odell stuff--landon overrated

[bradspieser]

http://twinkilling.com/
The podcast that tackles (pardon the pun) such topics can be found in the top right corner of the page.
Anyone going to Georgetown Wednesday?
-Jeff Query

[RavensHater]

I always wonder why no one ever gives Landon any love. He just leads the team in tackles every year.

[fredtoast]

http://twinkilling.com/
The podcast that tackles (pardon the pun) such topics can be found in the top right corner of the page.
Anyone going to Georgetown Wednesday?
-Jeff Query


You're going to have to give me a summary of what he says about Odell and Landon. The damn thing is 22 minutes long, and I gave up after 3 minutes because all he had talked about was himself. I just don't have that much time to waste. does he actually give any interesting information, or is it just his own unsubstantiated opinion?

[bradspieser]

fredtoast,
Two things...
1. Maybe next time I'll wait until the end to talk about myself and other things happening on the site. This is the type of feedback I crave; the last thing I want is for people to turn it off before I make my point. Now for the bad stuff...
2. Are you saying that my opinions to this point have been without substance? I'm pretty sure even my enemies over here would strongly disagree with that nonsense.
Also, is a 22 minute podcast THAT LONG?
Regardless, thanks for giving me 3 minutes.
-Brad

[Shockwave]

I always wonder why no one ever gives *Landon any love.* He just leads the team in tackles every year.Because leading the team in tackles is a terrible stat and doesn't actually make a player good... didn't you know that??

[ShulaSteakHouse]

How are tackles for a LB a "terrible stat?" Are you serious?
Look at the top 5-10 LB's in the league every year, and they'll also lead the league in tackles. There's a reason for that, and a direct correlation.
That stat doesn't lie for LB's. For DT's, DE's or CB's - not that case. It's like wondering why your 2nd baseman only hits 15 HR's a year instead of 40 for those positions.
Landon's a solid guy to have on your roster as essentially a #4 LB. When your preferred or more seasoned LB's are hurt (and someone always is) it's nice to have a fast, smart guy who can play all 3 positions and actually make plays (unlike Caleb Miller who can't seem to for more than one or two games a year).
Just because LJ isn't doing karate chops after every play like Odell, or being silly all the time like Chad, doesn't mean he's not a good player who is improving and coming into his prime.
If Landon had more talent around him the last two seasons, and was used a little differently more often (coverage, blitzes, stunts etc..,) and was a hot dog, he'd get more love I'm guessing.
IF the Bengals' go to the Sb this year, I reckon he very well could be this year's Lance Briggs.
We should be praising players like LJ more often, and wanting more of his character, versus whining over the bum that is Odell non-stop because he does karate chops and has an amazing vertical jump, and "got screwed" for two criminal incidents and the inability to pass an NFL drug test consistently.
Poor baby. Just not a good person, why should I "root" for people like him who don't want to change?
I'll take LJ over Odell any day - because Odell looked like crap last preseason and made as many dumb mistakes his rookie year, as he made plays.
If anyone is overrated, it's Odell.

[booboo2280]

How are tackles for a LB a "terrible stat?" Are you serious?
Look at the top 5-10 LB's in the league every year, and they'll also lead the league in tackles. There's a reason for that, and a direct correlation.
That stat doesn't lie for LB's. For DT's, DE's or CB's - not that case. It's like wondering why your 2nd baseman only hits 15 HR's a year instead of 40 for those positions.
Landon's a solid guy to have on your roster as essentially a #4 LB. When your preferred or more seasoned LB's are hurt (and someone always is) it's nice to have a fast, smart guy who can play all 3 positions and actually make plays (unlike Caleb Miller who can't seem to for more than one or two games a year).
Just because LJ isn't doing karate chops after every play like Odell, or being silly all the time like Chad, doesn't mean he's not a good player who is improving and coming into his prime.
If Landon had more talent around him the last two seasons, and was used a little differently more often (coverage, blitzes, stunts etc..,) and was a hot dog, he'd get more love I'm guessing.
IF the Bengals' go to the Sb this year, I reckon he very well could be this year's Lance Briggs.
We should be praising players like LJ more often, and wanting more of his character, versus whining over the bum that is Odell non-stop because he does karate chops and has an amazing vertical jump, and "got screwed" for two criminal incidents and the inability to pass an NFL drug test consistently.
Poor baby. Just not a good person, why should I "root" for people like him who don't want to change?
I'll take LJ over Odell any day - because Odell looked like crap last preseason and made as many dumb mistakes his rookie year, as he made plays.
If anyone is overrated, it's Odell.




I have said it before and I will say it again. Just because you were the most consitant turd in the litter box doesn't mean you are anything more then a Turd. Landon is not going to be lance Briggs even if the Bengals make the superbowl. Landon is consistantly average. Every team has average, smart players and thats not a knock against Landon, its just the way it is. But, to say People shouldn't want studs at every position is being a bad fan. I desire perfection from the Bengals and I think if you were to ask Coach Lewis he would say the same thing.

Landon may have lead the team in tackles, but tell me, how many were sacks?? How many were behind the line of scrimage? How many were big time stops on a short field? To me these are glaring holes in the defense. There is a reason why Ahmed Brooks was handed the MLB position this year. He is 260 lb beast with alot of upside. How many tackles did he have last year? Does it matter, Nope, why, because things that can't be taught like size and speed on guys with talent will trump someone that is average.

[Shockwave]

How are tackles for a LB a "terrible stat?" Are you serious?
It's called sarcasm.

[jmccracky]

Everyone thinks that football players are not good unless they lead the league in sacks, tackles, touchdown passes, rushing yards, etc...etc. Landon and Justin Smith get a lot of crap. Case in point-

Justin Smith- I know the arguement of he gets a lot of tackles downfield because he misses tackles and that he cannot get to the quarterback. However, he's usually in the top teir of tackles among defensive ends. No one can convince me that he gets all of his tackles 5 to 10 yards down the field. If you are in the top 5 in tackles, then you must be doing something good. Don't get me wrong, I'm frustrated that he is not the 13 to 16 sack guy that we drafted him for. He is not worth $8 million dollars. But I think he plays hard and is an asset to this team.

Is he a bum? NO!
Is he a good player? YES!

Landon Johnson-
We have been spoiled because of Takeo Spikes. TKO is underrated if you ask me. I'd take him back in a heartbeat. Landon is no TKO, BUT, he gets a lot of tackles. Again, you don't get a lot of tackles from making mistakes. I'm sure that he has made a lot of mistakes, and yes he is no Ray Lewis, but he's not the worst. He is a solid football player that I would love to have around for a long time.

[RavensHater]

I always wonder why no one ever gives Landon any love. He just leads the team in tackles every year. Because leading the team in tackles is a terrible stat and doesn't actually make a player good... didn't you know that??
I can't believe that you actually think that is a " terrible" stat. You would think that it would show consistency. Somthing the bengals d has been missing for awhile now. Landon isn't the best player on our D, but he does his job game in and game out. So if you think he is that bad so be it. We all have our own opinions. I think he does a hell of a job.

[kevin]

Enough about Odell. He got in a party fight in in June, money exchanged, charges dropped, NFL Commisioner was aware of it, suspension stands........WE HAVE OTHER LINEBACKERS. ...As for Johnson, he flys to the football. Plays sideline to sideline as he did in college. Not a great athlete but gives you 110 % every play. Hustle. Thats what you get out of Johnson. I like him. WE should be able to field a good starting linebacker crew in 2007, even without Odell, who we only had in 2005.

[fredtoast]

fredtoast,
Two things...
1. Maybe next time I'll wait until the end to talk about myself and other things happening on the site. This is the type of feedback I crave; the last thing I want is for people to turn it off before I make my point. Now for the bad stuff...
2. Are you saying that my opinions to this point have been without substance? I'm pretty sure even my enemies over here would strongly disagree with that nonsense.
Also, is a 22 minute podcast THAT LONG?
Regardless, thanks for giving me 3 minutes.
-Brad


I didn't make the connection between your name and the name on the podcast when I posted. No, 22 minutes is not too long if you make some good points and back them up with more than just personal opinion.. The thing is that I have never heard of you before. Some day when I have more time I'll give you a longer listen to better guage your quality. As for now you are just one of the hundred million guys on the Internet who think they are experts.

As for Landon being overrated I don't see how that is possible when he has never started a season as a starter (unless you count the year he shared time with Pollack). So for not being a starter I think he is pretty good. In '05 when he played more SOLB he had 6 stuffs which ranked him near the top of the league among LBs. Last year he played more WOLB which put him in coverage more. Still he made a huge play in the last Steeler game when he stripped Parker of the ball at our one yard line. we should have won that game, and if we did Landon would have been credited with a game winning play to put us in the playoffs. Also as most people have said Tackles are a very important stat for LBs. The fact is that defense is about shedding blockers, getting to the ball, and making tackles. The guys that get blocked make fewer tackles than the guys that don't get blocked. I agree that Landon got ran over a lot his rookie season, but he was playing MLB at the weight of a big WR (215). He has bulked up quite a bit since then. I am hoping that he takes his game to the next level this year, but for now since very few people claim he is a star it is hard to say that he is overrated.

[doitagain]

How are tackles for a LB a "terrible stat?" Are you serious?
Look at the top 5-10 LB's in the league every year, and they'll also lead the league in tackles. There's a reason for that, and a direct correlation.
That stat doesn't lie for LB's. For DT's, DE's or CB's - not that case. It's like wondering why your 2nd baseman only hits 15 HR's a year instead of 40 for those positions.
Landon's a solid guy to have on your roster as essentially a #4 LB. When your preferred or more seasoned LB's are hurt (and someone always is) it's nice to have a fast, smart guy who can play all 3 positions and actually make plays (unlike Caleb Miller who can't seem to for more than one or two games a year).
Just because LJ isn't doing karate chops after every play like Odell, or being silly all the time like Chad, doesn't mean he's not a good player who is improving and coming into his prime.
If Landon had more talent around him the last two seasons, and was used a little differently more often (coverage, blitzes, stunts etc..,) and was a hot dog, he'd get more love I'm guessing.
IF the Bengals' go to the Sb this year, I reckon he very well could be this year's Lance Briggs.
We should be praising players like LJ more often, and wanting more of his character, versus whining over the bum that is Odell non-stop because he does karate chops and has an amazing vertical jump, and "got screwed" for two criminal incidents and the inability to pass an NFL drug test consistently.
Poor baby. Just not a good person, why should I "root" for people like him who don't want to change?
I'll take LJ over Odell any day - because Odell looked like crap last preseason and made as many dumb mistakes his rookie year, as he made plays.
If anyone is overrated, it's Odell.



Good reply, and except for opinion of C. Miller, i can't disagree with a thing. The contrast between Landon and Odell seems to be a defining issue, and even a defining dilemma, not only for the Bengals, but for the rest of the teams in the NFL. What makes a player valuable to his respective team? Is it physical ability, physical skills, attitude, intelligence; and, of course, the list goes on. I can't help but recall the '71 Dolphins with the so called "no name defense". They went 17-0 that season, on their way to winning the SB, without losing a single regular season game that year. It's true that Nick Buoniconti was eventually inducted into the HOF, but for the most part that defensive team was known for their great teamwork, as opposed to their being chock full of superstars, which they weren't. Bottom line, if i'm attempting to put together a winning team, i would select 22 L. Johnson type players (no-nonsense, get the job done athletes) over 22 O. Thurman type players (physically, very gifted athletes), 8 days a week. Will a team be more successful with players who are all team players and all on the same page, or will the team with a few key impact players, who don't fit the team's chemistry, be more likely to end the year with more victories? Put another way, perhaps, what good is it to have physical talent (e.g. Rickey Dixon and Akili Smith), if that's all you can bring to a team? It's one reason that i love this sport as much as i do. There are so many measures of a truly valuable team player, and that's what makes it so very difficult to put a really quality team on the field. It's so much more than talent, and even with the prerequisite football skills, the really good players still need to mesh as a team...

[Section313]

Personally, I'll take Landon. Yes, Odell made some big plays when he was here, but he also drove me nuts with some of his boneheaded moves. With the offense the Bengals have they don't need the defense to win them games. They just need a consistently decent defense. Considering Landon has been a backup/emergency starter for his first few years in the league I have no problem with the production he has given. Better yet, we can expect him to be present day in and day out. Plays injured and hasn't had the off-field issues like others on this team.
Just curious, what would the salary differences have been for this year assuming Odell was still playing?

[bradspieser]

Peoples's,
I apologize for not being speedier with a response...I owed you at least that much. Unfortunately, I can't give my in depth reply right now because I'm walking out the door on my way to Columbus. I've enjoyed your opinions, but I disagree with most of them. Talk soon
Brad

[Jom112]

I agree with Fred's take that Landon can't be over-rated because he is a backup essentially. The Bengals signed Ed Hartwell in hopes that he would start. Unfortunately he's not 100% so Landon will be at the beginning of the season.
LJ is a backup LB, no more no less. I think it's crazy that people are comparing him to Lance Briggs or Odell Thurman. Talent wise he's not there and probably never will be. I do like the player though and think it's great to have a durable LB on the roster to fill in when our starters get hurt/suspended. But I don't like seeing him be penciled in as the starter at the beginning of the season.
Landon did lead the team in tackles, but name another LB on the team that was healthy enough to have more? Everyone else missed games or didn't get the playing time...

[BengalTrucker]

Landon is a backup at best. He is not starting LB quality in the NFL.
It is good he lead the team in tackles, it is not good he can't make a short yardage stop, a tackle behind the line, or get good pressure on the QB.
All of that points to one thing. He is a back up and if we have to depend on him our defense is in trouble again.
Odell is a difference maker on defense. He makes plays, 5 INTs as a rookie, over 100 tackles, and some of them were for a loss.
Here are the stats. Odell Thurman as a ROOKIE. Landon Johnson 3rd year.
Tackles 148 132
INT 5 ties rookie record 1
Sacks 1.5 .5
FF 4 none on ST 3 one on ST
FR 0 0
Landon in his best year is less of an effective player than Odell was his first year.
I like Landon as a back up and ST guy, and I hope he does very well there.
I would take Odell Thurman over him in a heart beat. Because Odell will make a difference on game day.

[Shockwave]

I always wonder why no one ever gives *Landon any love.* He just leads the team in tackles every year. Because leading the team in tackles is a terrible stat and doesn't actually make a player good... didn't you know that??
I* can't believe that you actually think that is a " terrible" stat.* You would think that it would show consistency.* Somthing the bengals d has been missing for awhile now.* Landon isn't the best player on our D, but he does his job game in and game out.* So if you think he is that bad so be it.* We all have our own opinions.* I think he does a hell of a job.
It's called sarcasm... read up 2 posts and you would know that already.

[Shockwave]

Landon did lead the team in tackles, but name another LB on the team that was healthy enough to have more?* Everyone else missed games or didn't get the playing time...
But Landon was also injured all season... he just was able to fight through it.

[RavensHater]

I always wonder why no one ever gives Landon any love. He just leads the team in tackles every year. Because leading the team in tackles is a terrible stat and doesn't actually make a player good... didn't you know that??
I can't believe that you actually think that is a " terrible" stat. You would think that it would show consistency. Somthing the bengals d has been missing for awhile now. Landon isn't the best player on our D, but he does his job game in and game out. So if you think he is that bad so be it. We all have our own opinions. I think he does a hell of a job.
It's called sarcasm... read up 2 posts and you would know that already.
I didn't see that at the time I posted. No need to get all mad.

[Jom112]

Landon did lead the team in tackles, but name another LB on the team that was healthy enough to have more? Everyone else missed games or didn't get the playing time...
But Landon was also injured all season... he just was able to fight through it.
I don't know of any players that played 16 games that weren't banged up...

[bradspieser]

To quote Nice Guy Eddie, "Alright, first things ********* last." ...
Peoples,
I never said Landon Johnson was a bad player, nor did I say everyone else considers him a great player; I merely said he's overrrated. Overrrated only means he's not as good as he's generally regarded, and from where I'm sitting Landon Johnson receives too much credit simply because he pumps out 100 tackle seasons. Am I nuts, or have I heard Marvin Lewis state how overrated the statistic of "tackles" is? Now, clearly, it's not an empty statistic, but it can be misunderstood. For instance, consider the Bengals' shaky defense, and how many extra plays they've afforded the opponent over the last few years...how many more oppotunities did Landon have to pick up extra tackles?
Anyway, time to chime in on the relevant comments that were made since my inital post...
From shulasteakhouse: " IF the Bengals' go to the Sb this year, I reckon he very well could be this year's Lance Briggs."
My response: That was a joke, right? Hilarious stuff, man!
shulasteakhouse: "We should be praising players like LJ more often, and wanting more of his character, versus whining over the bum that is Odell non-stop because he does karate chops and has an amazing vertical jump, and "got screwed" for two criminal incidents and the inability to pass an NFL drug test consistently."
Me: It's beyond important to have high character guys on the team, but it's unrealistic to think ANY team has 53 "good guys" on the roster. Plus, you rip Odell, but let me axx you this: What would your reaction be towards Employee No. 51 if the Bengals won the 2005 Super Bowl, knowing full well that they wouldn't have had a chance without Thurman wreaking havoc? That's what I thought. Stop lying to yourself.
shulasteakhouse: "I'll take LJ over Odell any day - because Odell looked like crap last preseason and made as many dumb mistakes his rookie year, as he made plays."
Me: Odell looked like crap because he wasn't physically (and probably mentally) ready to play in games. And saying that he made as many mistakes as big plays,well, I don't like name-calling, but that's just a stupid thing to say. First, can you prove such an idiotic claim? Didn't think so. Second, let me ask you, why do you think turnovers were way down last season? Part of the answer is obvious: Odell wasn't out on the field, flying around and disrupting the other team. Odell is a difference maker.
booboo2280: "I have said it before and I will say it again. Just because you were the most consitant turd in the litter box doesn't mean you are anything more then a Turd. Landon is not going to be lance Briggs even if the Bengals make the superbowl. Landon is consistantly average."
Me: Thank you. Now let's make-out (or whatever)
fredtoast: "As for Landon being overrated I don't see how that is possible when he has never started a season as a starter."
Me: fredtoast, everyone in life is rated somehow, whether it's me at work, you as a parent, or Green Day's last album. So everyone can be judged to see if they are fairly rated, or over/underrated. At least that's what I think. Here's an example: I think Anna Kournikova is the most underrated athlete of all time, while I think Peyton Manning is overrated. Now obviously I am not saying that Kournikova is anywhere near Manning's greatness, but I am saying that neither is fairly rated. Landon Johnson, at least on talk radio and on message boards, is wildly overrated.
fredtoast: "Still he made a huge play in the last Steeler game when he stripped Parker of the ball at our one yard line."
Me: I forgot all about that play, or at least that Landon stripped Parker. Besides that, can anyone tell me one game-altering play he's made since his arrival in 2004?
doitagain: "I can't help but recall the '71 Dolphins with the so called "no name defense". They went 17-0 that season, on their way to winning the SB, without losing a single regular season game that year. It's true that Nick Buoniconti was eventually inducted into the HOF, but for the most part that defensive team was known for their great teamwork, as opposed to their being chock full of superstars, which they weren't."
Me: How many different ways can one say "You're wrong?" In this case, we have several. Get out your calculators, boys and girls...
1. It was the '72 Dolphins, not '71. Compared to your other crap, this is not a big deal.
2. But Buoniconti DID make the H.O.F., how can you sidestep that? He was an elite player player in his prime, and he'd been to six Pro Bowls before that season! Going to the Hall of Fame is a really big deal, you know? The Bengals franchise is forty years old and haven't sent a single defensive player to Canton. Something to consider, guy.
3. If memory serves, the nickname of "No Name Defense" was something that took on a life of it's own, and something that probably wouldn't exist today, considering the statistical research that is readily available to schmucks like us. I mean, Buoniconti, DB **** Anderson, DL Bill Stanfill and DB Jake Scott combined for 21 Pro Bowls in their careers. And except for Anderson, all four of them went to Pro Bowls before 1972 (i.e., they were already established stars, and not unknown also-rans.). I win.
doitagain: "Bottom line, if i'm attempting to put together a winning team, i would select 22 L. Johnson type players (no-nonsense, get the job done athletes) over 22 O. Thurman type players (physically, very gifted athletes), 8 days a week."
Me: I don't even know why I argue with people like you. I'm not kidding, this comment enraged me. Well, it enraged me until I realized that you aren't the only bozo that believes crap like this. Listen, if 22 Landon Johnsons were to play against 22 Odell Thurmans the score would be something like...wait, hold on...I need to feed the computer machine the necessary details (height, weight, talent, etc.) to project an accurate score...wait, here goes...the computer machine predicted a score of Odell 381, Landon 0, which easily surpassed Georgia Tech's 222-0 thumping of Cumberland. Look, holmes, talent wins, plain and simple. And I understand you can't have a full roster of Henrys and Odells, and that you need a large number of high character dudes, but I'll say this: I'd rather have the talented scumbags than 53 Landon Johnsons, and I think every head coach would agree with me; after all, a few 6-10 seasons means they are out of a job, and Landon Johnson is a 6-10-type player.
Also, there are 7 days in a week. Dope.

Section313: "Yes, Odell made some big plays when he was here, but he also drove me nuts with some of his boneheaded moves."
Me: His "Holy S**t" plays far outweighed his boneheaded plays. Which is why he was worth the on-field headaches. Plus, don't you think he would cut down on his bonehead plays in years two and three? It's a moot point, obviously, but I gotta believe he would have made great strides in that department.
That is all for now.
-Brad