Has Whit been callled out yet?

[TrojanPride]

So there's been tons of threads calling out Carson, and a thread dedicated to AC last week after his 2 sack allowed performance against Denver so I thought it was appropriate to at least have a thread discussing Whit's performance on Sunday.

Like AC, he gave up two sacks on back to back plays. The first sack was actually very reminiscent of that play in the New Orleans preseason game that was discussed extensively on these boards. The guy made a move to the inside, Whit wasn't able to move laterally quickly enough and the guy went right passed him.

On the 2nd sack Whit just got abused by Clay Matthews. Clay put a spin move on him and it looked like Whit's feet were stuck in quick sand. I had to a chuckle a bit after that play just because I remembered reading the pre-game expert break-down of the game on the front page and they made it sound like Whit should have no trouble with the rookie.

He also had two holding penalites. I'm not sure if they were on running or passing plays - have to go back and rewatch the game but holding calls typically indicate that the O-lineman was beat by his man.

This game just reminded me of why I was concerned prior to the start of the year about Whit's ability to hand speed rushers at LT. I do believe that Whit did well in run blocking but again I have to watch and see often they ran to that side. But either way I knew he was a good run blocker which is why I advocated him being moved to RT for years.

To be fair Whit played well against Denver and he seemed to get his act together in the 2nd half of the GB game. I certainly don't think that we currently have a better candidate for LT. Still it's something that I think bears close examination as the year progresses. We'll certainly have a good idea pretty quickly here as he faces Harrison and Suggs in the next couple of weeks.

[Slappy from New Haven]

Hot routes......

[1whodeybrew]

So there's been tons of threads calling out Carson, and a thread dedicated to AC last week after his 2 sack allowed performance against Denver so I thought it was appropriate to at least have a thread discussing Whit's performance on Sunday.

Like AC, he gave up two sacks on back to back plays. The first sack was actually very reminiscent of that play in the New Orleans preseason game that was discussed extensively on these boards. The guy made a move to the inside, Whit wasn't able to move laterally quickly enough and the guy went right passed him.

On the 2nd sack Whit just got abused by Clay Matthews. Clay put a spin move on him and it looked like Whit's feet were stuck in quick sand. I had to a chuckle a bit after that play just because I remembered reading the pre-game expert break-down of the game on the front page and they made it sound like Whit should have no trouble with the rookie.

He also had two holding penalites. I'm not sure if they were on running or passing plays - have to go back and rewatch the game but holding calls typically indicate that the O-lineman was beat by his man.

This game just reminded me of why I was concerned prior to the start of the year about Whit's ability to hand speed rushers at LT. I do believe that Whit did well in run blocking but again I have to watch and see often they ran to that side. But either way I knew he was a good run blocker which is why I advocated him being moved to RT for years.

To be fair Whit played well against Denver and he seemed to get his act together in the 2nd half of the GB game. I certainly don't think that we currently have a better candidate for LT. Still it's something that I think bears close examination as the year progresses. We'll certainly have a good idea pretty quickly here as he faces Harrison and Suggs in the next couple of weeks.

Called him out on another thread but maybe the wind was blowing the wrong way...I'm sorry, that's Shayne's excuse.

I have no doubt Whit can handle bull rushes but man does he lack side to side speed because that's when he gets beat bad. He's also going to get holding calls against him because he lacks that speed. I honestly believe this team would've been better if he stayed at guard.

[TrojanPride]

Hot routes......

Not sure what you're getting at. A QB will normally look to a hot route when he sees a blitz coming before the play. I don't believe there was a blitz on either of those plays, Whit just got beat by his assignment.

[Nickslycat]

He has actually played better that I thought he would. I don't know who else can play LT. Andre the Fatty?

Has Whit ever lifted a weight? The guy has no muscle! Anybody know how many reps of 225 he did at the combine? My over / under is 3:lol:

All bs aside. This OL has far exceeded my expectations. I think a lot of that if the play of the FB.

[XenoMorph]

Not sure what you're getting at. A QB will normally look to a hot route when he sees a blitz coming before the play. I don't believe there was a blitz on either of those plays, Whit just got beat by his assignment.
its going to happen guys will give up sacks cause the guys on the other teams defense is getting paid 7 figures to get sacks. whits a big guy and fast enough the whole o-line looked bad that first half of GB game especially when they all shared the penalty. but they pulled it together new spot for whit or a least one he hasnt played in a minute give a few games and they should be fine if not once pick 6 of the draft is ready their could be some movement

and before everyone jumps on mine or whits *** they still protected carson for 4td's up and down the field and had great push in the run game. build the run game and there is less pressure on the line for the pass

[TrojanPride]

He has actually played better that I thought he would. I don't know who else can play LT. Andre the Fatty?

Has Whit ever lifted a weight? The guy has no muscle! Anybody know how many reps of 225 he did at the combine? My over / under is 3:lol:

All bs aside. This OL has far exceeded my expectations. I think a lot of that if the play of the FB.

:what: Not sure where you are going with the weight lifting thing. I don't believe strength is his problem. It's his foot speed.

As to who else could play LT on the team, like I said I don't think there is a better candidate.

I just bring this up because there was heavy debate in the draft forum during the off-season about the need to get a true LT in here who has the foot speed to deal with speed rushers. It seems like everyone just trusted the coaches and dropped it once they decided to put Whit at LT. I'm still not convinced.

[battey60]

Honestly he is going to give up about 6-7 sacks this year. What he lacks in pass protection he will make up for in the run game. The Team knows that he is not a lock down LT.

But watch some of the lockdown LTs in the league and see how much of a push they get in the run game.

I'll take Whit all day.

[TrojanPride]

its going to happen guys will give up sacks cause the guys on the other teams defense is getting paid 7 figures to get sacks. whits a big guy and fast enough the whole o-line looked bad that first half of GB game especially when they all shared the penalty. but they pulled it together new spot for whit or a least one he hasnt played in a minute give a few games and they should be fine if not once pick 6 of the draft is ready their could be some movement

and before everyone jumps on mine or whits *** they still protected carson for 4td's up and down the field and had great push in the run game. build the run game and there is less pressure on the line for the pass

All I'm saying is that people on these boards were all over Levi last year for giving up 5.5 sacks in 10 games. Whit's already on pace to surpass that. People also have said that the only time Whit has struggled is against the really elite DE's like Freeney. Would you put Clay Matthews in the 2nd game of his NFL career in the elite pass rushing category?

[battey60]

All I'm saying is that people on these boards were all over Levi last year for giving up 5.5 sacks in 10 games. Whit's already on pace to surpass that. People also have said that the only time Whit has struggled is against the really elite DE's like Freeney. Would you put Clay Matthews in the 2nd game of his NFL career in the elite pass rushing category?

Understand that we were "all over Levi" because Levi's strength is in Pass protection. He is a lockdown 300 pound athletic LT. Whitworth is a 330 pound athletic, adequate pass blocker but mauling run blocker. You are comparing 2 different type of players.

[TrojanPride]

Honestly he is going to give up about 6-7 sacks this year. What he lacks in pass protection he will make up for in the run game. The Team knows that he is not a lock down LT.

But watch some of the lockdown LTs in the league and see how much of a push they get in the run game.

I'll take Whit all day.

But that's why he should be at OG or RT. A LT needs to be able to lock down speed rushers because that's what you get every week playing LT. And I don't know if I like the trade off being able to run to the left side vs. my QB getting hit from his blind side. That's how QB injuries occur and fumbles.

Don't get me wrong I don't dislike Whit and I know he's a good run blocker. I'm just not sure he's playing his best position right now.

[TrojanPride]

Understand that we were "all over Levi" because Levi's strength is in Pass protection. He is a lockdown 300 pound athletic LT. Whitworth is a 330 pound athletic, adequate pass blocker but mauling run blocker. You are comparing 2 different type of players.

see post #11

[battey60]

But that's why he should be at OG or RT. A LT needs to be able to lock down speed rushers because that's what you get every week playing LT. And I don't know if I like the trade off being able to run to the left side vs. my QB getting hit from his blind side. That's how QB injuries occur and fumbles.

Don't get me wrong I don't dislike Whit and I know he's a good run blocker. I'm just not sure he's playing his best position right now.

When a team is trying to be a power running team. You cannot have a guy at a position that cannot run block. That is why they struggled week 1 because Collins is a weak link and cannot run block. They will make up for his lack of pass blocking against speed rushers by keeping J.Johnson in there to help. They know Whits weaknesses as we do. They will not allow him to stay on an Island with the Dwight Freeney's of the world. He will see some help there.


They succeeded on Sunday because they put Roland in on running plays to help the right side of the line make up for Collin's lack of run blocking skill and it worked.

[TrojanPride]

When a team is trying to be a power running team. You cannot have a guy at a position that cannot run block. That is why they struggled week 1 because Collins is a weak link and cannot run block. They will make up for his lack of pass blocking against speed rushers by keeping J.Johnson in there to help. They know Whits weaknesses as we do. They will not allow him to stay on an Island with the Dwight Freeney's of the world. He will see some help there.


They succeeded on Sunday because they put Roland in on running plays to help the right side of the line make up for Collin's lack of run blocking skill and it worked.

I hear what you are saying, but I think I disagree about LT being a key run blocking spot - it isn't across the league. You want an athletic guy at LT to handle the type of DE's that play on that side.

On the other hand RT is a premier run blocking spot which is why it's kind of baffling to have your best run blocker at LT and instead have not the greatest run blocker at RT and be forced to have another OT play TE to improve the run blocking to the right side.

I understand that the Andre injury plays into this but that still doesn't exactly solve the LT issue. And I'm not sure that we can afford to give Whit a lot of extra help if we have to give Collins extra help.

[eric NY]

So there's been tons of threads calling out Carson, and a thread dedicated to AC last week after his 2 sack allowed performance against Denver so I thought it was appropriate to at least have a thread discussing Whit's performance on Sunday.

Like AC, he gave up two sacks on back to back plays. The first sack was actually very reminiscent of that play in the New Orleans preseason game that was discussed extensively on these boards. The guy made a move to the inside, Whit wasn't able to move laterally quickly enough and the guy went right passed him.

On the 2nd sack Whit just got abused by Clay Matthews. Clay put a spin move on him and it looked like Whit's feet were stuck in quick sand. I had to a chuckle a bit after that play just because I remembered reading the pre-game expert break-down of the game on the front page and they made it sound like Whit should have no trouble with the rookie.

He also had two holding penalites. I'm not sure if they were on running or passing plays - have to go back and rewatch the game but holding calls typically indicate that the O-lineman was beat by his man.

This game just reminded me of why I was concerned prior to the start of the year about Whit's ability to hand speed rushers at LT. I do believe that Whit did well in run blocking but again I have to watch and see often they ran to that side. But either way I knew he was a good run blocker which is why I advocated him being moved to RT for years.

To be fair Whit played well against Denver and he seemed to get his act together in the 2nd half of the GB game. I certainly don't think that we currently have a better candidate for LT. Still it's something that I think bears close examination as the year progresses. We'll certainly have a good idea pretty quickly here as he faces Harrison and Suggs in the next couple of weeks.

The one I remember clearly was on a Benson run that went 15 yards on a stretch to the right. When it got called back and they called Whit's number I screamed "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HOLDING SOMEONE? THE RUN WASN'T EVEN GOING TO YOUR SIDE???" At the same time, I think the refs were being SUPER loose with their calls on Sunday, particularly on holding and a bit skewed against the Bengals. I don't liek to say things like that normally because it's hard to really prove and you can say it goes the other way other weeks and whatever, but I saw a couple times when a GB lineman had a fistfull of Geathers' jersey holding him back from a sack and there was no flag, yet every time we put our hands on a rusher there was a holding penalty.

I think Whit just had a bad day, but he'll have a good test on Sunday against James Harrison. He needs to able to hold his own with the elite rushers.

[battey60]

I hear what you are saying, but I think I disagree about LT being a key run blocking spot - it isn't across the league. You want an athletic guy at LT to handle the type of DE's that play on that side.

On the other hand RT is a premier run blocking spot which is why it's kind of baffling to have your best run blocker at LT and instead have not the greatest run blocker at RT and be forced to have another OT play TE to improve the run blocking to the right side.

I understand that the Andre injury plays into this but that still doesn't exactly solve the LT issue. And I'm not sure that we can afford to give Whit a lot of extra help if we have to give Collins extra help.

No I didn't mean that LT should be the key run blocking spot. Most teams don't do it that way, your right. But why do we have to be like most teams? Our Oline is one of the biggest and strongest in the league. We are playing to our strength by keeping it that way all the way down the line. We will be able to run against teams successfully because honestly they will not be used to seeing solid run blockers at all 5 positions.

Most teams consider a strong side and a weak side on the Oline. We don't currently have a weak side. I mean most teams are not use to solid run blocking from the LT position. They have to spread out the LBers and it confuses them and we wind up running successfully and then the play action pass opens up because teams fear the run.

The only reason why the deep ball was successful sunday was due to the hesitation from the DBs. You get that hesitation from running the ball successfully. Team like NE and Indy usually have athletic Olineman to help ward off pass rushers. We are not anything like those 2 teams because we can run the ball successfully.

[theroachman]

Would it be out of the question to switch Whit and Collins? That way they would be in spots more suited to their respective strenghts?

[battey60]

Would it be out of the question to switch Whit and Collins? That way they would be in spots more suited to their respective strenghts?

Again then you would keep you line with a player that canot run block. Right now Whit is being heralded as the LT of the future because he is the only one that is big and athletic enough to be a good run blocker and adequate pass protector.

Moving him now would basically eliminate our ability to run to the left side. Right now that is the side that is getting the best push in the run game.

[TrojanPride]

No I didn't mean that LT should be the key run blocking spot. Most teams don't do it that way, your right. But why do we have to be like most teams? Our Oline is one of the biggest and strongest in the league. We are playing to our strength by keeping it that way all the way down the line. We will be able to run against teams successfully because honestly they will not be used to seeing solid run blockers at all 5 positions.

Most teams consider a strong side and a weak side on the Oline. We don't currently have a weak side. I mean most teams are not use to solid run blocking from the LT position. They have to spread out the LBers and it confuses them and we wind up running successfully and then the play action pass opens up because teams fear the run.

The only reason why the deep ball was successful sunday was due to the hesitation from the DBs. You get that hesitation from running the ball successfully. Team like NE and Indy usually have athletic Olineman to help ward off pass rushers. We are not anything like those 2 teams because we can run the ball successfully.

If we actually turn into a power run team like you're saying then this may work. I'm just not convinced after one solid game of run blocking that we can call ourselves a power running team or even a great running team. The fact is that we've actually been a horrible running team since '06. Now obviously we have some new faces on the O-line so things can change but we have one of the highest paid QB's in the league with one of the strongest arms and some of the best WR's. I just find it hard to believe that we're going to turn into a 60/40 run/pass team. And let's see how much Brat sticks with the run. You know the second we get behind he normally abandons the run. I fear for Carson in those type of situations.

[CincyJ]

Would it be out of the question to switch Whit and Collins? That way they would be in spots more suited to their respective strenghts?

I think it's and idea, how many games did Collins Play at left Tackle since he's been drafted. I'm pretty sure it was a couple and he looked decent.

[battey60]

If we actually turn into a power run team like you're saying then this may work. I'm just not convinced after one solid game of run blocking that we can call ourselves a power running team or even a great running team. The fact is that we've actually been a horrible running team since '06. Now obviously we have some new faces on the O-line so things can change but we have one of the highest paid QB's in the league with one of the strongest arms and some of the best WR's. I just find it hard to believe that we're going to turn into a 60/40 run/pass team. And let's see how much Brat sticks with the run. You know the second we get behind he normally abandons the run. I fear for Carson in those type of situations.

We have been a horrible run team since 06 because we didn't have the run blockers to get it done. 04-05 we were a good running team because the line had good run blockers. We were athletic and we ran the no-huddle and we out hustled and ran flawless pulling plays.

Flashforward to 06 and we had lost our pulling guard and our starting mauling Center. Levi began to detereorate athletically and Big Willie got old. Its no wonder we couldn't run worth a crap. We were running a scheme that didn't fit the strengths of that line.

The strengths of this line is run blocking. ( Minus Collins of course because Collins is the weak link on this line and he is just waiting for Roland or Andre to take over) So they are playing to the lines strength. To put a Small Athletic Pass Protector at LT would take away the strength of the line.

[eric NY]

I think it's and idea, how many games did Collins Play at left Tackle since he's been drafted. I'm pretty sure it was a couple and he looked decent.

Not going to happen. The whole idea of having Collins at RT right now even though he's a natural LT is so that there's as little reshuffling and disruption as possible when Andre comes in. Collins is not a better LT than Whit, and the whole idea of this offseason was to get Whit completely entrenched at LT. Collins was never supposed to stay this long at RT...he's supposed to be backing up Whit. That's why you're already seeing Roland in there more and more.

Maybe with some development Collins can make a starting LT, but I don't know if he's an elite one and he certainly isn't enough of a run blocker to be a RT.

[TrojanPride]

To put a Small Athletic Pass Protector at LT would take away the strength of the line.

I might have to agree to disagree with you on that. Just looking at some of the best running teams from last year and most of them had what you would describe as a smaller more athletic LT.

You know if we had a Kyle Orton or Chad Pennington at QB who isn't going to throw the ball well or down the field much then I can see it.

But I kind of think that Brat's passing philosophy is at odds with this type of running philosophy. He still wants to send the WR's on these 20 yard+ patterns that take time to develop. If we truly are going to be a power running team then he needs to tweak the passing offense a bit more.

[rob66]

its going to happen guys will give up sacks cause the guys on the other teams defense is getting paid 7 figures to get sacks. whits a big guy and fast enough the whole o-line looked bad that first half of GB game especially when they all shared the penalty. but they pulled it together new spot for whit or a least one he hasnt played in a minute give a few games and they should be fine if not once pick 6 of the draft is ready their could be some movement

and before everyone jumps on mine or whits *** they still protected carson for 4td's up and down the field and had great push in the run game. build the run game and there is less pressure on the line for the pass

we did win the game and the running game opened up the passing game i.e. the flee flicker a thing of beauty 4 tds I don't know when the last time we scored that many points, it's good to know we can still score WHODEY!!!:tiger::tiger::tiger:

[zebo13]

Whit's rookie year he was shoved into the starting roll and did pretty decently most of the season after a murderer's row of DE's his first couple weeks. I do think Collins did pretty solid out there at LT last year and is definitely the quicker of the two. I just don't like to see them switching sides after a few games of experience and getting used to their respective positions. Also I like the idea of this 6'9" Roland character getting reps and making a difference, combine with the kid (Smith) eventually coming into play and getting reps. If we have 4 decent OT's and we are starting to punish teams with Ced Ben I could see the fourth quarter being very tough on opposing defenses.

[Joelist]

So Whit had a bad half against Green Bay. In the second half he was golden, and was golden against Denver. Collins on the other hand was horrid in preseason, horrid against Denver and it took giving him lots of help against Green Bay for it to work.

Whit will be fine as LT. All it means is that we have to help him with either a back ot TE chipping against real speed rushers.

[Whatever]

All I'm saying is that people on these boards were all over Levi last year for giving up 5.5 sacks in 10 games. Whit's already on pace to surpass that. People also have said that the only time Whit has struggled is against the really elite DE's like Freeney. Would you put Clay Matthews in the 2nd game of his NFL career in the elite pass rushing category?

Well,no,I obviously wouldn't list Clay Matthews as an elite pass rusher. At the same time,you have to be careful with that kind of logic. It's kind of like saying "Jake Long is the #1 OT in this year's draft,and Vernon Gholston beat him for a sack this year,so Vernon Gholston HAS to be be a great player." Even elite NFL T's get worked by no-names sometimes.

Whit is obviously going to be a cause for concern for a while. He went through a rough patch during that game,but then he turned it around. He will also start getting more help from the TE's and the RB's as soon as Smith is ready to take over for Collins.

[TrojanPride]

So Whit had a bad half against Green Bay. In the second half he was golden, and was golden against Denver. Collins on the other hand was horrid in preseason, horrid against Denver and it took giving him lots of help against Green Bay for it to work.

Whit will be fine as LT. All it means is that we have to help him with either a back ot TE chipping against real speed rushers.

Yeah I definitely don't think we are going to get destroyed with Whit at LT this year. However if he gives up 7 or 8 sacks (or more) then I will not be satisfied and think we should start looking for a LT in next years draft.

[bengalsfan2008]

Whit is a strong physical tackle more fitted to the right side, however, our coaches believe in him. I saw some plays where Whit looked HORRIBLE in pass protection. at times he looked like he had given up. Hey may have only given up two sacks vs GB, but he also let up which added pressure for Palmer.

[TrojanPride]

Well,no,I obviously wouldn't list Clay Matthews as an elite pass rusher. At the same time,you have to be careful with that kind of logic. It's kind of like saying "Jake Long is the #1 OT in this year's draft,and Vernon Gholston beat him for a sack this year,so Vernon Gholston HAS to be be a great player." Even elite NFL T's get worked by no-names sometimes.

Well Vernon Gholston actually did not beat him but I know what you are saying. I only bring that up because in the off-season I kept hearing how Whit only played poorly against Freeney or whatever so I felt it necessary to point this out.


Whit is obviously going to be a cause for concern for a while. He went through a rough patch during that game,but then he turned it around. He will also start getting more help from the TE's and the RB's as soon as Smith is ready to take over for Collins.

I know. That rough patch was similar to that game Levi had against KC a couple years past and Levi got ripped apart (even though I think he gave up like 1 sack the rest of the year)

I don't say that becasue I'm a Levi fan or anything like that. I just find it interesting that people have always seemed a lot more willing to make excuses or overlook Whit's bad games as opposed to many of our other O-lineman. I mean last year he played just as poorly as everyone else but yet I kept hearing about how we was probowl quality or whatever.

[Derrick]

If we actually turn into a power run team like you're saying then this may work. I'm just not convinced after one solid game of run blocking that we can call ourselves a power running team or even a great running team. The fact is that we've actually been a horrible running team since '06. Now obviously we have some new faces on the O-line so things can change but we have one of the highest paid QB's in the league with one of the strongest arms and some of the best WR's. I just find it hard to believe that we're going to turn into a 60/40 run/pass team. And let's see how much Brat sticks with the run. You know the second we get behind he normally abandons the run. I fear for Carson in those type of situations.

Actually I am not convinced that the run game will work at all against Pitts. They will key on Benson and force Palmer to pass. Then Pitts will blitz all day long. I hope I am totally wrong and the Bengal RBs have a record day! ;)

[BigJim68]

I've said all along that Whitworth doesn't have the foot speed to be a shutdown pass protector to Carson's blind side, and i have also said all along that Whitworth and Collins need to switch positions. I think that most fans would agree that our 2 T's needed to switch positions at the start of training camp, it's just too bad that our clueless coaching staff couldn't see that as well. :angry:

[battey60]

Actually I am not convinced that the run game will work at all against Pitts. They will key on Benson and force Palmer to pass. Then Pitts will blitz all day long. I hope I am totally wrong and the Bengal RBs have a record day! ;)

This Oline is not set up to be successful if the run game fails. I just cannot see them physically being able to keep with pass rusher from a conditioning standpoint late in the game.

I think the physicality of our Oline will throw Pitt off early and that is when we have to finish them off. We have to put up alot of points in the first half because in the 2nd they will stop the run completely.

We can jump out early but it has to be because of the run game. The run game will soften up the coverage of the Steelers (which is not that great to begin with). This will lead to the play action pass which was so effective against a Green Bay defense that was not as bad as we made them look.

We have to get the run game going early tho that is key. No way the steelers don't adjust at halftime they are just too good personell wise and coaching wise. There is no Offense that Lebeau has not seen.

[battey60]

I've said all along that Whitworth doesn't have the foot speed to be a shutdown pass protector to Carson's blind side, and i have also said all along that Whitworth and Collins need to switch positions. I think that most fans would agree that our 2 T's needed to switch positions at the start of training camp, it's just too bad that our clueless coaching staff couldn't see that as well. :angry:

Again your reputation preceeds you. So let me get this straight. We just put up one of the best offensive performances on a good defensive team and you want to switch around the Oline? Why on earth would we want to switc things around? So we can put a guy that is perceived as a LT in this league at his proper spot?

What makes you think he fits at LT in our scheme?

[battey60]

Yeah I definitely don't think we are going to get destroyed with Whit at LT this year. However if he gives up 7 or 8 sacks (or more) then I will not be satisfied and think we should start looking for a LT in next years draft.

Why does no one seem to understand what I and the rest of the coaching staff have said from the beggining. Whit is there because of his run blocking ability. You will not find a LT in the first round of the draft that can run block like Whit. We are not looking for a Levi Jones at LT anymore. Those days of looking for athletic LTs that can shut down the blindside but get blown up in the run game are over.

What about sunday and the beautiful play action passes don't you guys understand? Our Run game leads to the pass game. We have burners at all WR positions. You only open them up by running the ball.

This is not Peyton Mannings pass first offense. you have to stop making it out as such.

[Ryan Mc]

Whit did have a tough game, and we've got to clean up those holds in the running game.

So not trying to make excuses, but the Jenkins sack I don't think was a regular case of Whit being beaten by speed inside. If you watch the play he seems to stumble coming out of his stance which is why he's beaten. I'm not saying that makes it OK, but hopefully messing up the snap count, or whatever happened there, isn't something that'll happen again. My point is it wasn't a weakness in ability on that sack.

And, on the Matthews sack you can see him gesture to Mathis after the play in a way that makes it clear he thought the guard was supposed to slide his side and block any inside move by the rusher. So, the way he was abused on that play might have been because he cheated to the outside move, expecting that he had help on any inside move, which never came.

Anyway, it's a good thread. Whit did have his name mentioned for the wrong reasons a few too many times on Sunday, and his play at LT is a huge key to the season, but I'm prepared to give him a break for the moment. Our line is obvious very young and inexperienced generally and still trying to gel.

[TrojanPride]

Why does no one seem to understand what I and the rest of the coaching staff have said from the beggining. Whit is there because of his run blocking ability. You will not find a LT in the first round of the draft that can run block like Whit. We are not looking for a Levi Jones at LT anymore. Those days of looking for athletic LTs that can shut down the blindside but get blown up in the run game are over.

What about sunday and the beautiful play action passes don't you guys understand? Our Run game leads to the pass game. We have burners at all WR positions. You only open them up by running the ball.

This is not Peyton Mannings pass first offense. you have to stop making it out as such.

You can spin that however you want but it's not acceptable to have a LT get beat on a straightforward, non-blitz, 1-on-1 situations on a regular basis. Whether that happens on a regular basis or not remains to be seen.

But if it does than his run blocking ability is not sufficient to make up for it. Doesn't mean we have to go out and get a guy that can't run block at all but at the same time we shouldn't settle for 7 or more sack allowed season from our LT just because he's a good run blocker.

[battey60]

You can spin that however you want but it's not acceptable to have a LT get beat on a straightforward, non-blitz, 1-on-1 situations on a regular basis. Whether that happens on a regular basis or not remains to be seen.

But if it does than his run blocking ability is not sufficient to make up for it. Doesn't mean we have to go out and get a guy that can't run block at all but at the same time we shouldn't settle for 7 or more sack allowed season from our LT just because he's a good run blocker.

Giving up 5-7 sacks is not a regular basis. Its not shut down LT. But it is not a regular basis. It basically shows exactly what it means. that Whit is an Average Pass Blocker.

And that is exactly what we will do we will settle for a LT that gives up 7 sacks a year because we are so desperate to establish a run game. Will it turn into wins? I am willing to give that a chance.

Also like a previous poster stated there was a sack that was more on the LG than the LT. That sack would not have happened if Livings was in there.

We place a LT that is a lockdown Pass protector but a crappy run blocker we will abandon what we were trying to establish in Training Camp and Preseason and that is a return to the run game. Its not very good to give up on your season goals early on in the season.

IF we want a LT that is like what you guys are suggesting you can pretty much look at what we did in 2007 and copy it to this season. Struggle in the run game. Carson presses, He throws 20 picks in a year and the team struggles.

[TrojanPride]

Giving up 5-7 sacks is not a regular basis. Its not shut down LT. But it is not a regular basis. It basically shows exactly what it means. that Whit is an Average Pass Blocker.

And that is exactly what we will do we will settle for a LT that gives up 7 sacks a year because we are so desperate to establish a run game. Will it turn into wins? I am willing to give that a chance.

Also like a previous poster stated there was a sack that was more on the LG than the LT. That sack would not have happened if Livings was in there.

We place a LT that is a lockdown Pass protector but a crappy run blocker we will abandon what we were trying to establish in Training Camp and Preseason and that is a return to the run game. Its not very good to give up on your season goals early on in the season.

IF we want a LT that is like what you guys are suggesting you can pretty much look at what we did in 2007 and copy it to this season. Struggle in the run game. Carson presses, He throws 20 picks in a year and the team struggles.

Well first of all I never suggested that we get a LT that is crappy run blocker. You make it like it's an either/or which it is not. However I'd definitely be happier with a guy who is a stronger pass protector than run blocker no doubt.

We did pretty well in the run game in '05 when Levi was at LT so obviously you don't have to have an elite run blocking LT to have a strong running game (and many other good running teams are like this). Running to the right and up the middle does not involve the LT much if at all.

Here's the funny thing about '07. The main difference between '05 and '07 is that we lost Braham at OC and we lost Steinbach at LG. Funny enough Whit was the guy that replaced Steinbach and then we struggled running the ball. Obviously it's not all on him as Ghiaciuc gets plenty of the blame (as do our RB's) but is Whitworth really that great of a run blocker that we can overlook him giving up sacks? He didn't exactly blow me away at LG.

I'm not advocating a change right now and once Andre gets in the game presumably we will be running right all the time since that's his supposed strong suit.

This thread was mostly started just to state that Whit can't have many games like he had Sunday and if he does then we need to look elsewhere next year for LT. I mean if he has many more games like Sunday then he'll have more than 5-7 sacks. And the holding calls are unacceptable no matter what position he plays.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Remember, Bengaldom, that this offensive line is temporary and there will be changes as the season progresses. Two positions will remain the same: Kyle Cook at center and Bobbie Williams at right guard. The rest of the line will change when Andre Smith recovers and begins to play.

First of all, I want Andre where he was at Alabama: At left tackle. He is big enough to protect Carson's blind side and let's be truthful here. Andre is a big guy. A defensive end trying to do a spin move around Andre will have to spin about five times to get around his rather sizable frame.

Andrew Whitworth can move to left guard where he plays extremely well. He can run block with the best of them and he can take on defensive tackles and linebackers in pass blocking while defensive ends try to tangle with Andre Smith.

At right tackle I would place Dennis Roland. At almost seven feet tall and well over 300 pounds, he pushes defensive lineman around like a bulldozer moving a pile of dirt. When Cedric Benson scored against the Broncos, Dennis was in the game making a big push. When Carson scored against Green Bay, Dennis came in and cleared the way.

[TrojanPride]

Remember, Bengaldom, that this offensive line is temporary and there will be changes as the season progresses. Two positions will remain the same: Kyle Cook at center and Bobbie Williams at right guard. The rest of the line will change when Andre Smith recovers and begins to play.

First of all, I want Andre where he was at Alabama: At left tackle. He is big enough to protect Carson's blind side and let's be truthful here. Andre is a big guy. A defensive end trying to do a spin move around Andre will have to spin about five times to get around his rather sizable frame.

Andrew Whitworth can move to left guard where he plays extremely well. He can run block with the best of them and he can take on defensive tackles and linebackers in pass blocking while defensive ends try to tangle with Andre Smith.

At right tackle I would place Dennis Roland. At almost seven feet tall and well over 300 pounds, he pushes defensive lineman around like a bulldozer moving a pile of dirt. When Cedric Benson scored against the Broncos, Dennis was in the game making a big push. When Carson scored against Green Bay, Dennis came in and cleared the way.

I'm actually not sold on Andre at LT either. He has the same questions about his lateral mobility that Whit does but it doesn't matter anyway because it won't happen - certainly not this year and I expect probably never. The coaches clearly have Andre penciled in at RT.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

The coaches clearly have Andre penciled in at RT.

I'm glad the coaches are using a pencil because pencil can be erased!

[Jasonew6]

So there's been tons of threads calling out Carson, and a thread dedicated to AC last week after his 2 sack allowed performance against Denver so I thought it was appropriate to at least have a thread discussing Whit's performance on Sunday.

Like AC, he gave up two sacks on back to back plays. The first sack was actually very reminiscent of that play in the New Orleans preseason game that was discussed extensively on these boards. The guy made a move to the inside, Whit wasn't able to move laterally quickly enough and the guy went right passed him.

On the 2nd sack Whit just got abused by Clay Matthews. Clay put a spin move on him and it looked like Whit's feet were stuck in quick sand. I had to a chuckle a bit after that play just because I remembered reading the pre-game expert break-down of the game on the front page and they made it sound like Whit should have no trouble with the rookie.

He also had two holding penalites. I'm not sure if they were on running or passing plays - have to go back and rewatch the game but holding calls typically indicate that the O-lineman was beat by his man.

This game just reminded me of why I was concerned prior to the start of the year about Whit's ability to hand speed rushers at LT. I do believe that Whit did well in run blocking but again I have to watch and see often they ran to that side. But either way I knew he was a good run blocker which is why I advocated him being moved to RT for years.

To be fair Whit played well against Denver and he seemed to get his act together in the 2nd half of the GB game. I certainly don't think that we currently have a better candidate for LT. Still it's something that I think bears close examination as the year progresses. We'll certainly have a good idea pretty quickly here as he faces Harrison and Suggs in the next couple of weeks.

Called him out on another thread but maybe the wind was blowing the wrong way...I'm sorry, that's Shayne's excuse.

I have no doubt Whit can handle bull rushes but man does he lack side to side speed because that's when he gets beat bad. He's also going to get holding calls against him because he lacks that speed. I honestly believe this team would've been better if he stayed at guard.

Keep in mind, Whit shut Dumerville (a speed rusher currently second in the NFL in sacks) out. Everyone has a bad game now and then. Whit plays well more often than not.

[Armoredcar]

This Oline is not set up to be successful if the run game fails. I just cannot see them physically being able to keep with pass rusher from a conditioning standpoint late in the game.

I think the physicality of our Oline will throw Pitt off early and that is when we have to finish them off. We have to put up alot of points in the first half because in the 2nd they will stop the run completely.

We can jump out early but it has to be because of the run game. The run game will soften up the coverage of the Steelers (which is not that great to begin with). This will lead to the play action pass which was so effective against a Green Bay defense that was not as bad as we made them look.

We have to get the run game going early tho that is key. No way the steelers don't adjust at halftime they are just too good personell wise and coaching wise. There is no Offense that Lebeau has not seen.

Chicago beat them with just 43 yards on the ground. Pitt's weakness is against the pass...not the run. If we play to their strength I don't believe we'll win this game. We have to throw on them.

[THEBURG]

Why does no one seem to understand what I and the rest of the coaching staff have said from the beggining. Whit is there because of his run blocking ability. You will not find a LT in the first round of the draft that can run block like Whit. We are not looking for a Levi Jones at LT anymore. Those days of looking for athletic LTs that can shut down the blindside but get blown up in the run game are over.

What about sunday and the beautiful play action passes don't you guys understand? Our Run game leads to the pass game. We have burners at all WR positions. You only open them up by running the ball.

This is not Peyton Mannings pass first offense. you have to stop making it out as such.

I did not know you were one of the coaches, but since you are, will you tell me why Henry is not in on more plays, just asking. B) :lol:

[tigershrimp]

Just be thankful we don'y have that John St. Clair p.o.s. that Cleveland picked up. I heard a radio program where Cleveland fans were ******** about their O-line! Steinbach and Thomas are being labeled "finesse" guys...Fraley's struggling at guard...and St. Clair is a swingin' gate.

Those guys have serious issues up north. We have some inconsistency and some unfamiliarity, but I think we've got "road graders" here. These guys are getting after it in the run game without the 'Bama Butterbean. And I tell you what: Evan Mathis stepped up! He got flagged once, but I saw Ced twice go through supermarket lanes where that kid lined up!

[battey60]

I did not know you were one of the coaches, but since you are, will you tell me why Henry is not in on more plays, just asking. B) :lol:



Hold on let me go into Marvins doghouse and ask him :lol:

[BigJim68]

Again your reputation preceeds you. So let me get this straight. We just put up one of the best offensive performances on a good defensive team and you want to switch around the Oline? Why on earth would we want to switc things around? So we can put a guy that is perceived as a LT in this league at his proper spot?

What makes you think he fits at LT in our scheme?

Do you know how to read? :rolleyes: I said that Whitworth and Collins should have been switched at the START OF TRAINING CAMP. Anyone with even the slightest knowledge about an NFL O-Line knows that the RT is the power spot on the O-Line where the running plays go alot of the time, and Collins is extremely weak when it comes to run blocking, however, run blocking is Whitworth's main strength, so you do the math pal.

[battey60]

Chicago beat them with just 43 yards on the ground. Pitt's weakness is against the pass...not the run. If we play to their strength I don't believe we'll win this game. We have to throw on them.

Chicago barely made it out of there. That gameplan will do exactly the same. Chicago's Oline is probably built for finesse and to protect the passer moreso than ours.

I highly doubt our "huge" oline could take 60 mins of "Peyton Manning" passing plays.

You want to beat Pitt by 2 TDs or more then run successsfully and beat the "Weak" safeties deep with the Play-action pass. Henry will have a career day if we can run the ball sucessfully.

[battey60]

Do you know how to read? :rolleyes: I said that Whitworth and Collins should have been switched at the START OF TRAINING CAMP.

And you were wrong then and wrong now. So what is the difference? your still wrong.:denny:

[BigJim68]

And you were wrong then and wrong now. So what is the difference? your still wrong.:denny:

Says the guy who knows absolutely NOTHING about football.

[battey60]

Says the guy who knows absolutely NOTHING about football.

Says the guy with neg rep. you get that by sharing your great knowledge of the game?

[Whatever]

Well Vernon Gholston actually did not beat him but I know what you are saying. I only bring that up because in the off-season I kept hearing how Whit only played poorly against Freeney or whatever so I felt it necessary to point this out.




I know. That rough patch was similar to that game Levi had against KC a couple years past and Levi got ripped apart (even though I think he gave up like 1 sack the rest of the year)

I don't say that becasue I'm a Levi fan or anything like that. I just find it interesting that people have always seemed a lot more willing to make excuses or overlook Whit's bad games as opposed to many of our other O-lineman. I mean last year he played just as poorly as everyone else but yet I kept hearing about how we was probowl quality or whatever.

What can I say? There are some guys that the Bengals' fanbase takes to that the "mob" almost never seems to call out. Whit is one of those guys. Levi Jones alienated the fan base when he started grumbling that he wanted out,so people were quick to throw him under the bus. People called out Collins because he quite noticeably played like garbage all preseason and played like garbage against the Broncos. He seemed better against GB,but how much of that is the coaches gameplanning to give him extra help,and how is that affecting Whit's play? The way I look at it,yeah,Whit deserves to be singled out for his poor play this week(along with Carson and Crocker,for that matter). However,unless it becomes a trend where he's playing badly every week,I don't think it's cause to start mashing the panic button.

[Armoredcar]

Chicago barely made it out of there. That gameplan will do exactly the same. Chicago's Oline is probably built for finesse and to protect the passer moreso than ours.

I highly doubt our "huge" oline could take 60 mins of "Peyton Manning" passing plays.

You want to beat Pitt by 2 TDs or more then run successsfully and beat the "Weak" safeties deep with the Play-action pass. Henry will have a career day if we can run the ball sucessfully.

I hear ya and that makes alot of sense. I just can't remember the last time Pitt gave up 100 on the ground and I'm not convinced we can successfully do that, though I'm sure we'll try. Thinking about how this game will possibly turn out is giving me flashbacks to the opening day loss to the Ravens last year when we kept pounding the run and it was like beating our heads into a brick wall. That resulted in a ton of three and outs and the defense got wore down because of the huge TOP differential. I'm not against attempting to pound the rock at first...but if it isn't successful and leads to 2 three and outs in a row, I'd switch to plan B in a hurry rather than just beating our heads against that wall.

Right now Pitt. is vurnerable to short and intermediate passes. Our O-line shouldn't have to block very long on quick 3 step drops. Its how most teams beat Pitt....Indy, New England, and Chicago. And if Cutler can do it with no name receivers, I have to believe Palmer can do it with his recievers.

[battey60]

What can I say? There are some guys that the Bengals' fanbase takes to that the "mob" almost never seems to call out. Whit is one of those guys. Levi Jones alienated the fan base when he started grumbling that he wanted out,so people were quick to throw him under the bus. People called out Collins because he quite noticeably played like garbage all preseason and played like garbage against the Broncos. He seemed better against GB,but how much of that is the coaches gameplanning to give him extra help,and how is that affecting Whit's play? The way I look at it,yeah,Whit deserves to be singled out for his poor play this week(along with Carson and Crocker,for that matter). However,unless it becomes a trend where he's playing badly every week,I don't think it's cause to start mashing the panic button.

What alot of people don't seem to get is the reason why we are not calling out Whit. Collins was called out because of his poor run blocking.
Run blocking that was still poor on sunday and he had to be helped by Roland. Also his pass blocking was terrible week 1 and that is supposed to be his strength. I expect no one to get through Collins because he is an athletic Tackle that should be able to shut down speed rushers. His trouble now seems to be with the bull rush. Collins is lacking the strength to play the RT position.

Levi Jones when healthy and early on in his career was one of the best pass protectors the league had seen. His athleticism was so rare that you rarely saw Tackles of his skill set. He was a 6'5 300 pound former college TE. When people say your strength is Pass protecting and you get beasted by Jared Allen and anyone else who wants a turn you are going to be criticized. Also his strength was not in the run game but when he was healthy he could surprise defenders with his speed and quickness. That all ended when his knees quit and our starting LT last year is still sitting at home this year.

Whitworth is tough to criticize because we know no matter what he lacks the lateral quickness to be able to shut down speed a quick rushers. We know that. He needs help from the backs to pick up his mistakes in that area. We also know that his strength is in the run game and we know that our Oline dominated a decent run defense on sunday while Whit was at LT. That hasn't happened in a long time. As other posters pointed out on one sack he was expecting help from an inexperienced LG and Mathis failed him, making him look bad.

[TrojanPride]

What can I say? There are some guys that the Bengals' fanbase takes to that the "mob" almost never seems to call out. Whit is one of those guys. Levi Jones alienated the fan base when he started grumbling that he wanted out,so people were quick to throw him under the bus. People called out Collins because he quite noticeably played like garbage all preseason and played like garbage against the Broncos. He seemed better against GB,but how much of that is the coaches gameplanning to give him extra help,and how is that affecting Whit's play? The way I look at it,yeah,Whit deserves to be singled out for his poor play this week(along with Carson and Crocker,for that matter). However,unless it becomes a trend where he's playing badly every week,I don't think it's cause to start mashing the panic button.

That's pretty much what I said in the OP. We have at least 4-5 threads relating to Carson's 2 bad clear mistakes in that game I figured Whit at least deserved a post regarding his 4 clear mistakes.

No panic button yet but for those of us who had concerns about him playing LT since the offseason this was a bit of reminder of why.

[TrojanPride]

Okay I just re-watched the game and kept my eye on Whit. Couple of observations:

1) Roland lined up on both sides of the line at TE. He wasn't only on the right side, he lined up next to Whit several times as well.

2) I missed this originally but on our first drive, Matthews beat Whit and almost sacked Palmer but he got rid of the ball just in time. Still put a pretty hard hit on Carson.

3) The 2 holding calls on Whit were both on running plays. The first one wasn't even to Whit's side of the field. He tackled Matthews. Although that's one of those calls that maybe they could have let go just because it wasn't really involved in the play but there is no doubt that it was a take down. The 2nd one was a clear case of grabbing and holding onto the defenders jersey.

4) The two sacks were not back to back as I orginally thought (instead it was a holding call and then a sack on the next play).

On the first sack by Jenkins, there was a suggestion that Whit was supposed to get help from the LG but it did not appear like that to me. I watched it several times. It seemed clear that Whit was taking Jenkins. There was no hesitaiton at all from Whit. As Jenkins got around him, he just fell down. There did not appear to be any contact or anything to cause him to fall.

After watching the 2nd sack again, I actually feel more embarrassed for Whit than I orginally remembered when watching it the first time. Matthews absolutely schooled him.

[battey60]

Okay I just re-watched the game and kept my eye on Whit. Couple of observations:

1) Roland lined up on both sides of the line at TE. He wasn't only on the right side, he lined up next to Whit several times as well.

2) I missed this originally but on our first drive, Matthews beat Whit and almost sacked Palmer but he got rid of the ball just in time. Still put a pretty hard hit on Carson.

3) The 2 holding calls on Whit were both on running plays. The first one wasn't even to Whit's side of the field. He tackled Matthews. Although that's one of those calls that maybe they could have let go just because it wasn't really involved in the play but there is no doubt that it was a take down. The 2nd one was a clear case of grabbing and holding onto the defenders jersey.

4) The two sacks were not back to back as I orginally thought (instead it was a holding call and then a sack on the next play).

On the first sack by Jenkins, there was a suggestion that Whit was supposed to get help from the LG but it did not appear like that to me. I watched it several times. It seemed clear that Whit was taking Jenkins. There was no hesitaiton at all from Whit. As Jenkins got around him, he just fell down. There did not appear to be any contact or anything to cause him to fall.

After watching the 2nd sack again, I actually feel more embarrassed for Whit than I orginally remembered when watching it the first time. Matthews absolutely schooled him.



yeah that sack by jenkins is a tough one to call because it looks so embarrassing. I think most are giving him the benefit of the doubt. He looked like he fell from nothing. Like Jenkins barely touched him. Someone said he was looking at the LG like he was supposed to help. I don't get that on my Sunday Ticket Game mix. They just show the plays and not the crap after so I miss that at times.

I am gonna have to say he does need to step up and he did have a bad game. I think most of those yards came from Roland at TE. it really threw the D off.

I have a feeling Whit will do fine against Pitt. he seems to do better against OLB in the 3-4. He sure played Okay against Dumervil. Harrison is alot better but still the same size and body type.

[TrojanPride]

yeah that sack by jenkins is a tough one to call because it looks so embarrassing. I think most are giving him the benefit of the doubt. He looked like he fell from nothing. Like Jenkins barely touched him. Someone said he was looking at the LG like he was supposed to help. I don't get that on my Sunday Ticket Game mix. They just show the plays and not the crap after so I miss that at times.

I am gonna have to say he does need to step up and he did have a bad game. I think most of those yards came from Roland at TE. it really threw the D off.

I have a feeling Whit will do fine against Pitt. he seems to do better against OLB in the 3-4. He sure played Okay against Dumervil. Harrison is alot better but still the same size and body type.

I hope he does do better against the steelers and I would not be surprised if he does but GB was playing a 3-4 as well (and he struggled most with Matthews a 3-4 OLB) so I'm not sure it can be chalked up to the formation.

[battey60]

I hope he does do better against the steelers and I would not be surprised if he does but GB was playing a 3-4 as well (and he struggled most with Matthews a 3-4 OLB) so I'm not sure it can be chalked up to the formation.

Yeah you are right. We will see how this plays ot throughout the season. I am certain he will give up more sacks, like I said. As long as or run game is firing on all cylinders and we are hitting the deep play action pass I can let a few sacks slide.

All in all you have to admit Carson has more time to throw then he had last year at times. Honestly at times this Oline looks really good in pass protection and other times they look extremely silly like they have never blocked before.

They are a young line so I am gonna try to be patient with this one. I like what they all bring to the run game though. Don't knwo if I have expressed that enough. :lol:

[TrojanPride]

Yeah you are right. We will see how this plays ot throughout the season. I am certain he will give up more sacks, like I said. As long as or run game is firing on all cylinders and we are hitting the deep play action pass I can let a few sacks slide.

All in all you have to admit Carson has more time to throw then he had last year at times. Honestly at times this Oline looks really good in pass protection and other times they look extremely silly like they have never blocked before.

They are a young line so I am gonna try to be patient with this one. I like what they all bring to the run game though. Don't knwo if I have expressed that enough. :lol:

Haha don't listen to me too much. I tend to have a more pessimistic take on things, just because I'm so used to being let down by this team....

I was very impressed by the run game against GB. It was the best I've seen from this team in years. But it's just one game and the run game wasn't very good in game #1 so I'm taking more of a wait and see type of approach before I declare that we are great run blocking team.

As to the pass blocking, yes we seem better than last year but last year we we're god awful so I don't know what that means yet either.

I think just expect more from Whit because he supposed to be the leader of this group.

[xXPalmer2Johnson46Xx]

Yeah all these guys really **** at what they do, atleast u have time to think about while ur while ur stocking shelves at Wal-Mart....<_<

[TrojanPride]

Yeah all these guys really **** at what they do, atleast u have time to think about while ur while ur stocking shelves at Wal-Mart....<_<

Well considering how much they get paid, yeah they have ******...

Sad thing is I'd probably take a job at Walmart. The economy is horrible out here in California. You'd think after graduating from a good law school that I could find a job but instead I find myself sitting on my *** drinking beer and re-watching bengals games :lol:

[Whatever]

Well considering how much they get paid, yeah they have ******...

Sad thing is I'd probably take a job at Walmart. The economy is horrible out here in California. You'd think after graduating from a good law school that I could find a job but instead I find myself sitting on my *** drinking beer and re-watching bengals games :lol:

I thought law school grads worked at Starbucks. Or is that people with an MBA.?

[TrojanPride]

I thought law school grads worked at Starbucks. Or is that people with an MBA.?

:lol::lol: I was just talking about that with someone. My brother and his girlfriend work there but I was going to hold out for another couple months before I ask for a reference :cry:

[Skyglider]

Don't we have a problem with offensive scheme when we leave a tackle in space with a linebacker? Most tackles will lose that battle every time.

[TrojanPride]

Don't we have a problem with offensive scheme when we leave a tackle in space with a linebacker? Most tackles will lose that battle every time.

Well when you play a 3-4 defense the tackle will inevitably be facing an OLB, can't really get around that.

[Ryan Mc]

On the first sack by Jenkins, there was a suggestion that Whit was supposed to get help from the LG but it did not appear like that to me.

yeah that sack by jenkins is a tough one to call because it looks so embarrassing. I think most are giving him the benefit of the doubt. He looked like he fell from nothing. Like Jenkins barely touched him. Someone said he was looking at the LG like he was supposed to help. I don't get that on my Sunday Ticket Game mix. They just show the plays and not the crap after so I miss that at times.

It was the sack by Matthews, not Jenkins, where Whit gestures to Mathis as if to say hey you went that way when I thought you were coming this way. Just keep your eyes on Whit for a couple seconds after the end of the play. And that would explain why he is beaten so badly, if he was cheating to block outside expecting that he had help on any inside move.

But, for sure, Whit's performance is something worth focussing on. This Sunday he's going to get Harrison on most plays, and his performance is absolutely crucial to anything we do on offense.

[BigJohnWC]

He has actually played better that I thought he would. I don't know who else can play LT. Andre the Fatty?

Has Whit ever lifted a weight? The guy has no muscle! Anybody know how many reps of 225 he did at the combine? My over / under is 3:lol:

All bs aside. This OL has far exceeded my expectations. I think a lot of that if the play of the FB.

Actually, Whit came to camp in '07 at under 11% body fat. So, that being said, YES he has lifted quite a few weights it would seem.

Walk up to the man sometime ... he may not be cut like chiseled granite, but he is one solid machine of a man.

WHO DEY!

[OSUfan]

All I'm saying is that people on these boards were all over Levi last year for giving up 5.5 sacks in 10 games. Whit's already on pace to surpass that. People also have said that the only time Whit has struggled is against the really elite DE's like Freeney. Would you put Clay Matthews in the 2nd game of his NFL career in the elite pass rushing category?

Until this point Freeney was the only one he really had trouble with at LT. So those people were correct. It is early and the line is actually playing pretty well for all the changes it faced in the offseason. It is very, very rare to find a LT that is outstanding when it comes to run blocking and pass blocking. Usually they give something up one way or the other. In Whit's case it is that he may not be an elite pass protector, but is absolutely a pass protector that you can win alot of games with. What he does in the run game is very important to this team.

[battey60]

Until this point Freeney was the only one he really had trouble with at LT. So those people were correct. It is early and the line is actually playing pretty well for all the changes it faced in the offseason. It is very, very rare to find a LT that is outstanding when it comes to run blocking and pass blocking. Usually they give something up one way or the other. In Whit's case it is that he may not be an elite pass protector, but is absolutely a pass protector that you can win alot of games with. What he does in the run game is very important to this team.

I agree with this. They are trying to get the run game back. They feel like they can give up a couple sacks as long as Benson gets 100 yards a game. I feel pretty confident in that game plan considering our record with a 100 yard rusher. Whenever Carson has a huge passing day we end up losing. Plus this oline is really not built to protect for 40+ throws.

[Kazkal]

Does he need to be called out? I'm happy with whits play 2 holding calls one was total BS.... One Sack that was simple mistake vs packers has been all he has done wrong....But hes overall done fine protecting carsons blind side hes making big impact in the run game yet people want Anthony Collins on the left side who has given up more sacks and has had no impact in the run game I just dont get it..

[TrojanPride]

Until this point Freeney was the only one he really had trouble with at LT. So those people were correct. It is early and the line is actually playing pretty well for all the changes it faced in the offseason. It is very, very rare to find a LT that is outstanding when it comes to run blocking and pass blocking. Usually they give something up one way or the other. In Whit's case it is that he may not be an elite pass protector, but is absolutely a pass protector that you can win alot of games with. What he does in the run game is very important to this team.

I agree with this. They are trying to get the run game back. They feel like they can give up a couple sacks as long as Benson gets 100 yards a game. I feel pretty confident in that game plan considering our record with a 100 yard rusher. Whenever Carson has a huge passing day we end up losing. Plus this oline is really not built to protect for 40+ throws.

I hear you guys as to the run game. I definitely think having a good running game is a key to the season. Still having said that, in order to win this division we have to beat the steelers and the ravens and the only times that we've had any kind of success against those teams is when we've been able to protect Palmer and throw the ball early in the game. If we can do that and get an early lead then we can mix in the run game somewhat effectively. However, if our game plan is just to pound from the beginning of the game I don't think we'll be very successful on offense. And that really goes for all the games I've seen those teams lose recently - they are beat through the air.

We've all seen both the steelers and ravens D's single handedly win games due to the kind of pressure they can put on opposing QB's resulting in turnovers. So I guess from my perspective, I'd rather have a team that is built more towards pass protection than run blocking given the types of defenses that we have to play in our division. We also have to understand what we have on this team which is a highly paid QB with a cannon arm that is not real mobile. Yeah maybe we could get away with a line that is not a great pass protecting if we had a big jen or someone like that but it's just not the reality.

The caveat being if our D can continue to play shut down football then we can afford to play more conservatively on offense and try to win close low scoring games but even that worries me because they've not shown the ability to execute with poise in tight situations very often.

Either way we'll find out real soon since we have the Steelers and Ravens in the next 3 weeks.

[Kazkal]

I hear what you are saying, but I think I disagree about LT being a key run blocking spot - it isn't across the league. You want an athletic guy at LT to handle the type of DE's that play on that side.

Well Left Tackle has been a key run blocking spot for us because we are running much stronger to the left side...When we are ranked 24th in running to the right side maybe change once Andre is ready but truthfully I think whitworth is best LT we have and only way were gonna get a better passblocking LT is to draft one next year.

Do you know how to read? :rolleyes: I said that Whitworth and Collins should have been switched at the START OF TRAINING CAMP. Anyone with even the slightest knowledge about an NFL O-Line knows that the RT is the power spot on the O-Line where the running plays go alot of the time, and Collins is extremely weak when it comes to run blocking, however, run blocking is Whitworth's main strength, so you do the math pal.


But why? Collins is not a upgrade when it comes to passblocking so why stick him in at left tackle? because he weighs 20 lbs less? is that your reasoning to why Collins should be starting left tackle?

I think it's and idea, how many games did Collins Play at left Tackle since he's been drafted. I'm pretty sure it was a couple and he looked decent.
He did look Decent but it was Poor Weather & he had helped from Reggie Kelly,Now he's not even looking decent on right side since preseason nor has he for the past 2 weeks...


I hope Collins improves but I just don't get the love fest atm Whit made a few mistakes but his passblocking wasn't that bad during the whole game ya he gave up two sacks but Carson wasn't constantly getting hit and had enough protection to get four touchdowns...The best runs were also coming from the left side where right only had decent runs with Rolland helping or in place of Collins.

[rajulovesthebengals]

does anyone know when andre smith is gonna be back from that foot injury ???

[TrojanPride]

Well Left Tackle has been a key run blocking spot for us because we are running much stronger to the left side...When we are ranked 24th in running to the right side maybe change once Andre is ready but truthfully I think whitworth is best LT we have and only way were gonna get a better passblocking LT is to draft one next year.

Oh i agree with you 100% and I think I stated just that in the OP. Once the coaches made the decision to draft Andre and play Whit at LT, I said that the way he plays might be the biggest key as to how our season turns out. Clearly you can tell that I was not a big fan of the move. I'm not a Whit hater but he scares me at LT. So this thread wasn't started as means to call for a change right now because I believe he is currently our best option. But I fully intend to watch him closely throughout the year and comment on his play and will happily eat crow if he ends up shutting down most of the DE's he faces this year. If not I'll be the first in line calling for a 1st round LT.

Edit... although I think Collins could be a better option at LT. Yes he's not very good in the running game and he can be bull rushed, in pass pro against the bigger DE's that he will face on the right side but I actually think he might be able to do a better job against the speed rushers. Obviously think it would be a disaster to switch him and Whit at this point in the season. However, if Andre ever takes his starting spot at RT and Whit ends up struggling in pass protecting then that's a potential move that could be made.

[battey60]

I hear you guys as to the run game. I definitely think having a good running game is a key to the season. Still having said that, in order to win this division we have to beat the steelers and the ravens and the only times that we've had any kind of success against those teams is when we've been able to protect Palmer and throw the ball early in the game. If we can do that and get an early lead then we can mix in the run game somewhat effectively. However, if our game plan is just to pound from the beginning of the game I don't think we'll be very successful on offense. And that really goes for all the games I've seen those teams lose recently - they are beat through the air.

We've all seen both the steelers and ravens D's single handedly win games due to the kind of pressure they can put on opposing QB's resulting in turnovers. So I guess from my perspective, I'd rather have a team that is built more towards pass protection than run blocking given the types of defenses that we have to play in our division. We also have to understand what we have on this team which is a highly paid QB with a cannon arm that is not real mobile. Yeah maybe we could get away with a line that is not a great pass protecting if we had a big jen or someone like that but it's just not the reality.

The caveat being if our D can continue to play shut down football then we can afford to play more conservatively on offense and try to win close low scoring games but even that worries me because they've not shown the ability to execute with poise in tight situations very often.

Either way we'll find out real soon since we have the Steelers and Ravens in the next 3 weeks.


I don't care about what those other teams did. This is the AFC north these 2 teams knwo each other like the back of their hand.

Did you know that the team that has rushed for the most yards has won this game has won 9 out of the last ten contests? We stop them from running and we rush for more yards then them we win this game.

If we drop back and pass the ball over 30 times we can just pack it up and call it. Look at the box scores of the last 10 games. Our defense has to stop the run and we need Ben to throw it about 40 times.

[Kazkal]

For me it's just wait and see I know Whitworth isn't going be best passblocker or a shutdown left tackle...But if he is serviceable in pass protection it should be enough IMO....Look at the Steelers their Oline gave up 50+ sacks and they won a superbowl yes Big Ben avoids alot of sacks but he causes Creates some himself with his unwillingness to go down.

Some of the Bigger Left Tackles who seem to get by
Flozell Adams 6'7 338 Cowboys
Bryant McKinnie 6'8 335 Vikings
David Diehl 6'5 320 Cowboys
Jason Peters 6'4 340 Eagles
Marcus McNeill 6'7 336 Chargers
Levi Brown 6'5 325 Cardinals (Listed Right Tackle but when have left handed QB :P thats pretty much a LT)
Max Starks 6'8 345 Steelers (maybe not best player but hey he has two superbowl rings.)

[TrojanPride]

I don't care about what those other teams did. This is the AFC north these 2 teams knwo each other like the back of their hand.

Did you know that the team that has rushed for the most yards has won this game has won 9 out of the last ten contests? We stop them from running and we rush for more yards then them we win this game.

If we drop back and pass the ball over 30 times we can just pack it up and call it. Look at the box scores of the last 10 games. Our defense has to stop the run and we need Ben to throw it about 40 times.

What our D needs to do is another issue.

But let's just take the game that we won in Pittsburg in 2005. Yes we outrushed Pittsburg but do you remember how it went down? We got an early lead by protecting Palmer and throwing the ball. Our big runs came at the end of the game when we had a lead (remember the tough long TD run by Rudi in the 4th quarter?). Pittsburg had to throw a lot because we controlled the game and took the lead.

So of course we'll lose if we just sit back and throw the ball 40 times, while playing from behind with no running game at all but like I said, in order to beat the steelers and ravens I really think you have to set up the run by being successful in the passing game first and in order for that to happen the o-line has to be able to protect him early in the game.

Getting an early lead is the best way to take Pittsburg off its game

[battey60]

What our D needs to do is another issue.

But let's just take the game that we won in Pittsburg in 2005. Yes we outrushed Pittsburg but do you remember how it went down? We got an early lead by protecting Palmer and throwing the ball. Our big runs came at the end of the game when we had a lead (remember the tough long TD run by Rudi in the 4th quarter?). Pittsburg had to throw a lot because we controlled the game and took the lead.

So of course we'll lose if we just sit back and throw the ball 40 times, while playing from behind with no running game at all but like I said, in order to beat the steelers and ravens I really think you have to set up the run by being successful in the passing game first and in order for that to happen the o-line has to be able to protect him early in the game.

Getting an early lead is the best way to take Pittsburg off its game



I agree there. We need to get an early lead. I think all in all our Offense is relatively new personnel wise and I think we can surprise them early. I think we can beat them in the air and on the ground this game.

[TrojanPride]

For me it's just wait and see I know Whitworth isn't going be best passblocker or a shutdown left tackle...But if he is serviceable in pass protection it should be enough IMO....Look at the Steelers their Oline gave up 50+ sacks and they won a superbowl yes Big Ben avoids alot of sacks but he causes Creates some himself with his unwillingness to go down.

Some of the Bigger Left Tackles who seem to get by
Flozell Adams 6'7 338 Cowboys
Bryant McKinnie 6'8 335 Vikings
David Diehl 6'5 320 Cowboys
Jason Peters 6'4 340 Eagles
Marcus McNeill 6'7 336 Chargers
Levi Brown 6'5 325 Cardinals (Listed Right Tackle but when have left handed QB :P thats pretty much a LT)
Max Starks 6'8 345 Steelers (maybe not best player but hey he has two superbowl rings.)

It's more about athleticism than size (although if you look at the guys drafted high to play LT that ended up busting, almost alll of them were bigger). Guys like McKinnie and Brown, while big, were top 10 selections because they had the athleticism and agility to still be considered top tier OT candidates. Jason Peters was a TE in college and was also considered to be very athletic.

There was a reason why a guy like Whitworth, who was an excellent LT in college fell out of the 1st round and why almost every scout saw him as a RT in the NFL and that's because he wasn't viewed to have the athleticism to hack it as NFL LT.

Big Ben brings up a good point - you should build your O-line based around the type of player you have playing QB. Palmer is one of the highest paid QB's in the league. He's a classic drop back pocket passer with limited mobility. We also have one of the higher payrolls dedicated to the WR position. Under those circumstances I just feel like you don't want to build an O-line that strength is not pass blocking, especially at the LT spot. Guys who are similar to Palmer, like Brady, Brees, Peyton have had good pass blocking LT's (Matt Light, Jammal Brown, Tarik Glenn - ever since he's retired, I know they have not been all that pleased with Tony Ugoh but he's stilll only given up 4 sacks in 2 years starting at LT).

And by saying that, it doesn't mean that I find the run game unimportant. I think once we have Andre starting at RT the run game is going to be lights out going that direction and once that happens, I'd rather have a stellar pass blocking guy at LT.

I know I'll probably catch some slack for this but in the future, once Bobbie retires, I'd love to see us move Whit over to RT. Can you imagine our run game with andre and whit next to each other on the right side :eek: Then we can draft a pure pass blocking LT.

[Kazkal]

Big Ben brings up a good point - you should build your O-line based around the type of player you have playing QB. Palmer is one of the highest paid QB's in the league. He's a classic drop back pocket passer with limited mobility. We also have one of the higher payrolls dedicated to the WR position. Under those circumstances I just feel like you don't want to build an O-line that strength is not pass blocking, especially at the LT spot. Guys who are similar to Palmer, like Brady, Brees, Peyton have had good pass blocking LT's (Matt Light, Jammal Brown, Tarik Glenn - ever since he's retired, I know they have not been all that pleased with Tony Ugoh but he's stilll only given up 4 sacks in 2 years starting at LT).


Or you just let Carson keep handing the ball of and watch the run game work keeping him upright that way... vs relying on winning with his arm every game and we've had the small athletic linemen they aren't always going to save carson from getting killed see steinbachs fail in the playoff game...Matt Light & Ugoh haven't exactly been doing best job of protecting Brady & manning...I bet tom would love to have a jumbo line that excelled at run blocking right now.

I know I'll probably catch some slack for this but in the future, once Bobbie retires, I'd love to see us move Whit over to RT. Can you imagine our run game with andre and whit next to each other on the right side Then we can draft a pure pass blocking LT.

I'll pass because I'd prefer Andre to stay at Right Tackle...Some talk on another forum about Roland moving inside which at 6'9 would be surprising but the guy is looking good so may be worth a shot.

[TrojanPride]

Or you just let Carson keep handing the ball of and watch the run game work keeping him upright that way... vs relying on winning with his arm every game and we've had the small athletic linemen they aren't always going to save carson from getting killed see steinbachs fail in the playoff game...Matt Light & Ugoh haven't exactly been doing best job of protecting Brady & manning...I bet tom would love to have a jumbo line that excelled at run blocking right now.

In theory if we could run at will then maybe I'd agree with you but one good game against GB hasn't convinced me that we have that kind of offensive line.

But if we could run at will then we don't need a $100 million dollar QB and expensive WR's.

I kind of think you set up a bit of a false scenario anyway. It's not either throw the ball 40 times with no running game vs. Carson handing the ball off 60% of the time. We need some balance - 2005 is a good example and the line protected him well all year long. The playoff game was a freak accident.

And anyway I'm not saying for us to go small across the board, all I'm saying is that I'd rather have a LT that is a better pass protector than run blocker.


I'll pass because I'd prefer Andre to stay at Right Tackle...Some talk on another forum about Roland moving inside which at 6'9 would be surprising but the guy is looking good so may be worth a shot.

Oops I meant moving Whit over to RG not RT

[Kazkal]

If we drafted a LT and moved Whitworth back to guard next year I'd be fine with that,but atm I can live with his overall play for past 2 games and how he played as LT his rookie season...now that Opinion may change but next year more likely we have take a Oline high...

May it be LG or RG or LT or all the above...I still hope shirly can workout because I love watching him knock Dline over.

[Whatdahel4]

IMO, Whit is a stop gap until Andre can prove/disprove his abilities. IF Andre is the beast we all hope he is, he will move to LT and Whit to RT. My biggest concern for the line is the Gaurd position. Playing teams with a 3-4 we need adgile/speed guys to be able to pull and get to the second level. I can see them keeping Mathis at LG, so far he has shown he has the speed/ability to get down field and block, imagine him as a pulling gaurd. I believe we have the personnel currently on the roster who can make up a solid o-line, just remember, they are all young (except Bobbie), and have talent, they just need to find where they fit. We should know without a doubt, if these are the guys for the future o-line after week 5.