Biggest issues with Religion...

[kevin28_1962]

Originally Posted by CigarMatt

Out of context or not, that scripture appears to say you should pray behind closed doors.

WOW!
The application and context of the scriupture says do not pray like the hypocrites to seem pious. The reason they are praying is so that other men see them and they can be seen as a righteous person. Their intent for the prayer is not to be praying to God. Jesus is saying that you should be praying to God so that you are communicating and appeasing God, not to appease other men.

[CigarMatt]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

WOW!
The application and context of the scriupture says do not pray like the hypocrites to seem pious. The reason they are praying is so that other men see them and they can be seen as a righteous person. Their intent for the prayer is not to be praying to God. Jesus is saying that you should be praying to God so that you are communicating and appeasing God, not to appease other men.

Does he, or does he not, say to pray in private? If someone says "you should not be like these guys, but instead do this" it really doesn't matter the context, he's still saying you should do something. In this case, Jesus is saying you should pray in private (which is actually how it was taught to me in church when I was younger anyway. More conservative Christian denoms still follow that).

[Bengals1985Fan]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

So then you're fine with no prayer in school, no teaching of 'intelligent design" and no Christian imagery on government buildings? Just answer the question instead of tap dancing around it.

i did answer your question

[philhos]

Originally Posted by Beaker

Sadly, it is true of all who follow religion. Not one follower of any religion has gotten there by thinking freely.

And you are wrong. I HAVE gotten there by thinking freely. I may have grown up in the church and knew quite a bit, but as I got older, I started to question and think for myself and made the choice I made to enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ and to go to the church that I go to.

I'm not some blind follower.

Originally Posted by Beaker

It is all due to dogma passed down from followers of the previous generation. No one follows religion out of ideas they came up with themselves.

With that logic, no one then chooses to enter or not enter into religion. If people enter into religion because of thoughts and ideas passed down, then people reject religion because of thoughts and ideas passed down.

Your own logic, then, also says that people who reject religion do not do so by thinking freely. It is all due to 'logic' and 'rationale' passed down from rejecters of the previous generation. No one rejects religion out of ideas they came up with themselves.

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

So the you're fine with no institutionalized prayer in school, no teaching of "intelligent design", no Christan imagery/symbology in/on government buildings, etc....


After all, you just said you don't want it forced on people.

No institutionalized prayer in school? Fine with me. Just don't reject ALL prayer in school. Allow students to pray if they want to.

No teaching of "intelligent design?" Fine, as long as there's no evidence supporting it. If there is, it should be mentioned.

No Christian imagery/symbology in/on government buildings is NOT forcing religion on people.

Originally Posted by Beaker

My contention is that religion is passed on by the parents taking the kids to church and sunday school before they have the choice to attend....or the brain development to decide for themselves whether what is being told to them makes much sense. All little kids want to please their parents and other adults, so if the adults assure them its the truth, they tend to go along. It isnt until they mature that they start to question. At that point, some leave, some stay...but initially they didnt choose.

But, again, some people still choose religion because of their free thinking - questioning, researching, etc. Then there are those who grew up in churchless households who end up "getting saved." They didn't grow up in the church and have "religion" passed down to them.

Again, as I said in response, not all people who follow religion do so blindly.

Originally Posted by CigarMatt

Does he, or does he not, say to pray in private? If someone says "you should not be like these guys, but instead do this" it really doesn't matter the context, he's still saying you should do something. In this case, Jesus is saying you should pray in private (which is actually how it was taught to me in church when I was younger anyway. More conservative Christian denoms still follow that).

Praying in private doesn't necessarily mean praying in your closet. It means it's between you and God.

[Danno]

Originally Posted by philhos

The simplest solution would be just to not place undue limits on passing out funds. If giving to a church, don't keep the church from doing church things. If giving to a muslim organization, don't keep the muslim org from doing muslim things.

That is a fair POV.

Now personally, I'd rather we just not dole out funding entirely, but I know that is both the fiscal conservative in me and entirely unrealistic this day and age.

No, I wasn't saying that certain laws were because of people's beliefs. What I was saying was that they weren't passed because "God said so."

Ah see, I didn't know you were being clever and wanted the exact language. I can actually use this!!!


That aside, of course I wasn't speaking literally. I mean, there MAY have been a culture with that exact wording in their code of laws, but I'm not looking them up. But you knew that, you were just being Phill

[philhos]

Originally Posted by Danno

That is a fair POV.

Now personally, I'd rather we just not dole out funding entirely, but I know that is both the fiscal conservative in me and entirely unrealistic this day and age.

I'm all for not doling out funding if that means that we're not giving any money to the government to dole out.

Originally Posted by Danno

Ah see, I didn't know you were being clever and wanted the exact language. I can actually use this!!!


That aside, of course I wasn't speaking literally. I mean, there MAY have been a culture with that exact wording in their code of laws, but I'm not looking them up. But you knew that, you were just being Phill

I don't know what you're talking about.

[CigarMatt]

Originally Posted by philhos

Praying in private doesn't necessarily mean praying in your closet. It means it's between you and God.

In my view, a public spectacle of prayer is much the same. Take athletes who pray on the field, to me, they are doing the exact same thing, even if they are just holding hands with their heads bowed and in silence. Prayer in school follows that same guideline to me. If the school is holding a moment for prayer, then whoever set that up is displaying piety. Whoever uses that moment, in public, is displaying piety. The same thing condemned in the passage Kevin quoted.

Everything is open to interpretation, and that is mine.

Seriously, I have nothing against Christianity, I just have issues with what some Christians are trying to do. Maybe this is coming from a combination of my conservative Christian upbringing and my religious studies, but it seems to me like the Christian right is trying too hard to display their devotion through the government and the people. The reason this all started in the '50's helps to show that a little. Making 'In God We Trust' official on the money and adding God to the Pledge, just to separate ourselves from the Atheist Communists...this is the attitude that really began this whole movement, separation, and it seems to me like it is exactly what Jesus spoke against in that passage.

[kevin28_1962]

Originally Posted by CigarMatt

In my view, a public spectacle of prayer is much the same. Take athletes who pray on the field, to me, they are doing the exact same thing, even if they are just holding hands with their heads bowed and in silence. Prayer in school follows that same guideline to me. If the school is holding a moment for prayer, then whoever set that up is displaying piety. Whoever uses that moment, in public, is displaying piety. The same thing condemned in the passage Kevin quoted.

Everything is open to interpretation, and that is mine.

Seriously, I have nothing against Christianity, I just have issues with what some Christians are trying to do. Maybe this is coming from a combination of my conservative Christian upbringing and my religious studies, but it seems to me like the Christian right is trying too hard to display their devotion through the government and the people. The reason this all started in the '50's helps to show that a little. Making 'In God We Trust' official on the money and adding God to the Pledge, just to separate ourselves from the Atheist Communists...this is the attitude that really began this whole movement, separation, and it seems to me like it is exactly what Jesus spoke against in that passage.

I'm going to side with the scholars who have doctorates and/or masters degree in theology who have spent much time and gone very far in depth on the subject.

[CigarMatt]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

I'm going to side with the scholars who have doctorates and/or masters degree in theology who have spent much time and gone very far in depth on the subject.

Objective scholars? Or Biblical scholars? There is a difference you know.

Also, some denoms of Christianity feel this way as well, but they are the more conservative branches.

Anyway, sorry I can't be a sheep and I like to think about things and research, and study, and come up with my own conclusions, that's why I'm not a member of any organized religion though. My relationship with the divine is mine, and not guided by someone else.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

I'm going to side with the scholars who have doctorates and/or masters degree in theology who have spent much time and gone very far in depth on the subject.

And many of them would agree with matt.

[CigarMatt]

Originally Posted by RICHMONDBENGAL_07

And many of them would agree with matt.

I know several who do, but I wasn't going to mention that part. so much of theology is open to interpretation, you would be hard pressed to find any definitive answer, unless of course you are being subjective and only looking for an answer that agrees with yours.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Originally Posted by CigarMatt

I know several who do, but I wasn't going to mention that part. so much of theology is open to interpretation, you would be hard pressed to find any definitive answer, unless of course you are being subjective and only looking for an answer that agrees with yours.

I know you weren't, that's why I did. Sorry Kev, but there are a lot of scholarly types with doctorates and such that don't actually believe one way or another, they simply find it interesting. Such as Matt and I, well I don't have a doctorate, but do find it interesting.

[CigarMatt]

Originally Posted by RICHMONDBENGAL_07

I know you weren't, that's why I did. Sorry Kev, but there are a lot of scholarly types with doctorates and such that don't actually believe one way or another, they simply find it interesting. Such as Matt and I, well I don't have a doctorate, but do find it interesting.

Oh, I don't have a doctorate, just enough study of the topic that if done in a formal setting would account for one, lol.

[philhos]

Originally Posted by CigarMatt

Anyway, sorry I can't be a sheep and I like to think about things and research, and study, and come up with my own conclusions, that's why I'm not a member of any organized religion though. My relationship with the divine is mine, and not guided by someone else.

Same here. But, I can't help but think you're accusing kevin of being a sheep simply because he mentioned other scholars (which would be proof of doing research, no?).

[CigarMatt]

Originally Posted by philhos

Same here. But, I can't help but think you're accusing kevin of being a sheep simply because he mentioned other scholars (which would be proof of doing research, no?).

Not saying it merely because of a mention of other scholars, just the appearance of "these guys have a degree, so I'm going to listen to what they have to say." I admittedly love reading articles on these topics, but just something about the way he said it struck a nerve. Maybe a bit of an over-reaction, but at that time I was already irritated with him for some of his remarks earlier in the thread and just allowed myself to get a little snarky.

[Griever]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

WOW!
The application and context of the scriupture says do not pray like the hypocrites to seem pious. The reason they are praying is so that other men see them and they can be seen as a righteous person. Their intent for the prayer is not to be praying to God. Jesus is saying that you should be praying to God so that you are communicating and appeasing God, not to appease other men.

yeah i gotta agree with Kev here, Jesus was talkin about being loud and boisterous with your prayer, for the full intent of seeking attention. The pharisees werent about prayer, they were about getting the attention that they sought. You can pray how you want, just make sure the intent is for prayer, and not for the attention. I have no problem with athletes being on one knee with their head bowed, if they are truly praying and not doing it for the attention

[CigarMatt]

Originally Posted by Griever

yeah i gotta agree with Kev here, Jesus was talkin about being loud and boisterous with your prayer, for the full intent of seeking attention. The pharisees werent about prayer, they were about getting the attention that they sought. You can pray how you want, just make sure the intent is for prayer, and not for the attention. I have no problem with athletes being on one knee with their head bowed, if they are truly praying and not doing it for the attention

Not saying I actually have a problem with it, just saying it can be seen that way, the attention grabbing way.

I will fight hard against prayer in schools, but the moment of silence that they did each day during some of my school years, perfectly fine with it. I'm not really as anti-religion as you all think, really I just like to argue.

[Griever]

Originally Posted by CigarMatt

Not saying I actually have a problem with it, just saying it can be seen that way, the attention grabbing way.

I will fight hard against prayer in schools, but the moment of silence that they did each day during some of my school years, perfectly fine with it. I'm not really as anti-religion as you all think, really I just like to argue.

no i know, i was just throwing my 2 cents in

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Originally Posted by Bengals1985Fan

i did answer your question

You gave an answer, but not to the question I answered. It's ok though, your refusal to answer is an answer in itself.

Originally Posted by philhos

No institutionalized prayer in school? Fine with me. Just don't reject ALL prayer in school. Allow students to pray if they want to.

And they are allowed to pray in school. There was a bible study group at my high school that met every lunch period. No one's trying to prevent that kind of thing.

No teaching of "intelligent design?" Fine, as long as there's no evidence supporting it. If there is, it should be mentioned.

There isn't any evidence, yet people still keep trying to get it taught.

No Christian imagery/symbology in/on government buildings is NOT forcing religion on people.

You misstated this a bit but I know what you're saying. However religious symbology on government buildings implies an endorsement of that religion, tacitly at the very least. I'm sure the people who have no problem with it would have a major problem with verses from the Koran or Talmud being displayed on a court house. No religion on government buildings discriminates against no one and promotes no one, as it should be.





[/quote]

[Bengals1985Fan]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

You gave an answer, but not to the question I answered. It's ok though, your refusal to answer is an answer in itself.




And they are allowed to pray in school. There was a bible study group at my high school that met every lunch period. No one's trying to prevent that kind of thing.





There isn't any evidence, yet people still keep trying to get it taught.





You misstated this a bit but I know what you're saying. However religious symbology on government buildings implies an endorsement of that religion, tacitly at the very least. I'm sure the people who have no problem with it would have a major problem with verses from the Koran or Talmud being displayed on a court house. No religion on government buildings discriminates against no one and promotes no one, as it should be.

[/quote]


you can't just deal with the fact that I'm not answering the way you want me to, so you can trying to use my words against me, won't bother me, just makes you look desperate to try and start something

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Originally Posted by Bengals1985Fan

you can't just deal with the fact that I'm not answering the way you want me to, so you can trying to use my words against me, won't bother me, just makes you look desperate to try and start something

No, I just want you to actually answer the question. If you think your answers could be used against you then maybe the problem isn't my question, but your inconsistent beliefs.

[Bengals1985Fan]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

No, I just want you to actually answer the question. If you think your answers could be used against you then maybe the problem isn't my question, but your inconsistent beliefs.

well, do you want me to say what should be taking place, or what?

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Since you seem to need a refresher allow me to review. First you said this;

Originally Posted by Bengals1985Fan

no one forced me to accept Jesus into my life as Lord and Savior, its a choice, its not forced down your throat

and in response to Beaker you said this;

Originally Posted by Bengals1985Fan

Beaker you are beyond the word inept, I choose to follow Jesus, not because of the "dogma" that you say was forced upon me, but because I choose it upon my own free will, I choose to live with Jesus in my life, so if you wish to believe that I don't think for myself, so be it. But its a choice to follow my Lord and Savior, not forced.

These posts caused me to ask this;

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

So the you're fine with no institutionalized prayer in school, no teaching of "intelligent design", no Christan imagery/symbology in/on government buildings, etc....


After all, you just said you don't want it forced on people.

To which you responded with this;

Originally Posted by Bengals1985Fan

thats not my call on what the schools do, I'm just saying Religion doesn't require force-feeding

Notice you only answered one of my three questions and you didn't even answer it. I asked if you were fine with no prayer in school. You stated that's not your call, except I didn't ask if it was your call, I asked if you thought it was fine.

So I further tried to get an actual answer of you with his;

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

So then you're fine with no prayer in school, no teaching of 'intelligent design" and no Christian imagery on government buildings? Just answer the question instead of tap dancing around it.

So in answer to this;

Originally Posted by Bengals1985Fan

well, do you want me to say what should be taking place, or what?

I want you to actually answer the question I asked. Again, if you fear it will be used against you then you must feel that your answer will be contradictory. I eagerly await your next post in which you fail to answer the questions.

[Griever]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

Since you seem to need a refresher allow me to review. First you said this;




and in response to Beaker you said this;




These posts caused me to ask this;



To which you responded with this;





Notice you only answered one of my three questions and you didn't even answer it. I asked if you were fine with no prayer in school. You stated that's not your call, except I didn't ask if it was your call, I asked if you thought it was fine.

So I further tried to get an actual answer of you with his;




So in answer to this;




I want you to actually answer the question I asked. Again, if you fear it will be used against you then you must feel that your answer will be contradictory. I eagerly await your next post in which you fail to answer the questions.

oooh oooh pick me, can i answer for him?

am i fine with no institutionalized prayer in schools? yeah im fine with it, prayer shouldnt be forced, because prayer should be something you choose to do, not something you are required to do

the teaching of intelligent design? ive been in public school my whole life (well except for 1st, 2nd, and 8th grade, of which i was in a christian school) but while going to a public high school, Bible was one of the electives, that we could choose to take if we wanted to, in which creationism was taught

as to the imagery on public grounds, im not sure where i completely stand on this, its not really a big deal for me either way, so i guess thats why i dont have a position on it

hope that was a sufficient answer

[Bengals1985Fan]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

So then you're fine with no prayer in school, no teaching of 'intelligent design" and no Christian imagery on government buildings? Just answer the question instead of tap dancing around it.

i firmly believe in seperation of church and state, if a child wishes to pray at school, then let the said child do so. i do believe that certain instances of church and state should be decided by the state and not the federal goverment, key example is the Ten Commandments are posted outside a courthouse that has been there before the birth of atheism and other religons in those areas should remain and not be removed because they feel that Christianty is being forced upon them, and those who say they are force-feed the Ten Commandments is like saying someone forced me to look at Playboy or Hustler magazine, its a choice, no one forced you to look at it.