Campus tirade against Pro Life Students

[GoldenArm9]

This is just unbelievable....
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Education/Default.aspx?id=129014
and here is the video ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5NeLyMZUYM

the student at that school should have been arrested then expelled ....

and if you think this is the first time and it was only done by a student ..wrong ...it was done right near Cincinnati at NKU by a Dr. Sally Jacobsen a teacher at the University ...

http://media.www.thenortherner.com/media/storage/paper527/news/2006/04/12/News/Right.To.Life.Group.To.Press.Charges.Against.Prote stors-1851538.shtml?norewrite200604140955&sourcedomain=www.thenortherner.com

[jamiethelanky]

This is just unbelievable....
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Education/Default.aspx?id=129014
and here is the video ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5NeLyMZUYM

the student at that school should have been arrested then expelled ....

and if you think this is the first time and it was only done by a student ..wrong ...it was done right near Cincinnati at NKU by a Dr. Sally Jacobsen a teacher at the University ...

http://media.www.thenortherner.com/media/storage/paper527/news/2006/04/12/News/Right.To.Life.Group.To.Press.Charges.Against.Prote stors-1851538.shtml?norewrite200604140955&sourcedomain=www.thenortherner.com
I don't agree with his viewpoint but he had every right to make his protest.

[GoldenArm9]

I don't agree with his viewpoint but he had every right to make his protest.
He didn't have the right to tear down the display ...

[jamiethelanky]

He didn't have the right to tear down the display ...
It's on public land, he did.

[Jasonew6]

When I was a student at UC, I was involved in the pro-life group there. We also put up The Cemetary of the Innocents one year while I was there. (BTW, this is more focused on mourning the babies than protesting abortion). We had our share of problems as well. We had a few protesters, and on at least one occasion a woman came in and startid pulling out crosses and throwing them. One of our female officers sat down and talked with her. This college age girl had already had 3 or 4 abortions, and seeing the crosses (and stars of David as well) was painful for her.

It's sad what abortion does to the woman, as well as the baby.

[Ericw712]

It's on public land, he did.
Not if the student obtained permission from the school to put up the display. Just like no one has a right to rip apart anti-war/anti-bush signs at an approved (permitted) protest-rally. That, my friend, is vandalism.

[BANJAXED]

I don't agree with his viewpoint but he had every right to make his protest.

It's his right to go on a vandalizing tirade on a peaceful demonstration approved by the student's college? He obviously stepped over the line between simply disagreeing and being an idiot.

If you don't like the over-all make-up of your college then transfer. Conservatives face oppression? He should've attended my college then - 100% Righties and he wouldn't of had to worry about it.

[Ericw712]

Wow, this is iroinc:
"While King was knocking over the white crosses, he stated that the pro-life group had no right to challenge abortion because it was made legal in 1973 following the Roe v. Wade decision by the U.S. Supreme Court"

So since the government said so, it makes it right... so since the government approved the war in Iraq we can not protest since its unfair to those who made the decision to invade Iraq.

Talk about two-faced, self-centered BS... "as long as it applies to my cause its ok, but once it has do with something I don't agree with..."

[kevin28_1962]

If you don't like the over-all make-up of your college then transfer. Conservatives face oppression? He should've attended my college then - 100% Righties and he wouldn't of had to worry about it.

there were no left-handed people in your school? WOW, what's the odd's of that? :rotf:

[GoldenArm9]

When I was a student at UC, I was involved in the pro-life group there. We also put up The Cemetary of the Innocents one year while I was there. (BTW, this is more focused on mourning the babies than protesting abortion). We had our share of problems as well. We had a few protesters, and on at least one occasion a woman came in and startid pulling out crosses and throwing them. One of our female officers sat down and talked with her. This college age girl had already had 3 or 4 abortions, and seeing the crosses (and stars of David as well) was painful for her.

It's sad what abortion does to the woman, as well as the baby.
This is just one instance and who knows how many more women who had abortions feel the same way as she does/did ...this just proves what effects abortion has on women who have them ...and yes they could go get help by a mental health specialist but the question why be subjugated to that ...?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

even i think abortion should still legal, imagine how our pathetic birth rates would sky rocket if it wasn't.

in 100 years when we are SEVERELY out numbered this will be important.

[BANJAXED]

there were no left-handed people in your school? WOW, what's the odd's of that? :rotf:

Nerd! :p

[warsteiner138]

even i think abortion should still legal, imagine how our pathetic birth rates would sky rocket if it wasn't.

in 100 years when we are SEVERELY out numbered this will be important.

explain please

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

explain please

pretty simple

our enemies birth rates are several times higher than our own.

i dont want to get into a racial thing, but white people's birth rate is the lowest of all.

[GoldenArm9]

even i think abortion should still legal, imagine how our pathetic birth rates would sky rocket if it wasn't.

in 100 years when we are SEVERELY out numbered this will be important.
But how many of these unborn babies maybe if left to live could be the minds that cure cancer,AIDS , end world hunger ,ect.ect.?

[Ericw712]

explain please
Well.... when a man and a woman love eachother very much, or when alcohol lowers inhibitions making "love" less important...

Its all right here

http://dl.nlb.gov.sg/ask/8.2.jpg

[Ericw712]

But how many of these unborn babies maybe if left to live could be the minds that cure cancer,AIDS , end world hunger ,ect.ect.?

Or to be competent politicians, right Jamie :thumbsup:

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

But how many of these unborn babies maybe if left to live could be the minds that cure cancer,AIDS , end world hunger ,ect.ect.?

hey man i agree, its not the poor getting abortions, but the rich who actually could afford children and education for them.

im not saying abortion should be illegal, but we should encourage those who can to have babies.

[GoldenArm9]

hey man i agree, its not the poor getting abortions, but the rich who actually could afford children and education for them.

im not saying abortion should be illegal, but we should encourage those who can to have babies.
Actually i think abortion should be banned ....adoption is the option ...

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Actually i think abortion should be banned ....adoption is the option ...

many many many women in america would rather have a nice body than a baby

its not till they are older that they change their mind.

[Danno]

What a pud. While I might find the display a bit extreme (much like how i have distaste for the TRUTH ads), they still had their rights. They even had a permit.

I guess this guy doesn't realize that OTHER people have rights too. Even if their opinions don't agree with yours.

Hopefully he gets to boot as a student senator.

[Jasonew6]

many many many women in america would rather have a nice body than a baby

its not till they are older that they change their mind.

And that should be reason enough to brutally murder an unborn child?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

And that should be reason enough to brutally murder an unborn child?

no but it should be enough reason to allow a woman to decide what happens to her body.

[CloeHokie]

That video was funny man! That guy was cracking me up. Lol. There was a cop there and he was not doing anything to stop it. The guy was obviously upset but everyone has thier right to an opinion. I will not try and put myself in a young females position. I can imagine how it could destroy her own life if she chose to have the baby in some cases. So they must decide between thier life and the childs. A hard choice to make for any woman. Leave it up to them and let God decide who is right in the end.

[jamiethelanky]

Or to be competent politicians, right Jamie :thumbsup:
I doubt it will ever happen...

[Patrick D from 83]

I expected a bit more spine than that from the Pro-lifers. I hope there was a more heated argument off camera instead of just them following him around pulling signs out after the cop left.

Guy was an idiot. If you disagree with them, don't vandalize their cause's materials, petition to have a rally/display of your own. A 4000 fetus jar display (Ok maybe a bit extreme, but whatever pro choice supporters do for shock value like the 4000 crosses)

I've give the guy this though, he looked to have a good flow knockin those down, he mowed right through em with his 2 handed straight forward pattern.

[Ericw712]

I doubt it will ever happen...
Well especially not if they're all being aborted <_<

[jamiethelanky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1I4M4FqpcY

"She could have been a poet or she could've been a fool,
You did a bad thing."

[barryllium]

This is just one instance and who knows how many more women who had abortions feel the same way as she does/did ...this just proves what effects abortion has on women who have them ...and yes they could go get help by a mental health specialist but the question why be subjugated to that ...?

While I agree that some women are affected this way, not all women are - so this doesn't really prove that. The experience of one woman does not mean all women experience that. I agree that this is an issue, but it should be a cause for more counseling before and after abortion. And I'm saying this as someone that is essentially pro-life.

[barryllium]

pretty simple

our enemies birth rates are several times higher than our own.

i dont want to get into a racial thing, but white people's birth rate is the lowest of all.

Stop. You are making it a racial thing. You do this in every thread. Just stop.

I have no problem with many of your posts on here, but you continue to attempt to spread fear using your discriminating viewpoints. Stop. I will be reporting this post.

[GoldenArm9]

I expected a bit more spine than that from the Pro-lifers. I hope there was a more heated argument off camera instead of just them following him around pulling signs out after the cop left.

Guy was an idiot. If you disagree with them, don't vandalize their cause's materials, petition to have a rally/display of your own. A 4000 fetus jar display (Ok maybe a bit extreme, but whatever pro choice supporters do for shock value like the 4000 crosses)

I've give the guy this though, he looked to have a good flow knockin those down, he mowed right through em with his 2 handed straight forward pattern.
See Patrick that's the problem if a Pro-Life Student would have stuck up for the display then he would have been given a label and then that would have given somebody the chance to make the Pro-Life cause look like It's radical.They did the right thing and sat back and let things take it course so the truth could really be shown.

[barryllium]

See Patrick that's the problem if a Pro-Life Student would have stuck up for the display then he would have been given a label and then that would have given somebody the chance to make the Pro-Life cause look like It's radical.They did the right thing and sat back and let things take it course so the truth could really be shown.

What truth - that some people are disrespectful and stupid? The same could be said about a lot of people that believe a lot of things.

[CloeHokie]

I expected a bit more spine than that from the Pro-lifers. I hope there was a more heated argument off camera instead of just them following him around pulling signs out after the cop left.

Guy was an idiot. If you disagree with them, don't vandalize their cause's materials, petition to have a rally/display of your own. A 4000 fetus jar display (Ok maybe a bit extreme, but whatever pro choice supporters do for shock value like the 4000 crosses)

I've give the guy this though, he looked to have a good flow knockin those down, he mowed right through em with his 2 handed straight forward pattern.


Dude that guy was on it! He looked like he did that all the time! :lol:

[CloeHokie]

Stop. You are making it a racial thing. You do this in every thread. Just stop.

I have no problem with many of your posts on here, but you continue to attempt to spread fear using your discriminating viewpoints. Stop. I will be reporting this post.

Right On B man.

[GoldenArm9]

Stop. You are making it a racial thing. You do this in every thread. Just stop.

I have no problem with many of your posts on here, but you continue to attempt to spread fear using your discriminating viewpoints. Stop. I will be reporting this post.
See this poster has every right to speak his mind ....we still live in America and we still have the right to free speech ....

[barryllium]

See this poster has every right to speak his mind ....we still live in America and we still have the right to free speech ....

He may have the right to speak his mind, but he continually spreads hate and discrimination based on bias and misinformation. His actions continually violate the code of conduct of this site. So while he has the right to speak his mind, he does not have the right to do it in the way he has on this site.

[jamiethelanky]

See this poster has every right to speak his mind ....we still live in America and we still have the right to free speech ....
You do not have the right to belittle someone on racial grounds - including the particular religion followed by someone when you don't know a flying thing about how they follow it and who they are as a person. Labelling all Muslims as violent is unacceptable, and like Barry says, contrary to the CoC.

[GoldenArm9]

He may have the right to speak his mind, but he continually spreads hate and discrimination based on bias and misinformation. His actions continually violate the code of conduct of this site. So while he has the right to speak his mind, he does not have the right to do it in the way he has on this site.
So he has a Constitutional right to speak his mind because last time i checked the Constitution makes no provision for that and the Constitution trumps all laws concerning so called 'Hate Speech' ..no law like that has ever been ratified by the States ....i love how the law is manipulated by the few and nobody takes notice ...

[jamiethelanky]

So he has a Constitutional right to speak his mind because last time i checked the Constitution makes no provision for that and the Constitution trumps all laws concerning so called 'Hate Speech' ..no law like that has ever been ratified by the states ....
Though it should be.

[HearUsRoar]

What a pud. While I might find the display a bit extreme (much like how i have distaste for the TRUTH ads), they still had their rights. They even had a permit.

I guess this guy doesn't realize that OTHER people have rights too. Even if their opinions don't agree with yours.

Hopefully he gets to boot as a student senator.

I hate those Truth ads too.

Anyway, I agree with Danno and Eric, this guy is a joke. He stands on his self-made "hear-me, hear-me" pedastal all the while ignoring the fact that these people have the right to their opinion as well. If you don't like it, then get the school's approval to make your own display "senator".

What's good for the goose is good for the gander...unless the gander says other wise? I don't think so.

This guy doesn't deserve a second more of my time.

[GoldenArm9]

Though it should be.
It never will be ...Thank God ...

[jamiethelanky]

It never will be ...Thank God ...
Why would laws against hate crime be a bad thing?

[barryllium]

So he has a Constitutional right to speak his mind because last time i checked the Constitution makes no provision for that and the Constitution trumps all laws concerning so called 'Hate Speech' ..no law like that has ever been ratified by the States ....i love how the law is manipulated by the few and nobody takes notice ...

I'm in no way talking out against free speech or the Constitution here. In this chat room, the administrators have set forth rules in the code of conduct. Sloppy has been... um... sloppy... in his adherence to them. So, unless you believe he has not been in violation of the CoC, I don't see why this is even a discussion.

[HearUsRoar]

I'm in no way talking out against free speech or the Constitution here. In this chat room, the administrators have set forth rules in the code of conduct. Sloppy has been... um... sloppy... in his adherence to them. So, unless you believe he has not been in violation of the CoC, I don't see why this is even a discussion.

I agree. Free speech is free speech but that doesn't mean you can yell !FIRE! in a crowded movie theatre, it doesn't mean you can go to court and call the judge a jack... and it doesn't mean you can come to a Message Board and say things that violate the CoC.

I'm a Constitutionalist to the -nth degree but it's not his Constitutional right to say those things on this MB if the powers that be say it's not...and they have said that.

[barryllium]

I agree. Free speech is free speech but that doesn't mean you can yell !FIRE! in a crowded movie theatre, it doesn't mean you can go to court and call the judge a jack... and it doesn't mean you can come to a Message Board and say things that violate the CoC.

I'm a Constitutionalist to the -nth degree but it's not his Constitutional right to say those things on this MB if the powers that be say it's not...and they have said that.

And the truth shall set you free. Well said, HearUsRoar. Or, perhaps, well roared?!?

[pamar427]

many many many women in america would rather have a nice body than a baby

This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.
Are you saying woman are getting abortions, so that they don't have to gain baby weight.
Give me a freakin' break. :rolleyes:

As for poor not getting abortions, over 48% of woman who have abortions have a family income of less than $30000.00. This is a family income not an individuals income.

[Domata Dominance]

no but it should be enough reason to allow a woman to decide what happens to her body.

Her body? yes. The child's body? NO.

As a former fetus, I oppose abortion.

[VCU Rams]

Back to the topic at hand.......I personally feel the entire situation in general is a travesty. Extreme maybe? I personally don't think so. Roderick King IMO had a very valid argument (against the display) as I think the school had absolutely no business approving such a display. Seriously what did they expect to happen, that is the exact reason the "pro life club" wanted that display put up. Did UW really think people would look at such a heinous display as was put up and simply dismiss it?

Instead of putting up fake tombstones (come on that was the purpose of the crosses) basically making any one who chooses to get an abortion look like a murderer....They should have simply talked to people, word of mouth does have power, and that way those who would be offended wouldn't be forced to be patronized with such garbage.

Its a shame King handled it the way he did, all he accomplished was looking stupid and becoming a punchline as I'm sure he will. Instead he should have voiced his concerns with the University and brought in classmates who were offended by the display as I'm sure many were, to tell the school their side of the issue. I guarantee you it would have been taken down, if just one student was greatly offended by the heinous display.

Everyone involved in this is in the wrong, all the way down to the cop who allowed the vandalism to continue.

[HearUsRoar]

This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.
Are you saying woman are getting abortions, so that they don't have to gain baby weight.
Give me a freakin' break. :rolleyes:

As for poor not getting abortions, over 48% of woman who have abortions have a family income of less than $30000.00. This is a family income not an individuals income.

I agree that sloppy made a ridiculous statement.

As for the "poor" comment though, wouldn't a healthier alternative be giving the baby up for adoption? That's what my birth mother did almost 29 years ago. I think she made the right decision.

[HearUsRoar]

Back to the topic at hand.......I personally feel the entire situation in general is a travesty. Extreme maybe? I personally don't think so. Roderick King IMO had a very valid argument (against the display) as I think the school had absolutely no business approving such a display. Seriously what did they expect to happen, that is the exact reason the "pro life club" wanted that display put up. Did UW really think people would look at such a heinous display as was put up and simply dismiss it?

Instead of putting up fake tombstones (come on that was the purpose of the crosses) basically making any one who chooses to get an abortion look like a murderer....They should have simply talked to people, word of mouth does have power, and that way those who would be offended wouldn't be forced to be patronized with such garbage.

Its a shame King handled it the way he did, all he accomplished was looking stupid and becoming a punchline as I'm sure he will. Instead he should have voiced his concerns with the University and brought in classmates who were offended by the display as I'm sure many were, to tell the school their side of the issue. I guarantee you it would have been taken down, if just one student was greatly offended by the heinous display.

Everyone involved in this is in the wrong, all the way down to the cop who allowed the vandalism to continue.

Why do we allow one person who might be "offended" to continue to mandate what is and isn't allowed?

They got permission, it was their right, anyone who opposed could have done something combatting it right next to it.

[VCU Rams]

Why do we allow one person who might be "offended" to continue to mandate what is and isn't allowed?

They got permission, it was their right, anyone who opposed could have done something combatting it right next to it.

If this was private property I would agree.....but this is public land. Everyone has to walk by it and look at it every day. I don't feel the people that put up the display were in the wrong, even though I detest their "display".....The university I feel was wrong and shortsighted in allowing this to even be an issue.

And maybe the females who chose to get an abortion who were offended by the display were too ashamed to put up a display next to it. Would you really want to publicly promote yourself as someone who got an abortion next to a display essentially calling you a murderer?

[HearUsRoar]

If this was private property I would agree.....but this is public land. Everyone has to walk by it and look at it every day. I don't feel the people that put up the display were in the wrong, even though I detest their "display".....The university I feel was wrong and shortsighted in allowing this to even be an issue.

And maybe the females who chose to get an abortion who were offended by the display were too ashamed to put up a display next to it. Would you really want to publicly promote yourself as someone who got an abortion next to a display essentially calling you a murderer?

No I wouldn't. But I don't think the opposing display would be women promoting themselves as someone who has had an abortion either. If anything it would be their viewpoint trying to prove they weren't murderers.

[GoldenArm9]

I agree. Free speech is free speech but that doesn't mean you can yell !FIRE! in a crowded movie theatre, it doesn't mean you can go to court and call the judge a jack... and it doesn't mean you can come to a Message Board and say things that violate the CoC.

I'm a Constitutionalist to the -nth degree but it's not his Constitutional right to say those things on this MB if the powers that be say it's not...and they have said that.
It isn't about yelling 'Fire' in a crowed theater besides when has a person actually done that? .....It's about how the Constitution is being totally ignored ..and it really wasn't even about sloppy and his comments ...it's about the fact that we have become a nation that seems to cow down to any group of people who do not like what we have to say ..

[VCU Rams]

No I wouldn't. But I don't think the opposing display would be women promoting themselves as someone who has had an abortion either. If anything it would be their viewpoint trying to prove they weren't murderers.

But that's my whole problem with the situation HUR, they shouldn't be forced to prove they are not murderers.

If this "pro life club" is so against abortion as they obviously are, they should not be attacking the individuals who chose to legally get an abortion and rather go to their state congress and voice their problems with the gov't allowing abortion to be legal.

Did this display help their cause in the slightest? no, all they accomplished was making people feel horrible about themselves.

[GoldenArm9]

If this was private property I would agree.....but this is public land. Everyone has to walk by it and look at it every day. I don't feel the people that put up the display were in the wrong, even though I detest their "display".....The university I feel was wrong and shortsighted in allowing this to even be an issue.

And maybe the females who chose to get an abortion who were offended by the display were too ashamed to put up a display next to it. Would you really want to publicly promote yourself as someone who got an abortion next to a display essentially calling you a murderer?
Why is abortion even allowed .?.what if the parents of such people like ..Bill Gates and Dr.Steven Hawking ...Jessica Simpson..Jimi Hendrix decided to have abortions? Look at all the talent ..brilliance ..and beauty that would have been lost ...

[VCU Rams]

Why is abortion even allowed .?.what if the parents of such people like ..Bill Gates and Dr.Steven Hawking ...Jessica Simpson..Jimi Hendrix decided to have abortions? Look at all the talent ..brilliance ..and beauty that would have been lost ...

See my preceding post.......BTW I am pro choice, but only in certain extreme scenarios....that is not what I am debating GA9.

EDIT: I've gotta go....hopefully we can continue this debate tomorrow :thumbsup:

[HearUsRoar]

It isn't about yelling 'Fire' in a crowed theater besides when has a person actually done that? .....It's about how the Constitution is being totally ignored ..and it really wasn't even about sloppy and his comments ...it's about the fact that we have become a nation that seems to cow down to any group of people who do not like what we have to say ..

Actually, it's entirely about yelling fire in a crowded theatre. I'm drawing comparisons to someone "speaking" who does not have the Constitutional right to do so.

As far as a nation that kowtows to any group of people who do not like what we have to say, I partially agree.

[barryllium]

Why is abortion even allowed .?.what if the parents of such people like ..Bill Gates and Dr.Steven Hawking ...Jessica Simpson..Jimi Hendrix decided to have abortions? Look at all the talent ..brilliance ..and beauty that would have been lost ...

Hmmm... Bill Gates... hmmmm... :hmm:

[HearUsRoar]

But that's my whole problem with the situation HUR, they shouldn't be forced to prove they are not murderers.

If this "pro life club" is so against abortion as they obviously are, they should not be attacking the individuals who chose to legally get an abortion and rather go to their state congress and voice their problems with the gov't allowing abortion to be legal.

Did this display help their cause in the slightest? no, all they accomplished was making people feel horrible about themselves.

No one was being attacked though. Crosses were being placed as a representative for lives lost.

Did the display help their cause in the slightest? That's neither for me or you to decide because we have no idea. What if a girl who was on the fence saw that display and it was the hair that broke the camel's back? I'm probably reaching there but you get my point.

And if people feel horrible about themselves one needs to seriously and honestly question whether the right thing was done. If they reflect and they still feel the right thing was done, they wouldn't feel horrible. If they refelect and do feel horrible, then perhaps that's the first step down the long road to changing their stance, in which case I'd say the display did help the pro-lifer's cause, if even in the slightest.

[Patrick D from 83]

Why is abortion even allowed .?.what if the parents of such people like ..Bill Gates and Dr.Steven Hawking ...Jessica Simpson..Jimi Hendrix decided to have abortions? Look at all the talent ..brilliance ..and beauty that would have been lost ...

Wait a minute? There was a possibility there could have been no Newlyweds, Romo/Simpson tabloid stories, and any chance of Ashlee Simpson becoming famous??? Dang you Jessica Simpsons mom!!!:angry:


We could flip that around though. What if the parents of people like...Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer...Timoth McVeigh...Marshall Applewhite decided to have abortions. Look at all the murder and destruction...ruined lives and other tragedies that could have been averted.

[GoldenArm9]

Wait a minute? There was a possibility there could have been no Newlyweds, Romo/Simpson tabloid stories, and any chance of Ashlee Simpson becoming famous??? Dang you Jessica Simpsons mom!!!:angry:


We could flip that around though. What if the parents of people like...Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer...Timoth McVeigh...Marshall Applewhite decided to have abortions. Look at all the murder and destruction...ruined lives and other tragedies that could have been averted.
There parents had no idea they were going to grow up and be what they became ...

[Patrick D from 83]

There parents had no idea they were going to grow up and be what they became ...


That's my point about the brilliant minds you brought up, the parents had no idea so its not really something I find relevant to the argument. At least you didn't say Jesus.:thumbsup: I've seen "What if Jesus was aborted" shirts up at school and well, think they're ridiculous. I went up and asked one of them once: "What if Pol Pot was aborted?" They had no reply, just were stunned I came up to them and said it. Well either that or they had no idea who Pol Pot was...I'm leaning towards option 2.

[jamiethelanky]

It isn't about yelling 'Fire' in a crowed theater besides when has a person actually done that? .....It's about how the Constitution is being totally ignored ..and it really wasn't even about sloppy and his comments ...it's about the fact that we have become a nation that seems to cow down to any group of people who do not like what we have to say ..
Actually, it's about the fact that you cannot tar somebody wit a brush of crimes and wrongs that they haven't done because of something they don't control or have nothing to do with.

[Ericw712]

Stop. You are making it a racial thing. You do this in every thread. Just stop.

I have no problem with many of your posts on here, but you continue to attempt to spread fear using your discriminating viewpoints. Stop. I will be reporting this post.

Just to make things clear. lombardi's statement in question, while extremely ignorant is not bigoted, hateful or racially offensive. Let's grow some thicker skin in here, that's the reason we created this separate forum. Just like Smack talk, you know what you're getting into when you come into this forum. In this case a blanket statement was made, but come on people

[GoldenArm9]

Just to make things clear. lombardi's statement in question, while extremely ignorant is not bigoted, hateful or racially offensive. Let's grow some thicker skin in here, that's the reason we created this separate forum. Just like Smack talk, you know what you're getting into when you come into this forum. In this case a blanket statement was made, but come on people
Thank you Eric ...:Clap:

[kevin28_1962]

If this was private property I would agree.....but this is public land. Everyone has to walk by it and look at it every day. I don't feel the people that put up the display were in the wrong, even though I detest their "display".....The university I feel was wrong and shortsighted in allowing this to even be an issue.

So you're basically saying that the university should be censoring what can or cannot be done on public land. What happened to freedom of speech? Would it have been ok with you had it been a pro-choice display?

But that's my whole problem with the situation HUR, they shouldn't be forced to prove they are not murderers.

call a spade a spade, a club a club....Life begins at inception, abortion is ending that life.

Did this display help their cause in the slightest? no, all they accomplished was making people feel horrible about themselves.

I'm pretty sure that if there were females who had an abortion came upon that display it wouldn't be the display itself that made them feel horrible about themselves. Abortions have a life lasting affect of these women. I feel sorry for them that they got into the situation. I think the purpose of the display is not to make those who already had an abortion feel bad but to make anyone who may find themselves in that situation to really think about the ramifications of an abortion and hopefully preventing the ending of more lives.

[jamiethelanky]

So you're basically saying that the university should be censoring what can or cannot be done on public land. What happened to freedom of speech? Would it have been ok with you had it been a pro-choice display?



call a spade a spade, a club a club....Life begins at inception, abortion is ending that life.



I'm pretty sure that if there were females who had an abortion came upon that display it wouldn't be the display itself that made them feel horrible about themselves. Abortions have a life lasting affect of these women. I feel sorry for them that they got into the situation. I think the purpose of the display is not to make those who already had an abortion feel bad but to make anyone who may find themselves in that situation to really think about the ramifications of an abortion and hopefully preventing the ending of more lives.
How about instead of doing that, advertising the alternatives like adoption or like contraception.

[barryllium]

Just to make things clear. lombardi's statement in question, while extremely ignorant is not bigoted, hateful or racially offensive. Let's grow some thicker skin in here, that's the reason we created this separate forum. Just like Smack talk, you know what you're getting into when you come into this forum. In this case a blanket statement was made, but come on people

While one could argue I overacted to the literal words of that post, we have all seen where he was headed with his argument, and I was attempting to nip it in the bud. While I respect your stance and ruling on his post, I don't think I'm the only one that is growing more than tired of - and offended by - his antics. Oh well - as I said, I respect the stance of the administration on this.

[philhos]

How about instead of doing that, advertising the alternatives like adoption or like contraception.

And many pro-choicers would be against that.

One of the greatest pro-life "protests" I have ever heard was from a group that would go to a clinic that routinely advocated abortions. They would stand outside and would try to get people's attention. They didn't block the entrances; they didn't get into anyone's face. They just let it know that they were there.

What they did was to list EVERY option a pregnant woman had. They would list everything that could be done, abortion, adoption, raising a child, etc. They would have pamphlets and resources to show where help for anything could be gotten (i.e. WIC, child care expense assistances, adoption resources, etc.).

This was very effective as many woman were turned off abortion because they thought their choices were simply abort or raise the child with no help.

Of course, many pro-choicers had an issue with THIS even (and if you think about it, that wouldn't make them pro choice would it) and fought to stop it. Last I heard, since they didn't block anything, didn't get into anyone's face, and had necessary permissions, they were allowed to stay.

[Ericw712]

How about instead of doing that, advertising the alternatives like adoption or like contraception.


How about advocating personal responsibility? In most cases pregnancy results from a conscious choice to have sex (note: I said most), most births result from sexual intercourse (minus test-tube babies and Jesus).

I'm not going down the abstinence road here, but if you make that choice to have intercourse for pleasure, be ready to accept the natural, intended result of pro-creation.

No one is out there demanding rights for drunk drivers. No one drinks with the intention of killing someone with thier vehicle. So they shouldn't have to be responsible for the natural reaction (physical imparement, lowered inhibitions) to alcohol, right?

[barryllium]

And many pro-choicers would be against that.

One of the greatest pro-life "protests" I have ever heard was from a group that would go to a clinic that routinely advocated abortions. They would stand outside and would try to get people's attention. They didn't block the entrances; they didn't get into anyone's face. They just let it know that they were there.

What they did was to list EVERY option a pregnant woman had. They would list everything that could be done, abortion, adoption, raising a child, etc. They would have pamphlets and resources to show where help for anything could be gotten (i.e. WIC, child care expense assistances, adoption resources, etc.).

This was very effective as many woman were turned off abortion because they thought their choices were simply abort or raise the child with no help.

Of course, many pro-choicers had an issue with THIS even (and if you think about it, that wouldn't make them pro choice would it) and fought to stop it. Last I heard, since they didn't block anything, didn't get into anyone's face, and had necessary permissions, they were allowed to stay.

You list some great examples covering the gamut here. I agree that this was a great "protest" on the part of pro-lifers - always better to provide information than to bomb a clinic, in my mind (not saying the majority of pro-lifers do this or anything, but a select few seem to think it's a good idea...). On the other hand, you have the extreme pro-choicers that won't even let information be disseminated - doing just as much harm (but in a different way) as the extreme pro-lifers. If only everyone were intelligent enough and secure enough to just meet in the damn middle.

[barryllium]

How about advocating personal responsibility? In most cases pregnancy results from a conscious choice to have sex (note: I said most), most births result from sexual intercourse (minus test-tube babies and Jesus).

I'm not going down the abstinence road here, but if you make that choice to have intercourse for pleasure, be ready to accept the natural, intended result of pro-creation.

No one is out there demanding rights for drunk drivers. No one drinks with the intention of killing someone with thier vehicle. So they shouldn't have to be responsible for the natural reaction (physical imparement, lowered inhibitions) to alcohol, right?

I can hop on this bandwagon, Eric. Way too many people take sex too lightly, in the sense that they do not think of all the repercussions and responsibilities of their actions. I consider myself somewhere in the middle on the abortion issue, with a fair lean towards pro-choice (I see legitimate reasons for abortions in a few different situations - but I also recognize this is just my opinion). With that said, though, I can't help but feel that people who are not open to the possibility of reproduction when having sex are being selfish and irresponsible.

[philhos]

You list some great examples covering the gamut here. I agree that this was a great "protest" on the part of pro-lifers - always better to provide information than to bomb a clinic, in my mind (not saying the majority of pro-lifers do this or anything, but a select few seem to think it's a good idea...). On the other hand, you have the extreme pro-choicers that won't even let information be disseminated - doing just as much harm (but in a different way) as the extreme pro-lifers. If only everyone were intelligent enough and secure enough to just meet in the damn middle.

I find it interesting that someone would call themselves "pro life" but think it's a good idea to bomb a clinic or worse kill abortion doctors.

I also find it interesting that someone would all themselves "pro choice" but hate it when someone CHOOSES something other than abortion or even thinks its a good idea to present all CHOICES to a pregnant woman.

[barryllium]

I find it interesting that someone would call themselves "pro life" but think it's a good idea to bomb a clinic or worse kill abortion doctors.

I also find it interesting that someone would all themselves "pro choice" but hate it when someone CHOOSES something other than abortion or even thinks its a good idea to present all CHOICES to a pregnant woman.

I totally agree. Some people are too closed-and-simple-minded to see the forest for the trees. Isn't it amazing how being somewhere in the middle almost always works better than consistently going to extremes?

[jmccracky]

Just to make things clear. lombardi's statement in question, while extremely ignorant is not bigoted, hateful or racially offensive. Let's grow some thicker skin in here, that's the reason we created this separate forum. Just like Smack talk, you know what you're getting into when you come into this forum. In this case a blanket statement was made, but come on people

You're right, but have you read ALL of Lombardi's posts? I have the thickest skin you or anybody will ever see, but please be on our side a little when he steps over the line. So, when he makes a statement that might be ignorant, and we respond, it might be out of frustration from his previous posts. Having said that, I think Lombardi is a VERY smart guy/girl, and have no problem with any of his posts. :thumbsup:

[Danno]

Why is abortion even allowed .?.what if the parents of such people like ..Bill Gates and Dr.Steven Hawking ...Jessica Simpson..Jimi Hendrix decided to have abortions? Look at all the talent ..brilliance ..and beauty that would have been lost ...


It would be Apple Windows! Hurray!

Jessica Simpson? Well, then I wouldn't have to hear on the idiotic news, every stupid thing she does. If anything, can we about the media? Just in general? Seriously...

[jmccracky]

How about advocating personal responsibility? In most cases pregnancy results from a conscious choice to have sex (note: I said most), most births result from sexual intercourse (minus test-tube babies and Jesus).

I'm not going down the abstinence road here, but if you make that choice to have intercourse for pleasure, be ready to accept the natural, intended result of pro-creation.

No one is out there demanding rights for drunk drivers. No one drinks with the intention of killing someone with thier vehicle. So they shouldn't have to be responsible for the natural reaction (physical imparement, lowered inhibitions) to alcohol, right?

You AND Jamie are right, in a sense. Now, take what Jamie says, and attach the word AIDS to it. Without education of condoms' help in preventing AIDS, we would be in the same or similar state as Africa. Personal responsibility is USING a condom. And if that condom breaks, personal responsibility steps in....again.

I know that you're not preaching abstinence, but I will add that abstinence will NEVER happen. When people are ready for sex, they are READY! :excited:

[CloeHokie]

You AND Jamie are right, in a sense. Now, take what Jamie says, and attach the word AIDS to it. Without education of condoms' help in preventing AIDS, we would be in the same or similar state as Africa. Personal responsibility is USING a condom. And if that condom breaks, personal responsibility steps in....again.

I know that you're not preaching abstinence, but I will add that abstinence will NEVER happen. When people are ready for sex, they are READY! :excited:


I am! Send me some hot women STAT! :rotf:

[CloeHokie]

It would be Apple Windows! Hurray!

Jessica Simpson? Well, then I wouldn't have to hear on the idiotic news, every stupid thing she does. If anything, can we about the media? Just in general? Seriously...

Agree, so tired of the E channel. Why does every woman in the country care about what every celeb is doing? Ugh

[barryllium]

It would be Apple Windows! Hurray!

Jessica Simpson? Well, then I wouldn't have to hear on the idiotic news, every stupid thing she does. If anything, can we about the media? Just in general? Seriously...

No, it'd just be Mac OS, still. Microsoft has been stealing from Apple (and before that, Xerox) for years. Look at the next version of Windows in development (Windows 2009 or whatever they are calling it), they are taking the Dock from Apple now as well.

[philhos]

No, it'd just be Mac OS, still. Microsoft has been stealing from Apple (and before that, Xerox) for years. Look at the next version of Windows in development (Windows 2009 or whatever they are calling it), they are taking the Dock from Apple now as well.

It's not stealing. It's taking a product and putting out a competing product.

If it weren't for this kind of "stealing," we'd all be driving the same kind of cars, eating the same bread, drinking the same drinks, etc.

As long as Microsoft didn't literally steal the plans, then they have every right to try to put out a better product. I'm all for competition.

[Ericw712]

It's not stealing. It's taking a product and putting out a competing product.

If it weren't for this kind of "stealing," we'd all be driving the same kind of cars, eating the same bread, drinking the same drinks, etc.

As long as Microsoft didn't literally steal the plans, then they have every right to try to put out a better product. I'm all for competition.

Free Market Capitalist <_<




;)

[barryllium]

It's not stealing. It's taking a product and putting out a competing product.

If it weren't for this kind of "stealing," we'd all be driving the same kind of cars, eating the same bread, drinking the same drinks, etc.

As long as Microsoft didn't literally steal the plans, then they have every right to try to put out a better product. I'm all for competition.

I didn't mean stealing as in doing anything illegal. In the end, while I don't argue that Microsoft has not been innovative at all - the desktop OS just has not been the source of their innovation, that's all. Office suites, networking, and servers, yes. The desktop OS, no.

[VCU Rams]

So you're basically saying that the university should be censoring what can or cannot be done on public land. What happened to freedom of speech? Would it have been ok with you had it been a pro-choice display?

Because there are instances where offensive relics should not be put on public land. This is not a freedom of speech issue, well I guess maybe, but yes the university has every right to tell a student they cannot put up an offensive display. I was trying to think of a good analogy, but alas I've got nothing.

And no I would absolutely not be ok had a "pro-choice display" been in the same type of attacking vein. Like showing photos of each kid suffering from lack of nourishment because someone unfit to raise a child chose to keep the child. So no I would not be ok with a display in that vein either.

call a spade a spade, a club a club....Life begins at inception, abortion is ending that life.

I am not arguing that fact, and as I said earlier I am not arguing for or against abortion here.....for some reason everyone thinks I have some hidden agenda.

I'm pretty sure that if there were females who had an abortion came upon that display it wouldn't be the display itself that made them feel horrible about themselves. Abortions have a life lasting affect of these women. I feel sorry for them that they got into the situation. I think the purpose of the display is not to make those who already had an abortion feel bad but to make anyone who may find themselves in that situation to really think about the ramifications of an abortion and hopefully preventing the ending of more lives.

Again though, I'm sure the people getting the abortion are already aware of the ramifications of making such a choice. I am just against forcing someone to look at a reminder of that IMO "extreme" choice they came to. What's done is done as far as someone getting the abortion done, why make them feel worse.

I sincerely doubt the display would have that type of an affect, but as HUR said, I have no way of proving that. I mean typically someone doesn't simply get an abortion because they don't want a kid. Its because of the pressures of the outside world, i.e. family and in this instance the fear of being seen pregnant is so great that they will get the abortion no matter how many tombstones they are forced to look at. Again simply IMO. I am against these types of abortions BTW.

And how about the instances of someone getting an abortion due to being raped.....do you also look at those individuals as murderers, I know this is an extreme example and really a low percentage of abortions.....but that is the only reason I am psuedo pro-choice.

[Ericw712]

And how about the instances of someone getting an abortion due to being raped.....do you also look at those individuals as murderers, I know this is an extreme example and really a low percentage of abortions.....but that is the only reason I am psuedo pro-choice.
Not to stir the pot here but sice when does 2 wrongs make a right?

[VCU Rams]

Not to stir the pot here but sice when does 2 wrongs make a right?

It doesn't, but someone that went through the terrible experience such as rape should have the right to opt out of going through the pains of childbirth if that is how they feel. IMO

[Ericw712]

It doesn't, but someone that went through the terrible experience such as rape should have the right to opt out of going through the pains of childbirth if that is how they feel. IMO

Just some info that helped me through the same issue:

Pregnancy due to rape is extremely rare, and with proper treatment can be prevented.
Only about 1 percent of all abortios are due to rape, studies show that pregnancies due to rape are much rarer than is generally thought, perhaps as few as one in a thousand cases. Furthermore, since conception doesn't occur immediately after intercourse, pregnancy can be prevented in the great majority of rape cases by medical treatment.

Rape is never the fault of the child; the guilty party, not an innocent party, should be punished. In those rare cases when a pregnancy is the result of rape, we must be careful who gets the blame. What is hard about this hard case is not whether an innocent child deserves to die for what his father did. What is hard is that an innocent woman has to take on childbearing and possibly mothering—if she decides to keep the child rather than choose adoption—for which she was not willing or ready. This is a very hard situation, but the fact remains that none of this is the fault of the child.
Why should Person A be killed because Person B raped Person A's mother? If your father committed a crime, should you go to jail for it? If you found out today that your biological father had raped your mother, would you feel you no longer had a right to live?

The violence of abortion parallels the violence of rape. When a woman exercises her right to control her own body in total disregard of the body of another human being, it is called abortion. When a man acts out the same philosophy, it is called rape.

There is a close parallel between the violent attack on an innocent woman that happens in a rape, and the violent attack on an innocent child that happens in an abortion. Both are done in response to a subjective and misguided sense of need, and both are done at the expense of an innocent person. The woman may not hate her child the way the rapist may hate his victim, but this is no consolation to the child. Regardless of the motives or disposition of his mother, he is just as brutally killed. The violence of abortion is no solution to the violence of rape. The killing of the innocent by abortion is no solution to the hurting of the innocent by rape.

Abortion does not bring healing to a rape victim. Imposing capital punishment on the innocent child of a sex offender does nothing bad to the rapist and nothing good for the woman. Creating a second victim doesn't undo the damage to the first. Alan Keyes once spoke of the pain of rape, then said, "But I don't believe it is right to take that pain and actually make it worse. And to the burden of that rape down through the years, if that abortion takes place, do you know what I'm adding if I let you have an abortion? I'm adding the burden of that abortion. And at some point, the truth of God that is written on your heart comes back to you. And you're wounded by that truth."

One feminist group says, "Some women have reported suffering from the trauma of abortion long after the rape trauma has faded." It is hard to imagine a worse therapy for a woman who has been raped than to add the guilt and turmoil of having her child killed. Even if we convince ourselves and her that it isn't a real child or even her child, some day she will realize it was. Those who advised abortion will not be there then to help carry her pain and guilt.
What about already-born people who are "products of rape"? What if you found that your spouse or adopted child was fathered by a rapist? Would it change your view of their worth? Would you love them any less? If not, why should we view the innocent unborn child any differently?

[Ericw712]

Also, there are plenty of women who cannot conceive on their own but can carry a baby to term, why not have that baby implanted into another woman who cannot conceive. Now the horrible experience of rape has been turned into a joy for another family and may help provide comfort for the victim knowing that she was a surrogate for a needy family.

[VCU Rams]

What about already-born people who are "products of rape"? What if you found that your spouse or adopted child was fathered by a rapist? Would it change your view of their worth? Would you love them any less? If not, why should we view the innocent unborn child any differently?

This was a very interesting article....but to answer your qustion, I would absolutely not think less of anyone born due to rape, but in the end, and I know this sounds awful....but if a child is aborted, nobody knew the child existed and therefore noone would miss the said child. Wow that sounds horrible in writing, but that is how I feel.

Honestly had I been aborted, I wouldn't have cared, because I would have never consciously knew I was aborted. And I am not naive enough to think the world would not be just fine without me had I never existed in the first place.

Yet again I think I am sounding horrible, but that is my opinion of this.

With all that said though, I have never done any research on the surrogate birth option, but if it is safe and there is a way to publicly fund such a procedure (sounds expensive) then I am all for banning abortion.

[Ericw712]

This was a very interesting article....but to answer your qustion, I would absolutely not think less of anyone born due to rape, but in the end, and I know this sounds awful....but if a child is aborted, nobody knew the child existed and therefore noone would miss the said child. Wow that sounds horrible in writing, but that is how I feel.

Honestly had I been aborted, I wouldn't have cared, because I would have never consciously knew I was aborted. And I am not naive enough to think the world would not be just fine without me had I never existed in the first place.

Yet again I think I am sounding horrible, but that is my opinion of this.

With all that said though, I have never done any research on the surrogate birth option, but if it is safe and there is a way to publicly fund such a procedure (sounds expensive) then I am all for banning abortion.

But going back to one of my very first posts in this thread, this is all about individual sides of the same issues.

On one hand Roe v. Wade is in place to protect a few women (statistically) who are victims of tragedy. At the same time it victimizes another small number of the population (aborted babies).

What's one of the biggest reasons for legalized abortions? To prevent back-alley coat hanger type incidents from happening. Say abortion was illegal, you saying that aborting an unborn child is ok because no one would miss the child is like saying of the few rape victims who actually conceive, few of those who would choose to have an illegal abortion even fewer would actually die from that gruesome procedure. By your example wouldn't the world still be fine without them? If we're going purely on numbers, fewer women would die as a result of outlawing abortion than unborn babies that die as a result of abortions. Is that fair?

Killing in any sense of the word is still killing. Whether it's an unnamed soldier of a terrorist organization, a mass murderer, an unborn child. The result is the same, their life is taken by another. Is anyone's life really more important than anyone else? Doesnt a child deserve the same chance at life that you and I already had.


Now to lighten the mood, I saw a baby wearing this shirt:
http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/a/0/0/5/b/AAAACszIfnsAAAAAAAWxEg.png

[Spark]

The solution to rape is not abortion. The solution to rape is stopping rape (http://www.pregnantpause.org/aborted/curerape.htm)

[CloeHokie]

This was a very interesting article....but to answer your qustion, I would absolutely not think less of anyone born due to rape, but in the end, and I know this sounds awful....but if a child is aborted, nobody knew the child existed and therefore noone would miss the said child. Wow that sounds horrible in writing, but that is how I feel.

Honestly had I been aborted, I wouldn't have cared, because I would have never consciously knew I was aborted. And I am not naive enough to think the world would not be just fine without me had I never existed in the first place.

Yet again I think I am sounding horrible, but that is my opinion of this.

With all that said though, I have never done any research on the surrogate birth option, but if it is safe and there is a way to publicly fund such a procedure (sounds expensive) then I am all for banning abortion.

I agree with ya VCU. Its sad that so many people get themselves into this by not wearing protection or staying away from sex till they are ready to have a baby but in this world what is a young woman to do when she makes a mistake or the condom doesnt work? She might not be able to go to college and it could destroy her life. As a man its easy to say "Well you shouldnt have had sex" or "you should have worn protection". I have had sex plenty of times without a condom. (I got lucky) I know its stupid, but in the heat of the moment you are not thinking right. Bottom line for me is I cant get pregnant so its hard for me to pass judgement on a young woman who has her whole life ahead of her. She has to make a choice I would never want to make.

[CloeHokie]

The solution to rape is not abortion. The solution to rape is stopping rape (http://www.pregnantpause.org/aborted/curerape.htm)


Uh ok. Let me know when Superman is real and can stop rape all over the planet.

[Ericw712]

The solution to rape is not abortion. The solution to rape is stopping rape (http://www.pregnantpause.org/aborted/curerape.htm)

An interesting quote from that link:



Debbie "N." wrote:
"I still feel that I probably couldn't have loved that child conceived of rape, but there are so many people who would have loved that baby dearly. The man who raped me took a few moments of my life, but I took that innocent baby's entire life."
Debbie's comment starkly shows the actual effect on the women who is aborted to "cure" rape: It shifts the focus from the violence the rapist committed against her, to the violence she committed against the baby. I would never dream of minimizing rape by saying that it only "took a few moments" of the woman's life -- clearly the fear, trauma, and sense of violation lasts much more than a few moments. But Debbie described her own rape that way, because she is now comparing what the rapist did to her, with what she did to this baby



and this

And so it seems that the psychological problem faced by a pregnant rape victim is not that this child will "remind" her of the rape. (Like if she wasn't pregnant, she would just forget about it.) Rather, it is that when her pregnancy becomes obvious, she will be forced to "confess" that she is guilty of being raped. (Similarly, the baby is blamed for being conceived by rape. He is not thought of as an innocent baby, but as a "product of rape" -- an ugly blot to be removed.)

[VCU Rams]

But going back to one of my very first posts in this thread, this is all about individual sides of the same issues.

On one hand Roe v. Wade is in place to protect a few women (statistically) who are victims of tragedy. At the same time it victimizes another small number of the population (aborted babies).

What's one of the biggest reasons for legalized abortions? To prevent back-alley coat hanger type incidents from happening. Say abortion was illegal, you saying that aborting an unborn child is ok because no one would miss the child is like saying of the few rape victims who actually conceive, few of those who would choose to have an illegal abortion even fewer would actually die from that gruesome procedure. By your example wouldn't the world still be fine without them? If we're going purely on numbers, fewer women would die as a result of outlawing abortion than unborn babies that die as a result of abortions. Is that fair?

Killing in any sense of the word is still killing. Whether it's an unnamed soldier of a terrorist organization, a mass murderer, an unborn child. The result is the same, their life is taken by another. Is anyone's life really more important than anyone else? Doesnt a child deserve the same chance at life that you and I already had.


Now to lighten the mood, I saw a baby wearing this shirt:
http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/a/0/0/5/b/AAAACszIfnsAAAAAAAWxEg.png

Yes you make a very valid argument, and I know I sound absolutely horrible, a few people on this board probably hate me now lol.

But I am actually arguing that everyone is equal, had I been aborted if I was conceived due to rape, would I feel bad about it? no because I would have never known life even existed. Heck I would have never had a conscious thought.

Yes, I am grateful that I got the opportunity to live my life, but the world would be just fine had I never existed.....nobody would have missed me, because they would have never know who I am today.

Ugh, I hate arguing abortion, and never intended to have such a debate when I posted in this thread.....

And yes the shirt is funny, but had the baby been aborted, he/she would have never been for or against abortion, because he/she would have never had a thought of any kind. Therefore IMO abortion is not murder.

[Spark]

Uh ok. Let me know when Superman is real and can stop rape all over the planet.
So then you think the solution to rape is abortion? Do you also think that killing a murderer brings the original victim back from the dead?

[Ericw712]

Yes you make a very valid argument, and I know I sound absolutely horrible, a few people on this board probably hate me now lol.

But I am actually arguing that everyone is equal, had I been aborted if I was conceived due to rape, would I feel bad about it? no because I would have never known life even existed. Heck I would have never had a conscious thought.

Yes, I am grateful that I got the opportunity to live my life, but the world would be just fine had I never existed.....nobody would have missed me, because they would have never know who I am today.

Ugh, I hate arguing abortion, and never intended to have such a debate when I posted in this thread.....

And yes the shirt is funny, but had the baby been aborted, he/she would have never been for or against abortion, because he/she would have never had a thought of any kind. Therefore IMO abortion is not murder.

So really if everyone is equal why not choose life? Does aborting the baby undo the rape?

[CloeHokie]

So then you think the solution to rape is abortion? Do you also think that killing a murderer brings the original victim back from the dead?

I didnt say that. You made a ridiculous claim. I called you out. Thats all.

[barryllium]

This was a very interesting article....but to answer your qustion, I would absolutely not think less of anyone born due to rape, but in the end, and I know this sounds awful....but if a child is aborted, nobody knew the child existed and therefore noone would miss the said child. Wow that sounds horrible in writing, but that is how I feel.

Honestly had I been aborted, I wouldn't have cared, because I would have never consciously knew I was aborted. And I am not naive enough to think the world would not be just fine without me had I never existed in the first place.

Yet again I think I am sounding horrible, but that is my opinion of this.

With all that said though, I have never done any research on the surrogate birth option, but if it is safe and there is a way to publicly fund such a procedure (sounds expensive) then I am all for banning abortion.

For me, rape is the area of abortion with the most gray area. I don't pretend to understand the feelings of someone who has been violated like that - while I'm pretty much pro-life (I'm guessing my views are very close to yours, VCU), I can understand the carrying of a child being a constant reminder of the violation and physical/emotional pain of rape. While I understand that the unborn child has nothing to do with the rape (and indeed is not the guilty party), I also realize that there is little to nothing in this world that is more violating and emotionally ravaging to a human being than being raped. So, while logically I know that having the child and giving him/her up for adoption is the ideal thing for the unborn child, I have a hard time faulting a rape victim for choosing abortion all the same. Recovering from a rape can take years - nine months is a short time in that recovery process, and would be the first nine, most painful and difficult months.

Another gray area for me is a child conceived by parents where one or both have AIDS, and all precautions (other than abstinence, obviously) were taken to avoid conception. The life expectancy for this baby (if the baby gets AIDS - which can be tested for in the womb) is no more than five years - and these are not a healthy or happy five years. I can see a reason to view abortion as humane in these cases.

Another area, one that isn't even in the gray area for me, is when the child is threatening the life of the mother, and it is too early for this baby to sustain life outside of the womb. I believe even the Catholic church fully supports abortion in this area, but only if abortion is not the first medical attempt - in other words, if necessary doctors can do what is needed to save the mother's life, but the life of the fetus must be attempted to be saved. In many cases, the chances of saving the baby's life is virtually 0% - and thus this procedure would be considered abortion many standards.

Here's another issue - what about teenage pregnancies where parents essentially "force" their children to get an abortion? I realize you cannot truly and legally force someone to do such, but there is a lot of pressure on some families for things like this to happen. From my own experience, my sister-in-law was impregnated at 16 by my wife's brother. Her family gave her two options - abortion, or move to Arizona with her cousins until she had the baby and then she could come back. While I understand a non-abortion option was given here, there is some serious control at play here. In the end, my wife and I, along with my wife's sister and her husband helped my wife's brother and his girlfriend fight for a minor marriage, and they were granted this and thus emancipated from their families (my mother-in-law sided against them along with my sister-in-law's family).

In the end, I realize that all of these situations comprise the vast minority of abortions. But, putting up a public display like this is indeed insensitive to any person that has been through them. Do I think the person should have reacted like he did to the display? No. Perhaps talking with those that put the display up and asking them to take it down for reasons such as these would have been the better route. And I wouldn't be for a pro-choice display of this sort, either. Any kind of "in-your-face" display, while I agree people have the right to show, is disrespectful to a certain population of people, a population that is disregarded when these displays are put up.

[Ericw712]

I didnt say that. You made a ridiculous claim. I called you out. Thats all.
What was rediculous about spark's statement?

[VCU Rams]

So then you think the solution to rape is abortion? Do you also think that killing a murderer brings the original victim back from the dead?

I think he's saying there is no solution to rape......and you insinuating that he is implying that abortion is the solution is rather bullish.

Abortion is a means to offer a rape victim who conceives, the ability to choose to avoid going through the pains of child birth. To have a child that was the result of an absolutely detestable act.

And no I am not insinuating that the child is any less a person, but the mother deserves the right to avoid having the child if she feels that way.

[barryllium]

But going back to one of my very first posts in this thread, this is all about individual sides of the same issues.

On one hand Roe v. Wade is in place to protect a few women (statistically) who are victims of tragedy. At the same time it victimizes another small number of the population (aborted babies).

What's one of the biggest reasons for legalized abortions? To prevent back-alley coat hanger type incidents from happening. Say abortion was illegal, you saying that aborting an unborn child is ok because no one would miss the child is like saying of the few rape victims who actually conceive, few of those who would choose to have an illegal abortion even fewer would actually die from that gruesome procedure. By your example wouldn't the world still be fine without them? If we're going purely on numbers, fewer women would die as a result of outlawing abortion than unborn babies that die as a result of abortions. Is that fair?

Killing in any sense of the word is still killing. Whether it's an unnamed soldier of a terrorist organization, a mass murderer, an unborn child. The result is the same, their life is taken by another. Is anyone's life really more important than anyone else? Doesnt a child deserve the same chance at life that you and I already had.

Now to lighten the mood, I saw a baby wearing this shirt:
http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/a/0/0/5/b/AAAACszIfnsAAAAAAAWxEg.png

You bring up an interesting side note here, Eric - and this is a reason that as long as abortion is legal I am a huge proponent of planned parenthood. Along with the fact that they are disseminating a great amount of information on pregnancy, contraception, and other areas, they help women obtain all the information they can when they choose an abortion. While abortion is legal, there is still a decent amount of unsafe methods and "clinics" out there - and at least planned parenthood is making it safer for the women that do choose this. After all, regardless of what you think of abortion, there is no reason for the mother to perish as well.

[CloeHokie]

For me, rape is the area of abortion with the most gray area. I don't pretend to understand the feelings of someone who has been violated like that - while I'm pretty much pro-life (I'm guessing my views are very close to yours, VCU), I can understand the carrying of a child being a constant reminder of the violation and physical/emotional pain of rape. While I understand that the unborn child has nothing to do with the rape (and indeed is not the guilty party), I also realize that there is little to nothing in this world that is more violating and emotionally ravaging to a human being than being raped. So, while logically I know that having the child and giving him/her up for adoption is the ideal thing for the unborn child, I have a hard time faulting a rape victim for choosing abortion all the same. Recovering from a rape can take years - nine months is a short time in that recovery process, and would be the first nine, most painful and difficult months.

Another gray area for me is a child conceived by parents where one or both have AIDS, and all precautions (other than abstinence, obviously) were taken to avoid conception. The life expectancy for this baby (if the baby gets AIDS - which can be tested for in the womb) is no more than five years - and these are not a healthy or happy five years. I can see a reason to view abortion as humane in these cases.

Another area, one that isn't even in the gray area for me, is when the child is threatening the life of the mother, and it is too early for this baby to sustain life outside of the womb. I believe even the Catholic church fully supports abortion in this area, but only if abortion is not the first medical attempt - in other words, if necessary doctors can do what is needed to save the mother's life, but the life of the fetus must be attempted to be saved. In many cases, the chances of saving the baby's life is virtually 0% - and thus this procedure would be considered abortion many standards.

Here's another issue - what about teenage pregnancies where parents essentially "force" their children to get an abortion? I realize you cannot truly and legally force someone to do such, but there is a lot of pressure on some families for things like this to happen. From my own experience, my sister-in-law was impregnated at 16 by my wife's brother. Her family gave her two options - abortion, or move to Arizona with her cousins until she had the baby and then she could come back. While I understand a non-abortion option was given here, there is some serious control at play here. In the end, my wife and I, along with my wife's sister and her husband helped my wife's brother and his girlfriend fight for a minor marriage, and they were granted this and thus emancipated from their families (my mother-in-law sided against them along with my sister-in-law's family).

In the end, I realize that all of these situations comprise the vast minority of abortions. But, putting up a public display like this is indeed insensitive to any person that has been through them. Do I think the person should have reacted like he did to the display? No. Perhaps talking with those that put the display up and asking them to take it down for reasons such as these would have been the better route. And I wouldn't be for a pro-choice display of this sort, either. Any kind of "in-your-face" display, while I agree people have the right to show, is disrespectful to a certain population of people, a population that is disregarded when these displays are put up.


Agree with everything here. Good points on everything. You should change your username to Barry the Wise.

[Spark]

I think he's saying there is no solution to rape......and you insinuating that he is implying that abortion is the solution is rather bullish.

So rape is inevitable?

I was saying that abortion doesn't stop the rape or provide a solution for it. The only thing that does is preventing rape and stopping rapists.



Abortion is a means to offer a rape victim who conceives, the ability to choose to avoid going through the pains of child birth. To have a child that was the result of an absolutely detestable act.

And no I am not insinuating that the child is any less a person, but the mother deserves the right to avoid having the child if she feels that way.

But does that provide a solution to the rape? Is that child the object of the rape? By removing it you effectively remove the rape?


I was just pointing out that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Just like aborting fetuses doesn't solve rape, stoping rapists does.

Don't go after the gun, go after the gunmen. (and then you can do what you like to their their "gun" if you know what I mean)

[CloeHokie]

What was rediculous about spark's statement?

Really? You cant stop every rape in the world. How is that conceivable? Thats why its ridiculous. Thats like saying the solution to crime is to stop it. People are going to break the law. There are violent people in this world and some are just not right in the head.

[CloeHokie]

I think he's saying there is no solution to rape......and you insinuating that he is implying that abortion is the solution is rather bullish.

Abortion is a means to offer a rape victim who conceives, the ability to choose to avoid going through the pains of child birth. To have a child that was the result of an absolutely detestable act.

And no I am not insinuating that the child is any less a person, but the mother deserves the right to avoid having the child if she feels that way.

Exactly

[barryllium]

Agree with everything here. Good points on everything. You should change your username to Barry the Wise.

Thank you, kind sir.

I seek the bravest and the finest knights in the land who will join me in my court at Camelot. You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?

[VCU Rams]

So rape is inevitable?

I was saying that abortion doesn't stop the rape or provide a solution for it. The only thing that does is preventing rape and stopping rapists.




But does that provide a solution to the rape? Is that child the object of the rape? By removing it you effectively remove the rape?


I was just pointing out that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Just like aborting fetuses doesn't solve rape, stoping rapists does.

Don't go after the gun, go after the gunmen. (and then you can do what you like to their their "gun" if you know what I mean)

Yes rape is inevitable as long as we live in a society with other people....There will always be rapists in our society. If there was a way to stop rape don't you think we would have implemented it by now. Just like theft, murder will always exist as long as we live in a society.

No abortion is not the "solution" to the rape. There is no solution, its a way to protect a victim from having a child she never even considered having and was not the result of any decision by the woman.

[Ericw712]

Really? You cant stop every rape in the world. How is that conceivable? Thats why its ridiculous. Thats like saying the solution to crime is to stop it. People are going to break the law. There are violent people in this world and some are just not right in the head.
Right, but I get what spark is saying. If someone steals something from your house and accidentally leaves behind an article of clothing (a hat lets say). Does destroying that hat undo the crime?

Rape is horrible and it will probably continue for a long time, possibly forever. But what is ridiculous is assuming that you can ever undo or solve that horrible moment by abortion. You can still choose to abort but it doesn't take the rape away.

Your over-reaction in this case is a little ridiculous

[CloeHokie]

Thank you, kind sir.

I seek the bravest and the finest knights in the land who will join me in my court at Camelot. You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?

Only if I can be Sir Robin because I like the singing and I might bravely run away!

http://www.pythonline.com/files/pythonline/images/Holy%20Grail%20Sir%20Robin_0.preview.jpg

[VCU Rams]

Right, but I get what spark is saying. If someone steals something from your house and accidentally leaves behind an article of clothing (a hat lets say). Does destroying that hat undo the crime?

Rape is horrible and it will probably continue for a long time, possibly forever. But what is ridiculous is assuming that you can ever undo or solve that horrible moment by abortion. You can still choose to abort but it doesn't take the rape away.



None of us are saying abortion is a solution to rape......its a means for a woman to minimize the horrible effects the rape had on her life. Yes at the expense of an unborn child, but as I have said, the woman deserves the right to make that decision for herself.

[barryllium]

Only if I can be Sir Robin because I like the singing and I might bravely run away!

http://www.pythonline.com/files/pythonline/images/Holy%20Grail%20Sir%20Robin_0.preview.jpg

Bravely bold Sir Robin rode forth from Camelot. He was not afraid to die, oh brave Sir Robin. He was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways, brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin. He was not in the least bit scared to be mashed into a pulp, or to have his eyes gouged out, and his elbows broken. To have his kneecaps split, and his body burned away, and his limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Sir Robin. His head smashed in and heart cut out, and his liver removed, and his bowels unplugged, and his nostrils raped and his bottom burned off and his *****...

[CloeHokie]

Right, but I get what spark is saying. If someone steals something from your house and accidentally leaves behind an article of clothing (a hat lets say). Does destroying that hat undo the crime?

Rape is horrible and it will probably continue for a long time, possibly forever. But what is ridiculous is assuming that you can ever undo or solve that horrible moment by abortion. You can still choose to abort but it doesn't take the rape away.

Your over-reaction in this case is a little ridiculous

To each his own. I see what he is getting at but he just made a statement. Again I did not say that abortion was the solution. I said that thinking you can stop every rape on the planet is ridiculous and it is.

Now as I said in another post I am not a woman an cant imagine what its like to go through this. I find it hard for me to pass judgement on this issue. My view is to let them decide and leave the judgement up to God.

[Spark]

Yes rape is inevitable as long as we live in a society with other people....There will always be rapists in our society. If there was a way to stop rape don't you think we would have implemented it by now. Just like theft, murder will always exist as long as we live in a society.

No abortion is not the "solution" to the rape. There is no solution, its a way to protect a victim from having a child she never even considered having and was not the result of any decision by the woman.

Might as well give up the fight then if there will never be a solution. Just wait for it to happen and then abort the babies.

And yes, the solution is to stop rape. My point in quoting that line was to point out that we need to stop thinking of abortion as working towards the solution to rape. Stopping rapists is the only way to stop rape. True, we may never stop all the rapists but does that make the obkective any less important?

[barryllium]

None of us are saying abortion is a solution to rape......its a means for a woman to minimize the horrible effects the rape had on her life. Yes at the expense of an unborn child, but as I have said, the woman deserves the right to make that decision for herself.

I second VCU in saying that abortion is not a solution to rape. I also continue to think that anyone who believes they can imagine what it is like for any one individual (as all their experiences differ to a degree) who has been raped is, for lack of a better phrase, kidding themselves. In no way do I find myself fit to judge what a victim or rape should or should not feel after this violation has occurred, nor judge what they do as a result of such.

Again, rape is the 100% gray area to me. I respect both sides of the argument here - and kudos to everyone here, this is an awesome discussion, everyone is bringing great arguments/points to the table.

[barryllium]

To each his own. I see what he is getting at but he just made a statement. Again I did not say that abortion was the solution. I said that thinking you can stop every rape on the planet is ridiculous and it is.

Now as I said in another post I am not a woman an cant imagine what its like to go through this. I find it hard for me to pass judgement on this issue. My view is to let them decide and leave the judgement up to God.

Agreed, and well said.

[Spark]

To each his own. I see what he is getting at but he just made a statement. Again I did not say that abortion was the solution. I said that thinking you can stop every rape on the planet is ridiculous and it is.

Now as I said in another post I am not a woman an cant imagine what its like to go through this. I find it hard for me to pass judgement on this issue. My view is to let them decide and leave the judgement up to God.
Actually I quoted a line from an article I was linking. But my bet is you didn't see beyond the shock-value of my statement

[VCU Rams]

And yes, the solution is to stop rape. My point in quoting that line was to point out that we need to stop thinking of abortion as working towards the solution to rape. Stopping rapists is the only way to stop rape.

I agree 100% here.

[barryllium]

Might as well give up the fight then if there will never be a solution. Just wait for it to happen and then abort the babies.

And yes, the solution is to stop rape. My point in quoting that line was to point out that we need to stop thinking of abortion as working towards the solution to rape. Stopping rapists is the only way to stop rape. True, we may never stop all the rapists but does that make the obkective any less important?

No one is saying that we shouldn't attempt to stop rape, either. At the same time, when a rape is not prevented (no one's fault but the rapist), to judge a woman in that situation denies her the right to be human.

[CloeHokie]

Actually I quoted a line from an article I was linking. But my bet is you didn't see beyond the shock-value of my statement

I know. I read it, and found it a good read. Thanks.

[CloeHokie]

No one is saying that we shouldn't attempt to stop rape, either. At the same time, when a rape is not prevented (no one's fault but the rapist), to judge a woman in that situation denies her the right to be human.

Exactly.

[CloeHokie]

Might as well give up the fight then if there will never be a solution. Just wait for it to happen and then abort the babies.

And yes, the solution is to stop rape. My point in quoting that line was to point out that we need to stop thinking of abortion as working towards the solution to rape. Stopping rapists is the only way to stop rape. True, we may never stop all the rapists but does that make the obkective any less important?

No way. I agree stopping rape is very important. I had a close friend of mine go through it. She did not get pregnant but it was still very hard on her and still is to this day. (6 years ago). She has never been the same since and I cant imagine what she has gone through. And its sad how messed up some people in this world are but they are out there.

[Spark]

No one is saying that we shouldn't attempt to stop rape, either. At the same time, when a rape is not prevented (no one's fault but the rapist), to judge a woman in that situation denies her the right to be human.
I didn't say anything about a judging a woman's choice, I am only saying that choice does not provide a solution to rape, nor does it prevent other rapes from happening. That is all. You can ban all the weapons you want but that won't stop people from killing. You can give all the social services in the world but that will not stop people from stealing. You can educate as many people on diversity but that does not prevent hate.

A choice for abortion is a woman's legal right, but it is not a solution to the problem.

[jamiethelanky]

I am only saying that choice does not provide a solution to rape,
I don't think anyone has suggested that it does...

[barryllium]

I didn't say anything about a judging a woman's choice, I am only saying that choice does not provide a solution to rape, nor does it prevent other rapes from happening. That is all. You can ban all the weapons you want but that won't stop people from killing. You can give all the social services in the world but that will not stop people from stealing. You can educate as many people on diversity but that does not prevent hate.

A choice for abortion is a woman's legal right, but it is not a solution to the problem.

My apologies if my statement seemed at all directed at you - it wasn't. I completely agree with what you have said here. As I said in another post or two, I agree that rape prevention is the key to rape - a solution that involves better information dissemination, better access to mental health treatment and support groups for people with issues of all kinds, better law enforcement, and (to a strong and sad degree) better parenting. That will help, but as I think we all agree, won't stop rape from ever occurring.

Beyond that, since abortion is a choice for these women, I have a hard time judging them one way or the other - something that (if I read you correctly), you agree with.

[CloeHokie]

I didn't say anything about a judging a woman's choice, I am only saying that choice does not provide a solution to rape, nor does it prevent other rapes from happening. That is all. You can ban all the weapons you want but that won't stop people from killing. You can give all the social services in the world but that will not stop people from stealing. You can educate as many people on diversity but that does not prevent hate.

A choice for abortion is a woman's legal right, but it is not a solution to the problem.

I dont think we are very far from the same page here. Glad everyone can keep a cool head. These issues can get touchy sometimes but I never let them get to me. Everyone has the right to think whatever they want about any issue. And I agree with everything said here.

[VCU Rams]

I dont think we are very far from the same page here. Glad everyone can keep a cool head. These issues can get touchy sometimes but I never let them get to me. Everyone has the right to think whatever they want about any issue. And I agree with everything said here.

Oh, but I have not kept a cool head, in fact this is me right now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0

[barryllium]

Oh, but I have not kept a cool head, in fact this is me right now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsom99Ds43U&feature=related

That, my friend, is friggin awesome!