creation museum

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

http://www.creationmuseum.org/

17 other countries graduate more scientists than the united states.

[TheBengals]

http://www.creationmuseum.org/

17 other countries graduate more scientists than the united states.

So, tell me again why you care that I believe in creationism?
And another thing, what does that have to do with the number of scientists the U.S. graduates?

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

So, tell me again why you care that I believe in creationism?
And another thing, what does that have to do with the number of scientists the U.S. graduates?

i dont care that you believe in creationism, i care that you teach it to kids.

math and science are not the focus of the educational system, and i think religion contributes to that.

how many young people going to this museum will have the attitude that science is wrong?

[TheBengals]

i dont care that you believe in creationism, i care that you teach it to kids.

math and science are not the focus of the educational system, and i think religion contributes to that.

how many young people going to this museum will have the attitude that science is wrong?

I don't think they will have the attitude that science is wrong. Evolution is a theory however, written by a man that was just as fallible as the ones you claim wrote the Bible. There may be some physical evidence to suggest that evolution could be true. But not all evidence must be physical, ie...faith; and the evidence of things hoped for through faith. If I honestly saw indisputable evidence that evolution was the means that we got here, I would believe it. That being said, I don't believe in evolution as the way we got here.
I think we should teach children what is out there and not according to an agenda.
Teach all the idea's so our children will have knowledge and let them decide what to believe.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I don't think they will have the attitude that science is wrong. Evolution is a theory however, written by a man that was just as fallible as the ones you claim wrote the Bible. There may be some physical evidence to suggest that evolution could be true.

some evidence?

try a small mountain.

[Jumbro]

i dont care that you believe in creationism, i care that you teach it to kids.

math and science are not the focus of the educational system, and i think religion contributes to that.

how many young people going to this museum will have the attitude that science is wrong?


Interesting...I also believe that many of those countries with higher number of scientists have a much more rigid study of music in their daily life. In fact, there is much evidence pointing to the fact that the longer a student participates in organized music programs in school 1) the higher the level of education they will receive 2) the higher level of pay they will receive and 3) the higher level of both that their offspring will achieve.

SO maybe we need to make sure there is music in EVERY school before we go about changing the science/math curricula

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Interesting...I also believe that many of those countries with higher number of scientists have a much more rigid study of music in their daily life. In fact, there is much evidence pointing to the fact that the longer a student participates in organized music programs in school 1) the higher the level of education they will receive 2) the higher level of pay they will receive and 3) the higher level of both that their offspring will achieve.

SO maybe we need to make sure there is music in EVERY school before we go about changing the science/math curricula

no the science and math curricula need to be changed, when school have low test scores they just lower the passing grade so more people pass and they get more tax money but we just get dumber as a nation.

[Jumbro]

no the science and math curricula need to be changed, when school have low test scores they just lower the passing grade so more people pass and they get more tax money but we just get dumber as a nation.


Seriously, lets not get into education reform......not in THIS thread anyways. There are many problems with public education in America. Just for the record though, musicians tend to score quite a bit higher than those not involved in music when it comes to standardized test as well.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Seriously, lets not get into education reform......not in THIS thread anyways. There are many problems with public education in America. Just for the record though, musicians tend to score quite a bit higher than those not involved in music when it comes to standardized test as well.

thats for truth, music is just math anyway, took me forever to get a 7/8 beat down.

[Jumbro]

thats for truth, music is just math anyway, took me forever to get a 7/8 beat down.


even more of it is science....and then you have the literature aspects (phrasing, rhythm, etc) and of course history. And in the religious school, we even get the wonderful opportunity to talk about use of music in religious contexts. Music is a physical activity, involving coordination of up to like 100 muscles at a time and then add in marching band. Also, and the biggest to me, is that music teaches so many life skills that wouldn't be learned elsewhere in school. Teamwork, listening, imagination, leadership, followership, etc. Music touches on every aspect of schooling, and furthers it.

In my opinion, a school can't do anything "above and beyond" our lowered standards unless it has a strong and living music program.

[GoldenArm9]

i dont care that you believe in creationism, i care that you teach it to kids.

math and science are not the focus of the educational system, and i think religion contributes to that.

how many young people going to this museum will have the attitude that science is wrong?
I hope every child that goes there sees that evolution is bad science and that its wrong ...

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

even more of it is science....and then you have the literature aspects (phrasing, rhythm, etc) and of course history. And in the religious school, we even get the wonderful opportunity to talk about use of music in religious contexts. Music is a physical activity, involving coordination of up to like 100 muscles at a time and then add in marching band. Also, and the biggest to me, is that music teaches so many life skills that wouldn't be learned elsewhere in school. Teamwork, listening, imagination, leadership, followership, etc. Music touches on every aspect of schooling, and furthers it.

In my opinion, a school can't do anything "above and beyond" our lowered standards unless it has a strong and living music program.

Just out of curiosity, and this has no objective, but what is you favorite band/group/muscian..etc,etc.....again just curious

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

I hope every child that goes there sees that evolution is bad science and that its wrong ...

Well I'm glad you're not in charge.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

In my opinion, a school can't do anything "above and beyond" our lowered standards unless it has a strong and living music program.


hey man i agree, im a drummer, granted i think marching band is one step up from chess club but yeah music is important.

in my opinion of course math and science are the most important subjects one can learn.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I hope every child that goes there sees that evolution is bad science and that its wrong ...

is there good science?

[GoldenArm9]

is there good science?
Science that makes sense ...

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Science that makes sense ...

ok i can see you're extremely polarised, my best advice is crack a book that ain't the bible every now and then.

[Jumbro]

Just out of curiosity, and this has no objective, but what is you favorite band/group/muscian..etc,etc.....again just curious


Well...I'm not your typical musician/music teacher (obviously, I'm on a Bengals chat board). Growing up my favorite musical group was always the Beach Boys. Once into high school and college I became MUCH more interested in forms of jazz and rock bands with the horn sections (ie Tower of Power). My favorite jazz artists would have to be Louis Armstrong, Thelonius Monk, and Miles Davis. As far as my favorite music for recreation, I'd have to say I like country the most, but I also like different rock, ESPECIALLY 80's rock. Favorite country groups/musicians would be Lonestar and Toby Keith in the current era.

All that being said, when I leave work (where it is mostly about music) I tune into 1530 or 700 for sports and sports talk. Very rarely do I listen to music for pleasure.

[Jumbro]

hey man i agree, im a drummer, granted i think marching band is one step up from chess club but yeah music is important.

in my opinion of course math and science are the most important subjects one can learn.

:SoapBox:

competitive marching band is FAR above chess club. It is right there with football, and at times surpassing. While watchinga show may not peak your interest I especially encourage you (And everyone) to watch the DCI championships when they are on ESPN (or one of the ESPNs) later this summer. They usually show a lot of the behind the scenes. These kids (Ages 14-21) go around for three months sleeping on gym floors. They rehearse/perform for 12-14 hours a day from sun up to sun-down (andlater). They travel across the nation, some criss-cross back and forth. They have one day a week off, for laundry. They are animals....ultimate athletes in my opinion. I show my music appreciation students (usually the football players who don't want to be in band or chorus) DCI CHampionships ever year and they come out amazed with a whole new look at marching band and the students who do it.

:SoapBox:

[Beaker]

There may be some physical evidence to suggest that evolution could be true.

Your understatement is showing.

[Beaker]

I hope every child that goes there sees that evolution is bad science and that its wrong ...

I hope every child that goes there realizes its just another amusement park ride.

[GoldenArm9]

I hope every child that goes there realizes its just another amusement park ride.
And this coming from a guy who uses a muppet ....:hmm:

[Eleden]

I hope every child that goes there realizes its just another amusement park ride.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20071208.gif

[barryllium]

thats for truth, music is just math anyway, took me forever to get a 7/8 beat down.

I'm sure there are plenty of people here who will gladly give you a full beat down... :lol:

Sorry, Sloppy. Couldn't resist. :thumbsup:

[barryllium]

Let me sum this thread up so far...

Sloppy: "AAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S RELIGION!!!!!!!!! RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
GA9: "AAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S SCIENCE!!!!!!!!! RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I think that does it.

[philhos]

http://www.creationmuseum.org/

17 other countries graduate more scientists than the united states.

For someone who doesn't like religion, you sure do bring it up a lot.

For someone who wants to stay away from religion, you sure do a poor job of it.

I couldn't decide which one to use, so I posted both. ;)

[philhos]

ok i can see you're extremely polarised,.

Well, if that ain't THE picture perfect, textbook example of the pot calling the kettle black ....

[Jumbro]

For someone who doesn't like religion, you sure do bring it up a lot.

For someone who wants to stay away from religion, you sure do a poor job of it.

I couldn't decide which one to use, so I posted both. ;)

Careful...that is basically what I said in a different thread and I was accused of telling him he didn't have the right to post on the boards or to speak his opinion.

[philhos]

Careful...that is basically what I said in a different thread and I was accused of telling him he didn't have the right to post on the boards or to speak his opinion.

Maybe so, but any idiot that's going to try to say that is going to have to make stuff up. Like yours, there's nothing in my post that says he can't post or doesn't have the right to blah blah blah. It's just pointing out his (hypocrisy? idiocy?) by constantly saying how he stays away from religion while starting all these threads on religion.

[Jasonew6]

i dont care that you believe in creationism, i care that you teach it to kids.

math and science are not the focus of the educational system, and i think religion contributes to that.

how many young people going to this museum will have the attitude that science is wrong?

No, it doesn't. Religion and science used to go hand in hand. Newton was a Christian.

The schools don't teach math and science anymore because it has become too PC. Outcome based education has ruined education, and that was a Liberal invention. Why are most of the best schools in Cincinnati religious based schools???

[thefo0]

No, it doesn't. Religion and science used to go hand in hand. Newton was a Christian.

The schools don't teach math and science anymore because it has become too PC. Outcome based education has ruined education, and that was a Liberal invention. Why are most of the best schools in Cincinnati religious based schools???

Funding.

[thefo0]

My theory on the Creation Museum:

If people want to have it, go for it. I may think it is a ridiculous and ill-informed concept, but I just won't go. But, I do think that people should be able to give tours refuting their displays. Just like this Creationist group did in a natural history museum in Denver.

http://www.skepticalmonkey.com/evolution-creation/creation-museum-tour/

I just have a hunch that it wouldn't be well received.

[philhos]

Funding.

Possibly. Or is it that the money is better spent?

[thefo0]

Possibly. Or is it that the money is better spent?

Well, I know that my alma mater has the third most money in its endowment. The only schools with more money are Xavier and UC. And if you look at the public schools with good national reputations (Lakota and Indian Hill) they are in fairly affluent, if not outright affluent like Indian Hill.

[philhos]

Well, I know that my alma mater has the third most money in its endowment. The only schools with more money are Xavier and UC. And if you look at the public schools with good national reputations (Lakota and Indian Hill) they are in fairly affluent, if not outright affluent like Indian Hill.

Oh, I don't doubt that having more money helps, but I feel that most public schools, like any other governmental agency, mismanage funds and would see a dramatic improvement by pushing more of their funding onto the child's education instead of on unnecessary things.

[Domata Dominance]

I've been to the creation museum, and I have to say it was the best museum I've ever been to. I came away with a deeper appreciation of God's creation. The main thing that a non-Christian would come away with, is an understanding of how Christians whole-heartedly approve scientific studies of every kind, and that the idea that we are opposed to science is absolutly ridiculous. (IF you go with an open mind)

[Danno]

http://www.creationmuseum.org/

17 other countries graduate more scientists than the united states.


I don't understand the point of you posting this link and making that statement. Are you just trying to make people angry? I can't see how you could be trying anything else by implying that believing in creation = poor education

[thefo0]

Oh, I don't doubt that having more money helps, but I feel that most public schools, like any other governmental agency, mismanage funds and would see a dramatic improvement by pushing more of their funding onto the child's education instead of on unnecessary things.

I agree. Mismanagement is a huge issue at every school. But, some schools are able to mismanage some money and have enough left to spend on the students. I know at my school, the priests lived in a mansion on campus and led a really good life for guys who took the vow of poverty.

I think that both of our arguments are complimentary though. More money obviously helps, but schools that do not have that luxury (and schools that do for that matter) need to figure out the most efficient means of improving the education of its students and in the process bettering their lives.

[Binturong]

I never really understood why most people are vehemently opposed to creationism. It's just a way to explain the origins of life and the origins of the universe, it has no effect on the observed science. An evolutionist biochemist, and a creationist biochemist will both engineer penicillin the same way because they both know the science works. So for me it's just a matter of opinion, especially since it comes down to God poofed everything into existence or molecules suddenly "came to life" (still poofing but no creator). This is why both theories fall short, and until we can create life on our own we'll never know the exact way life first started.

That being said if your against the concept of the creationist museum, go to it. At least then you'll have an idea of what creationists are teaching instead of some blind assumption that they just follow magical powers. I mean their rationalizations are very interesting and almost make logical sense. The only glaring problem I had was the fact that they base everything on God being hyperactive up till recorded history and then we learn how to write and he takes his hands away and lets us go alone. I just don't see that as good observation. Needless there is nothing wrong with learning more, even if it's wrong as long as you can form your own opinions and aren't a sheep.

Also have you ever thought that there are less scientists in the US because there is no money in science. Struggling to get funding for your projects doesn't appeal to America's consumer culture, so basically only the most dedicated stick with it. The education is there but if no one is willing to take it then obviously we'll have less scientists.

[Jumbro]

Going through Catholic schools my entire life, this is my view on how man was created (this is VERY simplified). In the end, I believe in both evolution and creationism, but Sloppy please thinka bout this before you automatically write it off. I think it will actually fit ok for you.


Again, this is VERY simplified)
I believe both.

I believe God created everything. I believe in the genesis story of it happening in 6 days with rest on the 7th.

NOW, that being said, I do not think of the 7 total days as equivelant to what we see as a 24 hour day. I believe God created Man over a long period of time. This long period of time, is the evolutionary process that can be scientifically traced. Much like a baby created in the womb, it grows and eventually because a child that is born and looks like a "normal" human being. I believe God started with something smaller, knowing he wanted to let it change. He let it continue to change, or evolve, over time until he believes it has reached perfection (which by the way is when I believe the end of the world will actually take place).

Now, this is not a Catholic stance on the process necessarily. This is what I have come to believe after years of both religion and science courses. This is how I have made sense out of all the evidence I've been presented.

[34inXXIII]

I don't think they will have the attitude that science is wrong. Evolution is a theory however, written by a man that was just as fallible as the ones you claim wrote the Bible. There may be some physical evidence to suggest that evolution could be true. But not all evidence must be physical, ie...faith; and the evidence of things hoped for through faith. If I honestly saw indisputable evidence that evolution was the means that we got here, I would believe it. That being said, I don't believe in evolution as the way we got here.
I think we should teach children what is out there and not according to an agenda.
Teach all the idea's so our children will have knowledge and let them decide what to believe.
Faith is not evidence. Faith is, in essence, opinion - a very strong belief in that opinion at that.

I do agree, though, that we should not be teaching children according to such agendas....agendas on both sides of the matter.

[Jasonew6]

Funding.

But if religion negated teaching math and science, funding shouldn't make any difference.

[philhos]

I agree. Mismanagement is a huge issue at every school. But, some schools are able to mismanage some money and have enough left to spend on the students. I know at my school, the priests lived in a mansion on campus and led a really good life for guys who took the vow of poverty.

I think that both of our arguments are complimentary though. More money obviously helps, but schools that do not have that luxury (and schools that do for that matter) need to figure out the most efficient means of improving the education of its students and in the process bettering their lives.

We are in an agreement.

LET'S DANCE THE MAMUSHKA!!!

[thefo0]

But if religion negated teaching math and science, funding shouldn't make any difference.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I understand what you are trying to get at here. Would you mind expanding your point a bit or rephrasing?

[thefo0]

We are in an agreement.

LET'S DANCE THE MAMUSHKA!!!

Ha, it was bound to happen.

[barryllium]

We are in an agreement.

LET'S DANCE THE MAMUSHKA!!!

No, Philhos. Now we are so happy we do the dance of joy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfPg5LjGYz8

[thefo0]

No, Philhos. Now we are so happy we do the dance of joy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfPg5LjGYz8

hahahahaha

Man, I haven't seen that in years.

[philhos]

No, Philhos. Now we are so happy we do the dance of joy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfPg5LjGYz8

Can't see the clip 'cause I'm at work, but I'm assuming you're showing a clip of Balki and Larry doing the Dance of Joy from Perfect Strangers, right?

I once did a skit with a friend doing that same dance. Good times.

[barryllium]

Can't see the clip 'cause I'm at work, but I'm assuming you're showing a clip of Balki and Larry doing the Dance of Joy from Perfect Strangers, right?

I once did a skit with a friend doing that same dance. Good times.

You are correct, sir. Props on doing this dance in a skit. All of us should do such great things. Me, I'm just limited to playing the role of Chris Farley in the Chippendales skit. Someday I shall achieve dance of joy greatness.

[Jasonew6]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I understand what you are trying to get at here. Would you mind expanding your point a bit or rephrasing?

Go back and read the post I quoted when I first posted, #30 in this thread. Sloppy Lombardi Slaps said:

math and science are not the focus of the educational system, and i think religion contributes to that.

So my response to that was my question as to why the best schools in Cincy are religious based schools.

[kevin28_1962]

Me, I'm just limited to playing the role of Chris Farley in the Chippendales skit.

Ohhhhhhh...... trying.....to ....get......mental....picture......out....of ....my ...brain....... NOOOOooooooooooooo...go ....away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jumbro]

No, it doesn't. Religion and science used to go hand in hand. Newton was a Christian.

The schools don't teach math and science anymore because it has become too PC. Outcome based education has ruined education, and that was a Liberal invention. Why are most of the best schools in Cincinnati religious based schools???

As a product of Cincinnati religious schools, and a teacher of one, I am VERY proud of that fact....but, it is an area I warn getting into. I'm proud of it, but I wish the public schools would not be that far. There are many reasons, and while I do believe a great deal of it has to do not so much with religion, but with the things religion allows us to bring into the classroom, there is MUCH MUCH more to the story. Save it for a different thread if you'd like (I'll be there) but....just not here, not now.

[Jumbro]

Funding.


again, plenty of room for a new thread on this...but, it is NOT because of funding at all. There are MANY MANY factors that play a MUCH bigger part in it.

[Jasonew6]

As a product of Cincinnati religious schools, and a teacher of one, I am VERY proud of that fact....but, it is an area I warn getting into. I'm proud of it, but I wish the public schools would not be that far. There are many reasons, and while I do believe a great deal of it has to do not so much with religion, but with the things religion allows us to bring into the classroom, there is MUCH MUCH more to the story. Save it for a different thread if you'd like (I'll be there) but....just not here, not now.

I didn't bring it to the thread, Slappy did.

[Jumbro]

I didn't bring it to the thread, Slappy did.

I know, and I told him the same thing...would love to have a discussion on it, but I was really trying hard to keep this thread on topic (which I admit to having a hard time with sometimes)

[philhos]

I know, and I told him the same thing...would love to have a discussion on it, but I was really trying hard to keep this thread on topic (which I admit to having a hard time with sometimes)

Try the blue pill. Wait, sorry, wrong thread. ;)

[barryllium]

Try the blue pill. Wait, sorry, wrong thread. ;)

Um, phil - did god call you to a new career as a pharmaceutical salesman?

[philhos]

Um, phil - did god call you to a new career as a pharmaceutical salesman?

That's just silly, barry, and I'm not going to dignify that with a response. To think that just because I think Viagra is cheap, yet more effective than any other product out there and I believe ALL men should have it and if they call now, they can get 25% off (that's a savings of over $10) doesn't make me their spokesperson or a salesman.

C'mon, how's about I buy you a nice Doubleshot™ on Ice Beverage from Starbucks?
http://www.starbucks.com/retail/images/doubleshot.jpg

[barryllium]

That's just silly, barry, and I'm not going to dignify that with a response. To think that just because I think Viagra is cheap, yet more effective than any other product out there and I believe ALL men should have it and if they call now, they can get 25% off (that's a savings of over $10) doesn't make me their spokesperson or a salesman.

C'mon, how's about I buy you a nice Doubleshot™ on Ice Beverage from Starbucks?
http://www.starbucks.com/retail/images/doubleshot.jpg

No thanks, I'm getting a headache, and the caffeine kills me. I think I'll take two of these:
http://www.oceantomo.com/images/nuprin.gif
Ah, Nuprin. Little. Yellow. Different.

[philhos]

No thanks, I'm getting a headache, and the caffeine kills me. I think I'll take two of these:
http://www.oceantomo.com/images/nuprin.gif
Ah, Nuprin. Little. Yellow. Different.

I like to wash my asprin down with a nice, cold bottle of Coca Cola.

http://www.grandmasterchang.com/images/pictures/coke.gif











Note: this may be the first thread that gets moved TO Klotch from this forum.

[barryllium]

I like to wash my asprin down with a nice, cold bottle of Coca Cola.

http://www.grandmasterchang.com/images/pictures/coke.gif

Note: this may be the first thread that gets moved TO Klotch from this forum.

That's because you are a murderer.
http://soaw.org/img/op/coke.jpg

[eliminate08]

I don't think they will have the attitude that science is wrong. Evolution is a theory however, written by a man that was just as fallible as the ones you claim wrote the Bible. There may be some physical evidence to suggest that evolution could be true. But not all evidence must be physical, ie...faith; and the evidence of things hoped for through faith. If I honestly saw indisputable evidence that evolution was the means that we got here, I would believe it. That being said, I don't believe in evolution as the way we got here.
I think we should teach children what is out there and not according to an agenda.
Teach all the idea's so our children will have knowledge and let them decide what to believe.

Beautiful post, and i agree completely man.:thumbsup:

[xxlt]

Quickly skimmed the thread and got the impression no one who posted had been to the creation museum. I haven't been either, even though it is less than 10 miles away. I thought about being a guinea pig and going and reporting back about it, but it costs $30 to get in and I don't think it is worth $30 to report findings to the MB.

If someone else wants to go and report on what the museum actually has in it (or wants to send me $30 for a ticket) I think it would be interesting to discuss the contents as opposed to the concept of the museum, which seemed to be what the thread was mainly about (again I just gave it a cursory glance). Has anyone (who posted) actually been to the place?

[Alias]

http://www.creationmuseum.org/

17 other countries graduate more scientists than the united states.

I don't entirely understand the reason you posted this. It sounds interesting to me, and I do plan on going at some point.

That being said, it seems that the funding for the museum was private, and doesn't really affect you in any way. It's only impacting the people who choose to go. If you don't want to see a creationist view of the origin of the universe, then don't go to the museum. What's the problem?

[jamiethelanky]

Well... because Skeeter said I wasn't a Christian on another thread, I guess I can't comment on Christian things but Creation has only microscopic backing in biology. Hence:- don't teach it in Biology! Teach (don't preach) it in Religious Studies (when someone makes the wise decision to create such an educational animal).

Frankly, evolution has easily more empirical evidence than creationism in the kind of the Bible (which is essentially a folk tale to simplify a long-running idea on the beginnings of the Universe).

I only ask one thing, can Creation beg the logic (beyond 'God made it') that Evolution does? I doubt it. All evidence at the moment points towards creatures evolving slowly both in physical features and behaviour.

[jamiethelanky]

Quickly skimmed the thread and got the impression no one who posted had been to the creation museum. I haven't been either, even though it is less than 10 miles away. I thought about being a guinea pig and going and reporting back about it, but it costs $30 to get in and I don't think it is worth $30 to report findings to the MB.

If someone else wants to go and report on what the museum actually has in it (or wants to send me $30 for a ticket) I think it would be interesting to discuss the contents as opposed to the concept of the museum, which seemed to be what the thread was mainly about (again I just gave it a cursory glance). Has anyone (who posted) actually been to the place?
$30? Rip off. Creationists can just get such evidence from t'Holy Book.

Charging for museums is the biggest risk to education in America today. I paid $30 last year for an entire day of cricket. I pay nothing to get into museums.

[xxlt]

$30? Rip off. Creationists can just get such evidence from t'Holy Book.

Charging for museums is the biggest risk to education in America today. I paid $30 last year for an entire day of cricket. I pay nothing to get into museums.

Well, I am sure someone will chime in and point out the injustice of the Creation Museum not getting any public funding and that is why they are forced to charge so much. It is part of the government plot to kill Christianity. :rolleyes:

[philhos]

Well, I am sure someone will chime in and point out the injustice of the Creation Museum not getting any public funding and that is why they are forced to charge so much. It is part of the government plot to kill Christianity. :rolleyes:

Charging for museums is the biggest risk to education in America today. I paid $30 last year for an entire day of cricket. I pay nothing to get into museums.

Museums in Pittsburgh all charge a fee to use (and none of the ones I looked at were Christian in any way, shape or form). Granted, the most expensive one was half the cost of the creation museum, but taking a family of 4 1/2 still was rather pricey for me.

However, I do agree that charging for museums seems unnecessary. I prefer those places that accept donations in lieu of an entrance fee.

[xxlt]

Museums in Pittsburgh all charge a fee to use (and none of the ones I looked at were Christian in any way, shape or form). Granted, the most expensive one was half the cost of the creation museum, but taking a family of 4 1/2 still was rather pricey for me.

However, I do agree that charging for museums seems unnecessary. I prefer those places that accept donations in lieu of an entrance fee.

I guess a really well endowed (no pun intended) museum can do that - just accept donations. I know the Freedom Center in Cincinnati is struggling financially and it is a really cool place - this is indicative of the difficulty a museum has getting financial traction early on.

The Cincinnati Museum Center at Union Terminal seems to be on better financial ground. Neither the museums housed there nor the Freedom Center are free. It brings up the old question of should taxes support things like museums (which I believe, like schools, benefit everyone) or should they/can they depend on the charity of wealthy patrons or should they be supported by admission fees? I think most in this area rely on a combination of those sources, actually. But I think admissions could be lower, patrons are generous, and the government could kick in more. I really think documenting history and culture is something that benefits a community and wouldn't have a problem with some tax money being allocated to museums. I guess I am in the minority with that view.

[Samhain]

30 bucks? Jeez! That's some serious jack for a museum. Do they think they're King's Island or something?

[Bengalized]

I hope every child that goes there sees that evolution is bad science and that its wrong ...

This is the same guy who believes the Obama is a terrorist supporter. The more I see of your posts, the more I begin to understand. Believing in creationism, extreme racism, closed-mindedness. It's all coming together like some kind of a tapestry of redneck ignorance.

[BANJAXED]

All I know is that if some "know-it-all" starts bothering me while I walk through it - trying to tell me how everything is wrong...this-and-that..I will most likely lose it and proceed to beat the crap out of them. I'm not there to listen to your arrogance. Just let me take a look at it myself and make my own judgement.

Thanks.

[xxlt]

This is the same guy who believes the Obama is a terrorist supporter. The more I see of your posts, the more I begin to understand. Believing in creationism, extreme racism, closed-mindedness. It's all coming together like some kind of a tapestry of redneck ignorance.

That comment, though doubtless well intentioned, is an affront to rednecks!

[wildcats forever]

I guess a really well endowed (no pun intended) museum can do that - just accept donations. I know the Freedom Center in Cincinnati is struggling financially and it is a really cool place - this is indicative of the difficulty a museum has getting financial traction early on.

The Cincinnati Museum Center at Union Terminal seems to be on better financial ground. Neither the museums housed there nor the Freedom Center are free. It brings up the old question of should taxes support things like museums (which I believe, like schools, benefit everyone) or should they/can they depend on the charity of wealthy patrons or should they be supported by admission fees? I think most in this area rely on a combination of those sources, actually. But I think admissions could be lower, patrons are generous, and the government could kick in more. I really think documenting history and culture is something that benefits a community and wouldn't have a problem with some tax money being allocated to museums. I guess I am in the minority with that view.

I wouldn't want my tax dollars going to the creation museum though, and after reading up on it a bit here (the "dreaded" wikipedia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_museum I had to highlight some of the conditions a permanent employee must meet in order to work there - a quote from the wikipedia article:

Workforce
The creation museum employs about 160 people with another 140 working at the attached Answers in Genesis headquarters. To help the museum's mission to evangelize, a chaplain is on staff for visitors in need of spiritual guidance. Each permanent employee must sign a statement of faith indicating that he or she believes in young Earth creationism and the other teachings of Answers in Genesis. These include "Scripture teaches a recent origin for man and the whole creation", "the only legitimate marriage is the joining of one man and one woman", "the great Flood of Genesis was an actual historic event" and "no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record." When applying for work a written statement of one's beliefs is required along with résumé and references.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

30 bucks? Jeez! That's some serious jack for a museum. Do they think they're King's Island or something?

No but I'm sure you'll gain about as much scientific knowlege, as though you went to Kings Island.

[Alias]

I wouldn't want my tax dollars going to the creation museum though, and after reading up on it a bit here (the "dreaded wikipedia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_museum I had to highlight some of the conditions a permanent employee must meet in order to work there - a quote from the wikipedia article:

Workforce
The creation museum employs about 160 people with another 140 working at the attached Answers in Genesis headquarters. To help the museum's mission to evangelize, a chaplain is on staff for visitors in need of spiritual guidance. Each permanent employee must sign a statement of faith indicating that he or she believes in young Earth creationism and the other teachings of Answers in Genesis. These include "Scripture teaches a recent origin for man and the whole creation", "the only legitimate marriage is the joining of one man and one woman", "the great Flood of Genesis was an actual historic event" and "no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record." When applying for work a written statement of one's beliefs is required along with résumé and references.

I just can't help but wonder what they mean by "the only legitimate marriage is the joining of one man and one woman." I would agree, but I don't think that the government should have the ability to restrict or demand marriages between anyone. Like, I don't think that our governments should say "gays can't marry," but I also don't think they should say "you must marry anyone who comes to you requesting it."

That was kind of a tangent, sorry. I see no problem with a private institution securing it's stance in it's workforce at all. Our tax dollars aren't supporting it.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

I wouldn't want my tax dollars going to the creation museum though, and after reading up on it a bit here (the "dreaded wikipedia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_museum I had to highlight some of the conditions a permanent employee must meet in order to work there - a quote from the wikipedia article:

Workforce
The creation museum employs about 160 people with another 140 working at the attached Answers in Genesis headquarters. To help the museum's mission to evangelize, a chaplain is on staff for visitors in need of spiritual guidance. Each permanent employee must sign a statement of faith indicating that he or she believes in young Earth creationism and the other teachings of Answers in Genesis. These include "Scripture teaches a recent origin for man and the whole creation", "the only legitimate marriage is the joining of one man and one woman", "the great Flood of Genesis was an actual historic event" and "no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record." When applying for work a written statement of one's beliefs is required along with résumé and references.

Well that's a bit disturbing.

[wildcats forever]

Well that's a bit disturbing.

So is seeing a dynosaur with a saddle on it in place that calls itself a "museum".

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

So is seeing a dynosaur with a saddle on it in place that calls itself a "museum".

Yeah it is....as long as it's privately funded I don't care, and nor will I take my son there. There are much better "museums" to visit.

[jamiethelanky]

"no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."
Well...

I guess we know what we are dealing with here...

No real museum would actively go against artefacts of history. What we have is simply another exercise for the God Squad to inflict their own firebrand 'la, la, la, I'm not listening' Christianity.

I choose intelligence, bon soir.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

For someone who doesn't like religion, you sure do bring it up a lot.

For someone who wants to stay away from religion, you sure do a poor job of it.

I couldn't decide which one to use, so I posted both. ;)

i dont like the steelers either but they are a popular subject in the smack forum, whats your point?

[kevin28_1962]

i dont like the steelers either but they are a popular subject in the smack forum, whats your point?

Hey Sloppy, we do have something in common. :thumbsup:

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

Go back and read the post I quoted when I first posted, #30 in this thread. Sloppy Lombardi Slaps said:



So my response to that was my question as to why the best schools in Cincy are religious based schools.

ability to afford the best teachers.

[BANJAXED]

ability to afford the best teachers.

False, private school teachers are vastly under paid compared to public school, and especially are even more deprived because those priavte teachers cannot take advantage of public education benefits (I.e. retirement, health etc etc)

If you've attended a private school you'd understand. It's because they have a family atmosphere where the majority of teachers have kids there or are alumni. That close nit community fosters the support that makes it successful. It's because the parents are even more so immersed in their children's education (from academics to band, drama and sports.) The parents cared enough to send them to an already established educational system and follow-up with helping that system with their own time and money.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

False, private school teachers are vastly under paid compared to public school, and especially are even more deprived because those priavte teachers cannot take advantage of public education benefits (I.e. retirement, health etc etc)

If you've attended a private school you'd understand. It's because they have a family atmosphere where the majority of teachers have kids there or are alumni. That close nit community fosters the support that makes it successful. It's because the parents are even more so immersed in their children's education (from academics to band, drama and sports.) The parents cared enough to send them to an already established educational system and follow-up with helping that system with their own time and money.

but the private schools also have the ability to fire bad teachers, and some private schools are in fact very wealthy and hire the best teachers.

trying to say the religion makes parents more involved in their children's education is ridiculous.

[philhos]

i dont like the steelers either but they are a popular subject in the smack forum, whats your point?

My point is that you said, besides disliking religion, that you want to STAY AWAY from it as well. Yet, you keep bringing it up.

If I wanted to stay away from dogs, I wouldn't go to the pound.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

My point is that you said, besides disliking religion, that you want to STAY AWAY from it as well. Yet, you keep bringing it up.

If I wanted to stay away from dogs, I wouldn't go to the pound.

which is why you wont find me a in church genius.

politics and religion forum needs non-believers just like smack forum needs opposing fans. grow up.

[philhos]

which is why you wont find me a in church genius.

politics and religion forum needs non-believers just like smack forum needs opposing fans. grow up.

Where did I say all non-believers need to leave? You can post all the stupid crap you want, for all I care. I'm just pointing out how STUPID you are for saying how you try to stay away from religion while talking about religion.

Sorry for trying to help you not look so stupid.

[Jumbro]

which is why you wont find me a in church genius.

politics and religion forum needs non-believers just like smack forum needs opposing fans. grow up.

Sloppy, THIS is why people are bothered by you. Outside of the two things in bold, your post is independently logical and even provokes a little thought. Then you add the bold parts and you lose credibility.

[Jumbro]

ability to afford the best teachers.


LOL, private schools do have great teachers but it isn't because the schools can afford them. 1st there is no proof that we private school educators are better than our public counterparts. There are good and bad in each situation. That being said, many private school teachers are lifers at the private school because they consider it a mission along with a job. The job part does not pay well, but the ability to build such great human beings out of the little seeds (metaphorically) we are given at first is AWE STRIKING. There are VERY FEW private schools that even compete with public school employees pay. Small example. My sister-in-law and I are both music teachers. She is elementary at a public school (small rural district, not the Mason of the world). I am at a Catholic high school. She has been teaching 8 years and I just finished my 4th. In her 8th year of teaching she was bringing home right over $44,000 (she has never told us what her initial salary, just that she brings home this much). I on the other hand made $30,200 before taxes. Looking at my pay scale at the school I am at, I will have to be here for 12 more years to reach the $45,000 mark (if I have my masters, which I'm working on, I will only have to be here 10 more years<_<).

Stop with the ignorant comments

[kevin28_1962]

but the private schools also have the ability to fire bad teachers, and some private schools are in fact very wealthy and hire the best teachers.

trying to say the religion makes parents more involved in their children's education is ridiculous.

I didn't see anywhere in Banjaxed reply that said it's because of religion that the parents are more involved in their education.

Why are you so vehemently against religious people?

[BANJAXED]

but the private schools also have the ability to fire bad teachers, and some private schools are in fact very wealthy and hire the best teachers.

trying to say the religion makes parents more involved in their children's education is ridiculous.

I didn't say anything about religion making parent's more invloved - so don't put words in my mouth. Simply read my whole post (which is something I doubt you seriously do).

Private schools have high teacher turnover due to that fact they don't have benefits and traditionally are just a stepping stool for young teachers to get experience. Those teachers that do stick around are typically alumni or have children in the system (because they can go there for free) . It's a family atmosphere in the private schools - and with that brings a huge following and continual support. That's what fosters their excellence.

You must've been public-schooled so you wouldn't understand.

[Jumbro]

but the private schools also have the ability to fire bad teachers, and some private schools are in fact very wealthy and hire the best teachers.

trying to say the religion makes parents more involved in their children's education is ridiculous.


All schools can "fire" (technically we are one 1 year contracts, so it just isn't renewed) bad teachers. Sure the unions make it a little harder in public school, and tenure is a rediculous concept when dealing with a topic that changes methods so frequently...but still, they can be fired.

I'd say maybe 1% of private schools can actually use their compensation (as philhos stated, aside from money also retirement and such) to attract the best of the best teachers.

I wouldn't say religion makes parents more involved in their education though (agree with you) BUT the two tend to go hand in hand. The parents who want to be most involved and want the best for their kids, AND HAVE THE FINANCIAL MEANS, will often look outside the public school district to find the best education (and athletic/arts as well) opportunities for their students. Most of these schools are religious schools.

Religious schools today are not what they were 40 years ago when many in this area were built. Then they were built as religious training schools so to speak. 99.9% of students were Catholic if they attended a Catholic school. Today it is different. Students of all nationalities, races, and religions (including the non-religious athiests:rolleyes:) send thier students to religious run institutions. Shoot, not even all the teachers are Catholic schools are Catholic.

[Jumbro]

I didn't say anything about religion making parent's more invloved - so don't put words in my mouth. Simply read my whole post (which is something I doubt you seriously do).

Private schools have high teacher turnover due to that fact they don't have benefits and traditionally are just a stepping stool for young teachers to get experience. Those teachers that do stick around are typically alumni or have children in the system (because they can go there for free) . It's a family atmosphere in the private schools - and with that brings a huge following and continual support. That's what fosters their excellence.

You must've been public-schooled so you wouldn't understand.


I like it "It's a Catholic School Thing--You wouldn't Understand!" That is a little longer than "It's a jeep thing" but I like it.

Unfortunately MANY Catholic schools are no longer offering free tuition. It is usually discounted though. But yeah, that has traditionally been a weight on the othe rside of the argument across from "no benefits" (we do have decent medical in the Archdio though).

[BANJAXED]

I like it "It's a Catholic School Thing--You wouldn't Understand!" That is a little longer than "It's a jeep thing" but I like it.

Unfortunately MANY Catholic schools are no longer offering free tuition. It is usually discounted though. But yeah, that has traditionally been a weight on the othe rside of the argument across from "no benefits" (we do have decent medical in the Archdio though).

But nothing remotely close to the public school benefits. But you guys should.

[sloppy lombardi slaps]

I didn't say anything about religion making parent's more invloved - so don't put words in my mouth. Simply read my whole post (which is something I doubt you seriously do).

Private schools have high teacher turnover due to that fact they don't have benefits and traditionally are just a stepping stool for young teachers to get experience. Those teachers that do stick around are typically alumni or have children in the system (because they can go there for free) . It's a family atmosphere in the private schools - and with that brings a huge following and continual support. That's what fosters their excellence.

You must've been public-schooled so you wouldn't understand.

family atmosphere promoting better education, i definitely buy that.

[jamiethelanky]

You must've been public-schooled so you wouldn't understand.
http://blog.everydayscientist.com/notscience/wp-content/uploads/elitism.jpg

[BANJAXED]

http://blog.everydayscientist.com/notscience/wp-content/uploads/elitism.jpg

Nope, just merely stating that its easier to see the relationship of "support and excellence" when you're apart of it. Not trying to sound snotty.

[Bengalized]

False, private school teachers are vastly under paid compared to public school, and especially are even more deprived because those priavte teachers cannot take advantage of public education benefits (I.e. retirement, health etc etc)

If you've attended a private school you'd understand. It's because they have a family atmosphere where the majority of teachers have kids there or are alumni. That close nit community fosters the support that makes it successful. It's because the parents are even more so immersed in their children's education (from academics to band, drama and sports.) The parents cared enough to send them to an already established educational system and follow-up with helping that system with their own time and money.

I agree (I think, if I understand you correctly).

Could it simply be a function of the fact that parents who send their kids to private schools, and pay tuition to do so, are more involved in their children's academic development?

Forest Hills and Oak Hills schools both come to mind as very good public schools, with a wealth of Advanced Placement classes available to students who excel that many private schools do not offer. I personally think that it comes down to good parenting.

[Bengalized]

I went to a public High School and a private University. Both have their plusses. Both have their drawbacks.

[Jumbro]

I agree (I think, if I understand you correctly).

Could it simply be a function of the fact that parents who send their kids to private schools, and pay tuition to do so, are more involved in their children's academic development?

Forest Hills and Oak Hills schools both come to mind as very good public schools, with a wealth of Advanced Placement classes available to students who excel that many private schools do not offer. I personally think that it comes down to good parenting.

Yes, they are good districts. But, I think the atmosphere is still a little different. They are definately in communities that promote education. I think there is a lack of family atmosphere though...cohesiveness so to speak because of the school.

[Bengalized]

Yes, they are good districts. But, I think the atmosphere is still a little different. They are definately in communities that promote education. I think there is a lack of family atmosphere though...cohesiveness so to speak because of the school.

That may be true. Personally I think that public high schools do a better job of exposing people to different races and creeds, and just generally a more diverse cross section of society than private schools, most of which are religiously based and consist of a vast majority of students that share the same religion (or at least their familys do).

There may be more oppotunities to fall in with the wrong crowd in public schools, but those opportunities will always be there throughout life so why not learn how to make good decisions at a young age. If you are going to make mistakes, make them young enough so that you can learn from them and move on.

I got in some trouble in high school, and I learned from it. I graduated from a highly regarded college with honors and have a good career and a great family. I learned from the mistakes that I made when I was young. Conversely, I ran across a lot of people at college that had gone to private catholic high schools, and led a fairly sheltered life. Some of them hadn't learned how to make good decisions, and they got in trouble in college. I would rather my kids learn those lessons before college, when they have more time to get their heads out of their rear ends and move on.

[Jumbro]

That may be true. Personally I think that public high schools do a better job of exposing people to different races and creeds, and just generally a more diverse cross section of society than private schools, most of which are religiously based and consist of a vast majority of students that share the same religion (or at least their familys do).

There may be more oppotunities to fall in with the wrong crowd in public schools, but those opportunities will always be there throughout life so why not learn how to make good decisions at a young age. If you are going to make mistakes, make them young enough so that you can learn from them and move on.

I got in some trouble in high school, and I learned from it. I graduated from a highly regarded college with honors and have a good career and a great family. I learned from the mistakes that I made when I was young. Conversely, I ran across a lot of people at college that had gone to private catholic high schools, and led a fairly sheltered life. Some of them hadn't learned how to make good decisions, and they got in trouble in college. I would rather my kids learn those lessons before college, when they have more time to get their heads out of their rear ends and move on.


Hey, is this off topic or what...anyways, what you are saying is a great argument for not sending a kid to private schools. That wasn't the issue that arose though. The question was why private schools are more successful and I think the family atmosphere...the comradary if you will, makes a huge difference (among parents, students, staff, and alum)