blatant exaggeration and spin.

Most of these NoobMuffins here might buy his false stats, but the rest of us know better.:rotf:

[ikestops85]

By "problem with math" I'm sure you mean blatant exaggeration and spin.

Most of these NoobMuffins here might buy his false stats, but the rest of us know better.:rotf:

I'm trying to be kinder and gentler to those that have that particular handicap. :rotf:

[Joe from Florence]

Back to this again Joe ... well Anderson threw a whole 14 more passes that year than Ben did his rookie year ... and it was Anderson's 12th year in the league. I'll just let the fact that you hang your hat on 14 passes and comparing a 12 year vet to a rookie out there for everyone to see how ridiculous your argument is.

I was the one who said Ben had the highest ypa in history and I said I was wrong in my next post so I have no trouble admitting I'm wrong when it happens. It happens about as often as leap year though ... lol

One other correction on your many ... uh ... shall we say oversights in this thread. Carson has thrown 26 more TD passes than Ben has ... still a very big difference but you gave Carson an extra 10 or so. I'm sure it was just your usual problem with math.
Could be, my math teacher was from pittsburgh :cool:

[Joe from Florence]

The they would have been even last year, correct? Of course, if they got points for handing off.... :p
Actually no they wouldn't of been.....Ben had less wins than Carson last year.....remember the Steelers had to play Batch just so they could get a couple wins lol

[Joe from Florence]

Greg Cook's career stats
Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT
1969 cin | 11 | 106 197 53.8 1854 9.4 15 11
1973 cin | 1 | 1 3 33.3 11 3.7 0 0

So your saying that he played an entire second season and only threw 3 passes? And you talk about Ben's low pass attempt #'s?:lol: And yet, his stats(that you bengals love so much) say he played 1 game in 73.

P.s. I wasn't the one who said anything about Ben having the highest ypa in history. Wrong again:)
nope, learn how to read my friend. I never said he played 2 ENTIRE seasons.....I said he played 2 seasons.

So you now owe me over a thousand dollars......i guess that would be a years salary huh?

[Joe from Florence]

I never implied that you have to win a super bowl to be considered an elite qb.
The truth be known is that the media usually as a rule judge qb's by how they lead their
team in the post season. I don't ever recall saying manning wasn't an elite qb before winning a super bowl but by doing so he has put his stamp on an election to the hall of fame shortly after his playing days. Now carson obviously has an edge on ben as far as accuracy and completion pct. is concerned but you guys make it seem like carson is light years ahead of every qb in the league and partcularly ben and he doesn't even have a winning record vs ben. But oh let me guess it is a TEAM game when it is convenient to use that as excuse. I thought elite qb's suppose to elevate the level of play of the players around him. Just like the past 5 years or so with brett favre when the packers win, he elevates the players around him but when the packers lose it is because the lack of talent around him. I am one for tired of this repetitive thread. I am tired of all the excuses. Since it is a team game i say let's settle the mothersucker come Oct.28 and Dec. 2.
Let's see who have the best TEAM then.
Actually you said something pretty close
"To be an elite qb you have to have more than just fantasy football numbers. You actually have to win particularly in the post season"

Now you go off talking about a TEAM etc. when we have said for years on here to win championships etc. it has always been a team thing but many stooler fans have insisted it was all BEN.

So now that you realize we have an elite qb and yours is too busy looking like a chipmunk (man does he store nuts in his cheeks or what?) now you say it's a team game. Welcome to common sense my friend.

So now that you admit winning in the post season doesn't have anything to do with being an elite qb you probably just got kicked out of the steelroid fan club.....that is not in there by-laws....that type of belief is actually not tolerated with steelroid fans

[CatKiller]

Actually no they wouldn't of been.....Ben had less wins than Carson last year.....remember the Steelers had to play Batch just so they could get a couple wins lol

Actually, No, I don't remember that. Batch only started 1(one,uno,eins) game, opening day against the Dolphins.

SCHOOLED yet again!

[CatKiller]

nope, learn how to read my friend. I never said he played 2 ENTIRE seasons.....I said he played 2 seasons.

So you now owe me over a thousand dollars......i guess that would be a years salary huh?

So playing 1 game = a season. News to me. Now if you said he played IN 2 seasons, you would be correct.

[philhos]

Actually, No, I don't remember that. Batch only started 1(one,uno,eins) game, opening day against the Dolphins.

SCHOOLED yet again!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Batch play in the Atlanta game?

[34inXXIII]

This thread is starting to break down into the classic realm of "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is."

[Rayne]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Batch play in the Atlanta game?

After Ben was injured, yes.

But we lost that game, Philhos.

[Joe from Florence]

Actually, No, I don't remember that. Batch only started 1(one,uno,eins) game, opening day against the Dolphins.

SCHOOLED yet again!
and as i said...Carson had more wins than ben....or can't you add? hows that pittsburgh public education working out for you?

Talk about schooled...it is clear you haven't been :rotf:

[CatKiller]

and as i said...Carson had more wins than ben....or can't you add? hows that pittsburgh public education working out for you?

Talk about schooled...it is clear you haven't been :rotf:

A valiant effort but you fell short again.

You said..."remember the Steelers had to play Batch just so they could get a couple wins"...Joe from Florence Y'all

I responded with...."Batch only started 1(one,uno,eins) game, opening day against the Dolphins"...Catkiller

Thus proving you wrong again. No where in any post did I say Ben had more wins as a starter than Carson last year. Just so you know, Carson-8 wins...Ben 7 wins, last year. But again, I never said anything about that. Leave it to a Bengal fan to change the subject when they have lost an argument.

What I did say earlier about wins was..."Well since it's FANTASY football, start Carson with all his amazing stats. If wins actually counted like they do in reality football, you would start Ben. Simple enough."....Catkiller

No where in that statement did I say just last year. What I was referring to in that statement was their overall career records as a starter. Leave it to a Bengals fan (who loves stats) to only use a portion of the stats to suit their argument. Typical.

just so you know,

Carson 25 W----21 L
Ben 34 W---12 L

Cased closed

Glad I could help, I'm here to educate.
Speaking of education, I was born, raised, and still reside in the state of Ohio. So if my intelligence is lacking, you can blame it on the Ohio public education system.

SCHOOLED!
man, this is too easy.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Thus proving you wrong again. No where in any post did I say Ben had more wins as a starter than Carson last year. Just so you know, Carson-8 wins...Ben 7 wins, last year. But again, I never said anything about that. Leave it to a Bengal fan to change the subject when they have lost an argument.

What I did say earlier about wins was..."Well since it's FANTASY football, start Carson with all his amazing stats. If wins actually counted like they do in reality football, you would start Ben. Simple enough."....Catkiller

No where in that statement did I say just last year. What I was referring to in that statement was their overall career records as a starter. Leave it to a Bengals fan (who loves stats) to only use a portion of the stats to suit their argument. Typical.

just so you know,

Carson 25 W----21 L
Ben 34 W---12 L

Cased closed

Glad I could help, I'm here to educate.
Speaking of education, I was born, raised, and still reside in the state of Ohio. So if my intelligence is lacking, you can blame it on the Ohio public education system.

SCHOOLED!
man, this is too easy.

No fan of football, anywhere and for any team, even a steeler fan, would say that Ben roethlisberger is more capable of winning a game than Carson Palmer. To say that shows you dont know anything about quarterbacks.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Speaking of education, I was born, raised, and still reside in the state of Ohio. So if my intelligence is lacking, you can blame it on the Ohio public education system.


So explain why you're steeler fan without sounding like a p.o.s.

[blkgld4lifer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Batch play in the Atlanta game?

Yes batch played in the second half after ben suffered a concussion.
Batch did not start the game.

[Bengals_9]

http://www.lordstowndq.com/WafflebowlSundae-Q107_Xlrg.jpg

lol

[blkgld4lifer]

Actually you said something pretty close
"To be an elite qb you have to have more than just fantasy football numbers. You actually have to win particularly in the post season"

Now you go off talking about a TEAM etc. when we have said for years on here to win championships etc. it has always been a team thing but many stooler fans have insisted it was all BEN.

So now that you realize we have an elite qb and yours is too busy looking like a chipmunk (man does he store nuts in his cheeks or what?) now you say it's a team game. Welcome to common sense my friend.

So now that you admit winning in the post season doesn't have anything to do with being an elite qb you probably just got kicked out of the steelroid fan club.....that is not in there by-laws....that type of belief is actually not tolerated with steelroid fans

I can't tell from reading some of your posts that you have said for years that it is a team thing. You always post how great carson's stats are compared to the rest of the qb's in the league. If he is as great as you claim, why hasn't his leadership translated to more wins. Remember he is great, he is supposed to elvevate the level of play around him.
Come on now don't back off now and say it is supposed to be a team game. I could care less if his stats are better than ben's because all i care about is wins and believe me the talent in pittsburgh when they won the super bowl wasn't the greatest but they played team football and got hot at the right time. I didn't know you were so hung up on the looks of a qb. Are you dating carson or something? Do you carry his jock strap to every practice? What does the way ben look have anything to do with winning football games?
You seem to be the only one obsessed with constantly posting carson's stats on the board as if most of us don't already know. You seem to be more of a carson fan than a bengals fan. There seems to be some issues here. James farrior is better than all the bengals lb's but i am not obsessed with posting his stats here or on the steelers message board daily. Maybe this season you will understand football is a team game.

[BengalsAtOSU]

Relax dude. This is just my point. I have said time and time again carson is a good qb. I didn't try to imply that you have to win a championship to be considered an elite qb. But you bengal fans are all over carson's jock and the guy has a body of work of only 3 seasons in the league and you have already got him in canton. Get the heck out of here.

And, good sir, just how many years does Big Ben have in the league?

Why do you think all the experts consider Carson to be a better QB than Ben?

Better decision making, better arm strength, better overall end of season stats, fewer interceptions.

What more proof do you need that Carson > Ben?

[BengalsAtOSU]

What Kornheiser actually said is that Carson "hasn't won ANYTHING". He didn't say "championships". Changing those words like you did, changes it completely. You see, Marino and Fouts won playoff games and Marino even played in a superbowl. And Marino in particular has/had set numerous NFL records. Carson just doesn't compare to these two.

SCHOOLED!

Sorry for the double post, but i'm getting annoyed.

STOP with these "schooled" comments after your failed attempts to make intelligent posts. We'll never know how many playoff games Carson could have won during the 11-5 season, because Von Oelhoffen took his knee out, and the next year the defense failed epically and Carson wasn't himself. Also, Marino and Fouts had full careers to amass those stats. You're giving Carson 3 years to have stats and wins comparable to Marino and Fouts? Completely unfair comparison. Gimme a break.


And by the way.

SCHOOLED!

[Rayne]

Sorry for the double post, but i'm getting annoyed.

STOP with these "schooled" comments after your failed attempts to make intelligent posts. We'll never know how many playoff games Carson could have won during the 11-5 season, because Von Oelhoffen took his knee out, and the next year the defense failed epically and Carson wasn't himself. Also, Marino and Fouts had full careers to amass those stats. You're giving Carson 3 years to have stats and wins comparable to Marino and Fouts? Completely unfair comparison. Gimme a break.


And by the way.

SCHOOLED!

If you're going to pull the "Carson wasn't himself" arguement, then you have to allow some of my fellow Steeler fans the same thing when they point out that Ben was in a near fatal car accident, lost of ton of wt. and wasn't himself either.

Personally, I don't make excuses for either.

This is a TEAM sport....you should have found a way to win without Carson. You built your entire team around your QB. We didn't. We won. "I don't care who we put out there. We gotta win this game!" - Levi. I have that on DVD at home.

How far could Carson have gone if not injured....this will probably be debated for decades to come. IMHO, you still don't win that game with a healthy Carson. Your defense didn't tackle well, didn't play well, didn't trust one another, and sent 9 men after ARE on the gadget while the other 2 just stood there. I don't see a defense like that winning anything in the post season.

I tell things like I see them.....if Carson stays on this pace, he should shatter some of the records amassed by Marino and Fouts.

[Veteran Leadership]

If you're going to pull the "Carson wasn't himself" arguement, then you have to allow some of my fellow Steeler fans the same thing when they point out that Ben was in a near fatal car accident, lost of ton of wt. and wasn't himself either.

Personally, I don't make excuses for either.

This is a TEAM sport....you should have found a way to win without Carson. You built your entire team around your QB. We didn't. We won. "I don't care who we put out there. We gotta win this game!" - Levi. I have that on DVD at home.

How far could Carson have gone if not injured....this will probably be debated for decades to come. IMHO, you still don't win that game with a healthy Carson. Your defense didn't tackle well, didn't play well, didn't trust one another, and sent 9 men after ARE on the gadget while the other 2 just stood there. I don't see a defense like that winning anything in the post season.

I tell things like I see them.....if Carson stays on this pace, he should shatter some of the records amassed by Marino and Fouts.

I swear to god that you have like 5 overall posts that you use over and over again. Look, if Palmer was in the game it would be so different that debating the outcome is worthless. Personally, if Kitna could play well for an entire half I think Palmer could have played well the entire game, but that still doesn't mean we win the game. Also, that is a trick play, when a trick play works the opposing defense always looks stupid, when it fails the offense looks stupid. It was a great calculated risk and it paid off, kudos to your offensive coordinator. Also, as far as our defense not playing well being one of your main reasons for us losing with Carson I kind of have to chuckle at that logic. The Bengals defense never tackles well, not then and not now. They rarely play well, even less often now, so for the Bengals to win 11 games that year says something about Palmer. Just because a team does not have a good defense does not mean that they cannot win a wildcard game Ghost.

As far as it being a team sport, you are correct to an extent. The patriots are not winning anything this year without Brady in the playoffs, the same thing for the Colts with Manning. Oddly enough, the Bears would win more games if their starting QB got hurt, hey who knew?