end of the world?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

how many of you believe the end of the world is coming within our life time?

i only because ive read some post stating this.

[NashvilleBengalfan]

I feel fine.....

[IgnoreME]

Human beings are selfish by nature, that being said I understand where speculation can derive from.

I personally do not think the end of the world will happen during my lifetime except for human induced extinction via nuke warfare. Even then it is a slim chance.

[philhos]

As much as it may seem we are in the end times, I do not believe the end of the world to be nigh. I do not believe the end of the world will happen in my lifetime unless I have a lifespan that rivals or exceeds that of Methuselah.

It's interesting to note that Jesus' 11 disciples believed, after Jesus' ascenion into heaven, that they lived in the end times and that Jesus' 2nd coming was going to occur in their lifetimes (BTW, I can't really count Judas as he was dead)

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

As much as it may seem we are in the end times,

why does it seem we are in the end times?

[philhos]

why does it seem we are in the end times?

All the death, destruction, wars, environmental disasters, all the fighting, etc.

[devils advocate]

Every generation believes they are going to witness the end times.Some have gone as far as predicting the date.The Hale Bop Cult is one of them.How wrong were they?Regardless of conviction,there were definately some rational people that died that day.Armegedon is actually an ancient city in the middle east that connected important trade routes.This city was very important to all that wanted control of these trade routes.As you might imagine,many a war was fought for control of this city.many armies from many countries battled for this city.this is why Armagedon is what we know,not because it is a term for end times.


No we will not witness this event.Even if Nostradomus predicted it,or Edgar Casey,or that fake Jamaican,miss cleo.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

All the death, destruction, wars, environmental disasters, all the fighting, etc.


by that logic the end could have come in any time during recorded history. it only seems like its bad because this is when you're alive, you think it was better 1000 years ago?

[Samhain]

I don't know. I'm not a religious person, so in that sense, no. I agree with whoever said that the most likely near end would be a nuclear war. As far as why people think it's coming, I'd say that people have a lot more access to information about what goes on around the world. When an earthquake kills a few thousand, it's on CNN within a couple of hours at most. If a tornado hits, you can see it on weather sites on the internet before it happens. I've thought about this for years. Anytime I'd sit in front of the tv with news on, I'd think "man, things are getting pretty bad out there." I'm not sure they're any worse than they've ever been. We have short memories and usually only manage to focus on the major disaster de jour.

[Ocho_Cinco85]

Just turn to the book of Revelation in the Bible its all there. I do believe the end is in our lifetime because of all the prophecies being full filled. No one knows the day or hour but Jesus is coming back to bring all those who are saved back to Heaven. When this happens, Satan will have full control of the world and there will be 7 years of famine and insanity. After all this, God will destroy the earth and Satan will be cast into Hell where he will burn for eternity. God will then rebuild the earth and the earth will be free of evil forever.

[philhos]

by that logic the end could have come in any time during recorded history. it only seems like its bad because this is when you're alive, you think it was better 1000 years ago?

Hence, why I said, it "SEEMS" like it's the end times. It's also why I mentioned the apostles thinking Jesus was returning in their life time. They thought they lived in the end times too.

[Ocho_Cinco85]

All the death, destruction, wars, environmental disasters, all the fighting, etc.All prophicies being fullfilled.

[jmccracky]

Just turn to the book of Revelation in the Bible its all there. I do believe the end is in our lifetime because of all the prophecies being full filled. No one knows the day or hour but Jesus is coming back to bring all those who are saved back to Heaven. When this happens, Satan will have full control of the world and there will be 7 years of famine and insanity. After all this, God will destroy the earth and Satan will be cast into Hell where he will burn for eternity. God will then rebuild the earth and the earth will be free of evil forever.

I hope I don't offend any Christians when I ask these questions, because it is not my intent. I just have questions, that's all. I'm no better than anyone who is Christian. We're all equal brothers and sisters.

Why would God let Satan have full control of the world that HE created? And why would God let there be 7 years of famine and insanity? That seems a little cruel to do to your own children. Then he will destroy the earth THEN cast Satan into Hell for eternity? Doesn't make sense to me. Seems to me that he should've done that in the first place, so WE could have an earth that is free of evil.

And if He, or we, got it wrong the first time, then how does He know that we/He will not mess it up again? (Phew!)

Again, I respect and admire religious people, and I like to learn stuff that I don't understand. :thumbsup:

[BANJAXED]

by that logic the end could have come in any time during recorded history. it only seems like its bad because this is when you're alive, you think it was better 1000 years ago?

Exactly, this crap has been happening forever.

To put things into perspective here are some pretty terrible things that have occured (most not even in our lifetime)

1. The Plague 1300s - 1700s (300M+ deaths)
2. Smallpox - began in 1700s - (countless deaths)
3. Major global paleoclimate event 3200 B.C. - sea levels rose extremely high
4. China Floods of 1931 (2 - 4 M deaths )
5. China Shaanxi earthquake 1556 (800-900K deaths)
6. Potato Famine - Ireland (1M deaths+)

annnd the kicker....

7. Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction (Asteroid?) - basically everything.

that isn't including any wars:

1. WWII - 72 to 40M deaths (1939-45)
2. Chinese An Shi Rebellion - 33 to 36 M deaths ( 756-763)
3. Mongol Empire Conquests 30 to 60M deaths (1207-1492)

How is see it is that we have 5 Billion years before the sun goes out by then man kind should be able to:

1. Time Travel
2. Travel Across Galaxies
3. Live without the sun

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Hence, why I said, it "SEEMS" like it's the end times. It's also why I mentioned the apostles thinking Jesus was returning in their life time. They thought they lived in the end times too.

which furthers the belief that we made up most of religion, if not all, as just existing on this planet is a very scary undertaking, and requires a sense of direction to make us feel safe.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Just turn to the book of Revelation in the Bible its all there. I do believe the end is in our lifetime because of all the prophecies being full filled. No one knows the day or hour but Jesus is coming back to bring all those who are saved back to Heaven. When this happens, Satan will have full control of the world and there will be 7 years of famine and insanity. After all this, God will destroy the earth and Satan will be cast into Hell where he will burn for eternity. God will then rebuild the earth and the earth will be free of evil forever.

whoa that sounds like a great movie, but not reality.

raises alot of questions, hopefully you'll want to answer.

what are these prophecies that are being fulfilled?

when jesus returns, will he give unbelievers the opportunity to see him, so that they can become believers? or will those who are going to heaven and hell be decided before he returns?----this one is important to me.

for the people left behind, will they then become insane by what the world has become or will god actually twist there minds and make them insane?

why does god want to wait 7 years to destroy the earth?

why will god rebuild the earth? to make another batch of humans?

[kevin28_1962]

he keeps throwing the lure out and you guys bite every time. :rotf:

[Ocho_Cinco85]

whoa that sounds like a great movie, but not reality.

raises alot of questions, hopefully you'll want to answer.

what are these prophecies that are being fulfilled?

when jesus returns, will he give unbelievers the opportunity to see him, so that they can become believers? or will those who are going to heaven and hell be decided before he returns?----this one is important to me.

for the people left behind, will they then become insane by what the world has become or will god actually twist there minds and make them insane?

why does god want to wait 7 years to destroy the earth?

why will god rebuild the earth? to make another batch of humans?Its hard for me to anwser your questions because I'm only 16 and still learning more and more (on my quest to become a Youth Pastor) about this stuff. I do know that everything I stated in my post is true. I can anwser the question I just put in bold and some of the anwsers are wars, earthquakes, hurricanes, genocides, etc. If you watch the movie "Left Behind" it will explain it a little better.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Its hard for me to anwser your questions because I'm only 16 and still learning more and more (on my quest to become a Youth Pastor) about this stuff. I do know that everything I stated in my post is true. I can anwser the question I just put in bold and some of the anwsers are wars, earthquakes, hurricanes, genocides, etc. If you watch the movie "Left Behind" it will explain it a little better.

ok i'll leave you alone

but please, as a 16 year old, dont turn your back on science, it's just as beautiful as religion.

[barryllium]

he keeps throwing the lure out and you guys bite every time. :rotf:

Good call, Kevin. Sloppy is already on record on these boards as saying Atheism is superior to other religions (link (http://boards.bengals.com/showpost.php?p=447295&postcount=466)). I think it's his mission in life to make others think the same, because, for some reason, he needs to feel that way to feel good about himself. Just my $.02, though...

[philhos]

which furthers the belief that we made up most of religion, if not all,.

How?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Good call, Kevin. Sloppy is already on record on these boards as saying Atheism is superior to other religions (link (http://boards.bengals.com/showpost.php?p=447295&postcount=466)). I think it's his mission in life to make others think the same, because, for some reason, he needs to feel that way to feel good about himself. Just my $.02, though...

1. atheism is not a religion

2. atheism is superior to religion because it gives people no reason to do bad.

even if you say people will do evil when they don't believe there is a god watching them, those are evil people to begin with, as solidarity is innate in humans.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

How?

because every walk of life throughout history asked the same questions, when will the end come, where do i come from, where do i my loved ones go when they die.

why do you think over 10,000 different gods have been worshiped by us?

[barryllium]

1. atheism is not a religion

2. atheism is superior to religion because it gives people no reason to do bad.

even if you say people will do evil when they don't believe there is a god watching them, those are evil people to begin with, as solidarity is innate in humans.

1. Yes, it is. The Miriam-Webster dictionary has the fourth definition of religion as "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith". Atheism includes the belief that there is no god, and atheists create a system of beliefs and principles based on this. It's analogous to "black" when it comes to colors. While black is technically the absence of color, it is still a color. In the same sense, while atheism includes the absence of god, it is still a religion.

2. So you are saying that no one reasons doing bad because they believe there is no god? People interpret the idea of no god in many ways - including ways that help them rationalize doing things that are wrong. The same can be said for religions. No religion (atheism included) is superior to another.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

1. Yes, it is. The Miriam-Webster dictionary has the fourth definition of religion as "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith". Atheism includes the belief that there is no god, and atheists create a system of beliefs and principles based on this. It's analogous to "black" when it comes to colors. While black is technically the absence of color, it is still a color. In the same sense, while atheism includes the absence of god, it is still a religion.

i would disagree as atheism doesn't dictate anything in my life, it's simply me knowing there is no proof of god's existance, thus i don't believe it does in fact exist.

there is also no proof that god doesn't exist, but to believe it does when there is no evidence requires faith.

atheism doesn't require faith, and is thus not a religion.



2. So you are saying that no one reasons doing bad because they believe there is no god? People interpret the idea of no god in many ways - including ways that help them rationalize doing things that are wrong. The same can be said for religions. No religion (atheism included) is superior to another.

once again atheism is not religion, nobody will say that a god that doesn't exist made them do evil.

if you want to say that not believing in god might make someone do evil i can't argue, but obviously religion takes the cake on that.

think about this, name one good thing a religious person has done because of religion that COULDN'T have been done by a non-religious person

now i want you to name something evil someone has done because of religion.

[NashvilleBengalfan]

i would disagree as atheism doesn't dictate anything in my life, it's simply me knowing there is no proof of god's existance, thus i don't believe it does in fact exist.

there is also no proof that god doesn't exist, but to believe it does when there is no evidence requires faith.

atheism doesn't require faith, and is thus not a religion.




once again atheism is not religion, nobody will say that a god that doesn't exist made them do evil.

if you want to say that not believing in god might make someone do evil i can't argue, but obviously religion takes the cake on that.

think about this, name one good thing a religious person has done because of religion that COULDN'T have been done by a non-religious person

now i want you to name something evil someone has done because of religion.

(...gets out of the way...)

http://www.retakingamerica.com/files/photo_lighning1.jpg

[barryllium]

i would disagree as atheism doesn't dictate anything in my life, it's simply me knowing there is no proof of god's existance, thus i don't believe it does in fact exist.

there is also no proof that god doesn't exist, but to believe it does when there is no evidence requires faith.

atheism doesn't require faith, and is thus not a religion.

You are missing the main point here. Atheists have faith that there isn't a god - because faith is defined as a belief in something for which there is not proof. Nothing disproves god 100% - I think we agree on this. So, in choosing to believe there is no god, you also choose to live your life in different ways - god is just not the impetus in doing such. Think of the general idea that "in not making a choice, you are in fact still making a choice". Applied to this, in choosing to not believe in god, you choose to dictate your life on other grounds. So, atheism does dictate your life, you just happen to have reasons other than god for why you do things.

once again atheism is not religion, nobody will say that a god that doesn't exist made them do evil.

if you want to say that not believing in god might make someone do evil i can't argue, but obviously religion takes the cake on that.

think about this, name one good thing a religious person has done because of religion that COULDN'T have been done by a non-religious person

now i want you to name something evil someone has done because of religion.

This argument has a gigantic hole in it - that being this: name me one good thing a non-religious person has done that couldn't have been done if they were religious. Religion as a whole ******* nothing. While I don't disagree that extremists in all religions have done bad things, so have atheists. And I'm also not naive enough to think that all progress has been achieved by non-religious people.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

(...gets out of the way...)

http://www.retakingamerica.com/files/photo_lighning1.jpg

that'd be pretty old testament of god to strike me down for what i believe

he was pretty gangsta back then

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

You are missing the main point here. Atheists have faith that there isn't a god - because faith is defined as a belief in something for which there is not proof. Nothing disproves god 100% - I think we agree on this. So, in choosing to believe there is no god, you also choose to live your life in different ways - god is just not the impetus in doing such. Think of the general idea that "in not making a choice, you are in fact still making a choice". Applied to this, in choosing to not believe in god, you choose to dictate your life on other grounds. So, atheism does dictate your life, you just happen to have reasons other than god for why you do things.

not at all, believing there is no god requires no faith as science has answered the questions that we created god for.

it doesn't require faith to believe in facts. it just requires logic.

my innate human solidarity and the laws made for the betterment of everyone dictate my life, not my belief that god doesn't meddle in our affairs.

now i want you to look at all the evidence that shows the universe obeys the laws of science and works in a uniformity resulting from those laws, why do you still believe a god is responsible for it? doesn't that ****** your ability to question the universe?

This argument has a gigantic hole in it - that being this: name me one good thing a non-religious person has done that couldn't have been done if they were religious. Religion as a whole ******* nothing. While I don't disagree that extremists in all religions have done bad things, so have atheists. And I'm also not naive enough to think that all progress has been achieved by non-religious people.
oh thats easy
as a non religious person, if i saw a jewish person stranded on the road, i would help him, and that would be a good thing to do

now if i was a fundamental muslim, i would see that he is jewish and more than likely, i would drive right on by, as my religion teaches me not to assist the zionist in any way.

[pookdogg7]

i would disagree as atheism doesn't dictate anything in my life, it's simply me knowing there is no proof of god's existance, thus i don't believe it does in fact exist.

there is also no proof that god doesn't exist, but to believe it does when there is no evidence requires faith.

atheism doesn't require faith, and is thus not a religion.



What you describe here, seems to me anyway, to describe agnosticism more than atheism. You don't know of any facts that support the existance of God and therefore you don't believe. However, if you were presented with a fact that there was a God, you would believe, correct?

Atheism requires faith that no evidence of a God will ever be revealed.

[barryllium]

not at all, believing there is no god requires no faith as science has answered the questions that we created god for.

it doesn't require faith to believe in facts. it just requires logic.

my innate human solidarity and the laws made for the betterment of everyone dictate my life, not my belief that god doesn't meddle in our affairs.

now i want you to look at all the evidence that shows the universe obeys the laws of science and works in a uniformity resulting from those laws, why do you still believe a god is responsible for it? doesn't that ****** your ability to question the universe?

We've been through this before... science doesn't answer everything - but you have faith that it will. I don't feel like arguing this anymore, it's getting ridiculous. If science really had all the answers, people wouldn't still be trying to figure things out that we don't have answers for. So, you have faith that science will answer them. It is logic - a) science doesn't have all the answers, b) you believe science will have all the answers, c) your belief is rooted in the idea that science has figured out a lot and you think that it will answer everything - therefore d) you have faith in science.

Knowing how something works (because of science) is not mutually exclusive with believing in god. One can still believe that god is the reason why these things happen the way they do - a logical idea that you seem to show no tolerance for.

oh thats easy
as a non religious person, if i saw a jewish person stranded on the road, i would help him, and that would be a good thing to do

now if i was a fundamental muslim, i would see that he is jewish and more than likely, i would drive right on by, as my religion teaches me not to assist the zionist in any way.

Once again, you apply the actions of the minority to the few. You a) assume religion makes a difference for all people as to whether they would help the Jewish person stranded on the road, and b) the fact that you would help him means all non-fundamental muslims would.

The actions of people from all religions cover the gamut, including the actions of atheists.

[philhos]

not at all, believing there is no god requires no faith as science has answered the questions that we created god for.

I thought you said we created God to answer questions like "why are we here" and "where do my loved ones go when they die"? Since when has science answered those questions?

Answer: it hasn't. Science never answers the why, it only answers the how.

I will say this about you, your faith in science is greater than many of my Christian friends' faith in God.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

What you describe here, seems to me anyway, to describe agnosticism more than atheism. You don't know of any facts that support the existance of God and therefore you don't believe. However, if you were presented with a fact that there was a God, you would believe, correct?

Atheism requires faith that no evidence of a God will ever be revealed.

well there ya go that shows how little i care about labeling what i believe to not even know the correct term.

i simply believe what evidence shows, and i can't say there is no god that created the universe, but i can say the universe started and has continued without his help, according to what science has shown us.

there could very well be a god that created everything, but it would surely end there as to try and say that there is a god who meddles in our affairs is only going to lead to mental handicapping and a lot of very very very hard to answer questions for believers.

[philhos]

well there ya go that shows how little i care about labeling what i believe to not even know the correct term.

i simply believe what evidence shows, and i can't say there is no god that created the universe, but i can say the universe started and has continued without his help, according to what science has shown us.

How has science shown that the universe has continued without his help?

[34inXXIII]

I believe the end of the world to be December 12, 2012 because Fox Mulder said so. I'm guessing the Bengals will probably be 13-0 on that date. <_<

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

We've been through this before... science doesn't answer everything - but you have faith that it will. I don't feel like arguing this anymore, it's getting ridiculous. If science really had all the answers, people wouldn't still be trying to figure things out that we don't have answers for. So, you have faith that science will answer them. It is logic - a) science doesn't have all the answers, b) you believe science will have all the answers, c) your belief is rooted in the idea that science has figured out a lot and you think that it will answer everything - therefore d) you have faith in science.


you're confused about what science is again.

i dont have faith that science will answer everything, i have faith that humans will eventually answer everything, provided we dont become extinct.

dont you have faith in the human mind too? its the most complex collection of atoms we've ever encountered.



Knowing how something works (because of science) is not mutually exclusive with believing in god. One can still believe that god is the reason why these things happen the way they do - a logical idea that you seem to show no tolerance for.

i can tolerate it just fine, i dont act like this in person by the way.

i just dont like how believing that doesn't encourage free thinking.




Once again, you apply the actions of the minority to the few. You a) assume religion makes a difference for all people as to whether they would help the Jewish person stranded on the road, and b) the fact that you would help him means all non-fundamental muslims would.

did i not show you something that non-religious person would do but a religious person's certain religion stops them from doing?

what about a catholic and a protestant?

[barryllium]

I believe the end of the world to be December 12, 2012 because Fox Mulder said so. I'm guessing the Bengals will probably be 13-0 on that date. <_<


That Fox Mulder sure does know his Mayan Calendar (http://www.13moon.com/prophecy%20page.htm)!

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I thought you said we created God to answer questions like "why are we here" and "where do my loved ones go when they die"? Since when has science answered those questions?

Answer: it hasn't. Science never answers the why, it only answers the how.

I will say this about you, your faith in science is greater than many of my Christian friends' faith in God.

1. i have no faith in science, it's merely a method, i have faith in the human mind, and yes, my faith in YOUR brain is greater than your faith in god.

2. why the universe exists is irrelevant, trying to answer the why only leads humans to believe they are somehow involved in the reason, in no way are we the reason for ANYTHING in the universe.

3. if you really want to know WHY we exist, its pretty simple, but not very nice.

we are here because the circumstances made it possible, many many circumstances.

at one point, humans only numbered in the 1000's, and we had to leave africa because of climate change, it simply got too hot. thats why we proliferated throughout the world.

[barryllium]

you're confused about what science is again.

i dont have faith that science will answer everything, i have faith that humans will eventually answer everything, provided we dont become extinct.

dont you have faith in the human mind too? its the most complex collection of atoms we've ever encountered.

No, I'm not confused. We're just applying different definitions. Science is the process used to discover the nature of things, essentially. You have faith that humans will use this to eventually answer everything.

In the end, you've already proven my initial point - you have faith in something, it just isn't god.

i can tolerate it just fine, i dont act like this in person by the way.

i just dont like how believing that doesn't encourage free thinking.

Religion as a whole doesn't discourage free thinking. You can point towards certain sects that do, but in large, religions don't discourage free thinking. I search for answers for everything, but that doesn't affect my beliefs.

did i not show you something that non-religious person would do but a religious person's certain religion stops them from doing?

what about a catholic and a protestant?

Yes, you showed how one person's interpretation of his/her religion stops them from doing something. Religion, as a whole, doesn't do this. Certain people interpret it as such, much like certain atheists choose to do/not do something.

What about a catholic and a protestant? Did they walk into a bar? (By the way, I'm baptised/confirmed Catholic and Methodist - so go ahead, please, try to talk about how I hate and won't help myself).

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

How has science shown that the universe has continued without his help?

everything we witness in the universe through telescopes shows the natural order of the universe, the interaction of atoms on a cosmic scale, yet shows no evidence of anything happening that defies scientific laws.

you could say that black holes violate scientific laws, but ive already said they are the closest thing to god we know of.

[BANJAXED]

1. i have no faith in science, it's merely a method, i have faith in the human mind, and yes, my faith in YOUR brain is greater than your faith in god.

2. why the universe exists is irrelevant, trying to answer the why only leads humans to believe they are somehow involved in the reason, in no way are we the reason for ANYTHING in the universe.

3. if you really want to know WHY we exist, its pretty simple, but not very nice.

we are here because the circumstances made it possible, many many circumstances.

at one point, humans only numbered in the 1000's, and we had to leave africa because of climate change, it simply got too hot. thats why we proliferated throughout the world.

Somebody get Mr. Downer some icecream? cookie? or something! Geesh!

[philhos]

1. i have no faith in science, it's merely a method, i have faith in the human mind, and yes, my faith in YOUR brain is greater than your faith in god.

But, the combination of my faith in God with my faith in MY brain with my faith in science is far greater than just your measly faith in science (Yes, faith in science. Call it faith in mankind, call it faith in my/your brain, but it boils down to your faith in science).

See, unlike you, I have an open mind and I am not constrained by any thoughts. I freely believe in God because evidence in my life points to His existence. That's not to say, though, that He hasn't used science to achieve His goals.

YOU are the closedminded one in that you believe ONLY science has the answers and ONLY science will have the answers. I believe in a combination of both science and God.

2. why the universe exists is irrelevant, trying to answer the why only leads humans to believe they are somehow involved in the reason, in no way are we the reason for ANYTHING in the universe.

I never said we were. But, you claimed we created God simply to answer that question as well as some others. Yet, you also said science has answered all the questions. With that said, I'm interested in hearing science's explanation for why the universe exists.

3. if you really want to know WHY we exist, its pretty simple, but not very nice.

we are here because the circumstances made it possible, many many circumstances.

Even though the chances of these circumstances being just right are a statistical impossibility.

at one point, humans only numbered in the 1000's, and we had to leave africa because of climate change, it simply got too hot. thats why we proliferated throughout the world.

If we left Africa because it got too hot, why are there still humans in Africa?

[barryllium]

Somebody get Mr. Downer some icecream? cookie? or something! Geesh!

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/features/health/theskinny/blog/debbie_downer.jpg

[pookdogg7]

everything we witness in the universe through telescopes shows the natural order of the universe, the interaction of atoms on a cosmic scale, yet shows no evidence of anything happening that defies scientific laws.

you could say that black holes violate scientific laws, but ive already said they are the closest thing to god we know of.

If black holes violate scientific laws then they're not laws by definition.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

No, I'm not confused. We're just applying different definitions. Science is the process used to discover the nature of things, essentially. You have faith that humans will use this to eventually answer everything.

In the end, you've already proven my initial point - you have faith in something, it just isn't god.

as ive said, i have faith in the human mind, humans discovered science, thus how i can have more faith in the discovery than the discoverer?



Religion as a whole doesn't discourage free thinking. You can point towards certain sects that do, but in large, religions don't discourage free thinking. I search for answers for everything, but that doesn't affect my beliefs.

intelligent design
creationism
heaven/hell
all of these discourage free thinking as they remove possibilities

Yes, you showed how one person's interpretation of his/her religion stops them from doing something. Religion, as a whole, doesn't do this. Certain people interpret it as such, much like certain atheists choose to do/not do something.

one persons? MILLIONS of muslims hate jews, millions of jews hate muslims.

millions of muslims hate christians, millions of christians hate muslims, millions of christians hate jews etc etc etc.

obviously the amount of people who hate others because of religious belief is in the billions.

What about a catholic and a protestant? Did they walk into a bar? (By the way, I'm baptised/confirmed Catholic and Methodist - so go ahead, please, try to talk about how I hate and won't help myself).

i dont want to be mean

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

If black holes violate scientific laws then they're not laws by definition.

sure you could say that.

thats a great thing to encourage the study of gravity, as a black hole has so much gravity it changes the normal interactions of particles.

you guys have to remember science is very open to change, unlike religion, the more we learn the more it can change.

for instance, einstein said nothing can travel faster than light, but i sure hope we can figure out a way around that.

[philhos]

intelligent design
creationism
heaven/hell
all of these discourage free thinking as they remove possibilities

How? If anything scientists who don't objectively look at these options are the ones removing possibilities. People who ascribe to ID or creationism don't discount things like evolution or other scientific explanations (okay, some do, but not all), they just add more possibilities for things by suggesting God or a Designer.

Those that immediately discount someone's thoughts because it mentions ID or creation is the one that discourages free thinking; it's this person that is removing possibilities.

[barryllium]

as ive said, i have faith in the human mind, humans discovered science, thus how i can have more faith in the discovery than the discoverer?

Ugh, semantics. Fine. You have faith in humans, and their ability to use science. My point is still valid - part of your life is dictated by faith.

intelligent design
creationism
heaven/hell
all of these discourage free thinking as they remove possibilities

None of these remove possibilities for me, or discourage free thinking. People that want to think will think. People that don't, won't. These people exist in all religions, including atheism.

one persons? MILLIONS of muslims hate jews, millions of jews hate muslims.

millions of muslims hate christians, millions of christians hate muslims, millions of christians hate jews etc etc etc.

obviously the amount of people who hate others because of religious belief is in the billions.

We're not getting into the numbers game, nor your game of spreading fear. Besides, you continue to ignore the point - it's the interpretation that causes this, not religion as a whole. An atheist can hate just as much as a person of another religion.

i dont want to be mean

...or wrong, again.

[eoxyod]

I believe the end of the world to be December 12, 2012 because Fox Mulder said so. I'm guessing the Bengals will probably be 13-0 on that date. <_<


That would stink<_<

[Jumbro]

1. atheism is not a religion

2. atheism is superior to religion because it gives people no reason to do bad.

even if you say people will do evil when they don't believe there is a god watching them, those are evil people to begin with, as solidarity is innate in humans.

Here are some definitions of religion:
*a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects
*the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices
*something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

This is what I got for atheism:
1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God. 2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Seems like the proof is in the puddin:thumbsup: Atheist are a number of persons who generally agree upon specific fundamental beliefs and it is something people believe in and follow devotedly.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

See, unlike you, I have an open mind and I am not constrained by any thoughts. I freely believe in God because evidence in my life points to His existence. That's not to say, though, that He hasn't used science to achieve His goals.

YOU are the closedminded one in that you believe ONLY science has the answers and ONLY science will have the answers. I believe in a combination of both science and God.

how open are you to the idea that god doesnt exist?


I never said we were. But, you claimed we created God simply to answer that question as well as some others. Yet, you also said science has answered all the questions. With that said, I'm interested in hearing science's explanation for why the universe exists.


the universe exists because without it there would be nothing, sorry to sound rude but that the question of a child.

all of the matter of the universe is all that there has ever been and all that there ever will be, matter cannot be destroyed or created, no beginning or end.


Even though the chances of these circumstances being just right are a statistical impossibility.


thats when you factor in time, with time the statistically impossible becomes the inevitable.


If we left Africa because it got too hot, why are there still humans in Africa?

have you ever seen a black person? obviously staying in africa had its effect. its very possible that humans re-migrated back to africa some thousands of years after they left.

but y'know what, i wonder why you dont have a desire to read about these things for yourself..................honestly.

[barryllium]

sure you could say that, and you'd be right.

thats a great thing to encourage the study of gravity, as a black hole has so much gravity it changes the normal interactions of particles.

you guys have to remember science is very open to change, as is religion, the more we learn the more it can change.

for instance, einstein said nothing can travel faster than light, but science has figured out a way around that - link (http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/swanson.shtml).

Fixed it for you.

[pookdogg7]

sure you could say that.

thats a great thing to encourage the study of gravity, as a black hole has so much gravity it changes the normal interactions of particles.

you guys have to remember science is very open to change, unlike religion, the more we learn the more it can change.

for instance, einstein said nothing can travel faster than light, but i sure hope we can figure out a way around that.

Just like people who belong to religions. There are very few who blindly follow without questioning and as things are revealed some religions do change.

For example, there are two instances of two different popes speaking about evolution not being contrary to Catholic beliefs (i.e. adapting to scientific discovery):



To paraphrase Santayana: Newspapers ignorant of history are condemned to reprint it. How else should we interpret the recent headline, describing Pope John Paul II's address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, "Pope Says Evolution Compatible with Faith"?

There's not much "news" there. Fifty years ago Pope Pius XII said almost the same thing in the encyclical Humani generis: "The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, insofar as it inquiries into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter."

While not exactly canonizing Darwin, Pius XII did imply that the theory of evolution isn't necessarily inimical to Christianity. Certainly he didn't reject evolution altogether. How then do we explain the big headlines when John Paul II says basically the same thing in 1996?


http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/0102-97/Article3.html

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Ugh, semantics. Fine. You have faith in humans, and their ability to use science. My point is still valid - part of your life is dictated by faith.

the part of my life thats excited about scientific breakthroughs yes. but it ends there.


QUOTE=barryllium;448872]
None of these remove possibilities for me, or discourage free thinking. People that want to think will think. People that don't, won't. These people exist in all religions, including atheism.[/QUOTE]

only because you loosely follow your faith, if you were devout, you would never wonder how humans got here, or how stars are formed, or what the fate of the universe will be, and if you did, and voiced your opinions, what would the other devotees say?




We're not getting into the numbers game, nor your game of spreading fear. Besides, you continue to ignore the point - it's the interpretation that causes this, not religion as a whole. An atheist can hate just as much as a person of another religion.

ok then....name me a religion thats never been "misinterpreted"

...or wrong, again.

trust me, i dont want to start digging up the various horrible things about your particular religion

[philhos]

how open are you to the idea that god doesnt exist?

Considering the evidence in my life doesn't point that way, why would I be open to it? How open are you to the idea that God poofed everything into existence and evolution is nonexistant?

the universe exists because without it there would be nothing, sorry to sound rude but that the question of a child.

all of the matter of the universe is all that there has ever been and all that there ever will be, matter cannot be destroyed or created, no beginning or end.

Sounds to me like proof of the existence of God. ;)


thats when you factor in time, with time the statistically impossible becomes the inevitable.

And yet, only life on Earth. No life on any other planet in our solar system even though the same amount of time has happened. Even with time, it is a statistical impossibility for life to have "just happened."


have you ever seen a black person? obviously staying in africa had its effect. its very possible that humans re-migrated back to africa some thousands of years after they left.

It's "possible?" You saying your precious science doesn't have an answer?


but y'know what, i wonder why you dont have a desire to read about these things for yourself..................honestly.

Who says I haven't? I wonder why you only read about things you agree with.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Fixed it for you.

you're still confused

science doesn't figure anything out, humans do.

[philhos]

only because you loosely follow your faith, if you were devout, you would never wonder how humans got here, or how stars are formed, or what the fate of the universe will be, and if you did, and voiced your opinions, what would the other devotees say?

I don't know about barryllium, but I don't loosely follow my faith and yet I still have wondered how humans got here, how stars are formed, etc. I'm just not closedmined enough to think it has to be exactly one answer and one answer only.


ok then....name me a religion thats never been "misinterpreted"

And no aspects of science have ever been misinterpreted, right? People completely understand the scientific concepts of Laws, Theories, evolution, etc. There are no misconceptions, right? <_<

[pookdogg7]

all of the matter of the universe is all that there has ever been and all that there ever will be, matter cannot be destroyed or created, no beginning or end.


You just described (pretty close anyways) a lot of people's concept of God as written thousands of years ago.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Considering the evidence in my life doesn't point that way, why would I be open to it? How open are you to the idea that God poofed everything into existence and evolution is nonexistant?

well thanks for admitting you are close minded.

im open to the idea a god created everything and evolution is nonexistant, it's just that humans have discovered SO much to the contrary, that my mind is only open a small crack:)



Sounds to me like proof of the existence of God. ;)



if you want to say that god is matter than sure, but don't act like the atoms around you are answering your prayers.


And yet, only life on Earth. No life on any other planet in our solar system even though the same amount of time has happened. Even with time, it is a statistical impossibility for life to have "just happened."

you have to have correct conditions, and actually, you're about to get pwnd.

because the ONLY other planet in our solar system that could have had the proper conditions shows a STAGGERING amount of evidence for life, of course im talking about mars.



It's "possible?" You saying your precious science doesn't have an answer?


google it i bet it does.


Who says I haven't? I wonder why you only read about things you agree with.

why would you ask such a question if you had been reading about it?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

You just described (pretty close anyways) a lot of people's concept of God as written thousands of years ago.

sure i said that before, except the matter of the universe has no intelligence. big big difference.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I don't know about barryllium, but I don't loosely follow my faith and yet I still have wondered how humans got here, how stars are formed, etc. I'm just not closedmined enough to think it has to be exactly one answer and one answer only.


its not close minded to believe what the evidence shows, and im glad you question your faith.



And no aspects of science have ever been misinterpreted, right? People completely understand the scientific concepts of Laws, Theories, evolution, etc. There are no misconceptions, right? <_<

sure their are, but since we KNOW science is only nature, it rarely leads to people getting killed when someone's theory is debunked.

its when people start saying something is the word of god that you see alot of suffering.

[philhos]

well thanks for admitting you are close minded.

im open to the idea a god created everything and evolution is nonexistant, it's just that humans have discovered SO much to the contrary, that my mind is only open a small crack:)

How am I closedminded? There is much evidence in my life to support my belief in God, just as there is much evidence to support evolution.

So, people are closedminded if they're not open to the possibility that evolution has never actually happened and that every animal just appeared on earth from thin air?

And, judging based on your comments, you are NOT open to the idea of God, let alone to the idea He created everything. Do not lie, it's bad enough you're arrogant and condescending.


if you want to say that god is matter than sure, but don't act like the atoms around you are answering your prayers.

Well, SOMEthing is answering my prayers ...


you have to have correct conditions, and actually, you're about to get pwnd.

because the ONLY other planet in our solar system that could have had the proper conditions shows a STAGGERING amount of evidence for life, of course im talking about mars.

Of the amoebic kind. Mars has had just as much time as the earth and is not even CLOSE to the level of life that can be found on Earth.

why would you ask such a question if you had been reading about it?

'Cause I like to make you squirm. I know more than you probably think I know. I know much of Pangea and other similar theories of origin of life on Earth as well as the spread of life on Earth. That doesn't mean I can assume you know about it.

[barryllium]

the part of my life thats excited about scientific breakthroughs yes. but it ends there.

Really? You mean the fact that you choose to believe in the human mind instead of god also doesn't dictate that you don't a) go to church, b) pray, c) do good things for a reason other than god? As I said before, in not making one choice, you still make a choice.

only because you loosely follow your faith, if you were devout, you would never wonder how humans got here, or how stars are formed, or what the fate of the universe will be, and if you did, and voiced your opinions, what would the other devotees say?

Again, ugh. I follow my faith very strictly, actually. My faith is different from the persons that base their faith on different interpretations. I often have great talks/debates with people that think very differently - but because they are open-minded, they see how my beliefs and theirs can co-exist, we can believe different things and still recognize the humanity, rationality, and reasoning of each other. Of course, that only works if both people are open-minded...

ok then....name me a religion thats never been "misinterpreted"

Everything is misinterpreted. People misinterpret evolution. People misinterpret seatbelt laws. Misinterpretation is the fault of the interpreter, not the interpreted.

trust me, i dont want to start digging up the various horrible things about your particular religion

You are correct - because it would be pointless. I know lots of horrible things about my religion. As do most people. They say nothing about anyone but the people that performed those actions. They are meaningless in this debate - so you are right, you don't want to start digging them up. Allow me to summarize the argument here, so we can end it:

Your stance:
People of several religions have done horrible things, so religions are bad (and thus, atheism is superior).

My response:
People of all religions, including atheism, have done horrible things. The religions are not performing the actions, people are - and they are misinterpreting religions teachings to do so. Atheists misinterpret humanity to do so. Religions (including atheism) are not at fault, the people are - and their actions do not blanket the religions or the people that identify themselves with them.

[barryllium]

you're still confused

science doesn't figure anything out, humans do.

Not confused. Humans use the scientific method to figure things out.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

How am I closedminded? There is much evidence in my life to support my belief in God, just as there is much evidence to support evolution.

all of evidence has logical explanations, you just wish to believe god is responsible instead


So, people are closedminded if they're not open to the possibility that evolution has never actually happened and that every animal just appeared on earth from thin air?

if they are not even open to the possibility then yes, they are certainly close minded.


And, judging based on your comments, you are NOT open to the idea of God, let alone to the idea He created everything. Do not lie, it's bad enough you're arrogant and condescending.

oh im very open, i love science, and finding out god is real would be the biggest scientific discovery ever, i also love science fiction, and the idea that there are being out there capable of what god can do is both scary but thrilling.

makes me think of Q from star trek.








Of the amoebic kind. Mars has had just as much time as the earth and is not even CLOSE to the level of life that can be found on Earth.

mars has canals that don't look to be natural in nature, they look to be built as if by an intelligence.

also, the core of mars has cooled and that stopped it from producing a magnetic field, that allowed the full blast of the sun's radiation to destroy the surface, thats why life hasn't been able to continue there.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Not confused. Humans use the scientific method to figure things out.

but whats figuring it out?

which one has the gray matter, science or humans?

[barryllium]

but whats figuring it out?

which one has the gray matter, science or humans?

I don't think even you know what you are trying to prove by arguing semantics here.

Back to point - atheism is a religion. Thank you for helping me prove what the rest of us already knew.

[pookdogg7]

but whats figuring it out?

which one has the gray matter, science or humans?

Replace science with religion in this post ^ and you'll perhaps understand Barrylium's point that "People of all religions, including atheism, have done horrible things. The religions are not performing the actions, people are - and they are misinterpreting religions teachings to do so. Atheists misinterpret humanity to do so. Religions (including atheism) are not at fault, the people are - and their actions do not blanket the religions or the people that identify themselves with them."

[philhos]

all of evidence has logical explanations, you just wish to believe god is responsible instead

No, I wish to believe both. That God is responsible, but He chooses to act using science.

if they are not even open to the possibility then yes, they are certainly close minded.

And, yet, from most or your posts, it sounds like YOU are not even open to the possibility that God exists (you may be, but that doesn't come through in your written words).


mars has canals that don't look to be natural in nature, they look to be built as if by an intelligence.

also, the core of mars has cooled and that stopped it from producing a magnetic field, that allowed the full blast of the sun's radiation to destroy the surface, thats why life hasn't been able to continue there.

Know this for a fact, do ya?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Replace science with religion in this post ^ and you'll perhaps understand Barrylium's point that "People of all religions, including atheism, have done horrible things. The religions are not performing the actions, people are - and they are misinterpreting religions teachings to do so. Atheists misinterpret humanity to do so. Religions (including atheism) are not at fault, the people are - and their actions do not blanket the religions or the people that identify themselves with them."

not believing in god is not a religion

sure some people can make it their life, but simply having no religion is not a religion, lets all be correct about that.

saying that religions dont kill and only people do is a cop out

its the same argument that says guns dont kill, people do

if you didn't have the gun, you likely wouldn't kill

if you didn't the religion, you wouldn't do the horrible action its telling you to

its very very simple

if left to themselves-----

a good man will do good things, an evil man will do evil things.

[34inXXIII]

Here are some definitions of religion:
*a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects
*the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices
*something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

This is what I got for atheism:
1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God. 2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Seems like the proof is in the puddin:thumbsup: Atheist are a number of persons who generally agree upon specific fundamental beliefs and it is something people believe in and follow devotedly.
Not this nonsense again. :rolleyes:

I guess believing in aliens is a religion - meaning believing in aliens in general, that is, not a specific alien as with Scientology.

And let's not forget the Church of the Grassy Knoll, whose "parishioners" believe in the JFK conspiracy theory.

I've never really gotten why some people are so desperate to paint atheism as some kind of religion. Is it some skewed strategy at convincing atheists that they're beliefs are wrong by insisting to those who insist they are not religious that they actually are part of a religion?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

No, I wish to believe both. That God is responsible, but He chooses to act using science.

he chooses to act using our method of understanding nature??

can you rephrase that?



And, yet, from most or your posts, it sounds like YOU are not even open to the possibility that God exists (you may be, but that doesn't come through in your written words).

i was a christian until around 12 years of age when i started getting interested in science, reading about the brutality of the universe showed our idea of god was wrong.


Know this for a fact, do ya?

well we know that mars has no electromagnetic field, and we know thats what protects a planet from radiation, so yes, we know it for a fact.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I don't think even you know what you are trying to prove by arguing semantics here.

Back to point - atheism is a religion. Thank you for helping me prove what the rest of us already knew.

ok then, lets say atheism is a religion, what then do you call a person with no religion?

i dont know that god does or doesn't exist, but i know that god doesn't meddle in our affairs, and i have no religion

what would you call me?

[34inXXIII]

not believing in god is not a religion

sure some people can make it their life, but simply having no religion is not a religion, lets all be correct about that.

saying that religions dont kill and only people do is a cop out

its the same argument that says guns dont kill, people do

if you didn't have the gun, you likely wouldn't kill

if you didn't the religion, you wouldn't do the horrible action its telling you to

its very very simple

if left to themselves-----

a good man will do good things, an evil man will do evil things.
sloppy, there are a lot of very good things that religion has provided our existence, both locally and on a grander scale (and this is coming from an atheist). To insist religion is the root of all evil in otherwise good men and women is an awfully strong statement and one that is potentially offensive to many, many people here and elsewhere.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

sloppy, there are a lot of very good things that religion has provided our existence, both locally and on a grander scale (and this is coming from an atheist). To insist religion is the root of all evil in otherwise good men and women is an awfully strong statement and one that is potentially offensive to many, many people here and elsewhere.

by NO means what so ever do i say that religion is the root of all evil.

but i do believe it is responsible for more hate in the world than any other idea.

think about it, without religions people would kill each other over land, resources and race.

one less thing to fight about no?

[pookdogg7]

a good man will do good things, an evil man will do evil things.

Exactly. Regardless of his religion or lack of it.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

by NO means what so ever do i say that religion is the root of all evil.

but i do believe it is responsible for more hate in the world than any other idea.

think about it, without religions people would kill each other over land, resources and race.

one less thing to fight about no?

If you think about it, we already kill ourselves for those reasons....religion just adds another reason. However, it doesn't dispute the fact that people will find reasons to kill each other despite religion. To me this is a no brainer (also coming from an atheist or agnostic, however you care to describe it) Religion does not = death, destruction, or evil, though people prescribing to those religions may have been guilty of it. My family is predominataly christian, most are sane and realize that not everybody is evil, no matter what there religion is.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

If you think about it, we already kill ourselves for those reasons....religion just adds another reason. However, it doesn't dispute the fact that people will find reasons to kill each other despite religion. To me this is a no brainer (also coming from an atheist or agnostic, however you care to describe it) Religion does not = death, destruction, or evil, though people prescribing to those religions may have been guilty of it. My family is predominataly christian, most are sane and realize that not everybody is evil, no matter what there religion is.

i agree with most of that, except that religion does not=equal death, destruction, or evil

show me an established religion who's past is free of death, destruction and evil.

if you can't, than logically religion does equal death, it just also promotes some good things as well, but im just not willing to take the good with the bad on this.

[pookdogg7]

i agree with most of that, except that religion does not=equal death, destruction, or evil

show me an established religion who's past is free of death, destruction and evil.

if you can't, than logically religion does equal death, it just also promotes some good things as well, but im just not willing to take the good with the bad on this.

Show me an established country who's past is free of death and destruction. The common denominator is people and individuals making decisions, sometimes religion is used as an excuse for evil, but only when individuals misinterpret it.

You have no choice to accept that there is good and bad people in all religions and non-religions (using your interpretation). It is fact proven with the evidence of history.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Show me an established country who's past is free of death and destruction. The common denominator is people and individuals making decisions, sometimes religion is used as an excuse for evil, but only when individuals misinterpret it.

You have no choice to accept that there is good and bad people in all religions and non-religions (using your interpretation). It is fact proven with the evidence of history.

since religion is ubiquitous to every country on earth that argument doesn't make sense.

some people bring up stalin or pol pot but even they used the people's religious belief to gain their power.

im sick of this "interpretation" argument, read the old testament and tell me how many different ways there are to interpret the violence in it, read the new testament and tell me how many ways there are you interpret the lie of original sin, or the myth of hell.

read the quran and tell me how muslims have "missinterpreted" its guidance to hate zionists and force others to believe in one god and one god only.

if so many many many people have misinterpreted religion in a evil way since its very creation, what does that tell you about religion?

[barryllium]

ok then, lets say atheism is a religion, what then do you call a person with no religion?

i dont know that god does or doesn't exist, but i know that god doesn't meddle in our affairs, and i have no religion

what would you call me?

That would be agnostic.

[barryllium]

by NO means what so ever do i say that religion is the root of all evil.

but i do believe it is responsible for more hate in the world than any other idea.

think about it, without religions people would kill each other over land, resources and race.

one less thing to fight about no?

People will always find something to fight about. If there were no religions, the people that want to fight would find something else to fight about. Thus, it is not the religions, it is the people. In the end, you don't do something about the reason, you do something about the people.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

That would be agnostic.

ok then, ive never once in my life called myself an atheist or an agnostic, i just say i dont believe in god, but people always wish to label that, so that can lump it in with all of the other "bad belief" systems, bad being not their own.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

People will always find something to fight about. If there were no religions, the people that want to fight would find something else to fight about. Thus, it is not the religions, it is the people. In the end, you don't do something about the reason, you do something about the people.

well certainly we should do everything we can to remove reasons to fight, think about all of the death that could avoided without religion?

of all the reasons people go to war, religion is the only one that seems possible to solve

[barryllium]

Not this nonsense again. :rolleyes:

I guess believing in aliens is a religion - meaning believing in aliens in general, that is, not a specific alien as with Scientology.

And let's not forget the Church of the Grassy Knoll, whose "parishioners" believe in the JFK conspiracy theory.

I've never really gotten why some people are so desperate to paint atheism as some kind of religion. Is it some skewed strategy at convincing atheists that they're beliefs are wrong by insisting to those who insist they are not religious that they actually are part of a religion?

I hate to disagree with you 34, but I'm gonna have to here. As I said earlier in this thread, atheism is to religion as black is to colors. Even though black is "the absense of color", it is indeed still a color. Atheism chooses not to believe that god exists, and thus creates a set of moral codes on humanity (and other reasons) instead of based on a belief of god. By choosing to not believe in god, a choice is still made. One could argue that atheism is not an organized religion (as I believe you have, whether you knew it or not) - and that would be correct - but based on the definition of religion (and not just semantically), it is a religion.

The other "ideologies" you mentioned do not center around a belief (or non-belief) in god at all, so they are not fair comparisons.

Another example - the idea of anarchy. While anarchy does not contain a governmental structure, it is indeed a form of government. The people govern themselves, and are thus each "the government" of themselves. Thus, the lack of a governmental structure does not prohibit anarchy from being a form of government. It's not an organized government, but it is indeed a system of such.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I hate to disagree with you 34, but I'm gonna have to here. As I said earlier in this thread, atheism is to religion as black is to colors. Even though black is "the absense of color", it is indeed still a color. Atheism chooses not to believe that god exists, and thus creates a set of moral codes on humanity (and other reasons) instead of based on a belief of god. By choosing to not believe in god, a choice is still made. One could argue that atheism is not an organized religion (as I believe you have, whether you knew it or not) - and that would be correct - but based on the definition of religion (and not just semantically), it is a religion.

The other "ideologies" you mentioned do not center around a belief (or non-belief) in god at all, so they are not fair comparisons.

Another example - the idea of anarchy. While anarchy does not contain a governmental structure, it is indeed a form of government. The people govern themselves, and are thus each "the government" of themselves. Thus, the lack of a governmental structure does not prohibit anarchy from being a form of government. It's not an organized government, but it is indeed a system of such.

what moral codes do atheist collectively set on humanity?

this argument seems like a way for believers to bring non-believers down a peg, and say "well you're no smarter than us, you still believe in something"

but non-believers don't "believe" in anything, i think the big bang happened because of the evidence, but it's not something i "believe in" like i believe in america, or in the ability of humans to overcome and adapt.

[barryllium]

well certainly we should do everything we can to remove reasons to fight, think about all of the death that could avoided without religion?

of all the reasons people go to war, religion is the only one that seems possible to solve

Believe me, I really do see your reasoning. But allow me to attempt to provide an example to explain why getting rid of religion wouldn't really solve anything.

Let's say we have two brothers, and the circumstances of how they were raised (inconsequential to this example) has created animosity between them. Now, they have 5 toys that they constantly fight over. Is the way to correct this issue to continually take one of the toys away? No. Once all the toys are gone, they will find yet another reason to fight. The correct thing to do would be to attempt to find ways to get the brothers to not fight over the toys - as taking away the toys is merely putting a band-aid on a bullet-hole. If that doesn't work, different approaches need to be taken (separating them, finding help with working with them, etc.).

How can this apply to religion? Taking away religion will not stop fighting between people - they will find another thing to fight about. How do we get them to work together? I'm not smart enough to figure that one out - but that's what we really need to do.

[barryllium]

what moral codes do atheist collectively set on humanity?

this argument seems like a way for believers to bring non-believers down a peg, and say "well you're no smarter than us, you still believe in something"

but non-believers don't "believe" in anything, i think the big bang happened because of the evidence, but it's not something i "believe in" like i believe in america, or in the ability of humans to overcome and adapt.

Since atheists/agnostics (they are not truly lumped together, but for my purposes here I will do such) are not part of an organized religion (the key word being organized), they don't have a set of scripture or anything like other religions do. The common thread, though, is that they value humanity for reasons of humanity (as opposed to religions that value humanity for humanity and godly reasons).

This argument is in no way meant to bring people down a peg - because I believe atheists and members of all religion to be on the same level. Believing that someone is higher or lower because of their religion is the mistake. I view my lifestyle to be higher than those that choose to kill people - but that is not based on religion. I don't view atheists above christians, or vice versa. It is attempting to breed an air of superiority that causes many of the problems between all religions - whether it be Muslim/Jew, Christian/Atheist, Buddhist/Hindu. No one needs to be "brought down a peg" if they don't view themselves superior to begin with.

Non believers do believe - they believe there is no god. And they believe in doing what they believe is right based on their own moral/ethical code. That is, in essense, the antithesis to believers believing in god, and doing so based on a combination of their religions moral/ethical code combined with their own free thought (and personal moral/ethical code devised combining the two).

Hopefully this makes sense. I can understand if you have felt - both on these message boards and in life - that people view you lesser because you are a non-believer. But when people do that, they are in fact disrespecting your beliefs, and it is wrong. The same can be said for an atheist that attempts to make a believer feel lesser.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Believe me, I really do see your reasoning. But allow me to attempt to provide an example to explain why getting rid of religion wouldn't really solve anything.

Let's say we have two brothers, and the circumstances of how they were raised (inconsequential to this example) has created animosity between them. Now, they have 5 toys that they constantly fight over. Is the way to correct this issue to continually take one of the toys away? No. Once all the toys are gone, they will find yet another reason to fight. The correct thing to do would be to attempt to find ways to get the brothers to not fight over the toys - as taking away the toys is merely putting a band-aid on a bullet-hole. If that doesn't work, different approaches need to be taken (separating them, finding help with working with them, etc.).

How can this apply to religion? Taking away religion will not stop fighting between people - they will find another thing to fight about. How do we get them to work together? I'm not smart enough to figure that one out - but that's what we really need to do.

i agree that fanatics with religion are comparable to children with toys, nothing but fear and anger.

but i think you're down playing how much religion plays in the warring of nations.

honestly i think there is only one thing that will make people realize we're in the together, for the planet, and not our tribe, and that one thing is finding intelligent alien life, never happen though.

[barryllium]

i agree that fanatics with religion are comparable to children with toys, nothing but fear and anger.

but i think you're down playing how much religion plays in the warring of nations.

honestly i think there is only one thing that will make people realize we're in the together, for the planet, and not our tribe, and that one thing is finding intelligent alien life, never happen though.

If I'm downplaying how much religion plays (although I still argue it is there interpretation of their religion - not the actual religion that is the issue), it is because there really is no "getting rid of religion". We will never have everyone believe the same things, hence the reason all religions should be given due respect.

I don't even know if alien life will bring everyone together, honestly. All we can continue to do as a human race is continue to be understanding, spread knowledge and kindness, and accept people. The more we do that, the more other people may start to do the same.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Since atheists/agnostics (they are not truly lumped together, but for my purposes here I will do such) are not part of an organized religion (the key word being organized), they don't have a set of scripture or anything like other religions do. The common thread, though, is that they value humanity for reasons of humanity (as opposed to religions that value humanity for humanity and godly reasons).

This argument is in no way meant to bring people down a peg - because I believe atheists and members of all religion to be on the same level. Believing that someone is higher or lower because of their religion is the mistake. I view my lifestyle to be higher than those that choose to kill people - but that is not based on religion. I don't view atheists above christians, or vice versa. It is attempting to breed an air of superiority that causes many of the problems between all religions - whether it be Muslim/Jew, Christian/Atheist, Buddhist/Hindu. No one needs to be "brought down a peg" if they don't view themselves superior to begin with.

Non believers do believe - they believe there is no god. And they believe in doing what they believe is right based on their own moral/ethical code. That is, in essense, the antithesis to believers believing in god, and doing so based on a combination of their religions moral/ethical code combined with their own free thought (and personal moral/ethical code devised combining the two).

Hopefully this makes sense. I can understand if you have felt - both on these message boards and in life - that people view you lesser because you are a non-believer. But when people do that, they are in fact disrespecting your beliefs, and it is wrong. The same can be said for an atheist that attempts to make a believer feel lesser.

its probably more accurate to say i think there is no god, i dont believe there is none because hey, who the eff knows? but i dont think there is, and that comes from scientific research showing everything works fine in the universe without any indication of a god.

to say i believe there is no god would imply i dont want there to be a god, which is not accurate, i simpy want to know the truth, and the best truth so far is there no reason to believe there is a god, everything in the universe has an explanation.

as far as all religions being equal, this is where i have to disagree.

im sorry for how hateful it sounds, but some religions are not as advanced as others, of course im talking about islam, and even though yes i know moderate muslims are good people, i dont think islam is what made them that way.

there are more people living in a dark age barbaric islamic fashion than there are people in america, and i just cant bring myself to agree that that way of life is equal to our own.

[pookdogg7]

since religion is ubiquitous to every country on earth that argument doesn't make sense.

some people bring up stalin or pol pot but even they used the people's religious belief to gain their power.

im sick of this "interpretation" argument, read the old testament and tell me how many different ways there are to interpret the violence in it, read the new testament and tell me how many ways there are you interpret the lie of original sin, or the myth of hell.

read the quran and tell me how muslims have "missinterpreted" its guidance to hate zionists and force others to believe in one god and one god only.


My point was that established religions have been around long enough that some points in their histories are tainted by death and destruction, just like countries. Does the fact that colonists slaughtered Native Americans make America or Americans evil?

if so many many many people have misinterpreted religion in a evil way since its very creation, what does that tell you about religion?

It tells me that some people use it as an excuse to be evil, but they are missing key elements of their own religion which tell them that what they are doing is wrong. But as you said yourself "a good man will do good things, an evil man will do evil things."

Most conflicts are caused by an imbalance of things, whether it be gold, land, rights, etc. with the people on the low end of the scales in conflict with those on the opposite end. It had been a long time since large scale conflicts were caused by religion alone, even in the Middle East.

Key elements of the Old Tetament, New Testament, and Quran explain that killing is wrong. The problem exists when people take things out of context or misinterpret them. Like you have done in many posts here.

Maybe religion isn't right for you since you have a tendency to do this, but it provides guidance and a reason to do good for most, which is a key reason for their existance on top of providing answers which science cannot provide (I'll add in a yet here to keep you happy).

[pookdogg7]

its probably more accurate to say i think there is no god, i dont believe there is none because hey, who the eff knows? but i dont think there is, and that comes from scientific research showing everything works fine in the universe without any indication of a god.

to say i believe there is no god would imply i dont want there to be a god, which is not accurate, i simpy want to know the truth, and the best truth so far is there no reason to believe there is a god, everything in the universe has an explanation.


Let my try this, do you believe your life has a purpose?

If so, what is it?

[Corrupt3d]

read the quran and tell me how muslims have "missinterpreted" its guidance to hate zionists and force others to believe in one god and one god only.

I've memorized it. In English and Arabic. Have you read it in its entirety and not just selected quotes taken fully out of context?


BTW, Christianity and Judaism force people to believe in one and one god only...that god also happens to be the one Muslims force others into believing as well.

[Corrupt3d]

its probably more accurate to say i think there is no god, i dont believe there is none because hey, who the eff knows? but i dont think there is, and that comes from scientific research showing everything works fine in the universe without any indication of a god.

to say i believe there is no god would imply i dont want there to be a god, which is not accurate, i simpy want to know the truth, and the best truth so far is there no reason to believe there is a god, everything in the universe has an explanation.

as far as all religions being equal, this is where i have to disagree.

im sorry for how hateful it sounds, but some religions are not as advanced as others, of course im talking about islam, and even though yes i know moderate muslims are good people, i dont think islam is what made them that way.

there are more people living in a dark age barbaric islamic fashion than there are people in america, and i just cant bring myself to agree that that way of life is equal to our own.

Honestly, I dont believe you do. But we arent gonna argue about that.

What you need to realize, is that Orthodox Jews and strict Catholics disagree with what America has to offer as well. And, surprise surprise, the strict Muslims aren't the ones who live up to the West's standards either. But you're generalizing a third world country (countries) into a whole religion - the one that has added a lot to Science in the past, might I add - ever been to the U.A.E.? Riyad? Trust me, we're not as "backwards" as you think we are.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

My point was that established religions have been around long enough that some points in their histories are tainted by death and destruction, just like countries. Does the fact that colonists slaughtered Native Americans make America or Americans evil?

by todays standards yes, by the standards of the time, no.

but just like governments evolve, religions need to evolve, some are, but many others are in fact de-evolving.



It tells me that some people use it as an excuse to be evil, but they are missing key elements of their own religion which tell them that what they are doing is wrong. But as you said yourself "a good man will do good things, an evil man will do evil things."


so what about when a religion makes a good man do an evil thing? what about when it forces terrible customs on them, like circumcision, or racism, or misogyny?

its not just the violence, its the backwards ideas it gives people who are interpreting it EXACTLY the way it was intended.

for it's entire existence the catholic church said babies who die before they get baptized do not go to heaven, they just now retracted that but for the last 2000 years billions of people believed that.

Most conflicts are caused by an imbalance of things, whether it be gold, land, rights, etc. with the people on the low end of the scales in conflict with those on the opposite end. It had been a long time since large scale conflicts were caused by religion alone, even in the Middle East.

would the hijackers have crashed those plans on 9/11 if they weren't islamic and believed their martyrdom was a ticket to heaven?

you ask me the biggest conflict of this new century is because of religion


Key elements of the Old Tetament, New Testament, and Quran explain that killing is wrong. The problem exists when people take things out of context or misinterpret them. Like you have done in many posts here.

it says killing is wrong but then shows so many examples of where killing is justified, so how did god expect people to "interpret" that?


Maybe religion isn't right for you since you have a tendency to do this, but it provides guidance and a reason to do good for most, which is a key reason for their existance on top of providing answers which science cannot provide (I'll add in a yet here to keep you happy).

now that science has all the answers and we know that solidarity is innate in humans, why do you need religion

really ask yourself that, knowing what humans know now, why do we really need religion?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Let my try this, do you believe your life has a purpose?

If so, what is it?


my only real purpose is to be a vessel for my DNA

the purpose my mind gives me is to absorb knowledge

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I've memorized it. In English and Arabic. Have you read it in its entirety and not just selected quotes taken fully out of context?


BTW, Christianity and Judaism force people to believe in one and one god only...that god also happens to be the one Muslims force others into believing as well.

there ain't no americans preachin the words of jesus in saudi, ill give you three guesses as to why that is.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Honestly, I dont believe you do. But we arent gonna argue about that.

What you need to realize, is that Orthodox Jews and strict Catholics disagree with what America has to offer as well. And, surprise surprise, the strict Muslims aren't the ones who live up to the West's standards either. But you're generalizing a third world country (countries) into a whole religion - the one that has added a lot to Science in the past, might I add - ever been to the U.A.E.? Riyad? Trust me, we're not as "backwards" as you think we are.


the mojority of the religion comes from those countries.

why can't islam put together a functioning country? why are all the immigration out? you dont see americans leaving america in droves.

never lived in riyadh, one of my best friends lived there for years, the stories are not good. if you're a man, you can pretty much do whatever you like, if you're a woman, you're property.

the worst thing about saudi is that the greedy princes don't distribute the oil money amongst the people.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Honestly, I dont believe you do. But we arent gonna argue about that.



this is what happens when traditional islamic values meet the west

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019122.php

[jamiethelanky]

I say no.

The "prophecies" are nothing but half-baked guesses IMO. A sort of recruitment tool as people would be drawn to the religion thinking it would be great because it knows where it is going.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I say no.

The "prophecies" are nothing but half-baked guesses IMO. A sort of recruitment tool as people would be drawn to the religion thinking it would be great because it knows where it is going.

interesting because most every religion has prophecies

so do you believe in the religion but not it's prophecies?

[Corrupt3d]

this is what happens when traditional islamic values meet the west

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019122.php

I'm "Islam meets West" and I haven't killed anyone. And regardless of what you think (to which I could really care less), more people are like me than that man in the article.

[jamiethelanky]

interesting because most every religion has prophecies

so do you believe in the religion but not it's prophecies?
Yes and no. I believe the prophecies are made with a certain degree of educated guesswork - they are not prophecies as much as I can prophesise that it will be sunny in the future.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I'm "Islam meets West" and I haven't killed anyone. And regardless of what you think (to which I could really care less), more people are like me than that man in the article.

like i said man, you don't practice the same islam your brothers do, and thats what islam so scary.

just like america, it can say one thing and do another.

"islam is a religion of peace"-"behead those who insult islam"

let me ask you this do you bow to mecca 5 times a day?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Yes and no. I believe the prophecies are made with a certain degree of educated guesswork - they are not prophecies as much as I can prophesise that it will be sunny in the future.

so then the prophecies are not the word of god?

they are the words of humans and thus open to interpretation?

[jamiethelanky]

so then the prophecies are not the word of god?

they are the words of humans and thus open to interpretation?
Yes.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

another thing about islam ive noticed, ive known some muslim men who were incredible liars, they could lie us into a club, lie us out of ticket so on and so forth.

i noticed this more and more until one day i was cool enough with them to ask, the answer really made me mad, but i can't blame them as it's there religion, not them.

they are allowed to lie to non-muslims, its not a sin to lie to an infidel, only another muslim.

[jamiethelanky]

another thing about islam ive noticed, ive known some muslim men who were incredible liars, they could lie us into a club, lie us out of ticket so on and so forth.

i noticed this more and more until one day i was cool enough with them to ask, the answer really made me mad, but i can't blame them as it's there religion, not them.

they are allowed to lie to non-muslims, its not a sin to lie to an infidel, only another muslim.
THAT IS ENOUGH! That is racism, pure and simple.

I want this to be nipped in the bud by the mods.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

THAT IS ENOUGH! That is racism, pure and simple.

I want this to be nipped in the bud by the mods.

no its not, a race is not a religion, and im only saying what they told me about themselves.

did i say they were evil?

no.

i said muslims are allowed to lie to non-muslims without it being a sin, how is that racism?

did i mention any race at all?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

THAT IS ENOUGH! That is racism, pure and simple.

I want this to be nipped in the bud by the mods.

if you dont believe me, read for yourself

http://hauns.com/%7EDCQu4E5g/koran5.html

[NashvilleBengalfan]

THAT IS ENOUGH! That is racism, pure and simple.

I want this to be nipped in the bud by the mods.

http://3rdsaturdayinblogtober.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/barney.jpg

[kevin28_1962]

I believe the end of the world to be December 12, 2012 because Fox Mulder said so. I'm guessing the Bengals will probably be 13-0 on that date. <_<


Just our luck!

[Corrupt3d]

if you dont believe me, read for yourself

http://hauns.com/%7EDCQu4E5g/koran5.html

right back at you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

"Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury."

If they're lying to "non-muslims" about everything because they feel its justified, than its wrong. Furthermore, Taqiyya is a Shiite belief, not shared by Sunni's.

[Corrupt3d]

like i said man, you don't practice the same islam your brothers do, and thats what islam so scary.

just like america, it can say one thing and do another.

"islam is a religion of peace"-"behead those who insult islam"

let me ask you this do you bow to mecca 5 times a day?



Yes I do, and if I dont its because I have a damn good reason.

And I practice the same islam my "brothers" do, thank you very much, I think I'll be the judge on that one since I have a bit more authority than you on the matter. The ones that do all the wrong things, terrorism, murder for heinous reasons, they practice the wrong Islam, but of course this weakens your argument so it CANT be true.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

right back at you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya



If they're lying to "non-muslims" because they feel its justified, than its wrong. Furthermore, Taqiyya is a Shiite belief, not shared by Sunni's.
hahahah

i love these lines

Let not the believers Take for guiders or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you

Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith, but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty

so this definition shows it as being something you use when threated, but it has changed over time to be permissable way to deceive the kuffar

like i said man, say one thing and do another.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Yes I do, and if I dont its because I have a damn good reason.

And I practice the same islam my "brothers" do, thank you very much, I think I'll be the judge on that one since I have a bit more authority than you on the matter. The ones that do all the wrong things, terrorism, murder for heinous reasons, they practice the wrong Islam, but of course this weakens your argument so it CANT be true.

the wrong islam??

wrong is relative, what if they are the ones that win the civil war going on in your religion, then you'll be the wrong kind of muslim.

and what about the sharia countries too? is that the wrong islam?

i love to hear that way of life defended

[Corrupt3d]

hahahah

i love these lines

Let not the believers Take for guiders or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you

Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith, but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty

so this definition shows it as being something you use when threated, but it has changed over time to be permissable way to deceive the kuffar

like i said man, say one thing and do another.



I'm going to say this once, in big font because I think you're blind.

IT'S NOT PERMISSABLE TO LIE FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN SAVING YOUR OWN ****ING ***


like i said man, keep posting false information and ignore someone who's trying to prove you wrong.

[Corrupt3d]

the wrong islam??

wrong is relative, what if they are the ones that win the civil war going on in your religion, then you'll be the wrong kind of muslim.

and what about the sharia countries too? is that the wrong islam?

i love to hear that way of life defended




well, my wrong is the minority compared to my right.

second, you've never proven that you actually understand what sharia is and that all these "sharia law countries" you constantly reference practice an insanely incorrect form of sharia.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I'm going to say this once, in big font because I think you're blind.

IT'S NOT PERMISSABLE TO LIE FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN SAVING YOUR OWN ****ING ***


like i said man, keep posting false information and ignore someone who's trying to prove you wrong.

we've been talking a lot about interpretation, how people have "misinterpreted" the religion

let me ask you this, if you were to ask people in saudi, or somalia, or iran, "is it ok to lie to the kuffar?"

what do you really think they would say?

[Corrupt3d]

we've been talking a lot about interpretation, how people have "misinterpreted" the religion

let me ask you this, if you were to ask people in saudi, or somalia, or iran, "is it ok to lie to the kuffar?"

what do you really think they would say?




they would say no.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

well, my wrong is the minority compared to my right.

second, you've never proven that you actually understand what sharia is and that all these "sharia law countries" you constantly reference practice an insanely incorrect form of sharia.

i dont believe any form of sharia is correct, and after doing a little math, there is at LEAST 520 million muslims living under sharia

how do i prove to understand sharia? use wikki like you did?

[kevin28_1962]

no its not, a race is not a religion, and im only saying what they told me about themselves.

did i say they were evil?

no.

i said muslims are allowed to lie to non-muslims without it being a sin, how is that racism?

did i mention any race at all?

even though you're correct on the fact that it isn't racism because Muslim/Islam is a religion not a race of people you are still being discriminatory towards that religious group. I think you've demonstrated your religious intolerance more than enough in this thread and the other thread regarding the Muslim threatening to kill the service dog.

dis·crim·i·na·tion Audio Help /dɪˌskrɪməˈneɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

they would say no.

******** and you know it. heck they preach its ok to lie to the kuffar here in west, you don't think they do it over there?

[Corrupt3d]

i dont believe any form of sharia is correct, and after doing a little math, there is at LEAST 520 million muslims living under sharia

how do i prove to understand sharia? use wikki like you did?



How about take the time to actually learn about it? From non biased websites? Like I did.

[Corrupt3d]

BULLSH#T and you know it. heck they preach its ok to lie to the kuffar here in west, you don't think they do it over there?




BULL-****ING-****. You're only saying BS because I disagreed with you. Lying is a sin in Islam, no where is it justified. And quote where you found that people preach that its okay to lie to the kuffar here.



EDIT: Not everyone there is an American-hating *******, and thats something you need to understand

[jamiethelanky]

/dɪˌskrɪməˈneɪʃən/ .
The schwa (3rd vowel) should be secondary vowel 1 (/y/).

Boo that dictionary.

[kevin28_1962]

The schwa (3rd vowel) should be secondary vowel 1 (/y/).

Boo that dictionary.

yes head schoolmaster :rotf:

[Corrupt3d]

You know what SLS? You've won, I give up. Lemme throw up the white flag.

All of us Muslims carry hand granades, AK47's and wear bomb vests. You happy?


Cause I dont think you're gonna actually understand anything about my religion unless it agrees with your pre-tainted viewpoint. You're right, sharia law is goign to take over the world and kill everyone. Muslims hate everyone. You happy? Is that what you were looking for?


I'm done with you, and mostly done with this forum. You've made me lose faith in an educated America.

[barryllium]

its probably more accurate to say i think there is no god, i dont believe there is none because hey, who the eff knows? but i dont think there is, and that comes from scientific research showing everything works fine in the universe without any indication of a god.

to say i believe there is no god would imply i dont want there to be a god, which is not accurate, i simpy want to know the truth, and the best truth so far is there no reason to believe there is a god, everything in the universe has an explanation.

as far as all religions being equal, this is where i have to disagree.

im sorry for how hateful it sounds, but some religions are not as advanced as others, of course im talking about islam, and even though yes i know moderate muslims are good people, i dont think islam is what made them that way.

there are more people living in a dark age barbaric islamic fashion than there are people in america, and i just cant bring myself to agree that that way of life is equal to our own.

I'm sure others have touched on this by now (I go away for an hour or so, and look what happens...). I don't think you have a clear picture on all the layers of religion. I'll attempt to give this a simplified explanation. Here are the layers:

Scripture
"Dogma"
Teaching/Interpretation of scripture
Teacher/Interpreter of scripture
Community
Individual

Now, the first two layers are unchanging. For Islam, the Scripture would be the Qur'an - it is written word, it is static. The Qur'an has been beaten into the ground here, and due to my limited knowledge of it, I'm not going to touch it, and I ask we leave it alone for now. The second layer (from my understanding) would be the Five Pillars of Islam - the things you must to as a Muslim. There is nothing inherently wrong with the Five Pillars of Islam. After that, you start getting people covering the gamut from fundamentalist to liberal. You can have teachings of the Qur'an and other ideas of Islam cover that range. You can have a full range of teachers teaching anywhere within the range of the interpretations. You can have a wide range of communities within each Mosque/larger community. And you can have a wide range of individuals in each community. To say that Islam does not make people good people ignores this whole idea.

For instance, using my own knowledge, I go to a fairly liberal Catholic church. Within this church, there are several small communities of people that range from very liberal to very conservative (if not fundamentalist, so to speak). And, even within my small community, I am by far the most liberal, but my best friend (outside of my wife) is one of the most conservative Catholics I know. And, we each become better people by being around each other - and our bettering of each other is made possible by our presence within our church community. We are, indeed, made better by our faith - even if it is not the same, and not entirely in line with all of the Catholic scripture.

To say a similar situation to this does not exist within the Islamic faith would be ignorant. Considering all the permutations possible, even in a "controlled system" such as one single religion, I guarantee there are many, many, many people that are made good/better people by the Islamic faith. I understand your knowledge of the Qur'an, your trepidation about the religion, and everything else, but I guarantee I am correct here.