Do people have too much freedom?

[Rayne]

It occured to me today that a minority of people in this country can't handle the freedom the were given by the founders of this nation, and the people that have bled on the battle field for it.
People CHOOSE to eat at McDonalds - then sue for getting fat. People CHOOSE to smoke cigarettes for 40 years, and sue for getting cancer. A guy spill coffee in his own lap at McDonalds, and sues because the coffee is too hot.
Then today....a woman committed suicide over her credit card debit - and her husband is sueing Discover.
Somewhere in the 90's, people stopped be held accountable for their own actions.
If people can't handle the responsiblity for their actions, should they be allowed to have them?

[jamiethelanky]

I blame lawyers and a lack of general intelligence.

[Jom112]

Yes and no. You don't take away freedoms from people but you take away some of the the power around lawsuits. There are a ton of issues with the legal systems, most around frivolous lawsuits.
I remember my first experience with one (Not directly). My school went on a field trip to the local courthouse when I was in Jr. High. One of the guys giving the tour told us about a lawsuit where a group of kids were going "pool hoping". Essentially they just ran around and jumped in random peoples pools. One girl jumped into a pool that was empty and was severly paralyzed because of it. She then sued the owner of the house and WON, because the owner's fence wasn't the legal height.
If you put in laws such as a cap on medical liability lawsuits I think the system will be better. Yes it would **** to lose a family member due to a medical mistake but $50 Million isn't going to bring the person back, it just hurts the medical field...

[Turk88]

You are treadfing in deep water here. You are trying to correlate people's frivolous lawsuits with the freedoms we currently have.
I think this is dangerous. Everyday we see our freedoms disappear bit by bit. Whay can't I eat trans fats if I want too? Because New York City said I can't! Shouldn't they be more worried about the spread of venerial disease and the rampant teenage pregnancies that we have now in this country? Yes, but instead they decide to focus on what makes us fat and unhealthy. Should I not be allowed to decide if I want to be fat? Just because NYC says fat is ugly does not make it so!
Let's not even discuss the evaporating rigfhts of gun owners or the Freedom Act, which in and of itself is infringing on all of our privacy rights that so many before have died to protect.
Instead I think we should squash the frivolous lawsuits by having our representatives come up with a bill that will put an end to these lawsuits that are nothing more than get rich quick schemes.

[kywcat]

It is a very slippery slope. Who decides who gets what freedoms? I agree with Turk in that the problem is not the freedoms people have, but rather the system they are able to use to their own advantage.
The main problem is not the freedoms we enjoy but the lack of ownership in our daily lives. People are always wanting to blame someone else for the mistake they make instead of taking responsibility of their actions.

[Jom112]

You are treadfing in deep water here. You are trying to correlate people's frivolous lawsuits with the freedoms we currently have.
I think this is dangerous. Everyday we see our freedoms disappear bit by bit. Whay can't I eat trans fats if I want too? Because New York City said I can't! Shouldn't they be more worried about the spread of venerial disease and the rampant teenage pregnancies that we have now in this country? Yes, but instead they decide to focus on what makes us fat and unhealthy. Should I not be allowed to decide if I want to be fat? Just because NYC says fat is ugly does not make it so!
Let's not even discuss the evaporating rigfhts of gun owners or the Freedom Act, which in and of itself is infringing on all of our privacy rights that so many before have died to protect.
Instead I think we should squash the frivolous lawsuits by having our representatives come up with a bill that will put an end to these lawsuits that are nothing more than get rich quick schemes.

As a native New Yorker, I'm not sure exactly how fat people being judged is solely New York's fault? I'm sure everyone in Ohio loves looking at obese people and it's only NY where they're criticized.
Any laws against fatty foods are not because 'fat is ugly' it's because too much fat is unhealthy. Yes, people have the right to look however they want but there are medical issues related to people being obese.
And who do you think is going to pay the medical charges when they need a heart transplat or need medicine such as lipitor? If there were zero laws about food (i.e. nutirition labels) or smoking then our medical industry would be in even more of a mess than it is already...

[Danno]

Yes and no. You don't take away freedoms from people but you take away some of the the power around lawsuits. There are a ton of issues with the legal systems, most around frivolous lawsuits.
I remember my first experience with one (Not directly). My school went on a field trip to the local courthouse when I was in Jr. High. One of the guys giving the tour told us about a lawsuit where a group of kids were going "pool hoping". Essentially they just ran around and jumped in random peoples pools. One girl jumped into a pool that was empty and was severly paralyzed because of it. She send sued the owner of the house and WON, because the owner's fence wasn't the legal height.
If you put in laws such as a cap on medical liability lawsuits I think the system will be better. Yes it would **** to lose a family member due to a medical mistake but $50 Million isn't going to bring the person back, it just hurts the medical field...




Please, tell me you are kidding.

Otherwise, I might sue some of these people for my general loss of faith in humanity or just flat out making us all dumber.

[Jom112]

Yes and no. You don't take away freedoms from people but you take away some of the the power around lawsuits. There are a ton of issues with the legal systems, most around frivolous lawsuits.
I remember my first experience with one (Not directly). My school went on a field trip to the local courthouse when I was in Jr. High. One of the guys giving the tour told us about a lawsuit where a group of kids were going "pool hoping". Essentially they just ran around and jumped in random peoples pools. One girl jumped into a pool that was empty and was severly paralyzed because of it. She send sued the owner of the house and WON, because the owner's fence wasn't the legal height.
If you put in laws such as a cap on medical liability lawsuits I think the system will be better. Yes it would **** to lose a family member due to a medical mistake but $50 Million isn't going to bring the person back, it just hurts the medical field...




Please, tell me you are kidding.

Otherwise, I might sue some of these people for my general loss of faith in humanity or just flat out making us all dumber.

I wish I was kidding. It's a completely messed up legal system we have...

[Danno]

I wish I was kidding. It's a completely messed up legal system we have...



::::: SMASHES HEAD INTO KEYBOARD:::::

[34inXXIII]

::::: SMASHES HEAD INTO KEYBOARD:::::

I think you can sue Logitech for that.

[Joe from Florence]

::::: SMASHES HEAD INTO KEYBOARD:::::

I think you can sue Logitech for that.

Then Logitech can sue Dell whose computers are compatible with logitech keyboards, then Dell can sue Microsoft for allowing logitech keyboards, then Microsoft can sue Best buy for allowing Danno to purchase a computer, then Best Buy can sue Master Card for allowing the credit for the purchase of computer which uses windows which is compatible with a logitech keyboard which was implanted in Danno's forehead.....then Master Card can sue Al Gore for inventing the internet, which if he never invented it in the first place Danno wouldn't of been able to read this post which resides out in cyberspace.
So it all comes down to this.....the Democrats are to blame!!!!!! [:P]

[Rayne]

Don't get me wrong....I think it's your RIGHT to eat Big Macs daily and gain wieght. I think it's your RIGHT to smoke cigarettes and get cancer. I think if you have a credit card, you have the RIGHT to run up the bill, etc.
I just think that people should be willing to accept the consequences of those actions BEFORE you do them.
If you get cancer from smoking - you earned it. If you gain 50 pounds from Big Macs - you earned it. If you're $15,000 in debt from credit cards - you earned it. If you spill coffee in your own lap - your bad. Let's hope that when he did that, he somehow castrated himself - that way he wont be able to breed.
If you're having a lot of unprotected sex with a lot of people, and you get pregnant or get an STD - you earned it. If you drink and get behind the wheel...EXPECT to get arrested or in a wreck.
Beaker would call it, "Action - reaction", others would say that you "Reap what you sew".
And for some reason, there are a lot of people out there that think that doesn't apply.

[34inXXIII]

Then Logitech can sue Dell whose computers are compatible with logitech keyboards, then Dell can sue Microsoft for allowing logitech keyboards, then Microsoft can sue Best buy for allowing Danno to purchase a computer, then Best Buy can sue Master Card for allowing the credit for the purchase of computer which uses windows which is compatible with a logitech keyboard which was implanted in Danno's forehead.....then Master Card can sue Al Gore for inventing the internet, which if he never invented it in the first place Danno wouldn't of been able to read this post which resides out in cyberspace.So it all comes down to this.....the Democrats are to blame!!!!!! [:P]
DAMN YOU, ANDREW JACKSON!!!!!! [:@]

[34inXXIII]

I just think that people should be willing to accept the consequences of those actions BEFORE you do them.

Exactly. It's not a matter of too much freedom; it's a mattter of too little responsibility.

[Hachi Go]

It occured to me today that a minority of people in this country can't handle the freedom the were given by the founders of this nation, and the people that have bled on the battle field for it.
People CHOOSE to eat at McDonalds - then sue for getting fat. People CHOOSE to smoke cigarettes for 40 years, and sue for getting cancer. A guy spill coffee in his own lap at McDonalds, and sues because the coffee is too hot.
Then today....a woman committed suicide over her credit card debit - and her husband is sueing Discover.
Somewhere in the 90's, people stopped be held accountable for their own actions.
If people can't handle the responsiblity for their actions, should they be allowed to have them?


you have a link to the discover card story, i tried searching but couldn't find anything

[Rayne]

It occured to me today that a minority of people in this country can't handle the freedom the were given by the founders of this nation, and the people that have bled on the battle field for it.
People CHOOSE to eat at McDonalds - then sue for getting fat. People CHOOSE to smoke cigarettes for 40 years, and sue for getting cancer. A guy spill coffee in his own lap at McDonalds, and sues because the coffee is too hot.
Then today....a woman committed suicide over her credit card debit - and her husband is sueing Discover.
Somewhere in the 90's, people stopped be held accountable for their own actions.
If people can't handle the responsiblity for their actions, should they be allowed to have them?


you have a link to the discover card story, i tried searching but couldn't find anything


Nope....heard that on Fox news channel today while I was on break this morning. They might have something on their homepage.

[oasiswr]

Actually people are placing lawsuits on tabacco corperations because for decades they claimed they never enhanced the the amount of nicotine in cigarettes to keep customers. Which was proven false when it came to light they used flue smoking of stems to tabacco fillers, then modified the filters for better nicotine extraction (Amonia traces in filters). Besides I have no remorse for a company that tries to make candy flavored or fruit flavored cigs for the sole purpose to get new customers targeting younger kids.

[Rayne]

Actually people are placing lawsuits on tabacco corperations because for decades they claimed they never enhanced the the amount of nicotine in cigarettes to keep customers. Which was proven false when it came to light they used flue smoking of stems to tabacco fillers, then modified the filters for better nicotine extraction (Amonia traces in filters). Besides I have no remorse for a company that tries to make candy flavored or fruit flavored cigs for the sole purpose to get new customers targeting younger kids.

People have known for years that stuff is bad for you. They could have quit anytime they wanted. No one forced them to keep smoking.

[oasiswr]

Back in the during the 20's - 60's doctors promoted them as good for you, then all of a sudden around like the 80's it wasn't good for you. Heck by that time a person a who's a two packer a day has those chemical imprints telling them they need those cig's no matter what. And by not getting those cig fix it could cause them severe withdraws triggering high blood pressure, heart attack or both. Sure smokers can quit, they quit all the time, but most likely they always return because the nicotine is that addictive.

However the whole issue is not the factor of people placing law suits on the Tabacco company because they gave them cancer---- it was because the lies of the companies telling them they didn't enhance them to keep them smoking. I see these tabacco companies nothing more as pushers selling legal drugs to make a profit because they do the same crap as drug dealers do by modifying a product to keep you addicted.

P.s There is absolutely no reason for a 84 year woman to suffer 3rd degree scalding burn from a cup of coffee that should have never been at 180 degrees in the first place. Yes the coffee should be hot, but not scalding hot. Ideally maybe you want that cup around 120 degrees as a warm placement temp; where it would be actually capable of drinking, but never at scalding temps.

[SnapCount80]

I just think that people should be willing to accept the consequences of those actions BEFORE you do them.

Exactly. It's not a matter of too much freedom; it's a mattter of too little responsibility.

Bingo! The same root that has caused such an uproar in the NFL with player conduct, can also be associated with the bulk of societal problems. Lack of responsibility.

It seems that if you don't have to work for something, you tend to take advantage of it. Some people apparently feel they are inherently owed something by the world. And don't care how they get what they want, just so long as they do get it.

[Rayne]

Back in the during the 20's - 60's doctors promoted them as good for you, then all of a sudden around like the 80's it wasn't good for you. Heck by that time a person a who's a two packer a day has those chemical imprints telling them they need those cig's no matter what. And by not getting those cig fix it could cause them severe withdraws triggering high blood pressure, heart attack or both. Sure smokers can quit, they quit all the time, but most likely they always return because the nicotine is that addictive.

However the whole issue is not the factor of people placing law suits on the Tabacco company because they gave them cancer---- it was because the lies of the companies telling them they didn't enhance them to keep them smoking. I see these tabacco companies nothing more as pushers selling legal drugs to make a profit because they do the same crap as drug dealers do by modifying a product to keep you addicted.

P.s There is absolutely no reason for a 84 year woman to suffer 3rd degree scalding burn from a cup of coffee that should have never been at 180 degrees in the first place. Yes the coffee should be hot, but not scalding hot. Ideally maybe you want that cup around 120 degrees as a warm placement temp; where it would be actually capable of drinking, but never at scalding temps.

With regard to the coffee...it was a man. He put the coffee cup between his legs, and tried to pry the lid off with one hand. The coffee splashed and he burned his groin. His fault.

[oasiswr]

That still doesn't change the problem of over 180-190 degree farenheit coffee left on the coffee warmer after it brews (still kept to this temp even after brewing is done) which is normally brewed at 200 degrees. I suppose that would be useful if they are ever robbed they could simply maim the robber with scalding hot coffee similiar to medieval boiling hot oil.[:O] So I suppose that would be a cost effective means of security for employee's over more security officiers hired. LOL (sarcasm) Besides how do people drink that crap without burning the skin, lips, throat, and tongue?


When I see issues like state wide ban on smoking in bars ( a place meant to indulge in sinful activity like smoking and adult beverages), I see a loss in freedom already. In some cases you cannot smoke within 100 feet of a public buildings outdoors.

[toyota24]

I'm with whoever it was that brought up the point that if we decide we need to cut down on freedom, someone has to judge what freedom is "bad" and what needs to be done about it. If that's what we decide we want to do, then that means we have to put a lot of trust in government to make the call. That's not gonna be good. The right will point out frivolous lawsuits and try to make it harder to sue large companies. The pendulum of politics will swing and one day you'll get a lefty with a chance to make a mark. I'm guessing they'd take a shot at gun rights, pointing to school shootings, etc. It's way too slippery a slope to start sliding down, as whoever gets the benefits at the starting point will one day find themselves on the other end. I'm interested to see how this works, particualrly in relation to the Patriot Act. Under Clinton, the Justice department was way too heavy handed in places like Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc. That was before the federal govt got the blank check to spy on whoever it deemed fit after 911. This thing needs to go as soon as possible, or at least needs to be altered to the point to where only people suspected of wanting to commit acts of terror are the target.
As far as the lawsiuts go, yeah I agree that lots of them are absurd. On the flipside though, corporations have a goal, and that's to make money with as little responsiblity to society as possible. If a drug company pushes a medication through that shows to be harmful in studies, people are gonna flip when dad has a heart attack b/c of his arthritis meds. The companies are going to make their money any way they can, with no regard for who they run over in the process. I have a hard time crying for them if some loon happens to bilk them out of some cash b/c they decided to force the issue. In this day and age, most corps just see it as the price of doing business, and they have the attorneys at their disposal to win or at least make it hellish to oppose them most of the time.

[Alias]

If people can't handle the responsiblity for their actions, should they be allowed to have them?


No they should not. To be completely honest, I've never been a huge fan of the freedom of speech either. It seems to cause a good deal more harm than good, because people are stupid. To quote Men in Black:

J: Why the big secret? People are smart, they can handle it.
K: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.

[Dayton_Bengal_Chic]

::::: SMASHES HEAD INTO KEYBOARD:::::

I think you can sue Logitech for that.

Then Logitech can sue Dell whose computers are compatible with logitech keyboards, then Dell can sue Microsoft for allowing logitech keyboards, then Microsoft can sue Best buy for allowing Danno to purchase a computer, then Best Buy can sue Master Card for allowing the credit for the purchase of computer which uses windows which is compatible with a logitech keyboard which was implanted in Danno's forehead.....then Master Card can sue Al Gore for inventing the internet, which if he never invented it in the first place Danno wouldn't of been able to read this post which resides out in cyberspace.
So it all comes down to this.....the Democrats are to blame!!!!!! [:P]



http://twoweekwait.com/community/modules/Forums/images/smiles/bonklaugh.gifhttp://twoweekwait.com/community/modules/Forums/images/smiles/bonklaugh.gifhttp://twoweekwait.com/community/modules/Forums/images/smiles/bonklaugh.gifhttp://twoweekwait.com/community/modules/Forums/images/smiles/bonklaugh.gifhttp://twoweekwait.com/community/modules/Forums/images/smiles/bonklaugh.gif

[Dayton_Bengal_Chic]

I suppose that would be useful if they are ever robbed they could simply maim the robber with scalding hot coffee similiar to medieval boiling hot oil.[:O]

Umm....NO. You cannot throw scalding coffee on a robber. He will sue you and win, I guarantee it! [:@]

[Danno]

...
As far as the lawsiuts go, yeah I agree that lots of them are absurd. On the flipside though, corporations have a goal, and that's to make money with as little responsiblity to society as possible. If a drug company pushes a medication through that shows to be harmful in studies, people are gonna flip when dad has a heart attack b/c of his arthritis meds. The companies are going to make their money any way they can, with no regard for who they run over in the process. I have a hard time crying for them if some loon happens to bilk them out of some cash b/c they decided to force the issue. In this day and age, most corps just see it as the price of doing business, and they have the attorneys at their disposal to win or at least make it hellish to oppose them most of the time.


See those I don't have much issue with, if you can show that angle. They don't see stupid because they have an honest point. Thats fine.
Its the ones that just don't hae a solid angle other than "WAAA WAAA I want money!" "I did somethign stupid, but its not my fault!" that annoy me.

like:

The teen jumping into an empty pool, and then suing because the fence wasn't high enough
That St. Louis Cardinal's father suing the tow truck driver and the stalled out driver because his son was twice the legal limit, driving, and talking on his cell phone whn he crashed into a truck.
Suing McDonald's because its makes you fat. (BTW. can we say Darwin award on that one?)
A woman winning 2.6 million by suing over hurting her back while opening a PICKLE JAR.
Women suing because seeing doctors rush to help their mother in the EMERGENCY ROOM caused them emotional distress.
A Former EMS driver suing because he was fired when he stopped for juice and doughnuts while transporting a patient. He said had he been white, not black, he wouldn't of been fired.
There are more here http://www.power-of-attorneys.com/stupid_lawsuit_collection.asp?page=1
some are just plain funny, not stupid. [:D]

[Turk88]

You are treadfing in deep water here. You are trying to correlate people's frivolous lawsuits with the freedoms we currently have.
I think this is dangerous. Everyday we see our freedoms disappear bit by bit. Whay can't I eat trans fats if I want too? Because New York City said I can't! Shouldn't they be more worried about the spread of venerial disease and the rampant teenage pregnancies that we have now in this country? Yes, but instead they decide to focus on what makes us fat and unhealthy. Should I not be allowed to decide if I want to be fat? Just because NYC says fat is ugly does not make it so!
Let's not even discuss the evaporating rigfhts of gun owners or the Freedom Act, which in and of itself is infringing on all of our privacy rights that so many before have died to protect.
Instead I think we should squash the frivolous lawsuits by having our representatives come up with a bill that will put an end to these lawsuits that are nothing more than get rich quick schemes.

As a native New Yorker, I'm not sure exactly how fat people being judged is solely New York's fault? I'm sure everyone in Ohio loves looking at obese people and it's only NY where they're criticized.
Any laws against fatty foods are not because 'fat is ugly' it's because too much fat is unhealthy. Yes, people have the right to look however they want but there are medical issues related to people being obese.
And who do you think is going to pay the medical charges when they need a heart transplat or need medicine such as lipitor? If there were zero laws about food (i.e. nutirition labels) or smoking then our medical industry would be in even more of a mess than it is already...


I am talking about the ban on trans fats. That is ridiculous. Bacon is bad for you to..hell, all fried foods are bad. Maybe NYC should ban all of the fried foods and just be done with it.
Yes there are medical issues relating to being obese but that really has nothing to do with ban on trans fats. If that was the case then NYC should ban more than just that, there are so many things that are bad for you I am sure NYC can turn everyone into vegans by force if needed.

[oasiswr]

I once read a article about a robber who sued the house owner for shooting him in the leg during his home invasion and robbery. Gheez, I guess the owner should have shot to kill and still be within his rights of self defense; as long as it's only one shot fired of course.

The real problem is that there is just way too many lawyers with so little to do they have to go for scams. At any given major city you can find close to 100 pages in the yellow book just for lawyers alone------- lawyers unbelievable. My friend's buddy is a lawyer and practically where ever he goes he's passing out cards to drum up business by whatever he hears from people in the back ground conversation. Doesn't that qualify as a schlock lawyer or something?

[Rayne]

I'll give you another one...from California in the mid 90's:
Man goes to rob a penthouse, falls through the skylight, lands on a kitchen table that had a butcher knife on it. He cuts himself. He sues the owner of the house, and wins.
California. *Roll your eyes here...*

[Jom112]

I am talking about the ban on trans fats. That is ridiculous. Bacon is bad for you to..hell, all fried foods are bad. Maybe NYC should ban all of the fried foods and just be done with it.
Yes there are medical issues relating to being obese but that really has nothing to do with ban on trans fats. If that was the case then NYC should ban more than just that, there are so many things that are bad for you I am sure NYC can turn everyone into vegans by force if needed.

I think you're missing part of the story about why NYC banned trans fat. There are a ton of other alternatives to Trans fat. The issues with obesity in this country is a lot worse than people think. And I for one support any legislation the help mitigate that problem. If you're wondering why I feel this way listen to this story:
My wife is a nurse in a pediatric unit. Yesterday she comes home and tells me about a patient in the hospital. He is an eight year old boy who weighs 91 kilos (about 200 pounds). And guess why he was admitted to the hospital? He had a STROKE! He's freaking eight years old!!! How is that kid supposed to know any better about what foods to eat? I hear stories day after day from my wife about how stupid some parents are.
I think it has gotten to the point that the government needs to step in to start fixing some of these issues. I'm more for nutrition labels and health awareness classes than laws banning certain foods, but I won't oppose the laws either though. Personally I'm on the heavier side myself so this is not a "looks" issue...

[kywcat]

I am talking about the ban on trans fats. That is ridiculous. Bacon is bad for you to..hell, all fried foods are bad. Maybe NYC should ban all of the fried foods and just be done with it.
Yes there are medical issues relating to being obese but that really has nothing to do with ban on trans fats. If that was the case then NYC should ban more than just that, there are so many things that are bad for you I am sure NYC can turn everyone into vegans by force if needed.

I think you're missing part of the story about why NYC banned trans fat. There are a ton of other alternatives to Trans fat. The issues with obesity in this country is a lot worse than people think. And I for one support any legislation the help mitigate that problem. If you're wondering why I feel this way listen to this story:
My wife is a nurse in a pediatric unit. Yesterday she comes home and tells me about a patient in the hospital. He is an eight year old boy who weights 91 kilos (almost 200 pounds). And guess why he was admitted to the hospital? He had a STROKE! He's freaking eight years old!!! How is that kid supposed to know any better about what foods to eat? I hear stories day after day from my wife about how stupid some parents are.
I think it has gotten to the point that the government needs to step in to start fixing some of these issues. I'm more for nutrition labels and health awareness classes than laws banning certain foods, but I won't oppose the laws either though. Personally I'm on the heavier side myself so this is not a "looks" issue...

This is a parenting issue not a transfat issue. The child is heavy because he eats too much of the wrong stuff and does not exercise. If the government bans all unhealthy foods it may help children like this but it will not eliminate the root cause. They will still eat what is there while not getting exercise and may end up in the same state they are in.
It goes back to many other comments stating the issue is with personal responsibility not with the outside influences. In this case the parent is not living up to their responsibility to insure a healthy lifestyle for their child and if a law was passed to punish parents it would probably have a better inpact then one against trans fats.

[Joe from Florence]

i don't think there is enough freedom....i think i should be allowed to go to work naked

[toyota24]

If people can't handle the responsiblity for their actions, should they be allowed to have them?


No they should not. To be completely honest, I've never been a huge fan of the freedom of speech either. It seems to cause a good deal more harm than good, because people are stupid. To quote Men in Black:

J: Why the big secret? People are smart, they can handle it.
K: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.


Yup. And it would be really dumb and panicky to take away the freedoms of responsible citizens just because of the fact that there are some idiots out there. Do you think there were no morons running around when the Constitiution was drafted? The founding fathers drew it up thinking we'd always be a nation of geniuses devoid of any possible mental weakness? Right.

[kywcat]

If people can't handle the responsiblity for their actions, should they be allowed to have them?


No they should not. To be completely honest, I've never been a huge fan of the freedom of speech either. It seems to cause a good deal more harm than good, because people are stupid. To quote Men in Black:

J: Why the big secret? People are smart, they can handle it.
K: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.


Yup. And it would be really dumb and panicky to take away the freedoms of responsible citizens just because of the fact that there are some idiots out there. Do you think there were no morons running around when the Constitiution was drafted? The founding fathers drew it up thinking we'd always be a nation of geniuses devoid of any possible mental weakness? Right.
No the founding father thought that the average person was not capable of making wise decisions. Thus we are a republic and not a democracy. you really don't vote in a president. You vote for a representative to form an electorial college to vote. They have the right to vote for any of the candidates whether it was their original charge or not. So everyone is created equal but the founding fathers thought some were more equal than others.

[kywcat]

i don't think there is enough freedom....i think i should be allowed to go to work naked
You may be on to something here.

[Jom112]

I am talking about the ban on trans fats. That is ridiculous. Bacon is bad for you to..hell, all fried foods are bad. Maybe NYC should ban all of the fried foods and just be done with it.
Yes there are medical issues relating to being obese but that really has nothing to do with ban on trans fats. If that was the case then NYC should ban more than just that, there are so many things that are bad for you I am sure NYC can turn everyone into vegans by force if needed.

I think you're missing part of the story about why NYC banned trans fat. There are a ton of other alternatives to Trans fat. The issues with obesity in this country is a lot worse than people think. And I for one support any legislation the help mitigate that problem. If you're wondering why I feel this way listen to this story:
My wife is a nurse in a pediatric unit. Yesterday she comes home and tells me about a patient in the hospital. He is an eight year old boy who weights 91 kilos (almost 200 pounds). And guess why he was admitted to the hospital? He had a STROKE! He's freaking eight years old!!! How is that kid supposed to know any better about what foods to eat? I hear stories day after day from my wife about how stupid some parents are.
I think it has gotten to the point that the government needs to step in to start fixing some of these issues. I'm more for nutrition labels and health awareness classes than laws banning certain foods, but I won't oppose the laws either though. Personally I'm on the heavier side myself so this is not a "looks" issue...

This is a parenting issue not a transfat issue. The child is heavy because he eats too much of the wrong stuff and does not exercise. If the government bans all unhealthy foods it may help children like this but it will not eliminate the root cause. They will still eat what is there while not getting exercise and may end up in the same state they are in.
It goes back to many other comments stating the issue is with personal responsibility not with the outside influences. In this case the parent is not living up to their responsibility to insure a healthy lifestyle for their child and if a law was passed to punish parents it would probably have a better inpact then one against trans fats.

I don't believe in banning foods either, that's not what I'm getting at. But trans fat isn't exactly a food. There are alternatives to using trans fat. So the banning of it can be justified IMO.
Plus you can hope all day that every parent knows how to raise a child properly but in too many cases thats not the case. It's easy to say who cares it's not my kid, but when you're the one paying for that eight year old boy's surgery because Illinois insures every child with health insurance it does become your issue.
So what do we do? Take away health insurance from kids because their parents don't raise them right and give them fatty foods? Or create laws to reduce unnecessary things like trans fat?
It's a catch 22 to say the least...

[Rayne]

Our founding fathers weren't stupid. They gave us all these rights with the knowledge that responsibility for these actions is simply understood. It's a given.
People now feel they are entitled to have the good without the bad - they want to smoke all their lives, but not get cancer. They want to have 6 sex partners a week - all unprotected - but not get pregnant or get an STD. They want to eat Big Macs 5 times a week, without excersizing - and still not gain weight. They want to run up $15,000 in credit card debt - and not pay it. They want to sell drugs on the street, but not get shot or go to jail.
People that think this "Freedom" means you can do whatever you want to do - consequence free, are in the wrong country. If anyone knows where that country is, let the rest of us know, will ya?
This country has the freedom that most people dream of having - Speech for example. You can speak out against Bush if you want to. Try speaking out against the Primeister of Iran in Iran, or against Kim Jong Il while you're in North Korea. You'll be shot.
But you have to take responsiblity for what you say, "Nappy headed hos" for example, or saying the word, "Bomb" on an airplane.
Remember, "Demolition man"? "I want to be free to run down the street naked, covered in jello while reading a Playboy. Know why? Because I might suddenly feel the need to, that's why". (The character played by Dennis Leary.) He's a lifelong smoker. He knows they're going to give him cancer and he expects that. "You could call them 'Tumors' and put a skull and crossbones right on the package - people would still buy them."
Maybe as part of the punishment for these people they should lose the freedom they can't handle. The guy that blames McDonalds for being fat, just lost the right to eat anything but health food. Hope you like carrots, dude. The guy that blames the cigarette companies for his cancer just lost the right to smoke or use tobacco in anyway.
If they can't handle the freedom, they shouldn't be allowed to have it.
Really, think of the freedoms we have. Born a man and don't want to be one? Become a woman, it's your right! Want to invent a device that scrambles an egg while still inside the shell? Go ahead! (Thank you, Ron Popelle). Want to invent an operating system for computors without ever owning a computer yourself? Go ahead. (Thank you, Bill Gates). Want to run for office? Go ahead - you might not win...but you can run.
Our freedoms here are almost limitless - as well they should be - this is the greatest country in the world. But the responsiblities are just as great.
Like Peter Parkers uncle said, "With great power comes great responsibility".
I just wish we all could kiss Kirsten Dunst while hanging upside down in the rain.

[Dayton_Bengal_Chic]

Like Peter Parkers uncle said, "With great power comes great responsibility".
I just wish we all could kiss Kirsten Dunst while hanging upside down in the rain.

Kirsten Dunst has a snaggle tooth. If you kiss her, you'll cut your lip...then you could sue her for a few million. LOL!

[kywcat]

Freedom is all relative but there are always prices to pay. One could jump off a cliff be free as bird right up until his death.

[Dr.Johnny Fever]

You are treadfing in deep water here. You are trying to correlate people's frivolous lawsuits with the freedoms we currently have.
I think this is dangerous. Everyday we see our freedoms disappear bit by bit. Whay can't I eat trans fats if I want too? Because New York City said I can't! Shouldn't they be more worried about the spread of venerial disease and the rampant teenage pregnancies that we have now in this country? Yes, but instead they decide to focus on what makes us fat and unhealthy. Should I not be allowed to decide if I want to be fat? Just because NYC says fat is ugly does not make it so!
Let's not even discuss the evaporating rigfhts of gun owners or the Freedom Act, which in and of itself is infringing on all of our privacy rights that so many before have died to protect.
Instead I think we should squash the frivolous lawsuits by having our representatives come up with a bill that will put an end to these lawsuits that are nothing more than get rich quick schemes.

I think the real problem may be big bussiness and government getting away with too much behind closed doors. These lawsuits are more common partly because of evolving frivolous litigation and the extortion that some insurance policies have become.

[toyota24]

I am talking about the ban on trans fats. That is ridiculous. Bacon is bad for you to..hell, all fried foods are bad. Maybe NYC should ban all of the fried foods and just be done with it.
Yes there are medical issues relating to being obese but that really has nothing to do with ban on trans fats. If that was the case then NYC should ban more than just that, there are so many things that are bad for you I am sure NYC can turn everyone into vegans by force if needed.

I think you're missing part of the story about why NYC banned trans fat. There are a ton of other alternatives to Trans fat. The issues with obesity in this country is a lot worse than people think. And I for one support any legislation the help mitigate that problem. If you're wondering why I feel this way listen to this story:
My wife is a nurse in a pediatric unit. Yesterday she comes home and tells me about a patient in the hospital. He is an eight year old boy who weights 91 kilos (almost 200 pounds). And guess why he was admitted to the hospital? He had a STROKE! He's freaking eight years old!!! How is that kid supposed to know any better about what foods to eat? I hear stories day after day from my wife about how stupid some parents are.
I think it has gotten to the point that the government needs to step in to start fixing some of these issues. I'm more for nutrition labels and health awareness classes than laws banning certain foods, but I won't oppose the laws either though. Personally I'm on the heavier side myself so this is not a "looks" issue...

This is a parenting issue not a transfat issue. The child is heavy because he eats too much of the wrong stuff and does not exercise. If the government bans all unhealthy foods it may help children like this but it will not eliminate the root cause. They will still eat what is there while not getting exercise and may end up in the same state they are in.
It goes back to many other comments stating the issue is with personal responsibility not with the outside influences. In this case the parent is not living up to their responsibility to insure a healthy lifestyle for their child and if a law was passed to punish parents it would probably have a better inpact then one against trans fats.

I don't believe in banning foods either, that's not what I'm getting at. But trans fat isn't exactly a food. There are alternatives to using trans fat. So the banning of it can be justified IMO.
Plus you can hope all day that every parent knows how to raise a child properly but in too many cases thats not the case. It's easy to say who cares it's not my kid, but when you're the one paying for that eight year old boy's surgery because Illinois insures every child with health insurance it does become your issue.
So what do we do? Take away health insurance from kids because their parents don't raise them right and give them fatty foods? Or create laws to reduce unnecessary things like trans fat?
It's a catch 22 to say the least...
The kid really can't help that his parents are stupid. He's an 8 year old, and eating garbage is probably all he'd ever known. I hated my parents for making me eat healthier foods when I was a kid. That is, until I turned about 16 and noticed that being in good shape was conductive to not being repulsive to the opposite sex. I tend to think nutrition could solve a whole lot of problems if the public at large took more notice. One personal example: I've always been in good shape, never overweight. I never overeat, as my appetite isn't real big. I've always eaten a lot of meat and grains. Earlier this year I decided to force myself to start eating lots of fruits and vegetables, which I've always reviled. Guess what? I feel better than I ever have, even when I was a teenager. My energy is through the roof and I haven't been sick since. No supplements, no vitamins, no meds, just eating better. Nutrition could, IMHO save a lot of people from the inevitable hell that awaits people in their latter years, not to mention offset some crazy medical expenses.

[oasiswr]

On a lighter note:

Bubba called his attorney and asked, "Is It true theys suin them cigarette companies fer causin People to git cancer ?"
"Yes, Bubba, sure is true," responded the lawyer.
"And now someone is suin them fast food restaurants Fer makin them fat an cloggin their arteries with all Them burgers an fries, is that true, Mista Lawyer?"
"Sure is, Bubba."
"And that lady sued McDonalds for millions when she Was gave that hot coffee that she ordered?"
"Yep."
"And that football player sued that university when he Gradiated and still couldn't read?"
"That's right," said the lawyer."
"But why are you asking?"
"Well, I was thinkin .... What I want to know is, kin I sue Beer componeys fer all them ugly women I slept with?"

Taa duuuh daaa daa[:O]

[Rayne]

On a lighter note:

Bubba called his attorney and asked, "Is It true theys suin them cigarette companies fer causin People to git cancer ?"
"Yes, Bubba, sure is true," responded the lawyer.
"And now someone is suin them fast food restaurants Fer makin them fat an cloggin their arteries with all Them burgers an fries, is that true, Mista Lawyer?"
"Sure is, Bubba."
"And that lady sued McDonalds for millions when she Was gave that hot coffee that she ordered?"
"Yep."
"And that football player sued that university when he Gradiated and still couldn't read?"
"That's right," said the lawyer."
"But why are you asking?"
"Well, I was thinkin .... What I want to know is, kin I sue Beer componeys fer all them ugly women I slept with?"

Taa duuuh daaa daa[:O]

Good one.
But....probably, yeah.

[Jasonew6]

It occured to me today that a minority of people in this country can't handle the freedom the were given by the founders of this nation, and the people that have bled on the battle field for it.
People CHOOSE to eat at McDonalds - then sue for getting fat. People CHOOSE to smoke cigarettes for 40 years, and sue for getting cancer. A guy spill coffee in his own lap at McDonalds, and sues because the coffee is too hot.
Then today....a woman committed suicide over her credit card debit - and her husband is sueing Discover.
Somewhere in the 90's, people stopped be held accountable for their own actions.
If people can't handle the responsiblity for their actions, should they be allowed to have them?

That was a woman actually, and was my uncle's (by marriage) mother.
Yes, there are a LOT of frivolous lawsuits. And a lot of idiots on juries. And I think there need to be changes in the legal system. But, in general, no, we do not have "too much freedom".

[BFan71]

Our founding fathers weren't stupid. They gave us all these rights with the knowledge that responsibility for these actions is simply understood. It's a given.
People now feel they are entitled to have the good without the bad - they want to smoke all their lives, but not get cancer. They want to have 6 sex partners a week - all unprotected - but not get pregnant or get an STD. They want to eat Big Macs 5 times a week, without excersizing - and still not gain weight. They want to run up $15,000 in credit card debt - and not pay it. They want to sell drugs on the street, but not get shot or go to jail.
People that think this "Freedom" means you can do whatever you want to do - consequence free, are in the wrong country. If anyone knows where that country is, let the rest of us know, will ya?
This country has the freedom that most people dream of having - Speech for example. You can speak out against Bush if you want to. Try speaking out against the Primeister of Iran in Iran, or against Kim Jong Il while you're in North Korea. You'll be shot.
But you have to take responsiblity for what you say, "Nappy headed hos" for example, or saying the word, "Bomb" on an airplane.
Remember, "Demolition man"? "I want to be free to run down the street naked, covered in jello while reading a Playboy. Know why? Because I might suddenly feel the need to, that's why". (The character played by Dennis Leary.) He's a lifelong smoker. He knows they're going to give him cancer and he expects that. "You could call them 'Tumors' and put a skull and crossbones right on the package - people would still buy them."
Maybe as part of the punishment for these people they should lose the freedom they can't handle. The guy that blames McDonalds for being fat, just lost the right to eat anything but health food. Hope you like carrots, dude. The guy that blames the cigarette companies for his cancer just lost the right to smoke or use tobacco in anyway.
If they can't handle the freedom, they shouldn't be allowed to have it.
Really, think of the freedoms we have. Born a man and don't want to be one? Become a woman, it's your right! Want to invent a device that scrambles an egg while still inside the shell? Go ahead! (Thank you, Ron Popelle). Want to invent an operating system for computors without ever owning a computer yourself? Go ahead. (Thank you, Bill Gates). Want to run for office? Go ahead - you might not win...but you can run.
Our freedoms here are almost limitless - as well they should be - this is the greatest country in the world. But the responsiblities are just as great.
Like Peter Parkers uncle said, "With great power comes great responsibility".
I just wish we all could kiss Kirsten Dunst while hanging upside down in the rain.


D@mn (D@mn) that was good. You speaketh the truth!

[Rayne]

Our founding fathers weren't stupid. They gave us all these rights with the knowledge that responsibility for these actions is simply understood. It's a given.
People now feel they are entitled to have the good without the bad - they want to smoke all their lives, but not get cancer. They want to have 6 sex partners a week - all unprotected - but not get pregnant or get an STD. They want to eat Big Macs 5 times a week, without excersizing - and still not gain weight. They want to run up $15,000 in credit card debt - and not pay it. They want to sell drugs on the street, but not get shot or go to jail.
People that think this "Freedom" means you can do whatever you want to do - consequence free, are in the wrong country. If anyone knows where that country is, let the rest of us know, will ya?
This country has the freedom that most people dream of having - Speech for example. You can speak out against Bush if you want to. Try speaking out against the Primeister of Iran in Iran, or against Kim Jong Il while you're in North Korea. You'll be shot.
But you have to take responsiblity for what you say, "Nappy headed hos" for example, or saying the word, "Bomb" on an airplane.
Remember, "Demolition man"? "I want to be free to run down the street naked, covered in jello while reading a Playboy. Know why? Because I might suddenly feel the need to, that's why". (The character played by Dennis Leary.) He's a lifelong smoker. He knows they're going to give him cancer and he expects that. "You could call them 'Tumors' and put a skull and crossbones right on the package - people would still buy them."
Maybe as part of the punishment for these people they should lose the freedom they can't handle. The guy that blames McDonalds for being fat, just lost the right to eat anything but health food. Hope you like carrots, dude. The guy that blames the cigarette companies for his cancer just lost the right to smoke or use tobacco in anyway.
If they can't handle the freedom, they shouldn't be allowed to have it.
Really, think of the freedoms we have. Born a man and don't want to be one? Become a woman, it's your right! Want to invent a device that scrambles an egg while still inside the shell? Go ahead! (Thank you, Ron Popelle). Want to invent an operating system for computors without ever owning a computer yourself? Go ahead. (Thank you, Bill Gates). Want to run for office? Go ahead - you might not win...but you can run.
Our freedoms here are almost limitless - as well they should be - this is the greatest country in the world. But the responsiblities are just as great.
Like Peter Parkers uncle said, "With great power comes great responsibility".
I just wish we all could kiss Kirsten Dunst while hanging upside down in the rain.


D@mn (D@mn) that was good. You speaketh the truth!

Thank you. [:)]

[BengalBubbs81]

Yes and no. You don't take away freedoms from people but you take away some of the the power around lawsuits. There are a ton of issues with the legal systems, most around frivolous lawsuits.
I remember my first experience with one (Not directly). My school went on a field trip to the local courthouse when I was in Jr. High. One of the guys giving the tour told us about a lawsuit where a group of kids were going "pool hoping". Essentially they just ran around and jumped in random peoples pools. One girl jumped into a pool that was empty and was severly paralyzed because of it. She send sued the owner of the house and WON, because the owner's fence wasn't the legal height.
If you put in laws such as a cap on medical liability lawsuits I think the system will be better. Yes it would **** to lose a family member due to a medical mistake but $50 Million isn't going to bring the person back, it just hurts the medical field...




Please, tell me you are kidding.

Otherwise, I might sue some of these people for my general loss of faith in humanity or just flat out making us all dumber.

I wish I was kidding. It's a completely messed up legal system we have...

At one time I used to be an insurance claims adjuster. All of this is true. It made me sick. It didnt take long to learn that peolpe will not take responsibility for anything. It is always someone elses fault & they need to be compensated for it. Juries are also getting out of hand even in traditionally conservative jurisdictions.

[BFan71]

Our founding fathers weren't stupid. They gave us all these rights with the knowledge that responsibility for these actions is simply understood. It's a given.
People now feel they are entitled to have the good without the bad - they want to smoke all their lives, but not get cancer. They want to have 6 sex partners a week - all unprotected - but not get pregnant or get an STD. They want to eat Big Macs 5 times a week, without excersizing - and still not gain weight. They want to run up $15,000 in credit card debt - and not pay it. They want to sell drugs on the street, but not get shot or go to jail.
People that think this "Freedom" means you can do whatever you want to do - consequence free, are in the wrong country. If anyone knows where that country is, let the rest of us know, will ya?
This country has the freedom that most people dream of having - Speech for example. You can speak out against Bush if you want to. Try speaking out against the Primeister of Iran in Iran, or against Kim Jong Il while you're in North Korea. You'll be shot.
But you have to take responsiblity for what you say, "Nappy headed hos" for example, or saying the word, "Bomb" on an airplane.
Remember, "Demolition man"? "I want to be free to run down the street naked, covered in jello while reading a Playboy. Know why? Because I might suddenly feel the need to, that's why". (The character played by Dennis Leary.) He's a lifelong smoker. He knows they're going to give him cancer and he expects that. "You could call them 'Tumors' and put a skull and crossbones right on the package - people would still buy them."
Maybe as part of the punishment for these people they should lose the freedom they can't handle. The guy that blames McDonalds for being fat, just lost the right to eat anything but health food. Hope you like carrots, dude. The guy that blames the cigarette companies for his cancer just lost the right to smoke or use tobacco in anyway.
If they can't handle the freedom, they shouldn't be allowed to have it.
Really, think of the freedoms we have. Born a man and don't want to be one? Become a woman, it's your right! Want to invent a device that scrambles an egg while still inside the shell? Go ahead! (Thank you, Ron Popelle). Want to invent an operating system for computors without ever owning a computer yourself? Go ahead. (Thank you, Bill Gates). Want to run for office? Go ahead - you might not win...but you can run.
Our freedoms here are almost limitless - as well they should be - this is the greatest country in the world. But the responsiblities are just as great.
Like Peter Parkers uncle said, "With great power comes great responsibility".
I just wish we all could kiss Kirsten Dunst while hanging upside down in the rain.


D@mn (D@mn) that was good. You speaketh the truth!

Thank you. [:)]

No, thank you! [;)]