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kacymcbryant18
05-19-2009, 12:31 PM
From the front page.

Early in practice Andrew Whitworth lined up at left tackle with first-round draft pick Andre Smith at right tackle. Nate Livings (left) and Bobbie Williams (right) manned the guard positions while Kyle Cook was the center.

Jasonew6
05-19-2009, 12:35 PM
From the front page.

Where did you see this? I refreshed the page 2 times and still have no more recent update than 6pm last night.

mad river
05-19-2009, 12:39 PM
Missing from the field was J. Johnson........(probably still at the chow hall) ! Could it be shades of Sam Adams working out by himself just to get in shape to get out on the field? Just wondered.

Stewy
05-19-2009, 12:40 PM
Where did you see this? I refreshed the page 2 times and still have no more recent update than 6pm last night.

It's not an article with a picture. Look at the article list and it is there.

fumblerooski
05-19-2009, 12:40 PM
link:

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/lock-down/491f2bb7-10e5-4f5b-aaea-19b2ac739233

AtomicBlaze
05-19-2009, 12:41 PM
I wonder if Anthony Collins showed up to camp out of shape or something. Based on how he did last year you would think there was a spot for him in the starting lineup.

Stewy
05-19-2009, 12:41 PM
Missing from the field was J. Johnson........(probably still at the chow hall) ! Could it be shades of Sam Adams working out by himself just to get in shape to get out on the field? Just wondered.

Frankly I don't care. JJ lost his job and his contract. The FB positions isnt his by default, he has to earn it. if he is too injured, too fat or too self centered to be on the field then the rookies are going to kick his butt and he'll be cut.

mad river
05-19-2009, 12:43 PM
Frankly I don't care. JJ lost his job and his contract. The FB positions isnt his by default, he has to earn it. if he is too injured, too fat or too self centered to be on the field then the rookies are going to kick his butt and he'll be cut.

I totally agree !!

BANJAXED
05-19-2009, 12:43 PM
I wonder if Anthony Collins showed up to camp out of shape or something. Based on how he did last year you would think there was a spot for him in the starting lineup.

just because its their first time - doesnt mean thats what is set in stone

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 12:44 PM
Given Cook's raw strength, Livings experience "in the system", and Whit's experience as an NFL LT ... I can have some faith in this O-Line starting the season.

I'd like to see Luigs compete for either C or LG during TC ... but that's my only hope/observation based solely on the naming of the initial lineup.

I will say, for those who may have issue with Cook ... keep in mind, the common comment on these boards is "being able to handle the big NT in the AFC North ... Cook's strength (I believe Thornton referred to him as the strongest Bengal on the field) gives him the best shot against those monsters. Luigs has brains to his advantage, but at least Cook has been able to watch & learn from the sidelines for two years to gain some familiarity/experience within the AFC North.

I'll be eager to see what the outcome is for opening day's O-Line.

WHO DEY!

Cincy's Best
05-19-2009, 12:44 PM
I am wondering what is going on with Anthony Collins? This kid played great last season and they now have him as a back up? They need to get him on the field. I really hope this is just a preliminary and that AC will get a shot at playing LT, LG, or RT. With Whitworth playing LT or LG, and Andre playing LT or RT. I like Livings but I don't see him as a starter.

Though I will admit, I am not a coach, and I don't see everything that they see.

bengalbuck11
05-19-2009, 12:44 PM
Frankly I don't care. JJ lost his job and his contract. The FB positions isnt his by default, he has to earn it. if he is too injured, too fat or too self centered to be on the field then the rookies are going to kick his butt and he'll be cut.

As long as coats isnt back there he is useless

DTEVENER
05-19-2009, 12:45 PM
Anthony Collins is going to get work at tackle most likly on the right that way if smith holds out he will be ready to play. How many time do we have a first round pick in camp on time. If not need to be ready for a long hold out. I hope not but has happened to many times.

Jasonew6
05-19-2009, 12:47 PM
Any concerns about quarterback Carson Palmer's elbow were dispelled early when Palmer threw an easy 45-yard floater on the money downfield to Henry, who caught it in stride.


Actually, I have ZERO concern about his throwing. My concern with his arm is what happens if it takes another hit.

CaptainCanada
05-19-2009, 12:47 PM
Remember everyone, this is the first OTA, although my concern is, if this is indeed how the line-up will be day the one(which I doubt), why did we drafted a right tackle when the consenus better tackle, and a left tackle was on the board?

That's a cardinal sin right there.

Stewy
05-19-2009, 12:49 PM
Anthony Collins is going to get work at tackle most likly on the right that way if smith holds out he will be ready to play. How many time do we have a first round pick in camp on time. If not need to be ready for a long hold out. I hope not but has happened to many times.

If one was following more than ESPN then one would realize Smith's current agents have little to no history with their clients holding out. And yes they have had top 10 cleints before. An agents history of having clients hold out is more important than the client themselves when it comes to negotiations.

fredtoast
05-19-2009, 12:49 PM
Is Kooistra healthy? I would have thought that he would be ahead of Livings at Guard.

Stewy
05-19-2009, 12:53 PM
Remember everyone, this is the first OTA, although my concern is, if this is indeed how the line-up will be day the one(which I doubt), why did we drafted a right tackle when the consenus better tackle, and a left tackle was on the board?

That's a cardinal sin right there.

Good lord are you still beating that drum? Let if go Cap. Let it go. The coaches know more about football than you. Just accept it.

And Monroe wasn't the consensus best LT. Just in your mind. Many had A Smith as the best and only dinged him for his supposed character issues. This has been said over and over before and even more after the draft. People like Ozzie newsome have said he's the best tackle in the draft - you know - one of best GM's in the game.

Let it go Cap.

Cincy's Best
05-19-2009, 12:53 PM
Remember everyone, this is the first OTA, although my concern is, if this is indeed how the line-up will be day the one(which I doubt), why did we drafted a right tackle when the consenus better tackle, and a left tackle was on the board?

That's a cardinal sin right there.

Actually, Andre Smith was considered by many to be the best OT (left or right) before the combine and pro-day hype.

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 12:53 PM
Remember everyone, this is the first OTA, although my concern is, if this is indeed how the line-up will be day the one(which I doubt), why did we drafted a right tackle when the consenus better tackle, and a left tackle was on the board?

That's a cardinal sin right there.

Not when you have a starting LT already on the team who has experience in the AFC North, has trust built with Carson, and has some question as to whether he can play RT effectively.

In addition, with the loss/retirement of Big Willie and the lack-of-heir-apparent that was Stacy Andrews, the rock for the RT was an area of major concern ... especially in a team looking to revitalize it's running game.

Also, as I recall, Monroe was not the consensus "better tackle" ... he was the consensus "safer pick" ... he's a LT through and through, whereas there's real belief that Smith can play both T positions when needed, and versatitility counts here.

WHO DEY!

victor24
05-19-2009, 12:54 PM
It's way too early to put 'starters' in stone; however, Nate Livings must be a real good prospect at this point. The O-line may have an abundence of talent and all may qualify as starters, but just like the 'blessing' with WRs, there's only so many that can get on the field per play. This is a great problem to have...........at this point. Carson must feel like the Football Gods have decided it's his time to :rock on:

mad river
05-19-2009, 12:54 PM
Is Kooistra healthy? I would have thought that he would be ahead of Livings at Guard.

I find Kooistra lacking, myself. I'd rather we should have picked up a better vetern backup than Koos.

Luvnit2
05-19-2009, 12:55 PM
Given Cook's raw strength, Livings experience "in the system", and Whit's experience as an NFL LT ... I can have some faith in this O-Line starting the season.

I'd like to see Luigs compete for either C or LG during TC ... but that's my only hope/observation based solely on the naming of the initial lineup.

I will say, for those who may have issue with Cook ... keep in mind, the common comment on these boards is "being able to handle the big NT in the AFC North ... Cook's strength (I believe Thornton referred to him as the strongest Bengal on the field) gives him the best shot against those monsters. Luigs has brains to his advantage, but at least Cook has been able to watch & learn from the sidelines for two years to gain some familiarity/experience within the AFC North.

I'll be eager to see what the outcome is for opening day's O-Line.

WHO DEY!
All I know is we learned in pre-season a year ago how bad our O-line was as Palmer was killed in games against teams like the Lions. Let's hope the development of the line the past 6 games and a couple of new additions at tackle and center as well as one at guard will make us better on both the run and passing games.

Paul from Dayton
05-19-2009, 12:58 PM
I'm surprised that they would have Livings playing LG instead of leaving Collins at LT and Whit at LG. I thought Collins played well enough to deserve a chance at LT this year.

crazyjdawg
05-19-2009, 01:00 PM
Remember everyone, this is the first OTA, although my concern is, if this is indeed how the line-up will be day the one(which I doubt), why did we drafted a right tackle when the consenus better tackle, and a left tackle was on the board?

That's a cardinal sin right there.

cuz we have 2 guys on our roster who have been successful at LT(Collins and Whit) and zero who have had success, or even experience, at RT.
IF we took Monroe, and Collins wasn't strong enough to man RT, we'd have three LTs and no one to play RT. Which I think you can call a "cardinal sin"

wildcats forever
05-19-2009, 01:00 PM
Is Kooistra healthy? I would have thought that he would be ahead of Livings at Guard.

Kooistra hasn't shown much as a backup tackle, and might be on the bubble depending on what Luigs shows at playing some guard while picking up the system and developing as our future center. If Mathis gains a little weight and strength, he might replace Kooistra.

kaufman.170
05-19-2009, 01:03 PM
besides cook (michigan state), this is an all SEC line y'all. not important just thought I would point that out :)

et2house
05-19-2009, 01:05 PM
I am wondering what is going on with Anthony Collins? This kid played great last season and they now have him as a back up? They need to get him on the field. I really hope this is just a preliminary and that AC will get a shot at playing LT, LG, or RT. With Whitworth playing LT or LG, and Andre playing LT or RT. I like Livings but I don't see him as a starter.

Though I will admit, I am not a coach, and I don't see everything that they see.

I'm surprised that they would have Livings playing LG instead of leaving Collins at LT and Whit at LG. I thought Collins played well enough to deserve a chance at LT this year.

I seriously can't believe the coaches have been preaching all of-season that the best players will play and Collins doesn't have a starting spot on the line. I hope he is either hurt or thy're just making it a competition for the LG spot. Livings played solidly last year at LG, but no way he's a better lineman than Collins. Collins played LG during the preseason last year and did a really good job there, so there's evidence he can play OG.

Bengal Dude
05-19-2009, 01:12 PM
The abscence of Collins is surprising.

BANJAXED
05-19-2009, 01:22 PM
I wouldve also liked to hear the RB line up as well

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 01:24 PM
All I know is we learned in pre-season a year ago how bad our O-line was as Palmer was killed in games against teams like the Lions. Let's hope the development of the line the past 6 games and a couple of new additions at tackle and center as well as one at guard will make us better on both the run and passing games.

While I will NEVER ARGUE that we saw evidence of the O-Line's issues in preseason (read: Palmer's broken nose), I would caution that the Detroit game really threw off any hope for a fair assessment. The Lions DC was trying to build his teams confidence, so he threw in blitzes & stunts that would not normally be used in the preseason. Our O-Line wasn't even thinking about such moves only to get nailed.

I'm not even remotely looking to justify the poor play of the O-Line, just saying the Saints game showed the real problems (even the Colts game to some extent, as the pocket collapsed around Fitz) moreso than the Lions game.

In retrospect, if you want to believe in Karma, the Lions went 0-16 ... so all his effort suceeded in was winning a meaningless game.


WHO DEY!

AtomicBlaze
05-19-2009, 01:27 PM
Has Andre Smith ever played RT before? Expecting a rookie to start at a position he never played is asking a lot.

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 01:30 PM
By the way ... the best part of the updated article are the words "45 yard completion" "from Palmer" "to Chris Henry" ... all being part of the same sentence ...

WHO DEY!

BennyBengals
05-19-2009, 01:32 PM
I really hope they move Collins to LT and Whit to LG during the process as i feel that would be a very strong blind side, with Andre Smith and Bobie Williams mauling on the right!!! Bring Cook's strength in at C and i think that's a pretty strong o-line!

kaufman.170
05-19-2009, 01:33 PM
Has Andre Smith ever played RT before? Expecting a rookie to start at a position he never played is asking a lot.


from my understanding all you do is do everything backwards (right hand instead of left and etc). plus most of the time you have the help of a TE on the strong side.

The Bengal Thing
05-19-2009, 01:37 PM
By the way ... the best part of the updated article are the words "45 yard completion" "from Palmer" "to Chris Henry" ... all being part of the same sentence ...

WHO DEY!

Agreed.....

My head is a touch low after not seeing Simspons name mentioned, but it's not like it isn't unexpected. The position Caldwell plays is open, and the position Simpson plays is DEEP.

wildcats forever
05-19-2009, 01:39 PM
I really advise not getting bogged down when seeing different combinations at this point. It's what they should be doing at this point in time, especially when looking at an almost complete makeover. Let the play on the field dictate who starts where - that's the most important thing.

Cincy's Best
05-19-2009, 01:52 PM
I guess I am fine with not having Collins in there now. This is the time to see what everybody can do. That way when TC starts you know you will have the best players at each position. As long as the line up is put together on the 1st day of TC and remains that way (unless an injury of course) then we should be fine. I just don't want to be playing name that lineman on the last day of TC, like last year.

TheeBengalofNorthMyrtle
05-19-2009, 01:56 PM
While I will NEVER ARGUE that we saw evidence of the O-Line's issues in preseason (read: Palmer's broken nose), I would caution that the Detroit game really threw off any hope for a fair assessment. The Lions DC was trying to build his teams confidence, so he threw in blitzes & stunts that would not normally be used in the preseason. Our O-Line wasn't even thinking about such moves only to get nailed.

I'm not even remotely looking to justify the poor play of the O-Line, just saying the Saints game showed the real problems (even the Colts game to some extent, as the pocket collapsed around Fitz) moreso than the Lions game.

In retrospect, if you want to believe in Karma, the Lions went 0-16 ... so all his effort suceeded in was winning a meaningless game.


WHO DEY!


Big John, I recall agreeing with most of your opinions... but in this case I do not. I think Fitzy replacing Palmer only disguised our problems at O-line. Fitzy's ability to scramble/pull it down and run may contribute to the reason why we think the O-line came around toward the end of the season.

I say contribute, b/c I do think that they did improve, and found guys that worked hard. But with Palmer being an extremely immobile QB, protection has to be spot on.

With the release of the Gutter-check, over priced stacy, injured Levi... and the addition of Smith and Luigs combined with the guys referred to above that improved at the end of the year, there is no possibility for this line to not be anything less than middle-of-the-road. Also having the potential to be upper 1/4 of O-lines in the league. Not to mention vastly improving as the season goes on.

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 02:03 PM
Big John, I recall agreeing with most of your opinions... but in this case I do not. I think Fitzy replacing Palmer only disguised our problems at O-line. Fitzy's ability to scramble/pull it down and run may contribute to the reason why we think the O-line came around toward the end of the season.

I say contribute, b/c I do think that they did improve, and found guys that worked hard. But with Palmer being an extremely immobile QB, protection has to be spot on.

With the release of the Gutter-check, over priced stacy, injured Levi... and the addition of Smith and Luigs combined with the guys referred to above that improved at the end of the year, there is no possibility for this line to not be anything less than middle-of-the-road. Also having the potential to be upper 1/4 of O-lines in the league. Not to mention vastly improving as the season goes on.

I'm not sure what opinion of mine you're disagreeing with ... since I never said Fitzy did anything (in fact, I noted that the O-Line was still showing problems in the final preseason game against the Colts because their 2nd & 3rd stringers were collapsing the pocket on our first string O-line around Fitz).

I will agree with your comment that Fitz playing QB made the O-Line look better (especially in the middle part of the season) then it actually was ... much like Big Ben's ability to scramble and shake off tackles makes the Steeler's O-Line not look as weak as it truly is (scary to think they won the SB with that O-Line ...and beat the Ravens D!).

Wish I knew where we were disagreeing just for the sake of knowing where to take the discussion.

WHO DEY!

WHO_DEY_51
05-19-2009, 02:08 PM
I'm surprised that they would have Livings playing LG instead of leaving Collins at LT and Whit at LG. I thought Collins played well enough to deserve a chance at LT this year.

Remember emphasis on the running game.

I've been saying it all along. Whitworth is too big and tall to play LG. He is better than collins. So, he gets the start over Collins at LT.

Smith is considered better than Collins at run blocking, so he gets the start over collins at RT.

Collins is a solid backup who can play both LT and RT. They may not want to get him hurt. If Whitworth or Smith gets hurt the bengals have a solid backup T.

Same with Kooistra. If Williams or Livings gets hurt they have his replacement in Kooistra at LG or RG. Livings is not proven to play RG. So, Kooistra would be a better backup than Livings if they were at a tie. Also, Livings could be believed to be a better run blocking G than Collins.

Cook will be backed up by Luigs and Santucci, who may get cut for another T or G/T since Williams can play C.

That gives us 9 linemen.

P.S.
Collins may replace Livings in training camp when they know for sure that Smith is signed. If Smith holds out, then they have to scramble the line again. It would be better to replace one player instead of scrambling the whole line around. Plus, as i said at the top, Collins would be a solid backup T and would have a 10% (practice) chance of getting hurt.

I am positive that when Smith is signed they will integrate Collins in as LG. I believe he is better than Livings.

Another thing to consider is that Whitworth and Livings played next to each other in college. They are already comfortable playing next to each other.

battey60
05-19-2009, 02:15 PM
Here is my idea. they must consider 2 different sets when we face different teams with different DE's

When we face the Dwight Freeneys of the NFL that Whit has knowlingly struggled against, I can see them moving him in and placing Colliins there.

Now against the teams Like Baltimore or Pitt who send rushers at all angles this Oline could be formidable. I think in Pitt an balt they blitz the gaps alot more. I think havin Whit and Livings on the left makes that side strong against gap penetration.

They better have a plan against Dwight Freeney and Mario Williams because those guys will eat Whit for breakfast.

battey60
05-19-2009, 02:17 PM
Oh I just watched Whit play LT in the game against Philadelphia last year and he really played bad.

3wt
05-19-2009, 02:31 PM
I really hope they move Collins to LT and Whit to LG during the process as i feel that would be a very strong blind side, with Andre Smith and Bobie Williams mauling on the right!!! Bring Cook's strength in at C and i think that's a pretty strong o-line!

Amen! That's my vote. The only one Collins had serious trouble with was Freeney - the same guy Whit had trouble with. The line would only get stronger as the season wears on. I hope that's a look they'll seriously consider... and try.

busamboy
05-19-2009, 02:32 PM
Has Andre Smith ever played RT before? Expecting a rookie to start at a position he never played is asking a lot.

Technically he has never played left tackle too if you really think about it. And why wouldn't every one just agree that he has the tools to be more successful to be on the right? And if you really think about it, what difference does it make? We play in a 3-4 division, you know, where defenders come from both sides equally:wacko:

There are also no fast DE on the left, and for the 1 or 2 games a season that we do (which is just about every team cause there are only a select few you have to worry about in Freeney and Jared Allen) We will provide extra help on the left side. And that is with or without Smith on the left

jsr18
05-19-2009, 02:34 PM
:tiger: At this point, I just can't believe that Whitworth is one of the best Tackles on the field. He was a great Tackle in college. For the last 3 yrs he's been one of the better guards in the league, now we're back to he'as one of the best Tackles.....

It appears that once again all through OTA's and TC and pre-season we're gonna play "musical linemen" up until the regular season starts which will not give any of them time to jell. :angry:

What is wrong with coming out and telling the starters "you're my starting________. It's your job to lose" then tell tell all the other linemen "you want his job take it" and leave it at that.....

This is worrisome....

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 02:35 PM
Technically he has never played left tackle too if you really think about it. And why wouldn't every one just agree that he has the tools to be more successful to be on the right? And if you really think about it, what difference does it make? We play in a 3-4 division, you know, where defenders come from both sides equally:wacko:

There are also no fast DE on the left, and for the 1 or 2 games a season that we do (which is just about every team cause there are only a select few you have to worry about in Freeney and Jared Allen) We will provide extra help on the left side. And that is with or without Smith on the left

You mentioned Jared Allen as a "speed rusher" reminds me of something ...

For those who criticize Whit's ability to handle those types of DEs, it was Whit who shut Allen down in the '07 KC game ... after Levi got exposed and blown away by him 3 different times (almost in direct sequence if memory serves correctly).

WHO DEY!

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 02:41 PM
It appears that once again all through OTA's and TC and pre-season we're gonna play "musical linemen" up until the regular season starts which will not give any of them time to jell. :angry:

What is wrong with coming out and telling the starters "you're my starting________. It's your job to lose" then tell tell all the other linemen "you want his job take it" and leave it at that.....

This is worrisome....

What makes you think we're playing Musical Lineman? Bengals have released nothing of that evidence, only we on the boards have offered thoughts of what we'd like to (or rather) see. Thornton and Whit have hinted for a couple weeks now, they've KNOWN what the O-Line was going to be ... For all we know right now, what's on the field today is who the Bengals have officially given the starting jobs to (except for A. Smith, simply because he hasn't inked the contract yet) and have told the others to do just as you said "step up and take it" if they want to move up the depth chart.

I'd say making Collins the primary OT back-up is the way they're avoiding Musical Lineman ... because now he's both Whit's & Smith's backup ... no more having to slide him out as the back-up LT (when needed) and bringing in a new LG to replace him. Now, one man goes down, one position changes ... and that's much simpler than in "you go here, now you come in and replace him."

WHO DEY!

CaptainCanada
05-19-2009, 02:42 PM
It looks like it's going to be Whit at left and Smith at right for the forseeable future, from the article on Bengals.com

"And that's the way it's going to stay for a long time. Or at least when you're talking about the tackles and the way head coach Marvin Lewis envisions it. He said after practice that's how the tackles are going to line up while he's the head coach."

jsr18
05-19-2009, 02:47 PM
What makes you think we're playing Musical Lineman? Bengals have released nothing of that evidence, only we on the boards have offered thoughts of what we'd like to (or rather) see. Thornton and Whit have hinted for a couple weeks now, they've KNOWN what the O-Line was going to be ... For all we know right now, what's on the field today is who the Bengals have officially given the starting jobs to (except for A. Smith, simply because he hasn't inked the contract yet) and have told the others to do just as you said "step up and take it" if they want to move up the depth chart.

I'd say making Collins the primary OT back-up is the way they're avoiding Musical Lineman ... because now he's both Whit's & Smith's backup ... no more having to slide him out as the back-up LT (when needed) and bringing in a new LG to replace him. Now, one man goes down, one position changes ... and that's much simpler than in "you go here, now you come in and replace him."

WHO DEY!

:tiger: I understand what you're saying. I guess my biggest problem is with Whit playing Tackle.

He's a better fit a guard. Whit and Bobbie as guards to kind of "anchor" the new guys...

I know what you're thinking and no, I'm not an NFL coach. However, I have one of my famous "gut feelings" that they're gonna screw this up....

Jasonew6
05-19-2009, 02:55 PM
Oh I just watched Whit play LT in the game against Philadelphia last year and he really played bad.

You do understand that he moved over to LT in the middle of a game, against one of the most aggressive pass rushing defenses in the NFL without having PRACTICED at LT in several months, right?

The moves and footwork at LT and LG are quite a bit different.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 02:55 PM
I am wondering what is going on with Anthony Collins? This kid played great last season and they now have him as a back up? They need to get him on the field. I really hope this is just a preliminary and that AC will get a shot at playing LT, LG, or RT. With Whitworth playing LT or LG, and Andre playing LT or RT. I like Livings but I don't see him as a starter.

Though I will admit, I am not a coach, and I don't see everything that they see.

I think maybe they like Whit better overall and want to give him a shot at it. Maybe he'd of been at LT last year too if they hadn't been trying to squeeze one more year out of Levi.

At any rate, maybe many of us were wrong to have ACollins penciled in as a starter. I'm sure last years fourth round pick would be just fine with being Whit's backup at the LT spot. I'm sure Carson would enjoy the peace of mind of knowing that his blindside Tackles backup has proven himself capable as well if indeed this is the five they're looking to move forward with.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 03:00 PM
You do understand that he moved over to LT in the middle of a game, against one of the most aggressive pass rushing defenses in the NFL without having PRACTICED at LT in several months, right?

The moves and footwork at LT and LG are quite a bit different.

Not to mention the fact that in that game the Bengals still managed to tie with a playoff team that is one of the favorites to make the Super Bowl this year. He must not have been completely inept out there, even though as you mentioned, hopping in on the fly at LT vs. Philly's defense is a tall order for anyone.

LebanonFan
05-19-2009, 03:14 PM
:tiger: At this point, I just can't believe that Whitworth is one of the best Tackles on the field. He was a great Tackle in college. For the last 3 yrs he's been one of the better guards in the league, now we're back to he'as one of the best Tackles.....

It appears that once again all through OTA's and TC and pre-season we're gonna play "musical linemen" up until the regular season starts which will not give any of them time to jell. :angry:

What is wrong with coming out and telling the starters "you're my starting________. It's your job to lose" then tell tell all the other linemen "you want his job take it" and leave it at that.....

This is worrisome....

Marvin and Alexander didn't sound like we would be playing musical linemen in that article. Alexander even said this isn't going to be American Idol with people popping in and out and deciding our line on the last day of camp. This looks to be our line for at least the near future, or as Marvin said, those are my tackles while I'm coach.

For all the Livings doubters, I seem to recall quite a few nice pulls from the LG position, especially in the Cleveland game, that allowed Benson to break free for bigger chunks of yardage; pulls that we never seemed to see with Whitworth at the LG spot.

Whitworth will handle LT just fine. He has great reach, he plays now with some real intensity, and he has stepped up to become the leader of our OL. If we keep him there and let him work at the position all year and through TC, he should be just fine. By the way, anyone remember if he played LT or RT at LSU. I'm thinking LT if he was lined up next to Livings there, as well.

MaineBengal
05-19-2009, 03:15 PM
Hmmm, wonder what happened to Marvin's line that Andre Collins is a young player you can build your franchise around.....?

CaptainCanada
05-19-2009, 03:19 PM
Hmmm, wonder what happened to Marvin's line that Andre Collins is a young player you can build your franchise around.....?

All coaches say that about their young players, you aren't going to crush them when they are fragile and getting used to the league.

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 03:31 PM
For those who wonder why Livings might get the intitial nod at LG ... two words, Chemistry & Familiarity. From the front page article:

"(Whitworth) reminded folks the last time he lined up with Livings at left tackle before Tuesday the Tigers won the national title in 2003."

I don't believe Livings was the starting LG then, but he obviously played O-Line there with Whit. Reuniting them on the left side of our O-Line plays on an already established trust.

Many of us were ecstatic about the reuniting of Sting Rey and Rivers ... this is a similiar idea on the other side of the ball.

(keep in mind, the article states that the job is Livings, but he'll have competition who'll be vying for it as well ... so it's not written in stone).

Still, that little tidbit of knowledge/trivia makes Livings getting the nod make a little more sense.

WHO DEY!

Skyblade
05-19-2009, 03:42 PM
First of all, quit the "the coaches know better" non-sense, they don't. Especially not those on offense, and those on O-line particuarlly. We have Paul "Stacy Andrews is the best OT in the league" Alexander, Bob - kill the offense - Bratkowski and Marvin - the clueless - Lewis. Not a reliable judge of talent to any degree. Face it, only our D will use the best players available, and that's because of Zimmer. Our O will throw players out, claim their the best and then refuse to take them out until they've spent 5+ games proving they are terrible.

If it were up to me Collins would be LT, I don't know how they think LT Whit, LG Livings is a better combo then LT Collins LG Whit. Collins is more suited in build and skill to play LT. Whit is a potential pro-bowler at LG.

Livings is perfectly suited to replace Williams in a year or so. We would then be set for a long time with Collins-Whit-Luigs-Livings-Smith. Maybe they like Collins at RG?

I really don't know, I can't come up with an explanation. My best hope is this is just experimentation early in the off-season and they will move Whit back and Collins in later. Of course Brat is always working to make the O as bad as possible, so maybe our coaches just need to reenforce their idiocy after people started to complement them on their draft...

battey60
05-19-2009, 03:43 PM
You do understand that he moved over to LT in the middle of a game, against one of the most aggressive pass rushing defenses in the NFL without having PRACTICED at LT in several months, right?

The moves and footwork at LT and LG are quite a bit different.



All I am saying is watch the game. He is not athletic enough to play LT. This is wrong all wrong. I watched him play LT before and he was getting burned. the speed rushers will eat him. We must be lining up a TE besides him or something, I just don't get it.

Stewy
05-19-2009, 03:50 PM
First of all, quit the "the coaches know better" non-sense, they don't. Especially not those on offense, and those on O-line particuarlly. We have Paul "Stacy Andrews is the best OT in the league" Alexander, Bob - kill the offense - Bratkowski and Marvin - the clueless - Lewis. Not a reliable judge of talent to any degree. Face it, only our D will use the best players available, and that's because of Zimmer. Our O will throw players out, claim their the best and then refuse to take them out until they've spent 5+ games proving they are terrible.

If it were up to me Collins would be LT, I don't know how they think LT Whit, LG Livings is a better combo then LT Collins LG Whit. Collins is more suited in build and skill to play LT. Whit is a potential pro-bowler at LG.

Livings is perfectly suited to replace Williams in a year or so. We would then be set for a long time with Collins-Whit-Luigs-Livings-Smith. Maybe they like Collins at RG?

I really don't know, I can't come up with an explanation. My best hope is this is just experimentation early in the off-season and they will move Whit back and Collins in later. Of course Brat is always working to make the O as bad as possible, so maybe our coaches just need to reenforce their idiocy after people started to complement them on their draft...

When a professional team employees any of you who say the Bengals are wrong, then come talk to me. Until then "They know better" is true.

Because if you all were so smart you'd be making a living at it. I have a tendency to believe that NFL coaches probably make a tad more than the salary of your average midwesterner, so if you all are so smart you'd be employed as an NFL coach, right?

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 03:57 PM
First of all, quit the "the coaches know better" non-sense, they don't. Especially not those on offense, and those on O-line particuarlly. We have Paul "Stacy Andrews is the best OT in the league" Alexander, Bob - kill the offense - Bratkowski and Marvin - the clueless - Lewis. Not a reliable judge of talent to any degree. Face it, only our D will use the best players available, and that's because of Zimmer. Our O will throw players out, claim their the best and then refuse to take them out until they've spent 5+ games proving they are terrible.

If it were up to me Collins would be LT, I don't know how they think LT Whit, LG Livings is a better combo then LT Collins LG Whit. Collins is more suited in build and skill to play LT. Whit is a potential pro-bowler at LG.

Livings is perfectly suited to replace Williams in a year or so. We would then be set for a long time with Collins-Whit-Luigs-Livings-Smith. Maybe they like Collins at RG?

I really don't know, I can't come up with an explanation. My best hope is this is just experimentation early in the off-season and they will move Whit back and Collins in later. Of course Brat is always working to make the O as bad as possible, so maybe our coaches just need to reenforce their idiocy after people started to complement them on their draft...

Brat being a bad playcaller don't mean you know better than the coaches which guys fit better where on the line, that's just crazy talk bro.

I trust Whit to get the job done at LT because I know he'll kill somebody before he lets Carson get lit up. He'll give up a sack here and there like every other linemen in the league but if he was physically unable to perform in the position, then what say you to the fact that much like Collins last year, he filled in capably when Levi was hurt a couple years back before we had Collins.

I like the idea of having two LT's that practice and prepare to play that spot week in and week out, both of whom have proven themselves able to do the job. That's what I see when I look at the prospects of our two deep on Carson's blindside being 1.) Andrew Whitworth, 2.) Anthony Collins.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 04:04 PM
All I am saying is watch the game. He is not athletic enough to play LT. This is wrong all wrong. I watched him play LT before and he was getting burned. the speed rushers will eat him. We must be lining up a TE besides him or something, I just don't get it.

Post a link to this game tape you've broken down that has you convinced the coaches would just inexplicably expose Carson to what, in your estimation, will surely be a blindside barrage of "showtime forced fumble return for TD's" type of hits. I find it hard to believe that Whit has put the kind of evidence to support what you say on tape for all to see and only the Bengals coaches are blind to it. If he had, he wouldn't be playing the position.

Edit: Oh, you're still talking about the Philly game. Well, I wonder if after jumping into the spot on the fly he missed a couple assignments as is to be expected, or are you submitting that he just plain stunk play after play and couldn't block anybody at all the whole time he was at LT.

DTEVENER
05-19-2009, 04:08 PM
If one was following more than ESPN then one would realize Smith's current agents have little to no history with their clients holding out. And yes they have had top 10 cleints before. An agents history of having clients hold out is more important than the client themselves when it comes to negotiations.


If you read the page now he is not sure who his agent is going to be. So as i said hope no hold out but never know.

busamboy
05-19-2009, 04:10 PM
First of all, quit the "the coaches know better" non-sense, they don't. Especially not those on offense, and those on O-line particuarlly. We have Paul "Stacy Andrews is the best OT in the league" Alexander, Bob - kill the offense - Bratkowski and Marvin - the clueless - Lewis. Not a reliable judge of talent to any degree. Face it, only our D will use the best players available, and that's because of Zimmer. Our O will throw players out, claim their the best and then refuse to take them out until they've spent 5+ games proving they are terrible.

If it were up to me Collins would be LT, I don't know how they think LT Whit, LG Livings is a better combo then LT Collins LG Whit. Collins is more suited in build and skill to play LT. Whit is a potential pro-bowler at LG.

Livings is perfectly suited to replace Williams in a year or so. We would then be set for a long time with Collins-Whit-Luigs-Livings-Smith. Maybe they like Collins at RG?

I really don't know, I can't come up with an explanation. My best hope is this is just experimentation early in the off-season and they will move Whit back and Collins in later. Of course Brat is always working to make the O as bad as possible, so maybe our coaches just need to reenforce their idiocy after people started to complement them on their draft...

It sounds to me like you lost a bet with that first part :lol:

bleed/org&blk
05-19-2009, 04:25 PM
Post a link to this game tape you've broken down that has you convinced the coaches would just inexplicably expose Carson to what, in your estimation, will surely be a blindside barrage of "showtime forced fumble return for TD's" type of hits. I find it hard to believe that Whit has put the kind of evidence to support what you say on tape for all to see and only the Bengals coaches are blind to it. If he had, he wouldn't be playing the position.

Edit: Oh, you're still talking about the Philly game. Well, I wonder if after jumping into the spot on the fly he missed a couple assignments as is to be expected, or are you submitting that he just plain stunk play after play and couldn't block anybody at all the whole time he was at LT.

:agree: I admit, I didn't like the fact that they moved Whit to LT but then again who am I. I must admit, I do like having Livings at LG. The kid played good last year when I got the chance to see him play. I also like the idea of setting the line now and keeping it that way until someone out plays their competition. Continuety is the name of the game, especailly on the OL.

Stewy
05-19-2009, 04:29 PM
If you read the page now he is not sure who his agent is going to be. So as i said hope no hold out but never know.

Well yeah, sure NOW. When I made my post above, the last thing we had heard from Smith his "agent" was that he didn't see there being an issue with a hold out and that particular agency doesn't have a history of hold outs. So an hour after my post Andre corrects me on the Bengals front page. *shrugs* My info. was right when I posted it. I can't help it if ASmith is schizophrenic.

battey60
05-19-2009, 04:35 PM
Post a link to this game tape you've broken down that has you convinced the coaches would just inexplicably expose Carson to what, in your estimation, will surely be a blindside barrage of "showtime forced fumble return for TD's" type of hits. I find it hard to believe that Whit has put the kind of evidence to support what you say on tape for all to see and only the Bengals coaches are blind to it. If he had, he wouldn't be playing the position.

Edit: Oh, you're still talking about the Philly game. Well, I wonder if after jumping into the spot on the fly he missed a couple assignments as is to be expected, or are you submitting that he just plain stunk play after play and couldn't block anybody at all the whole time he was at LT.


I have it recorded onto my DVR. Spend the $20 bucks on NFL.com try NFL rewind. Why would he have a tough time? He has been a LT his whole career. He played 10 games there are a rookie. Please watch the game.

ochocinco85
05-19-2009, 04:52 PM
Collins should play at either T or G. Maybe in place of Nate Livings. That's the only problem I have with the line....Nate Livings. Collins just seems to be better.
Whitworth is very versatile so there's not set place for him. It'd be an easier transition as a rookie for Smith to go to Guard but RT is still a good spot to put a rookie at too. I like the personnell at Tackle. Guard and Center have me worrying.

CaptainCanada
05-19-2009, 04:57 PM
First of all, quit the "the coaches know better" non-sense, they don't. Especially not those on offense, and those on O-line particuarlly. We have Paul "Stacy Andrews is the best OT in the league" Alexander, Bob - kill the offense - Bratkowski and Marvin - the clueless - Lewis. Not a reliable judge of talent to any degree. Face it, only our D will use the best players available, and that's because of Zimmer. Our O will throw players out, claim their the best and then refuse to take them out until they've spent 5+ games proving they are terrible.

If it were up to me Collins would be LT, I don't know how they think LT Whit, LG Livings is a better combo then LT Collins LG Whit. Collins is more suited in build and skill to play LT. Whit is a potential pro-bowler at LG.

Livings is perfectly suited to replace Williams in a year or so. We would then be set for a long time with Collins-Whit-Luigs-Livings-Smith. Maybe they like Collins at RG?

I really don't know, I can't come up with an explanation. My best hope is this is just experimentation early in the off-season and they will move Whit back and Collins in later. Of course Brat is always working to make the O as bad as possible, so maybe our coaches just need to reenforce their idiocy after people started to complement them on their draft...

If you were some football guru you would be coaching in the NFL or have a front office position in the NFL. Since you aren't I'll go by what the coaches think 10/10 times when it's your so called knowledge against theirs. Until then be quiet and let the coaches do their job, critique it when they actually play a game in 2009.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 05:00 PM
I have it recorded onto my DVR. Spend the $20 bucks on NFL.com try NFL rewind. Why would he have a tough time? He has been a LT his whole career. He played 10 games there are a rookie. Please watch the game.

Just based on the teams action of putting him in the spot I would tend to believe that if that one game is as damning as you suggest that I could probably go watch the ten games he played as rookie and see why they are putting him there in spite of one bad game vs. Philly last year.

Also, did he play again after the Philly game, perhaps that's the game in which he was injured.

Edit: I just checked and that is absolutely the case, the Philly game is the game he got hurt, cause he didn't play the rest of the year. That pretty much destroys any "watch the Philly game as proof he can't do the job" logic.

Jasonew6
05-19-2009, 05:05 PM
Collins should play at either T or G. Maybe in place of Nate Livings. That's the only problem I have with the line....Nate Livings. Collins just seems to be better.
Whitworth is very versatile so there's not set place for him. It'd be an easier transition as a rookie for Smith to go to Guard but RT is still a good spot to put a rookie at too. I like the personnell at Tackle. Guard and Center have me worrying.

Has Collins ever played guard? Livings played VERY well there last year.

hacker
05-19-2009, 05:06 PM
I don't understand it at all. Whit is a quality LG, BUT, he didn't show anything positive in his short tryout as our LT. So it looks like we weaken the LG position with the loss of Whit and the addition of Livings and we weaken the LT position with Collins out and Whit in IMO. I much prefer Collins, even tho he too had some questions to Whitworth who was basically embarassed by speed guys in the Philly game. I really think this will backfire and we will see them having musical chairs trying to straighten this thing out which will slow the progress of everyone. .

Magikod
05-19-2009, 05:06 PM
Collins should play at either T or G. Maybe in place of Nate Livings. That's the only problem I have with the line....Nate Livings. Collins just seems to be better.
Whitworth is very versatile so there's not set place for him. It'd be an easier transition as a rookie for Smith to go to Guard but RT is still a good spot to put a rookie at too. I like the personnell at Tackle. Guard and Center have me worrying.


Collins needs to play LT and move Whit to LG! Or possibly Livings at LG, we will let them battle for the starting spot in training camp.

OSUfan
05-19-2009, 05:09 PM
I wonder if Anthony Collins showed up to camp out of shape or something. Based on how he did last year you would think there was a spot for him in the starting lineup.

According to the staff they feel that Whit and Andre are their 2 best tackles.

Jasonew6
05-19-2009, 05:10 PM
I don't understand it at all. Whit is a quality LG, BUT, he didn't show anything positive in his short tryout as our LT. So it looks like we weaken the LG position with the loss of Whit and the addition of Livings and we weaken the LT position with Collins out and Whit in IMO. I much prefer Collins, even tho he too had some questions to Whitworth who was basically embarassed by speed guys in the Philly game. I really think this will backfire and we will see them having musical chairs trying to straighten this thing out which will slow the progress of everyone. .

He started 10 games at LT as a rookie and had 1 bad game. Against one of the best pass rushers in the NFL. And our offense finished 6th in the NFL that year.

Whit will be fine.

OSUfan
05-19-2009, 05:11 PM
just because its their first time - doesnt mean thats what is set in stone

According to Marvin it is. Here is his statement from the article:


And that's the way it's going to stay for a long time. Or at least when you're talking about the tackles and the way head coach Marvin Lewis envisions it. He said after practice that's how the tackles are going to line up as long as he's the head coach.

"When I watched (Smith) on tape, that's what he looked like to me. It looked like he would have an opportunity to be real successful," Lewis said. "I feel real good about Andrew and what he can do on the other side. I feel like that kind of locks us down for a lot of years for two very key spots ... as long as I'm here

battey60
05-19-2009, 05:12 PM
Just based on the teams action of putting him in the spot I would tend to believe that if that one game is as damning as you suggest that I could probably go watch the ten games he played as rookie and see why they are putting him there in spite of one bad game vs. Philly last year.

Also, did he play again after the Philly game, perhaps that's the game in which he was injured.



Don't know where you can get the tape of Whit in 2006. I just noticed alot of Miscues. And he was beat one on one alot. We gave up 8 sacks that game. That was with Fitzpatrick. Imagine Carson Standing there? brutal.

Which other game did he start at LT last year? If it was the very next game then there is reason to debate becasue we gave up 1 sack that game.


I am going to watch this game again tonight after work maybe I am being to harsh but at the time I kept thinking to myself that I am glad we have Collins of A. Smith to play LT.

IMO he is too big and not atletic enough for the LT position. I would like to see what they plan to do to help him there. I can see if we have a TE or FB helping most of the time. I think he will do fine against the Pitts and Baltimores of the League but teams like Houston and Indy would kill to have Whit one on one.

I should wait and see I guess.

OSUfan
05-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Remember everyone, this is the first OTA, although my concern is, if this is indeed how the line-up will be day the one(which I doubt), why did we drafted a right tackle when the consenus better tackle, and a left tackle was on the board?

That's a cardinal sin right there.

I am so tired of this argument. Willie Anderson was drafted at #10. He was drafted to play RT for this franchise. Was it a mistake to draft Willie in that slot? I dare you to try and make an argument that it was a mistake.

There is no reason Smith can not man the RT spot for as long as Willie did and to do it as well as he did. If this is what happens then again it was not a mistake. This crap about not drafting RTs in the 1st RD is ludicrous. If you can get a guy that you know can dominate the position then it warrants the pick.

AtomicBlaze
05-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Philly can make a lot of teams look bad. Did you see what they did to the Steelers?

battey60
05-19-2009, 05:16 PM
http://nationalpost.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7804&team=4 just found these stats.

pretty sure he gave up most of those sacks against Philly. also 5.5 sacks given up in 10 games his rookie year is a pretty high number.

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 05:17 PM
Don't know where you can get the tape of Whit in 2006.

You can actually get highlights of the entire 2006 season at iTunes ... also, check out the Kansas City game in 2007, when J. Allen was just dominating Levi Jones only to have Whit come in at LT and shut him down the remainder of the game.

WHO DEY!

AtomicBlaze
05-19-2009, 05:18 PM
Whitworth will be fine you guys, I would be more worried about center if I were you.

OSUfan
05-19-2009, 05:19 PM
I find Kooistra lacking, myself. I'd rather we should have picked up a better vetern backup than Koos.

What is he lacking as a back up? He has played very good football and given quality minutes at every position he has been asked to play during his entire tenure with this franchise. While, I do not see him as a starter, the importance of a guy that can come off the bench during a game without taking meaningful snaps in practice is very underrated.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 05:24 PM
He started 10 games at LT as a rookie and had 1 bad game. Against one of the best pass rushers in the NFL. And our offense finished 6th in the NFL that year.

Whit will be fine.

This is true, Carson got sacked more than usual that year, but I don't know that it was Whit giving up those sacks. At any rate, if as a rookie he can start ten games at LT and the offense end up sixth in the league and Carson goes to the Pro Bowl, he must at least be decent, that was the last year we had any sort of run game too.

The questions on the line are not at LT imo, I like Whit or Collins at that spot. Center and the overall cohesiveness of the unit as a whole are the things we have to worry about. There is hope because we replaced the problems (Levi, Gutstink, Stacy) with younger, and at this point, better players (Livings, Cook, ASmith). The two who were any good remain as the leaders of the group.

Looks like Collins would the number one backup for either tackle spot, and Luigs maybe can do the same thing for any of the interior positions.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 05:27 PM
http://nationalpost.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7804&team=4 just found these stats.

pretty sure he gave up most of those sacks against Philly. also 5.5 sacks given up in 10 games his rookie year is a pretty high number.

5 and a half sacks in ten games as a rookie LT is not bad in my book. I posted it earlier, but you musta missed it, he sustained his injury that put him out for the year last season in the Philly game. So you can stop pointing to that game as the red herring that proves your point because apparently he was just gutting it out for the team as we had already lost Levi the same day.

OSUfan
05-19-2009, 05:29 PM
:tiger: At this point, I just can't believe that Whitworth is one of the best Tackles on the field. He was a great Tackle in college. For the last 3 yrs he's been one of the better guards in the league, now we're back to he'as one of the best Tackles.....

It appears that once again all through OTA's and TC and pre-season we're gonna play "musical linemen" up until the regular season starts which will not give any of them time to jell. :angry:

What is wrong with coming out and telling the starters "you're my starting________. It's your job to lose" then tell tell all the other linemen "you want his job take it" and leave it at that.....

This is worrisome....

Did anyone even read the article in regard to the offensive line? I would suggest reading it again if you did and if you did not then I would suggest reading it. Marvin stated right in the article that the tackles are set.......PERIOD! His statement was actually that they are set for as long as he is the coach. Whitworth at LT and Smith at RT. Where is the worry of musical linemen coming from?

They say that for now Livings is the starting LG, they will look at others there. Cook is the starting center and it is his job to lose. Bobbie is pretty obvious. They also stated that they want Luigs to get comfortable with playing the guard position.

fumblerooski
05-19-2009, 05:30 PM
With Lewis' quote that the offensive line is what he imagines to see for now and the future as long as he is head coach, we should all accept it and move on. I also disagree that Whitworth should be moved from LG but it is not our call to make, and I will trust the coaches that get paid the big bucks to make these kind of decisions.

The thing I like about Lewis' declaration is that we avoid the offensive line decisions from last year's preseason. I think Lewis has learned from his mistakes last year, owned up to them, and is moving forward this year with a much better plan.

Last year, we had musical chairs with will it be this way or that, will it be the jurassic, and no one knew who would eventually start where, even the quarterback. Then we end up cutting one of our leaders and veterans of the line the week before the season starts. We all know what our line ended up doing to our franchise quarterback last year and how the season turned out for the offense.

This season we cut the old veteran before OTA's start so he will not take any repetitions from other players. We set the line and say this is how it's going to be and the backups are going to have to unseat the starters, with Lewis and the other coaches putting in the best players at what they think are their best positions on the field from day one. Now the players have three whole months to gel together to know each other's tendencies and style, and most importantly, Carson Palmer knows who will be where and where to expect his protection from.

The offensive line was one of the huge question marks for me going into this season, but after day one of OTA's, I am already feeling a lot better.

WHO_DEY_51
05-19-2009, 05:32 PM
When a professional team employees any of you who say the Bengals are wrong, then come talk to me. Until then "They know better" is true.

Because if you all were so smart you'd be making a living at it. I have a tendency to believe that NFL coaches probably make a tad more than the salary of your average midwesterner, so if you all are so smart you'd be employed as an NFL coach, right?

I'd have to disagree only because there are people out there that could be great coaches, but never got the chance because of other circumstances.

A high school coach could be just as good, but since he is coaching high schoolers in Division IV, nobody is going to look at him. Becuase he would have to move to Division I, then to Division II college ball, then to Division I college ball, then to a NFL position coaching job, then to a OC or DC coaching job, then to a HC coaching job. that is a long way to go for a person that didn't play in the NFL or has no connection to the NFL. It would take that person 25 years to get recognized by the NFL.

But i agree with you when people say they no better at that job because somebody else disagrees with them.

AtomicBlaze
05-19-2009, 05:33 PM
I actually like the fact that the coaches have picked a starting O-Line early so that they can build some chemistry as a starting unit as soon as possible.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 05:35 PM
I'd have to disagree only because there are people out there that could be great coaches, but never got the chance because of other circumstances.

A high school coach could be just as good, but since he is coaching high schoolers in Division IV, nobody is going to look at him. Becuase he would have to move to Division I, then to Division II college ball, then to Division I college ball, then to a NFL position coaching job, then to a OC or DC coaching job, then to a HC coaching job. that is a long way to go for a person that didn't play in the NFL or has no connection to the NFL. It would take that person 25 years to get recognized by the NFL.

Just because a person has the potential to do it in theory don't mean that they have any clue what they're talking about with reguard to who should start at a particular postion on a particular team that they've never coached for.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 05:41 PM
I actually like the fact that the coaches have picked a starting O-Line early so that they can build some chemistry as a starting unit as soon as possible.

Absofrigginlutely. I've said it before, at the problem postions, they have upgraded individually speaking. That's all I can ask for as a fan from an offseason personell moves perspective, well, except for Center, Cook better be good is all I'm sayin'. But ASmith is better than Stacy, and Whit's backup is better than last years starting LT. Livings played well at LG so I'm good with him there.

The more time they have to meld into one fully functional organism all their own as a group the better the team will be for it.

BANJAXED
05-19-2009, 05:44 PM
Absofrigginlutely. I've said it before, at the problem postions, they have upgraded individually speaking. That's all I can ask for as a fan from an offseason personell moves perspective, well, except for Center, Cook better be good is all I'm sayin'. But ASmith is better than Stacy, and Whit's backup is better than last years starting LT. Livings played well at LG so I'm good with him there.

The more time they have to meld into one fully functional organism all their own as a group the better the team will be for it.

this made me laugh 54'

biology meets football :lol:

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 05:45 PM
Did anyone even read the article in regard to the offensive line? I would suggest reading it again if you did and if you did not then I would suggest reading it. Marvin stated right in the article that the tackles are set.......PERIOD!

Be careful ... that article has been updated throughout the day with changes/additions/adjustments (when the O-Line positions first appeared, there was no quote from Marvin or anyone else ... it, like most articles, has evolved during the course of the day).

Many of the statements made by board members near the beginning of this thread were made BEFORE those quotes and comments from the coaching staff and players were available to be read.

WHO DEY!

WHO_DEY_51
05-19-2009, 05:53 PM
First of all, quit the "the coaches know better" non-sense, they don't. Especially not those on offense, and those on O-line particuarlly. We have Paul "Stacy Andrews is the best OT in the league" Alexander, Bob - kill the offense - Bratkowski and Marvin - the clueless - Lewis. Not a reliable judge of talent to any degree. Face it, only our D will use the best players available, and that's because of Zimmer. Our O will throw players out, claim their the best and then refuse to take them out until they've spent 5+ games proving they are terrible.

If it were up to me Collins would be LT, I don't know how they think LT Whit, LG Livings is a better combo then LT Collins LG Whit. Collins is more suited in build and skill to play LT. Whit is a potential pro-bowler at LG.

Livings is perfectly suited to replace Williams in a year or so. We would then be set for a long time with Collins-Whit-Luigs-Livings-Smith. Maybe they like Collins at RG?

I really don't know, I can't come up with an explanation. My best hope is this is just experimentation early in the off-season and they will move Whit back and Collins in later. Of course Brat is always working to make the O as bad as possible, so maybe our coaches just need to reenforce their idiocy after people started to complement them on their draft...

Remember emphasis on the running game.

I've been saying it all along. Whitworth is too big and tall to play LG. He is better than collins. So, he gets the start over Collins at LT.

Smith is considered better than Collins at run blocking, so he gets the start over collins at RT.

Collins is a solid backup who can play both LT and RT. They may not want to get him hurt. If Whitworth or Smith gets hurt the bengals have a solid backup T.

Same with Kooistra. If Williams or Livings gets hurt they have his replacement in Kooistra at LG or RG. Livings is not proven to play RG. So, Kooistra would be a better backup than Livings if they were at a tie. Also, Livings could be believed to be a better run blocking G than Collins.

Cook will be backed up by Luigs and Santucci, who may get cut for another T or G/T since Williams can play C.

That gives us 9 linemen.

P.S.
Collins may replace Livings in training camp when they know for sure that Smith is signed. If Smith holds out, then they have to scramble the line again. It would be better to replace one player instead of scrambling the whole line around. Plus, as i said at the top, Collins would be a solid backup T and would have a 10% (practice) chance of getting hurt.

I am positive that when Smith is signed they will integrate Collins in as LG. I believe he is better than Livings.

Another thing to consider is that Whitworth and Livings played next to each other in college. They are already comfortable playing next to each other.

Try to understand what the bengals are trying to do before you think you are right. They are trying to run the ball. Whitworth is too big of a LG to do that. You need a guy that runs a around a 5.00 40. Like i've said previously. Since the end of the season. Whitworth is also to tall for LG. At 6'7" he gets infront of Palmers line of sight. DO THE MATH!!!!!

That prevents the bengals offense from doing a lot of plays. They can't do certain running plays and they can't do certain pass plays because of this. The reason why the T being 6'7" is not a problem is because they are usually Parallel to the quarterback, forming the pocket.

Yes, they can design play around it, but if the quarterback can't throw 5 - 10 yard passes to the left side of the field, this can become a problem especially when you play 3-4 teams. Have you ever wondered why Chad doesn't run short passes and Houshmandzadeh does? Bingo!!

Magikod
05-19-2009, 05:54 PM
Try to understand what the bengals are trying to do before you think you are right. They are trying to run the ball. Whitworth is too big of a LG to do that. You need a guy that runs a around a 5.00 40. Like i've said previously. Since the end of the season. Whitworth is also to tall for LG. At 6'7" he gets infront of Palmers line of sight. DO THE MATH!!!!!

That prevents the bengals offense from doing a lot of plays. They can't do certain running plays and they can't do certain pass plays because of this. The reason why the T being 6'7" is not a problem is because they are usually Parallel to the quarterback, forming the pocket.

Yes, they can design play around it, but if the quarterback can't throw 5 - 10 yard passes to the left side of the field, this can become a problem especially when you play 3-4 teams. Have you ever wondered why Chad doesn't run short passes and Houshmandzadeh does? Bingo!!


How tall is Nate Livings? :wink:

OSUfan
05-19-2009, 05:56 PM
Be careful ... that article has been updated throughout the day with changes/additions/adjustments (when the O-Line positions first appeared, there was no quote from Marvin or anyone else ... it, like most articles, has evolved during the course of the day).

Many of the statements made by board members near the beginning of this thread were made BEFORE those quotes and comments from the coaching staff and players were available to be read.

WHO DEY!

Why would I be careful? I posted the actual statement from the updated article earlier, so everyone should certainly know what it states now.

BigJohnWC
05-19-2009, 05:58 PM
Why would I be careful? I posted the actual statement from the updated article earlier, so everyone should certainly know what it states now.

I meant be careful in making bold statements ... your comment (that I had quoted) seemed to have the tone of "Did you even bother reading this??" Maybe "please be polite" would've been a little more appropriate.

That's all I was meaning. No threats unless you're a Steeler fan! ;-)

WHO DEY!

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 06:06 PM
this made me laugh 54'

biology meets football :lol:

It's a good analogy because individually these guys can go heads up with every D-Linemen in the league and dominate every single matchup but if they don't play well together on gameday they'll get abused by all the different stunts and schemes defenses employ.

battey60
05-19-2009, 06:21 PM
It's a good analogy because individually these guys can go heads up with every D-Linemen in the league and dominate every single matchup but if they don't play well together on gameday they'll get abused by all the different stunts and schemes defenses employ.


guess that is one thing to be happy about. I hope we stick with our guns on this one. I know for a fact that we will be better in the run game with this Lineup. Maybe Livings showed them something in the Run game and they had to find a spot for him.

I just can't imagine why else Collins would be on the sidelines.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 06:31 PM
guess that is one thing to be happy about. I hope we stick with our guns on this one. I know for a fact that we will be better in the run game with this Lineup. Maybe Livings showed them something in the Run game and they had to find a spot for him.

I just can't imagine why else Collins would be on the sidelines.

Two words, quality depth. He'll be taking nearly every rep at LT that Andrew doesn't. Injuries are bound to happen but maybe we can at least keep an injury from happening to our best player if we dedicate two good players to protecting his blindside.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 06:34 PM
Try to understand what the bengals are trying to do before you think you are right. They are trying to run the ball. Whitworth is too big of a LG to do that. You need a guy that runs a around a 5.00 40. Like i've said previously. Since the end of the season. Whitworth is also to tall for LG. At 6'7" he gets infront of Palmers line of sight. DO THE MATH!!!!!

That prevents the bengals offense from doing a lot of plays. They can't do certain running plays and they can't do certain pass plays because of this. The reason why the T being 6'7" is not a problem is because they are usually Parallel to the quarterback, forming the pocket.

Yes, they can design play around it, but if the quarterback can't throw 5 - 10 yard passes to the left side of the field, this can become a problem especially when you play 3-4 teams. Have you ever wondered why Chad doesn't run short passes and Houshmandzadeh does? Bingo!!

:lol:

It's not like the linemen are standing anywhere near fully erect while blocking. While being tall is certainly helpful to a QB if what you're submitting here were true then Drew Brees would be anatomically unable to play the position at all. In reality, Drew is a pro bowler, all 5 feet 10 inches of him.

battey60
05-19-2009, 06:39 PM
Two words, quality depth. He'll be taking nearly every rep at LT that Andrew doesn't. Injuries are bound to happen but maybe we can at least keep an injury from happening to our best player if we dedicate two good players to protecting his blindside.


He played well in his first game and Blanked the Steelers. I would say that is pretty good for a rookie. 5.5 sacks in 10 games for a rookie is honestly not that good.

Like I said though I appreciate the line being Locked down now. Its going to be a long year and these guys better get it together now. I liked Livings at LG, I think that this Lineup honestly is the best for the run game.

Marvin must really want to get back to the run this year. We have some guys that will maul some people in the run.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 06:51 PM
He played well in his first game and Blanked the Steelers. I would say that is pretty good for a rookie. 5.5 sacks in 10 games for a rookie is honestly not that good.

Like I said though I appreciate the line being Locked down now. Its going to be a long year and these guys better get it together now. I liked Livings at LG, I think that this Lineup honestly is the best for the run game.

Marvin must really want to get back to the run this year. We have some guys that will maul some people in the run.

Perhaps Collins is a touch better with the pass blocking, but if he is, it probably ain't by much. If Whit is solid vs. the pass which I think he will be, and clearly the better run blocker, I think it's a no brainer who the starter should be.

battey60
05-19-2009, 06:54 PM
Perhaps Collins is a touch better with the pass blocking, but if he is, it probably ain't by much. If Whit is solid vs. the pass which I think he will be, and clearly the better run blocker, I think it's a no brainer who the starter should be.



Your right. I am Certain that this is the best lineup for us to get back to the run. Wasn't Livings in there when Benson got all those yards? I mean I know the defenses we faced were pretty weak but I know he really excelled in the run game.

Makes sense if that is what we are going to. Looks like Game clock football this year. Don't look for too many deep balls. Unless Carson is developing a secret weapon. The Play-action :ninja:

OSUfan
05-19-2009, 06:59 PM
Your right. I am Certain that this is the best lineup for us to get back to the run. Wasn't Livings in there when Benson got all those yards? I mean I know the defenses we faced were pretty weak but I know he really excelled in the run game.

Makes sense if that is what we are going to. Looks like Game clock football this year. Don't look for too many deep balls. Unless Carson is developing a secret weapon. The Play-action :ninja:

I do not think I would agree with this. A consistent running game will most certainly open the field up for this team.

savagehenry54
05-19-2009, 07:02 PM
Your right. I am Certain that this is the best lineup for us to get back to the run. Wasn't Livings in there when Benson got all those yards? I mean I know the defenses we faced were pretty weak but I know he really excelled in the run game.

Makes sense if that is what we are going to. Looks like Game clock football this year. Don't look for too many deep balls. Unless Carson is developing a secret weapon. The Play-action :ninja:

Another thing to consider, on the slower developing pass plays, they can max protect and slide a back over to Whit's side if he's playing one of those game plan changing type DE's. Not really anything they can do to make Collins better than Whit at firing off the ball and opening holes for the run game. One of them is superior to the other in that aspect and as you mentioned I also would suspect that Whit is the stronger of the two in that reguard.

bfine32
05-19-2009, 07:19 PM
I think most posters on here (myself included) base the intelligence of the coaching staff on whether or not the moves they make are in compliance with the posters wishes. If Marv would have came out today and said Smith and Collins are our OTs for as long as he is coach, there would be many complaining why are we wasting Whit at Guard..

battey60
05-19-2009, 07:39 PM
I do not think I would agree with this. A consistent running game will most certainly open the field up for this team.


It may open it up too a point. It would open it up to 2006 form. But we would still not be the gamechanging team we were in 2005 because we do not have the pass blockers for that.

Thats okay its pretty much is what I thought our team would be like this year. Ball control, ball control. Pound it with Benson, Pound it with Leonard. Defense gets the ball back quickly and we are right back to where we need to be. Sounds fine to me and that will win games.

More I think about it the more I am beggining to like the move.

McC
05-19-2009, 08:00 PM
Missing from the field was J. Johnson........(probably still at the chow hall) ! Could it be shades of Sam Adams working out by himself just to get in shape to get out on the field? Just wondered.

I have a problem with JJ doing this, even if Marvin doesn't. Who cares that you have a personal trainer? Get your butt here with the rest of your team and work out here, even if you have you bring your own guy with you. Personal trainers are for Hollywood actresses or people lacking the discipline to keep themselves in shape. I had 11% body fat at the age of 50 and the only personal trainer I had was me. And nobody was paying me a dime to stay in shape. (BTW, I'm now 54 and not the guy I was. I put on 10 pounds in the past few years).

Anyway, I just think that these sessions are crucial to any team's success, and probably this team more than most. Does JJ want to be on this team or not? Wouldn't he, of all people, insist on being here? Get in shape in your spare time. Get your giant behind out on that field and take advantage of the opportunity you've been given and prove your worth to the team giving you another chance. There's a lot of new to learn. Be here learning it with everybody else so no one has to stop and show your selfish a-s later

Really, the truth probably is that Marvin signed him as a just in case and he will have little chance of beating out either of the rookies. He WAS a good player. That was a while ago. I'm expecting nothing from him. I just don't get him at all.

clevelandbengalsfan
05-19-2009, 08:02 PM
i guess they want a more experienced tackle at LT than collins or smith i don't mind it livings and collins both did well last year and i knew only one of them would start this year. collins will develop behind whit and take over in a couple of years good depth. i have faith in this line livings is probably barely ahead of mathis and luigs but luigs may need a year to develop

OLINE roster behind starters

luigs collins mathis koos/roland if nine
luigs collins mathis koos and roland if ten

Skyblade
05-19-2009, 08:06 PM
Try to understand what the bengals are trying to do before you think you are right. They are trying to run the ball. Whitworth is too big of a LG to do that. You need a guy that runs a around a 5.00 40. Like i've said previously. Since the end of the season. Whitworth is also to tall for LG. At 6'7" he gets infront of Palmers line of sight. DO THE MATH!!!!!

That prevents the bengals offense from doing a lot of plays. They can't do certain running plays and they can't do certain pass plays because of this. The reason why the T being 6'7" is not a problem is because they are usually Parallel to the quarterback, forming the pocket.

Yes, they can design play around it, but if the quarterback can't throw 5 - 10 yard passes to the left side of the field, this can become a problem especially when you play 3-4 teams. Have you ever wondered why Chad doesn't run short passes and Houshmandzadeh does? Bingo!!
Nate Livings is 6-5 335, Whit is 6-7 330... What was that about math?
Really the best option for a pulling G is Collins or Luigs. While I could see a line-up of Whit-Luigs-Cook-Williams-Smith, your argument for Livings over Whit is completely inaccurate. I'd rather see our best players on the field, and that is better accomplished with Collins-Whit-Cook-Williams-Smith. Whit has experience and pro-bowl potential at LG. Collins has more recent experience at LT and played well. I don't see why we should move them both around...

As for the coaches; did you guys watch two years ago when Rudi stunk it up? We kept him in despite him clearly being the worst RB on the team, I called that in the off-season. Or last year when we kept Perry in despite him being absolutely terrible. Or franchising S. Andrews, or franchising J.Smith. Really the list of poor personnel decisions is quite long for this team.

P.S: Housh ran short patterns because that's his forte, he ran them on both the right and left side. Chad ran longer patterns because that's his forte. He ran them from both the left and the right.

Mr. Cinister
05-19-2009, 08:27 PM
While I can't say that I'm completely okay with Whit at LT over Collins, I will add that I believe Andrew is more than capable of doing a fine job, though. Amidst the chaos of last year, Whit began his rise as a leader. Remember the remarks of his speech to the team about not letting teams come in here thinking they can push them around. That is the fighting spirit someone protecting Carson needs. Whit plays more and more aggressive each year, really getting down to almost straight wrestling the man across from him. And let's not forget Whit hasn't had a full year training at LT. Give him a chance and if he stinks after that, the doubt will be deserved.

I'd prefer Collins overall, but I DO have faith in Whit.

WHO_DEY_51
05-19-2009, 08:55 PM
How tall is Nate Livings? :wink:

He is 6'5".

bfine32
05-19-2009, 09:04 PM
:lol:

It's not like the linemen are standing anywhere near fully erect while blocking. While being tall is certainly helpful to a QB if what you're submitting here were true then Drew Brees would be anatomically unable to play the position at all. In reality, Drew is a pro bowler, all 5 feet 10 inches of him.

I hate it when linemen stand fully erect,

eric NY
05-19-2009, 09:08 PM
I said this in another thread, but this doesn't sound anything like Marvin. After the draft he wouldn't say a word about where he wanted to play Andre. Now after one OTA mini practice and without ever using a different alignment he's going to say that this is his line for the rest of the time he's coaching here? I can't help but think he was joking...Hobson said "So is this the line we're going to see opening day?" and he said "Oh yeah, Geoff. This is going to be the line for the rest of my career. You go ahead and quote me on that. *snicker*"

WHO_DEY_51
05-19-2009, 09:42 PM
:lol:

It's not like the linemen are standing anywhere near fully erect while blocking. While being tall is certainly helpful to a QB if what you're submitting here were true then Drew Brees would be anatomically unable to play the position at all. In reality, Drew is a pro bowler, all 5 feet 10 inches of him.

I knew you were going to come back with this weak argument. It shows your lack of football knowledge. 1) Drew Brees is an exception and he still hasn't been close to the Super Bowl.
2) Plays can be designed for a QB. Bootleg passes, bigger drop-backs, long passes, and etc.
3) Why limit your team to long passes when your QB can throw short passes.
4) I know the offensive lineman do not stand fully erect, but where are the eyes on a QB? In the middle of their head. That's at least 2 inches lower than their total height. So, a 6'7" offensive guard would be 6'3" in a football stance, whereas a 6'5" QB would be at 6'2". When a QB throws, he is not fully erect. He bends his knee, especially Palmer.
5) Livings is 6'5". Bending he would be 6'1" inches tall. That means Palmer's eyes are one inch above the top of his helmet.
6) Palmer is a pocket passer. He does not move. So, if he can't see, he has to wait for the reciever before he can throw the ball.

Every NFL GM refrains from the short QBs because they can't see over the offensive line. Look at Fitzpatrick, how many times did his throws get knocked down?

CaptainCanada
05-19-2009, 10:13 PM
I knew you were going to come back with this weak argument. It shows your lack of football knowledge. 1) Drew Brees is an exception and he still hasn't been close to the Super Bowl.
2) Plays can be designed for a QB. Bootleg passes, bigger drop-backs, long passes, and etc.
3) Why limit your team to long passes when your QB can throw short passes.
4) I know the offensive lineman do not stand fully erect, but where are the eyes on a QB? In the middle of their head. That's at least 2 inches lower than their total height. So, a 6'7" offensive guard would be 6'3" in a football stance, whereas a 6'5" QB would be at 6'2". When a QB throws, he is not fully erect. He bends his knee, especially Palmer.
5) Livings is 6'5". Bending he would be 6'1" inches tall. That means Palmer's eyes are one inch above the top of his helmet.
6) Palmer is a pocket passer. He does not move. So, if he can't see, he has to wait for the reciever before he can throw the ball.

Every NFL GM refrains from the short QBs because they can't see over the offensive line. Look at Fitzpatrick, how many times did his throws get knocked down?

You sound like a guy who specializes in measuring NFL players. How many inches tall would the eyes be if Palmer were to be on one knee? :lol:

tenacious-B
05-19-2009, 10:57 PM
I love it, having Whitworth protecting Carson's blindside is just what a guy like Whit is supposed to be doing. He's a passionate beast and I guarantee he's going to fight tooth and nail before he let's anyone touch his QB.

I also love having another monster at RT again. Andre is going to allow for Ced to go for over 1300 yards this season. Andre also plays with a mean streak, so he's going to knock the crap out of a lot of guys this season.

Kudos, Marvin, I feel a lot better about our O-line this season.

fumetti
05-19-2009, 11:06 PM
Oh I just watched Whit play LT in the game against Philadelphia last year and he really played bad.

I don't understand the love for Whit at LT. He just looked bad. Missed a lot of blocks.

But when in at LG, he played well.

I don't get this lineup. Collins looked very good late last year.

fumetti
05-19-2009, 11:12 PM
Philly can make a lot of teams look bad. Did you see what they did to the Steelers?

Compare the first half to the second (or before Whit at LT to after). Cincy scored their only TD with Whit at LT. Got only a FG after... and could't score a single point in the last 2.5 quarters of play.

We had success before the switch, and none after.

Skyblade
05-19-2009, 11:13 PM
I knew you were going to come back with this weak argument. It shows your lack of football knowledge. 1) Drew Brees is an exception and he still hasn't been close to the Super Bowl.
2) Plays can be designed for a QB. Bootleg passes, bigger drop-backs, long passes, and etc.
3) Why limit your team to long passes when your QB can throw short passes.
4) I know the offensive lineman do not stand fully erect, but where are the eyes on a QB? In the middle of their head. That's at least 2 inches lower than their total height. So, a 6'7" offensive guard would be 6'3" in a football stance, whereas a 6'5" QB would be at 6'2". When a QB throws, he is not fully erect. He bends his knee, especially Palmer.
5) Livings is 6'5". Bending he would be 6'1" inches tall. That means Palmer's eyes are one inch above the top of his helmet.
6) Palmer is a pocket passer. He does not move. So, if he can't see, he has to wait for the reciever before he can throw the ball.

Every NFL GM refrains from the short QBs because they can't see over the offensive line. Look at Fitzpatrick, how many times did his throws get knocked down?

1) Brees shows that you look for gaps in the O-line, not look over them. Whether the QB is 6-5 or 5-10.
2) Bigger drop-backs does not make the QB taller, it increases the amount he can loft the ball to get it over the D-line.
3) If you can't see a player for short passes, you can't see him for long passes either. Deep passes would be favorable because you can loft the ball more, and get it over the D-line...Which is completely irrelevant.
6) Palmer is fully capable of taking a step to the side, which is really all that would be needed.

Fitz's throws got knocked down because he is short, and the D-linemen are tall. This is completely irrelevant to your argument about O-linemen height.

Yes QB height does matter, but it is really more about balls getting knocked down then ability to see. Palmer's line of sight would be blocked by a helmet if anything, and that wouldn't cut out a large amount of vision. Really even if the O-lineman were 6-9 or 6-10 I don't think it would be a huge worry.

The main concern with QB height is the inability to get the ball over tall D-linemen. Palmer is tall enough that he doesn't need to worry about that. He is also tall enough that he can see over virtually any O-lineman, or if his sight is blocked by anything it will just be the top of a helmet.

Dricis
05-19-2009, 11:14 PM
I see where people are coming from with whit being the starting tackle, but I think almost everyone agrees they placed smith in the right place. I personally feel that whit will do fine at LT, but to you who disagree, dont forget that collins is the immediate back up, so if whit does struggle, collins can be brought in and we're only changing one spot on the o-line. If he were the starting LG, you'd be replacing 2, and neither guy would have practice at that spot for the week because it would most likely be a whit-collins flip flop. Like it or not, this does seem to be well thought out. I'm much more curious to see how the center position plays out now that the rest of the line is basically set, though I could still see a battle at LG brewing.

BigJohnWC
05-20-2009, 11:22 AM
For those on this thread up-in-arms and wanting Collins as the starting LT, here's an interesting comment from Ludwig's blog this morning:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/chickludwig/
"ANTHONY COLLINS

I’ve been told by numerous scouts and NFL insiders that he’s the kind of guy who needs to be put in a competitive situation.

Like a lot of guys, if you hand them a job, they’ll dump on you … and not throw you any toilet paper."

Now, take that for what you will ... I won't say it's fact or fiction. However, it does at least open up thought that Collins will excel best (and learn that he can excel) when he's competing for playing time at any position, and will make certain he SHINES when he gets chances to play.

If that's the case, then he's the ideal guy to have backing up our two talented OTs! (giving A. Smith credit for talent, yes .. now, how he uses that talent will be up for debate during the season).

WHO DEY!

WHO_DEY_51
05-20-2009, 12:09 PM
1) Brees shows that you look for gaps in the O-line, not look over them. Whether the QB is 6-5 or 5-10.
2) Bigger drop-backs does not make the QB taller, it increases the amount he can loft the ball to get it over the D-line.
3) If you can't see a player for short passes, you can't see him for long passes either. Deep passes would be favorable because you can loft the ball more, and get it over the D-line...Which is completely irrelevant.
6) Palmer is fully capable of taking a step to the side, which is really all that would be needed.

Fitz's throws got knocked down because he is short, and the D-linemen are tall. This is completely irrelevant to your argument about O-linemen height.

Yes QB height does matter, but it is really more about balls getting knocked down then ability to see. Palmer's line of sight would be blocked by a helmet if anything, and that wouldn't cut out a large amount of vision. Really even if the O-lineman were 6-9 or 6-10 I don't think it would be a huge worry.

The main concern with QB height is the inability to get the ball over tall D-linemen. Palmer is tall enough that he doesn't need to worry about that. He is also tall enough that he can see over virtually any O-lineman, or if his sight is blocked by anything it will just be the top of a helmet.

How many lineman Gs/Cs are taller than 6'5". Why might that be? All the other people taller than 6'5" go play basketball, but 90% of players taller than 6'5" play T in the NFL. You still think it is a coincidence? There is a reason for that an it's not that their isn't enough football players. These players are sorted out through high school and college, and when they get to the Pro level, the 6'5" players play G/C and the taller play T. I will tell you one of the reason to play a tall T is because of their long arms. Why not the same for G/C? Why not get all the 6'7" guys possible?

A QB like Palmer needs to be able to see the whole defense and offense. If you have obstacle standing in his way, then his potential is simply prevented. You said it yourself, that Drew Brees looks through gaps in his lineman WHY force Palmer to look through gaps? You see the difference? What is better for the team? Brees is the reason the Saints are good, so ofcourse they are going to make exceptions for them. But making exceptions for yourself, as in you, to keep Whitworth at LG in the expense of Palmer's potential is dumb and stupid.

You telling me that Palmer is better off with people in his vision, where he has to look through gaps in the lineman? If you say, "No", then you have to agree with me because you said that's what Brees does. Looks through gaps. By the way, Brees is 6'0", not 5'10". BIG difference.

But backing up farther you can see higher. that's why images farther away look smaller.

WHO_DEY_51
05-20-2009, 12:12 PM
You sound like a guy who specializes in measuring NFL players. How many inches tall would the eyes be if Palmer were to be on one knee? :lol:

I'm an engineer. Of course i specialize in numbers. I also know that size matters. Maybe you should check into that with your girlfriend. lol j/k.

Hammerstripes
05-20-2009, 12:18 PM
I knew you were going to come back with this weak argument. It shows your lack of football knowledge. 1) Drew Brees is an exception and he still hasn't been close to the Super Bowl.
2) Plays can be designed for a QB. Bootleg passes, bigger drop-backs, long passes, and etc.
3) Why limit your team to long passes when your QB can throw short passes.
4) I know the offensive lineman do not stand fully erect, but where are the eyes on a QB? In the middle of their head. That's at least 2 inches lower than their total height. So, a 6'7" offensive guard would be 6'3" in a football stance, whereas a 6'5" QB would be at 6'2". When a QB throws, he is not fully erect. He bends his knee, especially Palmer.
5) Livings is 6'5". Bending he would be 6'1" inches tall. That means Palmer's eyes are one inch above the top of his helmet.
6) Palmer is a pocket passer. He does not move. So, if he can't see, he has to wait for the reciever before he can throw the ball.

Every NFL GM refrains from the short QBs because they can't see over the offensive line. Look at Fitzpatrick, how many times did his throws get knocked down?

Not to nitpick, but the Saints were in the NFC championship with Brees a couple years ago.

Looking back on the draft, does anybody wish we would have drafted an OG? Had I known that Whit was moving to tackle, I would have liked to seen somebody brought in to compete for a starting spot vs. the undrafted guy. I hope that everything I saw from Livings in the run game is legit. EVERYBODY knew we were running the ball with Fitz at QB and we still racked up some yards.

busamboy
05-20-2009, 12:20 PM
He played well in his first game and Blanked the Steelers. I would say that is pretty good for a rookie. 5.5 sacks in 10 games for a rookie is honestly not that good.

Like I said though I appreciate the line being Locked down now. Its going to be a long year and these guys better get it together now. I liked Livings at LG, I think that this Lineup honestly is the best for the run game.

Marvin must really want to get back to the run this year. We have some guys that will maul some people in the run.

That is damn good for a player that wasn't even thinking about playing tackle on the field. I know he wasn't playing tackle until an injury happened, but still. They had him ready for 2 positions. He wasn't the first overall pick, so you give up a couple of extra sacks only getting what was the 5-6 best OT in that draft. Nobody thought he would have to play that early, he was supposed to get some reps as a backup and maybe begin starting about now, but he was better than expected and stepped up huge whereever he was needed. Now he finally has time to actually breathe at a position and actually learn all the technique instead of the play calls and what he is supposed to do. he has an entire offseason of watching film to actually watch the players that gave him problems. He doesn't have to worry about what position am I playing this week.

That in itself is a huge upgrade at the LT spot

far away bengal
05-20-2009, 12:31 PM
I said this in another thread, but this doesn't sound anything like Marvin. After the draft he wouldn't say a word about where he wanted to play Andre. Now after one OTA mini practice and without ever using a different alignment he's going to say that this is his line for the rest of the time he's coaching here? I can't help but think he was joking...Hobson said "So is this the line we're going to see opening day?" and he said "Oh yeah, Geoff. This is going to be the line for the rest of my career. You go ahead and quote me on that. *snicker*"

Yup

This is something that made me scratch my head. Did he really mean it?? I think is premature to know the lineup already.

If he really meant it, then what I think is that they're going to commit to this lineup to see if it works better than any other. It is better for training camp and the chemistry to have the mind set on what you want to do and just go for it.

But I have no doubt that if at some point it doesn't work, especially if it happens sooner than later, they'll try other options.

eliminate08
05-20-2009, 01:59 PM
First thing i think of when i look at this O-line is the run blocking.

Benson will have a great year behind this line. Andre is a dominant run blocker, Livings is
a better pulling Guard than Whit. We will see how Whit handles blocking the speed pass
rushers though, that is one of my concerns.

I like Cook, from what i have heard and what i am hearing now he is strong and intelligent
at the same time. This is what we need in the Center position.

I also love the fact they are saying this is it. No messing around, this is the line. Now lets
get that chemistry down and we are set. :rock on:

savagehenry54
05-20-2009, 02:42 PM
Yup

This is something that made me scratch my head. Did he really mean it?? I think is premature to know the lineup already.

If he really meant it, then what I think is that they're going to commit to this lineup to see if it works better than any other. It is better for training camp and the chemistry to have the mind set on what you want to do and just go for it.

But I have no doubt that if at some point it doesn't work, especially if it happens sooner than later, they'll try other options.

Yea if it's not working they'll have to try other things. I think Marvin's statement speaks to the fact that like everyone else, he knows this O-Line will make or break him this year. If it plays well, this team probably makes the playoffs easily. If not, we'll stink.

He's committing to the best line this team can put out there with the personnel they have. That's the only way to do it. Remains to be seen if Collins is a better Tackle than Cook is a Center, but being that Collins don't play Center that makes it a moot point. Plus as dependent as this team is on Palmer, I like that if our starting LT gets hurt we have a guy behind him that can step right in and do the job.

Any other alignment would require shuffling of the line if Collins were the starter and got hurt, Whitworth or maybe Smith would have to jump in on the fly after taking their practice reps at a different position. I think having a capable and prepared plan B for Carson's blindside is a prudent move.

Munchkin
05-20-2009, 03:46 PM
I don't like this "set in stone" stuff at all...

Why go to such lengths? Just say the job is theirs to loose.

What happens now if Andre Smith / Withworth get mentally distracted for what ever personal reason..?
(this is more for Smith than Whit.. See his agent shuffle game if you don't know what I'm talking about...)

What if Collins outplays them by a wide margin?
What if any of our other Tackles outplays one of them by a wide margin?

I don't get this call at all...

OSUfan
05-20-2009, 03:52 PM
I don't like this "set in stone" stuff at all...

Why go to such lengths? Just say the job is theirs to loose.

What happens now if Andre Smith / Withworth get mentally distracted for what ever personal reason..?
(this is more for Smith than Whit.. See his agent shuffle game if you don't know what I'm talking about...)

What if Collins outplays them by a wide margin?
What if any of our other Tackles outplays one of them by a wide margin?

I don't get this call at all...

This call was made because of the chaos that was created last season by not setting a line and letting them practice together and gain the chemistry that is ABSOLUTELY crucial to the execution by an O-Line. I for one applaud them for making this decision and getting things rolling.

While we all like to think that we know whom is best at this and that for the team, the truth is we see very little of these guys in the course of a season. This staff works with them in all kinds of drills and workouts. They are watching their every move in shorts and in pads. I do not think these decisions were made lightly, but were done after much due diligence by this staff. Yes, I think Collins played very well for this team down the stretch, but I also do not see him every single day in practices like the guys that actually know about football and what it takes to play it at this level do.

I think this is going to be great for this line and I hope they settle on LG very quickly as well. Get these things set and lets go to work.

BengalHawk62
05-20-2009, 05:54 PM
Thru my pessimistic sunglasses, I can see Andre Smith holding out till around mid camp and completely ruin any kind of chemistry this line will have built up. But on the bright side, we do have Collins who could step in if nessasary. I'm so glad we drafted Whit a few years back. I remember thinking, that's exactly the kind of player we need for this team. Its starting to look like he maybe fullfilling his expected hype. I wish i can say I have the same amount of optimism for 'dre Smith. I'm withholding all reservations for a while, but with all this talk of agent jockeying, etc with the young guy, its got me pretty nervous about our #6 pick. However looking at the coin on the opposite side, I can also see him grow into the role, with a few bumps along the way, and become a staple along the o-line for years to come. Lets just get him signed and into camp first. I'm keeping my fingers crossed anyways.....
Also looking at our center position, I'm mildly optimistic with our prospects. I think Cook is going to surprise a lot of folks. and Luigs is going to beat out Santucci for the back up position. Cook's injury history is the only think I feel a little hesitant on. But the coaches really do seem pretty high on his strength and abilities, which is all I need to know.

eliminate08
05-20-2009, 06:25 PM
Thru my pessimistic sunglasses, I can see Andre Smith holding out till around mid camp and completely ruin any kind of chemistry this line will have built up. But on the bright side, we do have Collins who could step in if nessasary. I'm so glad we drafted Whit a few years back. I remember thinking, that's exactly the kind of player we need for this team. Its starting to look like he maybe fullfilling his expected hype. I wish i can say I have the same amount of optimism for 'dre Smith. I'm withholding all reservations for a while, but with all this talk of agent jockeying, etc with the young guy, its got me pretty nervous about our #6 pick. However looking at the coin on the opposite side, I can also see him grow into the role, with a few bumps along the way, and become a staple along the o-line for years to come. Lets just get him signed and into camp first. I'm keeping my fingers crossed anyways.....
Also looking at our center position, I'm mildly optimistic with our prospects. I think Cook is going to surprise a lot of folks. and Luigs is going to beat out Santucci for the back up position. Cook's injury history is the only think I feel a little hesitant on. But the coaches really do seem pretty high on his strength and abilities, which is all I need to know.


Nice post. I just hope Bobbie and Whit talk to Andre about this to get him on the field
sooner than later. Hopefully Andre picked the agent he believes will get a quicker better
deal for him so he can get signed before training camp.

It is very nice though to have Collins to backup either Andre or Whit since he did play RT
in college before playing LT.

Munchkin
05-20-2009, 06:47 PM
This call was made because of the chaos that was created last season by not setting a line and letting them practice together and gain the chemistry that is ABSOLUTELY crucial to the execution by an O-Line. I for one applaud them for making this decision and getting things rolling.

While we all like to think that we know whom is best at this and that for the team, the truth is we see very little of these guys in the course of a season. This staff works with them in all kinds of drills and workouts. They are watching their every move in shorts and in pads. I do not think these decisions were made lightly, but were done after much due diligence by this staff. Yes, I think Collins played very well for this team down the stretch, but I also do not see him every single day in practices like the guys that actually know about football and what it takes to play it at this level do.

I think this is going to be great for this line and I hope they settle on LG very quickly as well. Get these things set and lets go to work.

No where in my post did I pretend to know more about the lines.
I absolutely don't.

But what I do know is players change/develop/regress..
Some take sudden leaps in development while others just one day loose their hunger for winning / their love for the game.

Marvin is painting him self in to a corner with a comment like this.
He'll look like a fool if another Tackle emerges that pushes one of these guys down the depth chart.

What will he then say? "Umm.. *giggle* guess it wasn't as much set in stone as it was formed in to a soft mushy piece of clay that can be reshaped again... unless you bake it in an oven... ...we didn't quite get around to baking it yet you see..."

I'm sure you all know what I mean.

incarsonwetrust9
05-20-2009, 07:04 PM
1.imo is not looking good
.
________
Colorado dispensaries (http://colorado.dispensaries.org/)

eliminate08
05-20-2009, 07:09 PM
No where in my post did I pretend to know more about the lines.
I absolutely don't.

But what I do know is players change/develop/regress..
Some take sudden leaps in development while others just one day loose their hunger for winning / their love for the game.

Marvin is painting him self in to a corner with a comment like this.
He'll look like a fool if another Tackle emerges that pushes one of these guys down the depth chart.

What will he then say? "Umm.. *giggle* guess it wasn't as much set in stone as it was formed in to a soft mushy piece of clay that can be reshaped again... unless you bake it in an oven... ...we didn't quite get around to baking it yet you see..."

I'm sure you all know what I mean.

I get what you are saying.

I think Marv has alot of faith in Whit and Andre at the tackle spots with Collins backing
them up. Sounds alot better than what we have had the last year or so with the old guys.

Willie was getting up there and Levi had no knees. Andrews was just terrible and i am glad
he is gone.

I feel alot better about the O-line situation when Marvin comes out and has this much faith
in some of the players, actually.Mellow

Meatpie
05-20-2009, 07:13 PM
ok

Myrtle Beach Bengal
05-20-2009, 07:16 PM
1.imo is not looking good
.

Why isn't it looking good? Please expand on your statement a little more so we can discuss it.

SunsetBengal
05-20-2009, 07:18 PM
Idk, looks like a solid group of starters, with some really good backups. This current OL lineup should be able to open good holes to establish the run, and effectively protect Carson for the pass. If Whit, or Smith should falter at T, then just plug in Anthony Collins, we already know that he is up to the task. I'm sure as time goes by, Luigs will earn his way into some playing time, great guys never sit the bench for long.

BTW, you create your very own thread, and that's all you have to say to open it? WTF?

Treee
05-20-2009, 07:27 PM
The 2 most important things for an Oline is communication and playing nasty. It sounds to me like our new Oline exibits these two traits. From what I've read Cook is very communicative and interactive with the line making sure they play in unison, from which I've also read Guichec wasn't so good at that. I think that this line will be at the worst mediocre.

momadance02
05-20-2009, 07:44 PM
ok

:lol:

TCMas45
05-20-2009, 07:52 PM
1.imo is not looking good
.

:huh: This one went way over my head! Elaborate a bit further, please!!:

rob66
05-20-2009, 07:58 PM
The 2 most important things for an Oline is communication and playing nasty. It sounds to me like our new Oline exibits these two traits. From what I've read Cook is very communicative and interactive with the line making sure they play in unison, from which I've also read Guichec wasn't so good at that. I think that this line will be at the worst mediocre.
I really hope you are right, I remember last year and how they were working out together in the off season and all the hype and we had th worst year please don't get me wrong I believe in this team, but you how it is being a bengal fan I think they will get it done just don't want anymore disappointments :tiger::tiger::rock on::tiger::cool:

Metalhead
05-20-2009, 08:05 PM
1.imo is not looking good
.

you forgot to add more numbers to your numbered list :smirk:

I really wish they would leave the tackles at tackle and the guards at guard, because it just seems the more logical thing to do to me, so Whitworth can continue his solid play. However, I will reserve my judgement because when it comes to the O-line I'm pretty clueless.

crazyjdawg
05-20-2009, 08:05 PM
1.imo is not looking good
.

woah! Slow down! You're traveling a mile a minute!

SleepyGT
05-20-2009, 08:07 PM
you forgot to add more numbers to your numbered list :smirk:

I really wish they would leave the tackles at tackle and the guards at guard, because it just seems the more logical thing to do to me, so Whitworth can continue his solid play. However, I will reserve my judgement because when it comes to the O-line I'm pretty clueless.

Whit was a LT in college at LSU. From what I've read he started 52 college games at LT and only gave up 1 sack. I'm speculating here, but maybe he was put at guard to get some playing time. We were fairly solid at tackle position up until last year with Willie and Levi

OSUfan
05-20-2009, 08:32 PM
you forgot to add more numbers to your numbered list :smirk:

I really wish they would leave the tackles at tackle and the guards at guard, because it just seems the more logical thing to do to me, so Whitworth can continue his solid play. However, I will reserve my judgement because when it comes to the O-line I'm pretty clueless.

What makes Whitworth a guard and not a tackle?

OSUfan
05-20-2009, 08:35 PM
I really hope you are right, I remember last year and how they were working out together in the off season and all the hype and we had th worst year please don't get me wrong I believe in this team, but you how it is being a bengal fan I think they will get it done just don't want anymore disappointments :tiger::tiger::rock on::tiger::cool:

If you remember last season then you remember that training camp was spent moving players on the line around and experimenting with the "Jurassic" line. Which really did nothing other than hinder the chemistry that is required by an offensive line to execute as a unit. By deciding on these positions early it allows these players to gain that chemistry, as long as they stick to their guns and keep these guys where they have them.

NatiDub
05-20-2009, 08:58 PM
I was reading the article on the main page earlier today and I determined that it is a going to be VERY tough to make any judgments on right now. I mean I won't claim to understand all the differences in still sets etc. between guard and tackle and we have a guard going to tackle and a college LT going to RT, but that makes me a tad nervous.... but again, I know Whit can play tackle and Smith should be a beast when it comes to running... so I dunno.

We will have two guys (Livings and Cook) that haven't started many games between them (none for Cook), but the article is basically saying good things (but I wouldn't expect hobs to say much negative stuff anyways).

I do remember that last year the line looked bad in the pre-season then it looked just as bad in the regular. I think it will take a couple of preseason games to make any kinda of judgment.

ochocinco85
05-20-2009, 09:04 PM
I heard a lot of communication is going on with Kyle Cook which is good. I mean look at the Colts with Jeff Saturday. Their O-Line wasn't the best without Saturday. I want Collins to play. I want it to be like this:

Andre Smith-LT A.Whitworth-LG K.Cook-C B.Williams-RG A.Collins-RT

I really really don't like N.Livings there at LG. I think we could change it around to get the best players on the field. I think it will be ok. Not great but not as bad as last year.

Myrtle Beach Bengal
05-20-2009, 09:05 PM
If you remember last season then you remember that training camp was spent moving players on the line around and experimenting with the "Jurassic" line. Which really did nothing other than hinder the chemistry that is required by an offensive line to execute as a unit. By deciding on these positions early it allows these players to gain that chemistry, as long as they stick to their guns and keep these guys where they have them.

After we saw what happened to the OL last year, it makes you wonder if they knew that the OL wasn't going to be very good. Thats why we kept on moving people around and eventually created the "Jurassic Line."

We should have a better idea as to how our OL is going to play if we keep everyone at the same position or if we spend all training camp moving everyone around. The line looks pretty strong now, lets hope we keep it the way it is now so we can form some kind of chemistry.

OSUfan
05-20-2009, 09:14 PM
I heard a lot of communication is going on with Kyle Cook which is good. I mean look at the Colts with Jeff Saturday. Their O-Line wasn't the best without Saturday. I want Collins to play. I want it to be like this:

Andre Smith-LT A.Whitworth-LG K.Cook-C B.Williams-RG A.Collins-RT

I really really don't like N.Livings there at LG. I think we could change it around to get the best players on the field. I think it will be ok. Not great but not as bad as last year.

So why please elaborate as to why you do not want Livings at LG. Was it because he played terribly over his 6 starts last season? Was it because in starts against Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Indy, and Philly that he only gave up .5 sacks?

How do you know that they line up they have is not the best 5 players? You do realize that the staff works with these guys on a daily basis and see way more of these guys than just on the television on Sundays. I would think that the staff would probably have alittle better insight as to whom the best players on the team are. Wouldn't you think?

Broken1
05-20-2009, 09:21 PM
So why please elaborate as to why you do not want Livings at LG. Was it because he played terribly over his 6 starts last season? Was it because in starts against Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Indy, and Philly that he only gave up .5 sacks?

How do you know that they line up they have is not the best 5 players? You do realize that the staff works with these guys on a daily basis and see way more of these guys than just on the television on Sundays. I would think that the staff would probably have alittle better insight as to whom the best players on the team are. Wouldn't you think?

I've seen you make this same argument numerous times. This staff sure doesn't have to do much to earn your confidence does it? Yeah, they work with these guys everyday, and this team fails miserably every year. Now, I'm not one to try to put two and two together, but it seems to me that sometimes these guys don't have a flipping clue about what they're doing, or talking about. If they did, maybe, just maybe, we would have more than one season above .500 in the past almost two decades.

goalpost
05-20-2009, 09:41 PM
1.imo is not looking good
.

I actually think there is some hope here. :what:

AGking
05-20-2009, 10:33 PM
1.imo is not looking good
.

Since the OP didn't elaborate, I will try for him.

Last year's starters were: L. Jones, Whitworth, Ghiaciuc, Williams, Andrews

Since they were the starters, apparently the coaches felt they were the best players we had at those positions. How good were they last year?? I believe every person on here would agree that they were pretty horrible.

So if they were horrible with a pro-bowl LT and Andrews, a guy I didn't like but people on here were high on, then how will they be with the backups that weren't even as good as they were???

Whitworth is going to LT. He has played LT when Levi was hurt, but he also wasn't exactly an All-Pro at that position (please don't give me College stats, this is the NFL now). Is he better than Levi was? Maybe. Maybe not. The point is, we don't know.

What we all can agree on, is that Whit was pretty good at LG. So if thats the case, then we are now weaker at LG with Livings there. To make my point, if we started Collins and A. Smith at tackle, would you rather have Whit or Livings at LG?

While we all agree that Ghiaciuc was not good at center, apparently he was better than Cook. Regardless, Cook has ZERO NFL snaps, so no one can say for certain whether he will be good or not. Another unknown.

Williams still at RG. I think he is the only constant we have with this line. But can you say this is better? No. It is the same as last year.

And at RT we have a rookie. I don't care how many youtube videos you have watched or scouts you have heard, the fact of the matter is, A. Smith is a rookie and we don't know anything about him. How can one possibly say this is an upgrade?

The point being, we are weaker at LG, we have a rookie at RT, a center with zero NFL snaps, and the same RG as last year.

You tell me where the "upgrade" is.

Munchkin
05-21-2009, 03:45 AM
I get what you are saying.

I think Marv has alot of faith in Whit and Andre at the tackle spots with Collins backing
them up. Sounds alot better than what we have had the last year or so with the old guys.

Willie was getting up there and Levi had no knees. Andrews was just terrible and i am glad
he is gone.

I feel alot better about the O-line situation when Marvin comes out and has this much faith
in some of the players, actually.Mellow

Yeah.. I guess they've seen a whole bunch on Whit that the rest of us have not..
And Collins has done a whole bunch of bad things that we've not seen for there to be NO competition at LT.

bengaldefense
05-21-2009, 12:25 PM
Since the OP didn't elaborate, I will try for him.

Last year's starters were: L. Jones, Whitworth, Ghiaciuc, Williams, Andrews

Since they were the starters, apparently the coaches felt they were the best players we had at those positions. How good were they last year?? I believe every person on here would agree that they were pretty horrible.

So if they were horrible with a pro-bowl LT and Andrews, a guy I didn't like but people on here were high on, then how will they be with the backups that weren't even as good as they were???

Whitworth is going to LT. He has played LT when Levi was hurt, but he also wasn't exactly an All-Pro at that position (please don't give me College stats, this is the NFL now). Is he better than Levi was? Maybe. Maybe not. The point is, we don't know.

What we all can agree on, is that Whit was pretty good at LG. So if thats the case, then we are now weaker at LG with Livings there. To make my point, if we started Collins and A. Smith at tackle, would you rather have Whit or Livings at LG?

While we all agree that Ghiaciuc was not good at center, apparently he was better than Cook. Regardless, Cook has ZERO NFL snaps, so no one can say for certain whether he will be good or not. Another unknown.

Williams still at RG. I think he is the only constant we have with this line. But can you say this is better? No. It is the same as last year.

And at RT we have a rookie. I don't care how many youtube videos you have watched or scouts you have heard, the fact of the matter is, A. Smith is a rookie and we don't know anything about him. How can one possibly say this is an upgrade?

The point being, we are weaker at LG, we have a rookie at RT, a center with zero NFL snaps, and the same RG as last year.

You tell me where the "upgrade" is.

Agreed the DT's and DE's especially in the AFC north will turn this young inexpierienced O LINE every which way but loose. Do these young players have potential maybe but potential does not protect your QB and win ball games and open holes for your running game.

Paul from Dayton
05-21-2009, 12:35 PM
1.imo is not looking good
.

Don't really need the #1 if thats your only point.

Center can't be any worse as long as the guy has a pulse. Whit can play and at least he'll bust his *** trying, thats more than I can say for Levi. If Whit struggles they can always move him back to LG and bring Collins back in. Smith will be a beast at RT.

BennyBengals
05-21-2009, 12:56 PM
1.imo is not looking good
.

You started a thread to say that with a numbered list of 1... :ninja:

fredtoast
05-21-2009, 01:42 PM
Agreed the DT's and DE's especially in the AFC north will turn this young inexpierienced O LINE every which way but loose. Do these young players have potential maybe but potential does not protect your QB and win ball games and open holes for your running game.

The Ravens started last season with first time starters at BOTH offensive tackle positions and they went to the Conference Championship game.

So much for that argument.

kpetrin
05-21-2009, 01:55 PM
After we saw what happened to the OL last year, it makes you wonder if they knew that the OL wasn't going to be very good. Thats why we kept on moving people around and eventually created the "Jurassic Line."

We should have a better idea as to how our OL is going to play if we keep everyone at the same position or if we spend all training camp moving everyone around. The line looks pretty strong now, lets hope we keep it the way it is now so we can form some kind of chemistry.

I completely agree. Keep the line the way it is now so they can form chemistry. The more pratice they have as a unit the more effective they will be. Change the line around and their will be come communication barriers.

The two positions that might change by opening seasons is the LG or C position. That is if someone outplays Livings or Cook.