what does everyone think of this

[kdubdj]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

this is what makes me mad about the world today. i am of no particular religion. i was raised catholic and dropped that title as soon as i was allowed to stop attending church. I think things like this are what drove me away. A nation that is suppposed to represent freedom fighting for freedom for someone else and then pressing their bliefs upon them. this is why we are not able and will not be able to get along with the middle east or the rest of the world. we always think we are right.

how many other religions have missonaries? why does nobody else feel a need to press beliefs on others.

just bugs me is all. what does everyone else think

[kevin28_1962]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

this is what makes me mad about the world today. i am of no particular religion. i was raised catholic and dropped that title as soon as i was allowed to stop attending church. I think things like this are what drove me away. A nation that is suppposed to represent freedom fighting for freedom for someone else and then pressing their bliefs upon them. this is why we are not able and will not be able to get along with the middle east or the rest of the world. we always think we are right.

how many other religions have missonaries? why does nobody else feel a need to press beliefs on others.

just bugs me is all. what does everyone else think

What you describe is proselytism (at least that's what I think you're saying) which is forcing their religion upon them and trying coersive measure to make them convert. Believe it or not some other religions do just exactly that, such as hold a sword to your head and either you say you believe as them or you die by the sword. Christians on the other hand evangelize, which is spread the word of Jesus and salvation....big difference. The biggest group that I see with missionaries going out to try to convert would be the Church of the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) which I do not consider to be true Christians, based on their doctrinal views.

and there you have my opinion.

[thefo0]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

this is what makes me mad about the world today. i am of no particular religion. i was raised catholic and dropped that title as soon as i was allowed to stop attending church. I think things like this are what drove me away. A nation that is suppposed to represent freedom fighting for freedom for someone else and then pressing their bliefs upon them. this is why we are not able and will not be able to get along with the middle east or the rest of the world. we always think we are right.

how many other religions have missonaries? why does nobody else feel a need to press beliefs on others.

just bugs me is all. what does everyone else think

I'm with you. I don't think that the marine has the right to act in such a manner when he is serving as a representative of the United States. We are having a hard enough of a time trying to convince the world that this isn't the Crusades Redux. I'm not particularly religious either, but if he wanted to do this when he wasn't part of our military, it is his right.

It also amazes me how disrespectful some people can be in terms of someone else's faith. The sniper story really bothered me. If their was an Iraqi citizen acting the same way, the soldiers would say that they were being blatantly disrespected. I just wish that people would admit that they aren't in possession of the entire truth. There is no way to prove that anything is 100% right. Faith, if you have it, is a wonderful and beautiful thing, but I think that with faith, one should admit that they may not necessarily be right and that what works for them, may not work for others. Then again, I'm trying to go against millenia of religious intolerance on a message board (probably won't work).

Time for me to leave the soap box and go to Jungle Noise and see who people think we should cut now.

[kdubdj]

What you describe is proselytism (at least that's what I think you're saying) which is forcing their religion upon them and trying coersive measure to make them convert. Believe it or not some other religions do just exactly that, such as hold a sword to your head and either you say you believe as them or you die by the sword. Christians on the other hand evangelize, which is spread the word of Jesus and salvation....big difference. The biggest group that I see with missionaries going out to try to convert would be the Church of the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) which I do not consider to be true Christians, based on their doctrinal views.

and there you have my opinion.


i can see what you are saying. what i am saying is if the USA were iraq and they were here helping us, would u like it if they were handing out islamic pamphelts on your way into church? the point is, they have no reason to be handing out anything to do with religion.

[Jasonew6]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

this is what makes me mad about the world today. i am of no particular religion. i was raised catholic and dropped that title as soon as i was allowed to stop attending church. I think things like this are what drove me away. A nation that is suppposed to represent freedom fighting for freedom for someone else and then pressing their bliefs upon them. this is why we are not able and will not be able to get along with the middle east or the rest of the world. we always think we are right.

how many other religions have missonaries? why does nobody else feel a need to press beliefs on others.

just bugs me is all. what does everyone else think

1. How is handing out a Christian coin "forcing" their religion on anyone? Unlike muslim countries which throw you in jail, or worse, just for having a bible, let alone being a Christian.
2. Jesus commanded his followers to "share their faith" with the world.
3. If you really believed someone was going to hel_, and that you could help keep them out, why wouldn't you?

[kevin28_1962]

i can see what you are saying. what i am saying is if the USA were iraq and they were here helping us, would u like it if they were handing out islamic pamphelts on your way into church? the point is, they have no reason to be handing out anything to do with religion.

Ok, the issue isn't that because the marine is a Christian and handing out tracts, it's that he is a representative for the US and handing them out.

I dont know if they have regulations against it, but the last timne I was over in the gulf region, Bahrain and Jordan (that was way back in 2001) we were told not to get into religious discussions with the locals. But I beliee all the other times I was over there in Kuwait, Saudi and Turkey we were told the same thing, not to get into religious discussion with them as so not to offend them. Some one who has been over there more recently may be able to answer if it is still a no-no.

[kdubdj]

1. How is handing out a Christian coin "forcing" their religion on anyone? Unlike muslim countries which throw you in jail, or worse, just for having a bible, let alone being a Christian.
2. Jesus commanded his followers to "share their faith" with the world.
3. If you really believed someone was going to hel_, and that you could help keep them out, why wouldn't you?

read the post above yours and see how you would feel in that context. in many peoples' eyes, religion started the whole terroist movement. it has been a driving point througout this war. The propoganda that has been flying around has left people with a bad impression of muslim beliefs . religion started this war and religion will continue to cause war. It has been the root of many lives lost throughout history and will contribute to more down the line if things like this continue to happen. just think about all the bad things religion has caused in this world. let people believe what they believe and go about your day. share when asked to share, dont consider it a duty.

[barryllium]

i can see what you are saying. what i am saying is if the USA were iraq and they were here helping us, would u like it if they were handing out islamic pamphelts on your way into church? the point is, they have no reason to be handing out anything to do with religion.

I'm with you on this. I understand evangelizing - but there's two other things at play here: a need for common sense and respect for other's beliefs. You don't just walk over to the closest mosque in Baghdad to evangelize - that's not how it works, and in fact could very easily be seen as provocation. And, it does not at all (as you said) respect the strong beliefs of those at the mosque - beliefs that deserve just as much respect as any other persons.

Besides, I thought we were fixing their government, not their religion (and, since many people seem to be confused, those are not the same thing).

[Jasonew6]

read the post above yours and see how you would feel in that context. in many peoples' eyes, religion started the whole terroist movement. it has been a driving point througout this war. The propoganda that has been flying around has left people with a bad impression of muslim beliefs . religion started this war and religion will continue to cause war. It has been the root of many lives lost throughout history and will contribute to more down the line if things like this continue to happen. just think about all the bad things religion has caused in this world. let people believe what they believe and go about your day. share when asked to share, dont consider it a duty.

If someone handed me a pamphlet on Islam, I would not be bothered at all. Now, if someone told me I'd go to jail if I weren't a Muslim, I'd be seriously bothered.

[kevin28_1962]

Besides, I thought we were fixing their government, not their religion (and, since many people seem to be confused, those are not the same thing).

over there they pretty much go hand-in-hand. Shiites versus Sunni for "control".

[barryllium]

If someone handed me a pamphlet on Islam, I would not be bothered at all. Now, if someone told me I'd go to jail if I weren't a Muslim, I'd be seriously bothered.

At the moment, though, I think many Iraqi citizens are scared they are going to lose their way of life because of the presence of American troops. Under those circumstances, I can see it being very bothersome having Christianity pushed upon them.

[barryllium]

over there they pretty much go hand-in-hand. Shiites versus Sunni for "control".

I'm referring to both our government and what we are trying to install over there, though.

[kevin28_1962]

I'm referring to both our government and what we are trying to install over there, though.

I knew what you meant, not arguing with you. just wanted to add that their "government" is pretty much different sects of thier religion.

I dont know why it is that "we" had to go over there in the first place to "fix" their government. I realize Saddam was a dictator in every sense of the word but why was it necessary that "we" have to step in and make their government reflect our will?

[Jasonew6]

At the moment, though, I think many Iraqi citizens are scared they are going to lose their way of life because of the presence of American troops. Under those circumstances, I can see it being very bothersome having Christianity pushed upon them.

He was handing out a coin, that's a long way from pushing anything on anyone.

[kevin28_1962]

He was handing out a coin, that's a long way from pushing anything on anyone.

You have to think of it in this way; He's a representative of the US and if the locals get offended by the message he is handing out it reflects badly against the US. They view it as the US is trying to convert them away from their own religious beliefs and think of us as "invaders" trying to occupy their land when supposedly we are just trying to stabilize the region by providing them with democracy for self government.

[BANJAXED]

I'm with you on this. I understand evangelizing - but there's two other things at play here: a need for common sense and respect for other's beliefs. You don't just walk over to the closest mosque in Baghdad to evangelize - that's not how it works, and in fact could very easily be seen as provocation. And, it does not at all (as you said) respect the strong beliefs of those at the mosque - beliefs that deserve just as much respect as any other persons.

Besides, I thought we were fixing their government, not their religion (and, since many people seem to be confused, those are not the same thing).

Exactly. Think about how passionate people are of their religion(s) here in the states an heighten that even more so in the Middle-East (mostly if not all due to it being the birth place of "Allah"). With major religious tension already coupled with the obvious military presence - that last thing we need to be doing is "alienating any of our allies".

While here in the USA the majority views: Government > God. It is completely the opposite in the Middle East - hence all of the continual fighting/wars/etc.

Stupid move.

[kevin28_1962]

While here in the USA the majority views: Government > God.


I must be in the minority then because Government is not greater than God to me.

[barryllium]

He was handing out a coin, that's a long way from pushing anything on anyone.

By itself, it's not pushing. In combination with all the other US involvement going on over there, it is. The one familiarity that many Iraqi's have in their lives right now (other than violence, sadly) is religion - and when that is what you have to cling to, someone handing you a "christianity" coin can seem a lot more dramatic than it would be under normal circumstances.

On top of that, it's important to realize that many middle eastern countries (or, at least, a significant number of the people living there) disagree with the western civilization, and feel as if America is pushing it on them already. This is just another example, for them, of this happening. Their religion is a strong part of who they are - when we try to change that, we try to change a large part of them.

[jamiethelanky]

A gilded invitation for more terror. It's just the stupid feeding the extremists. Respect culture, you are there to fight for the Armed Forces not to convert a country.

[a6pk2go]

I believe if you walk the walk then your actions will speak louder than your words.
My belief is to Preach the Gospel and if necessary use words. WALK IT FIRST.........people are watching all the time.

[devils advocate]

This guy is first and foremost a marine,a representative of the American government and people.A message being sent to the people of Iraq and Muslims in general is that we are perpetuating a crusade.This is a strong message being sent by Muslim extremists and one that hits home with alot of people in the middle east.

This guy is not suppose to be there in the name of god.

Adding fuel to the fire should be grounds for court martial,because he is putting his fellow soldiers at even more risk.He might as well be handing out bibles.

The act of handing out anything that has to do with Christianity is pushing it,at least this is how they will see it.How is this not pushing Christianity?

If Ahmed El Amir were to hand out these coins instead of G.I. Joe,he would be perceived as promoting Christianity,which in some places over there is strictly forbidden,right or wrong it is their law, and may be put to death.
At minimum,this is a disrespectful act and to my knowledge,all soldiers are instructed to respect the local beliefs.

[BANJAXED]

I must be in the minority then because Government is not greater than God to me.

People justify killings "in the name of Allah" over there - we justify it by saying "it's the government's orders".

[barryllium]

People justify killings "in the name of Allah" over there - we justify it by saying "it's the government's orders".

Very interesting take - very interesting indeed. Sad, but I think this to be the truth.

[Jumbro]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

this is what makes me mad about the world today. i am of no particular religion. i was raised catholic and dropped that title as soon as i was allowed to stop attending church. I think things like this are what drove me away. A nation that is suppposed to represent freedom fighting for freedom for someone else and then pressing their bliefs upon them. this is why we are not able and will not be able to get along with the middle east or the rest of the world. we always think we are right.

how many other religions have missonaries? why does nobody else feel a need to press beliefs on others.

just bugs me is all. what does everyone else think

Missionaries bring a HELL of a lot more to the table than beliefs. They bring school buildings to students who wouldn't have them, along with the materials needed. They bring food....they bring love...they bring medicine.

DO you REALLY think Mother Theresa did what she did for Catholicism? Now she did it for those people because she knew it was what God wanter her to do.

Oh, and MANY churches have missionaries that go to poorer areas (some within the boarders, most outside) and help the people of those areas survive and make better lives for themselves.

[barryllium]

Missionaries bring a HELL of a lot more to the table than beliefs. They bring school buildings to students who wouldn't have them, along with the materials needed. They bring food....they bring love...they bring medicine.

DO you REALLY think Mother Theresa did what she did for Catholicism? Now she did it for those people because she knew it was what God wanter her to do.

Oh, and MANY churches have missionaries that go to poorer areas (some within the boarders, most outside) and help the people of those areas survive and make better lives for themselves.

Your points are all good ones - and definitely apply to the original poster's missionary position... :ninja:

In the end, though, this soldier is not a missionary - I'm glad you were able to point out the differences between missionaries and this person.

[Jumbro]

If someone handed me a pamphlet on Islam, I would not be bothered at all. Now, if someone told me I'd go to jail if I weren't a Muslim, I'd be seriously bothered.

During the summer I get AT LEAST one pamphlet on my doorstep. usually just use them to start my fires though! Sure as heck doesn't upset me.

I must say, putting a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the front yard (as is a tradition in my family, to have one in the front or back garden areas) has kept a few churches away recently. At least she isn't 100 feet tall and built out of butter.

[kevin28_1962]

Your points are all good ones - and definitely apply to the original poster's missionary position... :ninja:

hehehe.....you said missionary position...hehehe

[philhos]

Funny story:

I was home alone one Saturday morning in my late teens and was still lounging around the house in my boxers and no shirt on (I was no Will Smith back then - I am white after all - but I was no John Candy either). Suddenly and without warning (from the American Association's Department of Dedundancy Department of American Association), there was a knock on the doorbell (why they didn't just press it, I don't know).

I went and there were 2 little old ladies eyeballing my beautifully non-sculpted body. They were Jehovah's Witnesses. They asked if they could come inside. "Suuuuuuure," I said with a wink. For some reason, I don't think they liked my tone 'cause they just turned around and left.

True story (names, which I didn't use, were changed to protect the innocent - though they were really guilty, of breaking my heart).

[kevin28_1962]

Funny story:

I was home alone one Saturday morning in my late teens and was still lounging around the house in my boxers and no shirt on (I was no Will Smith back then - I am white after all - but I was no John Candy either). Suddenly and without warning (from the American Association's Department of Dedundancy Department of American Association), there was a knock on the doorbell (why they didn't just press it, I don't know).

I went and there were 2 little old ladies eyeballing my beautifully non-sculpted body. They were Jehovah's Witnesses. They asked if they could come inside. "Suuuuuuure," I said with a wink. For some reason, I don't think they liked my tone 'cause they just turned around and left.

True story (names, which I didn't use, were changed to protect the innocent - though they were really guilty, of breaking my heart).

:rotf:

Another true story. One of the guys that worked for me years ago had his parents living with him because they had health issues. Well his mother was a very religious woman and she read the Bible and studied it all the time. They had some Johavah's Witnesses come to the door asking if they could talk with them. Well his mother invited them in and a couple hours later the missionaries were trying their darndest to get away from her. She kept at them about what the Bible says and they would counter then she would counter, etc, etc, etc. He said they never had any Johavah's Witnesses come to his house ever again.

[barryllium]

Funny story:

I was home alone one Saturday morning in my late teens and was still lounging around the house in my boxers and no shirt on (I was no Will Smith back then - I am white after all - but I was no John Candy either). Suddenly and without warning (from the American Association's Department of Dedundancy Department of American Association), there was a knock on the doorbell (why they didn't just press it, I don't know).

I went and there were 2 little old ladies eyeballing my beautifully non-sculpted body. They were Jehovah's Witnesses. They asked if they could come inside. "Suuuuuuure," I said with a wink. For some reason, I don't think they liked my tone 'cause they just turned around and left.

True story (names, which I didn't use, were changed to protect the innocent - though they were really guilty, of breaking my heart).

Dude, Skeet's grandma hasn't been the same since... :rotf:

[Corrupt3d]

Lemme just put it this way fellas:


We believe that if you convert from Islam TO another religion, you're pretty much damned for life. People might think its a wrong idea, but meh, no one has complained drastically and a lot of people have still converted.

I think Missionaries are completely and utterly wrong. You basically go somewhere and say "let me help you, then let me convert you", as if the big three religions are playing a numbers race. Personally, I dont want anyone telling me that they have found enlightenment when I'm content with my own.

[jmccracky]

If someone handed me a pamphlet on Islam, I would not be bothered at all. Now, if someone told me I'd go to jail if I weren't a Muslim, I'd be seriously bothered.

So, do you think it is alright for people to hand out bibles to other people's kids during Halloween? Sometimes they sneak 'em in kids' candy bags. What if I started handing out books that are anti religion during trick or treat?

I think that people shouldn't push their religious beliefs onto others. I have no problem with advertising the times that you have church service and things of that nature, but when someone gives one of those creepy "You're going to burn in heck" or "The end of the world is near" pamphlets, to my daughter (this happened and she is only 6), then I'm a little offended.

I dunno.....it's hard to say......

[bengal_prideforlife]

i can see what you are saying. what i am saying is if the USA were iraq and they were here helping us, would u like it if they were handing out islamic pamphelts on your way into church? the point is, they have no reason to be handing out anything to do with religion.It is our job to tell the WORLD and EVERYONE in it that Jesus died so that they can escape an eternity in hell....if we dont do that we are in fact disobedient servants....that is how we spiritually bare fruit for the Lord....souls....who are we when the King comes looking for a harvest to be barren....we in fact MUST preach the Gospel...it gets us stoned and ridiculed but thats ok that is just part of end time prophecy....the great thing is....though it may get on your nerves all you have to do is deny it and walk away....there is no reason to be upset or mad at us we are only doing what we feel God has called us to do....and facts are Christianity does a lot more to help people than to hurt people so tell me just WHAT is your issue with us?

[devils advocate]

If preaching the gospel got us stoned,I think I would know!

[Alias]

i can see what you are saying. what i am saying is if the USA were iraq and they were here helping us, would u like it if they were handing out islamic pamphelts on your way into church? the point is, they have no reason to be handing out anything to do with religion.

I honestly wouldn't really care either way. I don't entirely understand the mentality behind all this. "You're giving me something that has contrary beliefs...AHH!!!!! My religion is being attacked!" Makes no sense at all.

[bengal_prideforlife]

If preaching the gospel got us stoned,I think I would know!Just because you dont see it doesnt mean it does not happen....happens more than you know....

[bengal_prideforlife]

Just because you dont see it doesnt mean it does not happen....happens more than you know....I have MANY MANY more of these if you doubt that christians are not being killed and stoned simply for being christians....




On April 15, Pastor Vic Vicera, his wife, Beth; and Pastor were shot at when an unknown assailant stormed Pastor Vicera’s home in Mindanao, Philippines, and started shooting. Pastor Vicera was killed in the attack.

According to The Voice of the Martyrs contacts, “Pastor Vic and his wife, Beth, and Pastor Noli were having a conversation early that evening. They were talking about their plans to minister in a Muslim tribal area, when suddenly the killer came in and started firing at them.”

VOM contacts added, “Pastor Vic got four gunshots, two at the upper part of the knees that went through his navel and two shots to the lower part of his knees, the bullets remained in his stomach. Beth, his wife, got two gunshots, one in her palm and one in her leg. Pastor Saturnino got one shot in his leg; the bullet went through his leg.” Pastor Vic was killed, and Beth and Saturnino are being treated by doctors.

Even though VOM contacts could not confirm the reason for the attack, they reported that Pastor Vic lived among Muslims who wanted him to join Islam, but he refused. “Earlier in the week, my wife and I went to their [Pastor Vic’s] house and talked about the ministry. Their house is surrounded by Muslim houses. I heard before that there were Muslims wanting Pastor Vic to join the Islam faith, but he refused. [At] this time we still don’t know those responsible for his death, but some said that Muslims are responsible,” a VOM contact said.

The Voice of the Martyrs encourages you to pray for believers in the Philippines who face persecution because of their faith. Pray especially for the family and congregation of Pastor Vicera, who have lost a father and pastor. Ask God to heal Pastor Vicera’s wife, Beth, and Pastor Saturnino who were injured in the attack. Pray the testimonies of these faithful believers will draw their persecutors into fellowship with Christ.

[kevin28_1962]

If preaching the gospel got us stoned,I think I would know!

stoned as in the literal sense not the narcotics sense.

[xxlt]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

this is what makes me mad about the world today. i am of no particular religion. i was raised catholic and dropped that title as soon as i was allowed to stop attending church. I think things like this are what drove me away. A nation that is suppposed to represent freedom fighting for freedom for someone else and then pressing their bliefs upon them. this is why we are not able and will not be able to get along with the middle east or the rest of the world. we always think we are right.

how many other religions have missonaries? why does nobody else feel a need to press beliefs on others.

just bugs me is all. what does everyone else think

Well, at least one Marine figured out how to get himself out or Iraq. Maybe people should start putting John 3:16 coins in their care packages to the troops. If everyone stationed in Iraq started handing out the coins maybe they would finally bring all the troops home.

[xxlt]

I honestly wouldn't really care either way. I don't entirely understand the mentality behind all this. "You're giving me something that has contrary beliefs...AHH!!!!! My religion is being attacked!" Makes no sense at all.

Whether it is logical or not ("makes no sense at all") it has clearly been an issue in the past or it there wouldn't be a military regulation against it (prosletyzing).

It is really funny how people (not necessarily you, alias) will overlook a soldier's killing and say "he was just doing a soldier's job" and "he was following orders." But, when he is not following other orders he isn't expected to and it is minimized (in this case, alias is an example) by saying "I..wouldn't really care either way."

It just seems like if we can expect soldiers to take a human life (or many lives) in the course of following orders we can and should expect them to respect the culture and religion of those around them (GI and civilian) in the course of following orders. This seems particularly true when the soldiers (through no fault of their own - they just followed orders) are part of what is arguably an illegal occupation that followed what was arguably an illegal invasion. Prosletyzing violates military regulation; soldiers shouldn't do it. One member has said, 'God's law trumps man's' in another thread. I am sure many agree. The result of that thinking is suicide bombers and soldiers handing out bibles and coins. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

Shalom. Mir. Peace.

[devils advocate]

I understood what was meant.Guess it wasn't that funny[I thought it was]

Anywhoo,xxlt makes a good point,maybe they should pass out coins,crosses and bibles to relieve themselves of duty,it would make Cpl. Klinger proud.

And,as it has been pointed out,the soldiers are particuliarly instructed not to do things like this from jump.The desicion to join the armed forces is the decision to follow orders.It is also the decision to place country before god,at least during war.

I wonder if this soldier would be so apt to pass out coins in say,Kosovo,where the Muslim religion is growing at a fast pace,though terrorism is not as big of a problem,at least the way we've come to understand terrorism thus far.

If this guy,or anybody wants to spead Christianity there are more appropriate outlets to do so that doesn't include taxpayers money,or representing the country as a whole.

[xxlt]

Funny story:

I was home alone one Saturday morning in my late teens and was still lounging around the house in my boxers and no shirt on (I was no Will Smith back then - I am white after all - but I was no John Candy either). Suddenly and without warning (from the American Association's Department of Dedundancy Department of American Association), there was a knock on the doorbell (why they didn't just press it, I don't know).

I went and there were 2 little old ladies eyeballing my beautifully non-sculpted body. They were Jehovah's Witnesses. They asked if they could come inside. "Suuuuuuure," I said with a wink. For some reason, I don't think they liked my tone 'cause they just turned around and left.

True story (names, which I didn't use, were changed to protect the innocent - though they were really guilty, of breaking my heart).

Careful! You might offend someone! :sarcasm:

[xxlt]

It is our job to tell the WORLD and EVERYONE in it that Jesus died so that they can escape an eternity in hell....if we dont do that we are in fact disobedient servants....that is how we spiritually bare fruit for the Lord....souls....who are we when the King comes looking for a harvest to be barren....we in fact MUST preach the Gospel...it gets us stoned and ridiculed but thats ok that is just part of end time prophecy....the great thing is....though it may get on your nerves all you have to do is deny it and walk away....there is no reason to be upset or mad at us we are only doing what we feel God has called us to do....and facts are Christianity does a lot more to help people than to hurt people so tell me just WHAT is your issue with us?

I don't think this is what Marvin, in whom we trust, meant when he said, "Do your job."

And then there is this, Matthew 6:6 (not 666, just 6:6) "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which sees in secret shall reward you openly."

Which just "proves" what I have always said: Jesus didn't have one iota of a problem with the homosexuals who came out of the closet, but he wanted his followers in the closet. Actually I never said that until now, but I will start saying it more often.

[xxlt]

I understood what was meant.Guess it wasn't that funny[I thought it was]

Anywhoo,xxlt makes a good point,maybe they should pass out coins,crosses and bibles to relieve themselves of duty,it would make Cpl. Klinger proud.

And,as it has been pointed out,the soldiers are particuliarly instructed not to do things like this from jump.The desicion to join the armed forces is the decision to follow orders.It is also the decision to place country before god,at least during war.

I wonder if this soldier would be so apt to pass out coins in say,Kosovo,where the Muslim religion is growing at a fast pace,though terrorism is not as big of a problem,at least the way we've come to understand terrorism thus far.

If this guy,or anybody wants to spead Christianity there are more appropriate outlets to do so that doesn't include taxpayers money,or representing the country as a whole.

The guy joined the USMC, not the 39th Street Church of Your Denomination. He could have been a missionary, but he joined the Corps. When he is discharged, retires, or gets out of the brig and returns to civilian life he can still be a missionary. But as one of "the few, the proud" you are not a soldier in Christ's Army. Ironic, I am sure to many, but those are the rules.

[bengal_prideforlife]

I don't think this is what Marvin, in whom we trust, meant when he said, "Do your job."

And then there is this, Matthew 6:6 (not 666, just 6:6) "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which sees in secret shall reward you openly."

Which just "proves" what I have always said: Jesus didn't have one iota of a problem with the homosexuals who came out of the closet, but he wanted his followers in the closet. Actually I never said that until now, but I will start saying it more often.This scripture speaks to humility....but use it how you want.....but for the record that made NO sense and did not help your argument in the least....but whatever take one scripture and make an argument while ignoring the hundreds scriptures that say to preach the Gospel....clueless

[jmccracky]

So, do you think it is alright for people to hand out bibles to other people's kids during Halloween? Sometimes they sneak 'em in kids' candy bags. What if I started handing out books that are anti religion during trick or treat?

I think that people shouldn't push their religious beliefs onto others. I have no problem with advertising the times that you have church service and things of that nature, but when someone gives one of those creepy "You're going to burn in heck" or "The end of the world is near" pamphlets, to my daughter (this happened and she is only 6), then I'm a little offended.

I dunno.....it's hard to say......

:hmm::ninja::hmm:

[kevin28_1962]

I don't think this is what Marvin, in whom we trust, meant when he said, "Do your job."

And then there is this, Matthew 6:6 (not 666, just 6:6) "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which sees in secret shall reward you openly."

Which just "proves" what I have always said: Jesus didn't have one iota of a problem with the homosexuals who came out of the closet, but he wanted his followers in the closet. Actually I never said that until now, but I will start saying it more often.

Well that certainly is some serious scripture twisting.

I'm sorry but you are taking that verse out of context. You cannot take any verse and divorce it from any other verse around it. The context of that particular portion of Matthew 6 from which you have plucked that verse is Jesus teaching of prayer. The point being made is that some people, especially the religious leaders liked to pray in public because they wanted to seem as "holy", and public display or prayer was a way to get attention. Jesus saw through their self-righteousness acts and taught that the essence of prayer is not public style but through a private communication with God. There was a place for public prayer but to pray only where others will notice you indicates that your real audience is not God.

Following is the verses around what xxlt plucked out(Matt 6: 5-15 NKJV);

5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If you're going to quote scripture please give it the honor of quoting it in the correct context.

[Alias]

Whether it is logical or not ("makes no sense at all") it has clearly been an issue in the past or it there wouldn't be a military regulation against it (prosletyzing).

It is really funny how people (not necessarily you, alias) will overlook a soldier's killing and say "he was just doing a soldier's job" and "he was following orders." But, when he is not following other orders he isn't expected to and it is minimized (in this case, alias is an example) by saying "I..wouldn't really care either way."

It just seems like if we can expect soldiers to take a human life (or many lives) in the course of following orders we can and should expect them to respect the culture and religion of those around them (GI and civilian) in the course of following orders. This seems particularly true when the soldiers (through no fault of their own - they just followed orders) are part of what is arguably an illegal occupation that followed what was arguably an illegal invasion. Prosletyzing violates military regulation; soldiers shouldn't do it. One member has said, 'God's law trumps man's' in another thread. I am sure many agree. The result of that thinking is suicide bombers and soldiers handing out bibles and coins. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

Shalom. Mir. Peace.

Yeah. I got to thinking more about the question of "how would you feel," and it occurred to me that I may have taken offense if I the person distributing the religious texts was part of an occupying force, and I had any sort of fear that they may be taking over the country.

As for the soldier disobeying military rules in order to obey a command from God...I'm torn about it, honestly. As a Christian, I know that my allegiance must lie first to God, then to my country. (There are verses that basically say "your citizenship is in heaven, not this world). However, there are also many verses saying to obey the authority of your government unless they contradict the laws of God. The question for me is whether or not following the military orders to not pass out religious stuff goes against the command from God to spread the gospel to all nations.

I don't know right now, honestly.

[tbone77]

If someone handed me a pamphlet on Islam, I would not be bothered at all. Now, if someone told me I'd go to jail if I weren't a Muslim, I'd be seriously bothered.

Yea but it's a whole different story when they invade and occupy your country, set up checkpoints, and supposedly torture and kill some of your fellow citizens.

It seems harmless, but it was a very bad move. That's why the military has clamped down on it.

Especially if he was wearing a military uniform, he unwittingly became a proselytizer sponsored by the military, a crusader. And that tears the scab off a very old wound. I think a lot of people over there don't forget things as easily as we do.

[xxlt]

Well that certainly is some serious scripture twisting.

I'm sorry but you are taking that verse out of context. You cannot take any verse and divorce it from any other verse around it. The context of that particular portion of Matthew 6 from which you have plucked that verse is Jesus teaching of prayer. The point being made is that some people, especially the religious leaders liked to pray in public because they wanted to seem as "holy", and public display or prayer was a way to get attention. Jesus saw through their self-righteousness acts and taught that the essence of prayer is not public style but through a private communication with God. There was a place for public prayer but to pray only where others will notice you indicates that your real audience is not God.

Following is the verses around what xxlt plucked out(Matt 6: 5-15 NKJV);

5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If you're going to quote scripture please give it the honor of quoting it in the correct context.

Well, I was already told that the verse I "plucked" is about "humility." I actually think your interpretation makes a lot more sense than "this speaks to humility." I highlighted in bold above an observation that, believe it or not, was not stunning to me. I know this quite well, but I could now say, "yeah but that is only Matt 6:5-15, what about the rest of chapter six or the rest of Matthew, for that matter?"

But I won't say that. I will agree with you that context is important, but not just as it relates to surrounding verses. You also so have to consider the historical and cultural contexts in which these stories were told, which many would rather not do. And you also have to consider translation. The translation I used said "closet." The one you used said "room." Does it matter? Well, it depends on who is interpreting.

Now I agree with you that the passage in general is an instruction on prayer and not a call to humility. But, when I quoted the single "plucked" verse I didn't say it wasn't an instruction on prayer. In fact I implied that it was, and I believe it was, so you really didn't enlighten me. You agreed with me that the verse is an instruction on prayer, as are the surrounding verses. So, pluck though I did I assigned the verse the same meaning that you assigned to it and those around it. I hope this doesn't make you feel like you need to be ritually cleansed or prayed over, but you really reenforced my point. Also in bold in your post that I am replying to.So, I guess the "humility" guy thinks you are "clueless" too.

[xxlt]

Yeah. I got to thinking more about the question of "how would you feel," and it occurred to me that I may have taken offense if I the person distributing the religious texts was part of an occupying force, and I had any sort of fear that they may be taking over the country.

As for the soldier disobeying military rules in order to obey a command from God...I'm torn about it, honestly. As a Christian, I know that my allegiance must lie first to God, then to my country. (There are verses that basically say "your citizenship is in heaven, not this world). However, there are also many verses saying to obey the authority of your government unless they contradict the laws of God. The question for me is whether or not following the military orders to not pass out religious stuff goes against the command from God to spread the gospel to all nations.

I don't know right now, honestly.

And that is why it is called faith...

I commend you for reconsidering your position and acknowledging your current confusion. One could argue that more fundamental than the charge to spread the gospel are things like the golden rule and the ten commandments. It is difficult to see how a Christian could enlist in the military in a combat assignment and kill in light of those "higher commands." So, the cognitive dissonance you feel makes perfect sense to me. Of course, it is probably ******* off a bunch of other people who probably think we are evil twins now even though we probably see things differently 7 times out of 10 judging from what I know about you. :rotf:

[bengal_prideforlife]

Well, I was already told that the verse I "plucked" is about "humility." I actually think your interpretation makes a lot more sense than "this speaks to humility." I highlighted in bold above an observation that, believe it or not, was not stunning to me. I know this quite well, but I could now say, "yeah but that is only Matt 6:5-15, what about the rest of chapter six or the rest of Matthew, for that matter?"

But I won't say that. I will agree with you that context is important, but not just as it relates to surrounding verses. You also so have to consider the historical and cultural contexts in which these stories were told, which many would rather not do. And you also have to consider translation. The translation I used said "closet." The one you used said "room." Does it matter? Well, it depends on who is interpreting.

Now I agree with you that the passage in general is an instruction on prayer and not a call to humility. But, when I quoted the single "plucked" verse I didn't say it wasn't an instruction on prayer. In fact I implied that it was, and I believe it was, so you really didn't enlighten me. You agreed with me that the verse is an instruction on prayer, as are the surrounding verses. So, pluck though I did I assigned the verse the same meaning that you assigned to it and those around it. I hope this doesn't make you feel like you need to be ritually cleansed or prayed over, but you really reenforced my point. Also in bold in your post that I am replying to.So, I guess the "humility" guy thinks you are "clueless" too.Did you really expect me to go into detail on this with someone who obviously has NO reverence for the Word of God??? With all due respect....I dont think so!!!! And it is about MUCH more than humility but in MY interpretation of THAT scripture it is speaking of people who pray and do it out in the open so people can see them and portray them as a holy or righteous person....if you take it in the context of that ONE scripture that is actually what it means....

[GoldenArm9]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

this is what makes me mad about the world today. i am of no particular religion. i was raised catholic and dropped that title as soon as i was allowed to stop attending church. I think things like this are what drove me away. A nation that is suppposed to represent freedom fighting for freedom for someone else and then pressing their bliefs upon them. this is why we are not able and will not be able to get along with the middle east or the rest of the world. we always think we are right.

how many other religions have missonaries? why does nobody else feel a need to press beliefs on others.

just bugs me is all. what does everyone else think
Hmm during Matt Maupin's funeral the Military Chaplain who preached at the funeral preached the very same message that the coin had written on it and no problems there ...very interesting ...:hmm:

[Alias]

And that is why it is called faith...

I commend you for reconsidering your position and acknowledging your current confusion. One could argue that more fundamental than the charge to spread the gospel are things like the golden rule and the ten commandments. It is difficult to see how a Christian could enlist in the military in a combat assignment and kill in light of those "higher commands." So, the cognitive dissonance you feel makes perfect sense to me. Of course, it is probably ******* off a bunch of other people who probably think we are evil twins now even though we probably see things differently 7 times out of 10 judging from what I know about you. :rotf:

lol only 7? J/k. Yeah...I'm not a fan of killing, and plan to conscientiously object if there's ever a draft again. I usually go out of my way to avoid killing bugs....let alone people.

[xxlt]

This scripture speaks to humility....but use it how you want.....but for the record that made NO sense and did not help your argument in the least....but whatever take one scripture and make an argument while ignoring the hundreds scriptures that say to preach the Gospel....clueless

Hundreds of scriptures say to preach the gospel? Really. My concordance doesn't list that many. Off the top of my head I could think of four, which are really one since the four gospels tell of the same event. I suppose in Paul's epistles there are "multiple" calls to preach the gospel, but really shouldn't we just consider each letter as one instance of saying "preach the gospel" and not ten if Paul says it ten different ways in the same letter? That isn't meant to be facetious, I am just trying to figure out how you came up with "hundreds." And, frankly, while Paul writes a fine letter I tend to look more to the words of Jesus in the four gospels when I am looking for instruction. So, I think that saying Jesus wants people to pray privately, since it is in Matthew chapter six is fine. And I think it is a pretty important instruction - just as if not more important as the instruction he gives at the end of the book to 'preach the gospel.' Also, the instruction on prayer seems less ambiguous, and more specific and emphatic. I believe numerous scripture scholars would agree. But, as you say, use it how you want.

[bengal_prideforlife]

Well, I was already told that the verse I "plucked" is about "humility." I actually think your interpretation makes a lot more sense than "this speaks to humility." I highlighted in bold above an observation that, believe it or not, was not stunning to me. I know this quite well, but I could now say, "yeah but that is only Matt 6:5-15, what about the rest of chapter six or the rest of Matthew, for that matter?"

But I won't say that. I will agree with you that context is important, but not just as it relates to surrounding verses. You also so have to consider the historical and cultural contexts in which these stories were told, which many would rather not do. And you also have to consider translation. The translation I used said "closet." The one you used said "room." Does it matter? Well, it depends on who is interpreting.

Now I agree with you that the passage in general is an instruction on prayer and not a call to humility. But, when I quoted the single "plucked" verse I didn't say it wasn't an instruction on prayer. In fact I implied that it was, and I believe it was, so you really didn't enlighten me. You agreed with me that the verse is an instruction on prayer, as are the surrounding verses. So, pluck though I did I assigned the verse the same meaning that you assigned to it and those around it. I hope this doesn't make you feel like you need to be ritually cleansed or prayed over, but you really reenforced my point. Also in bold in your post that I am replying to.So, I guess the "humility" guy thinks you are "clueless" too.I dont think that is what he said at all, in fact it sounded to me like he said what I said only expounded. The chapter itself is an instruction on prayer and how to do it with humility and the importance of coming to God without an attitude of self righteousness.

[bengal_prideforlife]

Hundreds of scriptures say to preach the gospel? Really. My concordance doesn't list that many. Off the top of my head I could think of four, which are really one since the four gospels tell of the same event. I suppose in Paul's epistles there are "multiple" calls to preach the gospel, but really shouldn't we just consider each letter as one instance of saying "preach the gospel" and not ten if Paul says it ten different ways in the same letter? That isn't meant to be facetious, I am just trying to figure out how you came up with "hundreds." And, frankly, while Paul writes a fine letter I tend to look more to the words of Jesus in the four gospels when I am looking for instruction. So, I think that saying Jesus wants people to pray privately, since it is in Matthew chapter six is fine. And I think it is a pretty important instruction - just as if not more important as the instruction he gives at the end of the book to 'preach the gospel.' Also, the instruction on prayer seems less ambiguous, and more specific and emphatic. I believe numerous scripture scholars would agree. But, as you say, use it how you want.I will definitely relinquish and give you that much but facts are we are instructed to preach the Gospel, even if it only says it ONCE it is still every Christ followers responsibility....but thankfully it does say it more than once which also shows how important it was and still is....

[xxlt]

Did you really expect me to go into detail on this with someone who obviously has NO reverence for the Word of God??? With all due respect....I dont think so!!!! And it is about MUCH more than humility but in MY interpretation of THAT scripture it is speaking of people who pray and do it out in the open so people can see them and portray them as a holy or righteous person....if you take it in the context of that ONE scripture that is actually what it means....

Sir, or madam, I am a creature made in the image and likeness of God, a creature for whom Jesus suffered, died, and was buried, a person whose heart you know nothing of, a person whose private prayers you have no knowledge of, a person who has proclaimed the Word of God in foreign countries and has been invited to preach in multiple churches in America.

You have arbitrarily decided I have no reverence for the Word of God. You are utterly wrong about that, but that isn't surprising. It would appear your arrogance and impulsiveness causes you to be wrong about many things. Your lack of reverence for me is staggering. That you call yourself a Christian, if you do, is an affront to many. I don't really care what your interpretation of any scripture is, since I have studied scripture with theologians from Universities in several states and from different countries. I have also read a larger portion of any given book of the Bible than most people have read of the entire Bible. And, I've read quite a few books on Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis.

So, your opinion of the Bible matters little to me. I think my opinion of it is quite well informed. However, your contempt for your fellow human is offensive. I'll thank you to direct it elsewhere in the future.

[bengal_prideforlife]

Sir, or madam, I am a creature made in the image and likeness of God, a creature for whom Jesus suffered, died, and was buried, a person whose heart you know nothing of, a person whose private prayers you have no knowledge of, a person who has proclaimed the Word of God in foreign countries and has been invited to preach in multiple churches in America.

You have arbitrarily decided I have no reverence for the Word of God. You are utterly wrong about that, but that isn't surprising. It would appear your arrogance and impulsiveness causes you to be wrong about many things. Your lack of reverence for me is staggering. That you call yourself a Christian, if you do, is an affront to many. I don't really care what your interpretation of any scripture is, since I have studied scripture with theologians from Universities in several states and from different countries. I have also read a larger portion of any given book of the Bible than most people have read of the entire Bible. And, I've read quite a few books on Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis.

So, your opinion of the Bible matters little to me. I think my opinion of it is quite well informed. However, your contempt for your fellow human is offensive. I'll thank you to direct it elsewhere in the future.I am very impressed....that IS where you were going with that tirade right??? SECOND OFF!!! You can keep all your credentials that are meant to impress me cause they mean nothing to me when you come at scripture the way you did....it was very offensive to me that you twisted scripture in that way and I will leave it at that and not attack you personally anymore than I already have...I am very sorry if I offended you but I was VERY takin back by what I read in that post....

[bengal_prideforlife]

Sir, or madam, I am a creature made in the image and likeness of God, a creature for whom Jesus suffered, died, and was buried, a person whose heart you know nothing of, a person whose private prayers you have no knowledge of, a person who has proclaimed the Word of God in foreign countries and has been invited to preach in multiple churches in America.

You have arbitrarily decided I have no reverence for the Word of God. You are utterly wrong about that, but that isn't surprising. It would appear your arrogance and impulsiveness causes you to be wrong about many things. Your lack of reverence for me is staggering. That you call yourself a Christian, if you do, is an affront to many. I don't really care what your interpretation of any scripture is, since I have studied scripture with theologians from Universities in several states and from different countries. I have also read a larger portion of any given book of the Bible than most people have read of the entire Bible. And, I've read quite a few books on Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis.

So, your opinion of the Bible matters little to me. I think my opinion of it is quite well informed. However, your contempt for your fellow human is offensive. I'll thank you to direct it elsewhere in the future.
This is completely meant as sarcasm and a joke so do NOT take this personally but it is VERY comical to stare at that picture of Maggie Simpson during the reading of that last post LOL....I was crackin up cause I could picture your face somewhat like that....minus the binky I hope HAHAHA

[xxlt]

I am very impressed....that IS where you were going with that tirade right??? SECOND OFF!!! You can keep all your credentials that are meant to impress me cause they mean nothing to me when you come at scripture the way you did....it was very offensive to me that you twisted scripture in that way and I will leave it at that and not attack you personally anymore than I already have...I am very sorry if I offended you but I was VERY takin back by what I read in that post....

I am still just wanting to clarify exactly what "in that post" was so offensive to you. I pointed to Jesus instruction to pray in private. I think that is a very important instruction, from no less than JESUS. Now, was that the offensive part?

Or was it saying that Jesus would tolerate homosexuals? I know there are many people who think that Jesus friends and those he healed included tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers (both literal and figurative)... and that while he said repeatedly that he was sent for "the little ones" aka the "small, weak, sick, hungry, homeless, blind, deaf, lame," etc,... that in spite of repeatedly preaching love and tolerance and teaching all who came to him, healing all who sought it, calling undesirables to follow him, saying "the meek will inherit the earth" - yada, yada, yada - that with all this these certain people say, "yes, but not fags! Jesus hates queers! No homosexuals are welcome at Jesus table!"

If you are one of those folks, please tell me, so I will know what offended you. But, don't be surprised if I say again that Jesus didn't love everyone except homosexuals, he loved everyone, as does his Father. I feel an obligation to THEM to proclaim that part of the gospel. If it offends you, you may want to examine your Bible and your conscience a little more closely.

[bengal_prideforlife]

I am still just wanting to clarify exactly what "in that post" was so offensive to you. I pointed to Jesus instruction to pray in private. I think that is a very important instruction, from no less than JESUS. Now, was that the offensive part?

Or was it saying that Jesus would tolerate homosexuals? I know there are many people who think that Jesus friends and those he healed included tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers (both literal and figurative)... and that while he said repeatedly that he was sent for "the little ones" aka the "small, weak, sick, hungry, homeless, blind, deaf, lame," etc,... that in spite of repeatedly preaching love and tolerance and teaching all who came to him, healing all who sought it, calling undesirables to follow him, saying "the meek will inherit the earth" - yada, yada, yada - that with all this these certain people say, "yes, but not fags! Jesus hates queers! No homosexuals are welcome at Jesus table!"

If you are one of those folks, please tell me, so I will know what offended you. But, don't be surprised if I say again that Jesus didn't love everyone except homosexuals, he loved everyone, as does his Father. I feel an obligation to THEM to proclaim that part of the gospel. If it offends you, you may want to examine your Bible and your conscience a little more closely.Who in there right mind would ever say this who is an actual Christian??? I mean IMO the Bible very precisely condemns the practice of homosexuailty but I in no way would say that Jesus hates gay people....

[xxlt]

Who in there right mind would ever say this who is an actual Christian??? I mean IMO the Bible very precisely condemns the practice of homosexuailty but I in no way would say that Jesus hates gay people....

Q: Who in their right mind would say this?

A: A staggering number of people, some of whom post regularly on these boards. Actually, in my mind "one" would be a staggering number - but there are quite a few more than one. It is sad and sickening to me.

********

Thanks for clarifying that is not your issue. Now, I am sad that you got all worked up over it, but I really don't like to give insincere apologies. If I felt like I was out of order or disrespectful to the Word of God or to you I would apologize. Frankly, I don't think I was. I don't know what was set off when you read my post, but I think it came from you and not me. I think you just misread it or something.

********

Oh, and I have better things to do with my time than try to impress you - and I am sure you have better things to do than try to impress me. I just wanted you to know you were wrong about me and my relationship to the Bible and the only way to show you that was to just tell you how much time and energy I have put into studying it - and not with a bunch of goof balls, with some pretty heavy duty people.

[Alias]

Who in there right mind would ever say this who is an actual Christian??? I mean IMO the Bible very precisely condemns the practice of homosexuailty but I in no way would say that Jesus hates gay people....

http://www.godhatesfags.com/ sadly...


OOOOH you said right mind nevermind.

[bengal_prideforlife]

http://www.godhatesfags.com/ sadly...


OOOOH you said right mind nevermind.:vomitfest:

[Alias]

:vomitfest:

Yeah... I wrote them a letter (a very kind one, i might add) admonishing them, but I never got a response. :thumbsdown:

It was a few pages long, and I can't really blame them for not wanting to take the time to read it lol

[bengal_prideforlife]

Yeah... I wrote them a letter (a very kind one, i might add) admonishing them, but I never got a response. :thumbsdown:

It was a few pages long, and I can't really blame them for not wanting to take the time to read it lolThose people are clueless.....they are part of what makes Christians look VERY foolish to the rest of the world!!!!

[xxlt]

Those people are clueless.....they are part of what makes Christians look VERY foolish to the rest of the world!!!!

To paraphrase Smoky the Bear, 'Only you can change that perception... only you!"

******************

I noticed in a different thread that you didn't know some cultural icon of a bygone era - so here's another you can look up: "Smoky the Bear."

******************

I have heard many a Christian whine on here about being tagged as a narrow minded, intolerant, hate monger. (Thanks for acknowledging that in some cases the tag is appropriate.) Not all Christians are that way, and no one should have to put up with being stereotyped. But seriously, I think Christians who are offended when they get labeled like that would do better to make an effort to differentiate themselves from the hate mongers. If they feel like their Savior has called them to preach, instead of just saying "John 3:16" and "Jesus is my Saviour," why don't they make more of an effort at highlighting the nuances of their faith? Why don't they say, "Christ compels me to love ALL my fellow humans?" That is a pretty brief statement that makes it clear you aren't one of the the clueless condemnation crowd.

*****************

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Jesus is just alright we me, Jesus is just alright...

[jamiethelanky]

To paraphrase Smoky the Bear, 'Only you can change that perception... only you!"

******************

I noticed in a different thread that you didn't know some cultural icon of a bygone era - so here's another you can look up: "Smoky the Bear."

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I have heard many a Christian whine on here about being tagged as a narrow minded, intolerant, hate monger. (Thanks for acknowledging that in some cases the tag is appropriate.) Not all Christians are that way, and no one should have to put up with being stereotyped. But seriously, I think Christians who are offended when they get labeled like that would do better to make an effort to differentiate themselves from the hate mongers. If they feel like their Savior has called them to preach, instead of just saying "John 3:16" and "Jesus is my Saviour," why don't they make more of an effort at highlighting the nuances of their faith? Why don't they say, "Christ compels me to love ALL my fellow humans?" That is a pretty brief statement that makes it clear you aren't one of the the clueless condemnation crowd.

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And now a musical word from our sponsor:

Jesus is just alright we me, Jesus is just alright...
If it's the James Dean thread, then he did recognise him...

[kevin28_1962]

http://www.godhatesfags.com/ sadly...


OOOOH you said right mind nevermind.

I wouldn't even consider those people at the Westboro Baptist Church to be Christians. They are a bunch of self-righteous hate mongers.

I am still just wanting to clarify exactly what "in that post" was so offensive to you. I pointed to Jesus instruction to pray in private. I think that is a very important instruction, from no less than JESUS. Now, was that the offensive part?

Or was it saying that Jesus would tolerate homosexuals? I know there are many people who think that Jesus friends and those he healed included tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers (both literal and figurative)... and that while he said repeatedly that he was sent for "the little ones" aka the "small, weak, sick, hungry, homeless, blind, deaf, lame," etc,... that in spite of repeatedly preaching love and tolerance and teaching all who came to him, healing all who sought it, calling undesirables to follow him, saying "the meek will inherit the earth" - yada, yada, yada - that with all this these certain people say, "yes, but not fags! Jesus hates queers! No homosexuals are welcome at Jesus table!"

If you are one of those folks, please tell me, so I will know what offended you. But, don't be surprised if I say again that Jesus didn't love everyone except homosexuals, he loved everyone, as does his Father. I feel an obligation to THEM to proclaim that part of the gospel. If it offends you, you may want to examine your Bible and your conscience a little more closely.


I'm not a Bible scholar nor do I pretend to be but is it not that homosexuality is a sin just the same as lying, stealing, murdering. Jesus loves us all regardless of our sins. I've probably broken every one of the Mosiac moral laws. That makes me no less loved that someone who is gay. I believe that it all boils down to this; we are ALL sinners. None of us are any better than anyone else. We all fall short of being perfect, yet God loves us all the same.

If I remember correctly this thread started out about a marine passing out a tract. I dont know how it got from passing out a tract, i.e. spreading the Word of God, to private prayer. I'm sure someone will tell me how I went wrong in this, which is alright, but scripture telling us to spread the Gospel and Jesus teaching us to pray in private is two separate things. I agree with xxlt that we should be private in our prayers with God but I also believe that we as Christians are charged to spread the Gospel. I also think there's a time and place for that to be done as well. Being a former military member who has been deployed over to that part of the world, we were briefed on our in-brief to be respectful of the host nations religious beliefs. As a member of the US military we are there as a representative of the USA and we should not do anything that would reflect negatively towards the US.

[kevin28_1962]

So, do you think it is alright for people to hand out bibles to other people's kids during Halloween? Sometimes they sneak 'em in kids' candy bags. What if I started handing out books that are anti religion during trick or treat?

I think that people shouldn't push their religious beliefs onto others. I have no problem with advertising the times that you have church service and things of that nature, but when someone gives one of those creepy "You're going to burn in heck" or "The end of the world is near" pamphlets, to my daughter (this happened and she is only 6), then I'm a little offended.

I dunno.....it's hard to say......

I personally dont have a problem with passing out the $1000000 bill Gospel tract along with some candy during trick-or-treat. No one is forcing a parent to bring their child or allowing their child to come up to my house to receive a treat. Me passing out a Gospel tract is a lot less offensive than someone putting a razor blade in a piece of candy or spiking someone's candy with drugs.

[kevin28_1962]

Well, I was already told that the verse I "plucked" is about "humility." I actually think your interpretation makes a lot more sense than "this speaks to humility." I highlighted in bold above an observation that, believe it or not, was not stunning to me. I know this quite well, but I could now say, "yeah but that is only Matt 6:5-15, what about the rest of chapter six or the rest of Matthew, for that matter?"

But I won't say that. I will agree with you that context is important, but not just as it relates to surrounding verses. You also so have to consider the historical and cultural contexts in which these stories were told, which many would rather not do. And you also have to consider translation. The translation I used said "closet." The one you used said "room." Does it matter? Well, it depends on who is interpreting.

Now I agree with you that the passage in general is an instruction on prayer and not a call to humility. But, when I quoted the single "plucked" verse I didn't say it wasn't an instruction on prayer. In fact I implied that it was, and I believe it was, so you really didn't enlighten me. You agreed with me that the verse is an instruction on prayer, as are the surrounding verses. So, pluck though I did I assigned the verse the same meaning that you assigned to it and those around it. I hope this doesn't make you feel like you need to be ritually cleansed or prayed over, but you really reenforced my point. Also in bold in your post that I am replying to.So, I guess the "humility" guy thinks you are "clueless" too.

xxlt, I'm sorry if using the word "plucked" offended you. I probably should have used a more appropriate word but didn't think of it at the time.

The translation I used was stated prior to putting it in the post New King James Version. I'm not positive but it looks like the translation you used was the King James Version. From reading your posts it appears that you are more educated on the Bible than I so you know what the difference is between the two.
You asked what about the rest of chapter 6 or the rest of the Gospel of Matthew. We could hijack this thread and go into the context of Matthew but we wont. I'll just say that the book of Matthew's original audience was the Matthean Jewish Community. the book can be divided into its four structurally distinct sections: Two introductory sections; the main section, which can be further broken into five sections, each with a narrative component followed by a long discourse of Jesus; and finally, the Passion and Resurrection section. In chapters 5-7 Matthew was writing about Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. Chapter 6 can be broken up into this; 6: 1-4 Jesus teaching about giving to the needy. 6: 5-15 Jesus teaching about prayer. 6: 16-18 Jesus teaching about fasting. 6: 19-24 Jesus teachign about money. 6: 25-34 Jesus teaching about worry.

My post was supposed to be saying anything quoted in scripture must be taken in context. I have seen many people use verses to use in their own arguments and beliefs when they were actually using the verse out of context and had nothing to do with what they were trying to prove. Thus me saying that you cannot divorce any verse from the verses around it. I have a hard time seeing that your statement "proves" Jesus didn't have a problem with homosexuals coming out of the closet based on the verse you used. HOWEVER...I dont think Jesus has a problem with any sinner that repents of their sins and puts their faith in Him. Like I've said before, my sins are no lesser a sin than homosexuality.

May I ask which concordance you use and which Bible translation you primarily use? I have a NKJV Bible and am using a NIV application study bible for some studying. I am thinking of getting the John MacArthur NKJV study bible for more study.

[xxlt]

If it's the James Dean thread, then he did recognise him...

OOPS! Who was it that didn't recognize him?

[jamiethelanky]

OOPS! Who was it that didn't recognize him?
One of the kids (don't know which one).

[xxlt]

I have a hard time seeing that your statement "proves" Jesus didn't have a problem with homosexuals coming out of the closet based on the verse you used. HOWEVER...I dont think Jesus has a problem with any sinner that repents of their sins and puts their faith in Him. Like I've said before, my sins are no lesser a sin than homosexuality.

May I ask which concordance you use and which Bible translation you primarily use? I have a NKJV Bible and am using a NIV application study bible for some studying. I am thinking of getting the John MacArthur NKJV study bible for more study.

Kevin, the part of your post that I wiped out I virtually agree with all of. Responding to the part that is above that remains:

My original post that generated such furor probably should have been worded "Everything Jesus ever said or did proves that he doesn't have a problem with any sinner, including the ********** sinner (in my mind, his/her orientation is not sinful nor is acting on it since ALL are created in the "image and likeness of God" - don't think I need to tell you what passage I am alluding to there). Jesus came for sinners. And, he wants his followers to pray in private - per the instruction in Matthew chapter 6. Or, at least that is how he wanted the community he addressed as quoted in Matthew six to pray: privately. Maybe he doesn't give a damn what we do, but if it was good enough for them, it probably should be good enough for us. So, if you are gay don't concern yourself with hiding it and if you are Christian don't concern yourself with advertising it - Jesus will be quite happy with your private prayers." A bit wordy, but what I was getting at.

Matthew six "proves" (and I put it in quotes originally for a reason - namely because people like to use the Bible to prove lots of stuff and it really isn't built -IMVHO- for that purpose) the instruction on prayer, nothing more, nothing less. I think it is funny that most people who were so juiced about that post - the more they wrote the more clear it was that they agree with me - Jesus doesn't have it in for homosexuals and private prayer is encouraged. I think private prayer trumps evangelizing. I think both are trumped by conduct. I realize not all will agree. And, I don't think salvation is earned by our conduct, prayer, or evangelizing. Again, no need to try to dissuade me - I know not all agree.

My preferred translation when I was younger was the KJV. I still use it a lot, but also like the NIV and sometimes the NAB (even though it was written by those god forsaken Catholics - now this part in parenthesis is tongue in cheek - so don't wail on me for it - or if you need to take it to the wailing wall 'cause I don't wanna hear it - capiche?

I use whatever concordance is handy on line. If you want to read a damn good book pick up "The Bible as Literature" edited by Frank Kermode. Another dandy, on Christology, is called "The Same Jesus" by Dan Helminiak. And if you really want to deepen your faith and be entertained, pick up "Telling the Truth: The Gospel as Tragedy, Comedy, and Fairly Tale" by Frederick Buechner. It is absolutely DIVINE. Pun intended.

[Samhain]

I am still just wanting to clarify exactly what "in that post" was so offensive to you. I pointed to Jesus instruction to pray in private. I think that is a very important instruction, from no less than JESUS. Now, was that the offensive part?

Or was it saying that Jesus would tolerate homosexuals? I know there are many people who think that Jesus friends and those he healed included tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers (both literal and figurative)... and that while he said repeatedly that he was sent for "the little ones" aka the "small, weak, sick, hungry, homeless, blind, deaf, lame," etc,... that in spite of repeatedly preaching love and tolerance and teaching all who came to him, healing all who sought it, calling undesirables to follow him, saying "the meek will inherit the earth" - yada, yada, yada - that with all this these certain people say, "yes, but not fags! Jesus hates queers! No homosexuals are welcome at Jesus table!"

If you are one of those folks, please tell me, so I will know what offended you. But, don't be surprised if I say again that Jesus didn't love everyone except homosexuals, he loved everyone, as does his Father. I feel an obligation to THEM to proclaim that part of the gospel. If it offends you, you may want to examine your Bible and your conscience a little more closely.

Nooooooo! I thought Jesus was only coming for rich warmongering WASPs who survive by exploiting the weak you speak of! :rotf:

[kevin28_1962]

I don't think salvation is earned by our conduct, prayer, or evangelizing.

agreed. salvation is a gift by the grace of God through repentance and faith. No one can earn it through works or conduct.

I use whatever concordance is handy on line. If you want to read a damn good book pick up "The Bible as Literature" edited by Frank Kermode. Another dandy, on Christology, is called "The Same Jesus" by Dan Helminiak. And if you really want to deepen your faith and be entertained, pick up "Telling the Truth: The Gospel as Tragedy, Comedy, and Fairly Tale" by Frederick Buechner. It is absolutely DIVINE. Pun intended.

thanks for the recommendations. I'm currently reading The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel from somene else's recommendation.