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  #51  
Old 04-08-2012, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by Millz View Post
Was listening to Ken Broo yesterday evening, and he reminded me of something. Mike Brown doesn't have to be pro-active in free agency or reaching out to the fans or whatever to sell more seats and get new season-ticket holders. He will make money regardless due to the NFL way of revenue sharing.
I along with several other posters post about this too.

The Bills signed Mario Williams and their ticket sales are going up...Great! We get 1/32 of that!
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  #52  
Old 04-08-2012, 02:31 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by BigPapaKain View Post
Ticket sales in Cleveland surge every offseason too...right up until about week 4. Of course that's usually because they've lost 3 of those 4.

Whereas in Cincinnati, our stadium won't sell out in the middle of a 6 game winning streak and playoff run. Apples and oranges. I know Bills fans; they're not fickle. They just laugh everything off.
To be fair, the Bengals front office basically destroyed ticket sales in the offseason.

A ) They got negative PR from the Palmer situation with the way they handled it initially. It worked out well, but saying that they wouldn't trade him no matter what burned fans.

B ) Coming off the lockout, most fans were starving for football. Then, we lost Joseph. They should have franchise tagged him. They had the cap space.

C ) Then, most fans on this board knew the offensive line needed addressed. The Bengals tried to sign Lutui who failed his physical. Then, they stuck with Livings and we couldn't run the ball all season. At the end of the day, this was what was responsible for our season ending with 9 wins and not 11 or so.

D ) Trading OchoCinco was a good move...but losing both him and Palmer left the Bengals with no face of the franchise. The public likes to see a face of the franchise. We have that now with AJ Green and Dalton. Perhaps Atkins too.

E ) Going into the season with some $30+ million in cap space. Fans view that as a franchise not trying to win, but trying to make a profit. And at that point, Atkins, Green, and Dalton extensions weren't a consideration as they were all unknowns. Now that they performed, that is just a convenient excuse to string the fanbase along longer with the lack of spending.

Last edited by THE PISTONS; 04-08-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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  #53  
Old 04-08-2012, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by djam View Post
If you like your team, go support them. I remember Redskins fans acting the same way when they signed Haynesworth. A lot of fans on here were about ready to jump ship because we didnt sign him. Look how that turned out.

Dalton
Green
Atkins
Dunlap
Gresham
Shipley
Whitworth
Sims
Coming off a winning season....

Not enough to sell tickets? That's not a Mike Brown problem. FA was thin this year and we dont want to put too much money into a single player. We did well to get who we did. Wharton will help a lot lot.
I remember that. I am not a big free agent guy it's nice but rarely does it work out...I like to retain our own top free agents and fill in depth and role players through free agency.
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  #54  
Old 04-08-2012, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

When I started this post, I simply meant that we had "the most" to spend heading into this year. Since the rookie scale is fixed, I don't see any excuse for this franchise to spend money on some "big name" signings.
I was not advocating Mario Williams, nor do I feel we should put all of our investment in one player considering the chances of injury.
However, to miss out on a Kamerion Wimbley (and not by much) , and to not sign either an experienced safety (few in fa) or cornerback, is not what Bengals fans were hoping for.
There are many people in this chat room that defend Mike Brown's slow approach. They use last year as some indicator that "Mike Brown knows better". Or "Mike Brown has a plan."
So his plan was to have Jason Campbell get hurt, have Al Davis die, and Hue Jackson call him in desperation to trade 2 picks for Carson Palmer. Some of you suggest that his "plan" was brilliant.
NO! Mike Brown got lucky that it all worked out. He was being hard headed at the fans expense, in the name of being a business man in his own mind.
Around the league by fellow owners, the Bengals organization is not taken seriously.
I still go to every game, and we continue to buy seats because the Bengals are who we cheer for.
However, if Mike Brown wants to sell seats and suites, and try to put the best team on the field he can, he should have signed some proven talent as we had more than enough cap space.
I don't care about exact players, and that is not the arguement.... We had the cap space, the NFL cash flows plenty for Mike Brown to secure Knowlton Estate ownership.
Mike Brown's "plan" happened last year for all of you front office apologists... What about his "plan" to have a winning team and playoff winner over the past 25 seasons?
At least in Buffalo, the owner is trying.
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  #55  
Old 04-08-2012, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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If you like your team, go support them. I remember Redskins fans acting the same way when they signed Haynesworth. A lot of fans on here were about ready to jump ship because we didnt sign him. Look how that turned out.

Dalton
Green
Atkins
Dunlap
Gresham
Shipley
Whitworth
Sims
Coming off a winning season....

Not enough to sell tickets? That's not a Mike Brown problem. FA was thin this year and we dont want to put too much money into a single player. We did well to get who we did. Wharton will help a lot lot.
As the owner and GM, every problem is Mike Brown's problem!

And over 1/3 of NFL players were free agents this year. It was not thin by anyone's standards. You don't have a clue.
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  #56  
Old 04-08-2012, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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I remember that. I am not a big free agent guy it's nice but rarely does it work out...I like to retain our own top free agents and fill in depth and role players through free agency.
Who could argue with the Bengals track record of success over the past 20+ years...it must be working.

Just because other teams like the Steelers and Ravens draft really well and retain these players and don't have cap space to sign free agents...doesn't mean that the Bengals shouldn't upgrade in free agency.

Outside of the 4 Pro Bowl players this year...and Gresham probably shouldn't have went, the last draft pick to make the Pro Bowl for the Bengals was Carson Palmer.

Building through the draft is fine, IF you draft the right players. For nearly 2 decades, we didn't. Hopefully things are starting to change, but the same system is in place where the coaches do the majority of the scouting, and the same front office structure is in place.
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  #57  
Old 04-08-2012, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by djam View Post
If you like your team, go support them. I remember Redskins fans acting the same way when they signed Haynesworth. A lot of fans on here were about ready to jump ship because we didnt sign him. Look how that turned out.

Dalton
Green
Atkins
Dunlap
Gresham
Shipley
Whitworth
Sims
Coming off a winning season....

Not enough to sell tickets? That's not a Mike Brown problem. FA was thin this year and we dont want to put too much money into a single player. We did well to get who we did. Wharton will help a lot lot.
First off, Haynesworth is garbage...BUT hypothetically, had we signed a $10 million free agent, the guys that we drafted would have still got drafted. It's not like if we signed whatever free agent that we would have gave our draft picks away.

We had near $30 million of cap space going into last season. We could have franchise tagged Joseph for 1 season and atleast tried to trade him. Instead he walked for nothing. We could have signed a Guard. We don't necessarily have to make the big $10 million signing. A $5 million a year Guard would have upgraded us greatly last year. Instead, we did nothing and started Livings and started a rookie QB behind a line that couldn't run block.

Hopefully some of the guys on that list start producing. Dunlap is the main player I'm pointing at. He has a ton of potential and many fans on the board talk about him like his is a 12+ sack a year guy, and he could be...but he has to go out and do it.

Contrast him with Aldon Smith of the 49ers who had 14 sacks as a rookie.
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  #58  
Old 04-08-2012, 03:50 PM
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bengals Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
Who could argue with the Bengals track record of success over the past 20+ years...it must be working.

Just because other teams like the Steelers and Ravens draft really well and retain these players and don't have cap space to sign free agents...doesn't mean that the Bengals shouldn't upgrade in free agency.

Outside of the 4 Pro Bowl players this year...and Gresham probably shouldn't have went, the last draft pick to make the Pro Bowl for the Bengals was Carson Palmer.

Building through the draft is fine, IF you draft the right players. For nearly 2 decades, we didn't. Hopefully things are starting to change, but the same system is in place where the coaches do the majority of the scouting, and the same front office structure is in place.
The past 20 years are gone do why not move on. Coaches should be heavily involved in scouting because they have to coach the players. If I was a coach I dare so this time of year would be very exciting and I would love going to see the different prospect and figuring how I could use them within my strategy.

Obviously things are not just like they use to be and it is plain to see unless you just do not want to. It is very apparent that the staff has more say in personel than they have had in a very long time. If things had not changed the Mallett would be QB of this team.

Changes are happening and part of recovery is getting past the denial.
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  #59  
Old 04-08-2012, 03:52 PM
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bengals Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by Bhoney View Post
As the owner and GM, every problem is Mike Brown's problem!

And over 1/3 of NFL players were free agents this year. It was not thin by anyone's standards. You don't have a clue.
Numbers and quality are completely different. Yeah 600 free agents and the # was that high for good reason.
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  #60  
Old 04-08-2012, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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The past 20 years are gone do why not move on. Coaches should be heavily involved in scouting because they have to coach the players. If I was a coach I dare so this time of year would be very exciting and I would love going to see the different prospect and figuring how I could use them within my strategy.

Obviously things are not just like they use to be and it is plain to see unless you just do not want to. It is very apparent that the staff has more say in personel than they have had in a very long time. If things had not changed the Mallett would be QB of this team.

Changes are happening and part of recovery is getting past the denial.
Just like changes were coming in 2005...then what happened in the years after that?

The only changes this past season were Peyton Manning got hurt and we played the NFC West which had 3 horrible teams. Take those events out and we are 6-10 or 7-9.

Have we hired a GM yet? We still have the same management team in place as we have had for the past 20+ years good or bad.
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  #61  
Old 04-08-2012, 04:12 PM
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bengals Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
Just like changes were coming in 2005...then what happened in the years after that?

The only changes this past season were Peyton Manning got hurt and we played the NFC West which had 3 horrible teams. Take those events out and we are 6-10 or 7-9.

Have we hired a GM yet? We still have the same management team in place as we have had for the past 20+ years good or bad.
Marvin has made it clear he does not want a mediator. 20 years blah blah blah. Like a broken record you are.

Get over it already. The constant whining is pathetic.
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  #62  
Old 04-08-2012, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Marvin has made it clear he does not want a mediator. 20 years blah blah blah. Like a broken record you are.

Get over it already. The constant whining is pathetic.
You call a GM a Mediator? So you are essentially saying that if we hire a GM, that Mike Brown would make the deicisions?

Nice spin...Yeah...let's look past no playoff wins in the past 20 years. I'm sure Steelers fans are looking at it as they haven't been to the Super Bowl in 1 year and choose not to look at winning 2 Super Bowls in 7 years and appearing in 3.

You just shorten the time scale to make the statistic look better. And even at that, we haven't even been competitive in any of our playoff appearances in the past 7 years.

What is the goal?
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  #63  
Old 04-08-2012, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
You call a GM a Mediator? So you are essentially saying that if we hire a GM, that Mike Brown would make the deicisions?

Nice spin...Yeah...let's look past no playoff wins in the past 20 years. I'm sure Steelers fans are looking at it as they haven't been to the Super Bowl in 1 year and choose not to look at winning 2 Super Bowls in 7 years and appearing in 3.

You just shorten the time scale to make the statistic look better. And even at that, we haven't even been competitive in any of our playoff appearances in the past 7 years.

What is the goal?
And you just lengthen the time frame to make the statistic look worse.

Did you know that the Bengals have only made the playoffs 10 times in the last 1,000,000 years!?! This is a true statement.

To ignore the trajectory of the Bengals in recent years and arbitrarily lump the 3 playoff appearances in the 22 years is attempting to manipulate the perception of the statistics.

The Bengals have made the playoffs 10 times in their history. 1970, 1973, 1975, 1981, 1982, 1988, 1990, 2005, 2009, 2011

Each run of the playoffs comes roughly in a 7 year stretch (with the exception of '90):
'70, '73, '75
'81, '82, '88
'05, '09, '11

If the Bengals go to the playoffs 1 time in the next 4 years, we will "equal" the playoff run of the 1981, 1982, 1988, & 1990.

So, the Bengals have the opportunity under Mike Brown & Marvin Lewis to make a historic run in Bengal history.

Time will tell.

Last edited by mulligan; 04-08-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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  #64  
Old 04-08-2012, 06:10 PM
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bengals Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
You call a GM a Mediator? So you are essentially saying that if we hire a GM, that Mike Brown would make the deicisions?

Nice spin...Yeah...let's look past no playoff wins in the past 20 years. I'm sure Steelers fans are looking at it as they haven't been to the Super Bowl in 1 year and choose not to look at winning 2 Super Bowls in 7 years and appearing in 3.

You just shorten the time scale to make the statistic look better. And even at that, we haven't even been competitive in any of our playoff appearances in the past 7 years.

What is the goal?
Owner equals owner. That means he has ultimate say about everything. Do you honestly believe that a team that has a GM that the owner can not over ride a decision he makes? He signs his paycheck so yes he can.

I offered zero statistics so you are talking smack for nothing. Please explain what statistics I offered in regard to this at any point. Yeah exactly you can not because I didn't. I simply stated that your broken record recording of the last 20 years is worn out and tired.

Let me spell it out very simply for you..........if you do not like it then move on. You CHOOSE to be a fan of the Cincinnati Bengals. The Cincinnati Bengals and or Mike Brown did not come and solicit your fanship. You willingly offered it. Mike Brown offered you nothing to become a fan you choose to. It was a choice of free will and you have that same choice of free will to move on if you are not happy.
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  #65  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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This stat is skewed it's 100% of the season ticket holders from last year which took a nose dive. The average reader assumes 100% of seats have been renewed and the stadium will be filled.

A report came out last year that said season ticket renewals were only around 40% capacity...So it wouldn't take much.
EXACTLY! That is what I was saying when many were so pumped about " someone in ticket sales said 99% of season tickets renewals are done" . YEAH ! I guess 99% a ALL THE FAITHFUL 40% who saw some glimmer of hope with an exciting a young team and Gruden and Zimmer back...OF COURSE those would renew. I mean I was one of those 40%, AND I LIVE 635 MILES AWAY!!! "Skewed"?...YOU BET!
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  #66  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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EXACTLY! That is what I was saying when many were so pumped about " someone in ticket sales said 99% of season tickets renewals are done" . YEAH ! I guess 99% a ALL THE FAITHFUL 40% who saw some glimmer of hope with an exciting a young team and Gruden and Zimmer back...OF COURSE those would renew. I mean I was one of those 40%, AND I LIVE 635 MILES AWAY!!! "Skewed"?...YOU BET!
If 99% of season ticket owners have re-newed as of March 28th, 2012, season ticket sales should be up from last year based on more than 5 months left until the season begins.
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  #67  
Old 04-08-2012, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
Who could argue with the Bengals track record of success over the past 20+ years...it must be working.

Just because other teams like the Steelers and Ravens draft really well and retain these players and don't have cap space to sign free agents...doesn't mean that the Bengals shouldn't upgrade in free agency.

Outside of the 4 Pro Bowl players this year...and Gresham probably shouldn't have went, the last draft pick to make the Pro Bowl for the Bengals was Carson Palmer.

Building through the draft is fine, IF you draft the right players. For nearly 2 decades, we didn't. Hopefully things are starting to change, but the same system is in place where the coaches do the majority of the scouting, and the same front office structure is in place.
Issue is,the Steelers and the Ravens don't go whole hog in FA so they will have money to retain their young players. The Bengals have the cap space now to retain their young players,but if they go out and load up on a bunch of high dollar/multi-year contracts in FA,then they won't be able to. However,I would expect that this year,like last year,we will see 2-3 more guys get extensions done.
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  #68  
Old 04-08-2012, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
And you just lengthen the time frame to make the statistic look worse.

Did you know that the Bengals have only made the playoffs 10 times in the last 1,000,000 years!?! This is a true statement.

To ignore the trajectory of the Bengals in recent years and arbitrarily lump the 3 playoff appearances in the 22 years is attempting to manipulate the perception of the statistics.

The Bengals have made the playoffs 10 times in their history. 1970, 1973, 1975, 1981, 1982, 1988, 1990, 2005, 2009, 2011

Each run of the playoffs comes roughly in a 7 year stretch (with the exception of '90):
'70, '73, '75
'81, '82, '88
'05, '09, '11

If the Bengals go to the playoffs 1 time in the next 4 years, we will "equal" the playoff run of the 1981, 1982, 1988, & 1990.

So, the Bengals have the opportunity under Mike Brown & Marvin Lewis to make a historic run in Bengal history.

Time will tell.
Trajectory in recent years? We make the playoffs then win 4 games the next season typically.

Also, when we do make the playoffs we aren't competitive in that game.

By your comments, you are happy with playoff appearances. Which is fine. We can all measure success differently.

Last edited by THE PISTONS; 04-08-2012 at 11:49 PM.
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  #69  
Old 04-08-2012, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Issue is,the Steelers and the Ravens don't go whole hog in FA so they will have money to retain their young players. The Bengals have the cap space now to retain their young players,but if they go out and load up on a bunch of high dollar/multi-year contracts in FA,then they won't be able to. However,I would expect that this year,like last year,we will see 2-3 more guys get extensions done.
I'm not saying they need to sign a Mario Williams or Nicks. I'm in the camp that DOESN'T want one guy making that much.

What I question is how the money is spent.

Examples:
Wharton + Bell for a combined $4-5 million vs 1 Guard for $5 million. What upgrades the team more?

Clements and Allen for a combined $10+ million vs Joseph/Finnegan for $10 million. What upgrades the team more?
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Issue is,the Steelers and the Ravens don't go whole hog in FA so they will have money to retain their young players. The Bengals have the cap space now to retain their young players,but if they go out and load up on a bunch of high dollar/multi-year contracts in FA,then they won't be able to. However,I would expect that this year,like last year,we will see 2-3 more guys get extensions done.
Well and it's because they draft well. If they didn't land good talent through the draft...they would likely go out and spend more in free agency. There are many ways to build a team.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:52 PM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

Bengals signed somebody to put people in seats, and it worked,too; when they signed T.O. Training camp attendance reached all-time highs, and the tickets sold out even though they managed a dismal 4-12 record. Let's try something different, which is what they appear to be doing with the draft in mind on the already acquired players.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:21 AM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

Ok, so how about a free agent who isn't just popular on twitter, but has actual performace, and youth. Not an old guy who signs a 1 year deal. In any event, our record was a disappointment that year and that was due to Carson and Chad Ochocinco.
This is a business that cointinues to bring in larger and larger revenues. I feel that there were plenty of free agents that could fill seats and perform.
My main point is that there were many options and we had plenty of salary cap. And, the end result as in Buffalo would be bigger crowds.
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  #73  
Old 04-09-2012, 12:41 AM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Ok, so how about a free agent who isn't just popular on twitter, but has actual performace, and youth. Not an old guy who signs a 1 year deal. In any event, our record was a disappointment that year and that was due to Carson and Chad Ochocinco.
This is a business that cointinues to bring in larger and larger revenues. I feel that there were plenty of free agents that could fill seats and perform.
My main point is that there were many options and we had plenty of salary cap. And, the end result as in Buffalo would be bigger crowds.
Don't forget the defense and the running game.
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  #74  
Old 04-09-2012, 10:17 AM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Ken Griffey Jr. put butts in the seats for a little while as well. Then people smartened up and realized it was silly money to spend and that Jr. alone does not win ball games.
Forget about up and comers like Adam Dunn, Austin Kearns, Jason LaRue, Brandon Phillips, Sean Casey, etc. who were brought in during the Griffey era in order to try and compete with St. Louis?

What about manager Jack McKeon?

No one knew he would shred a hammy.... and injured multiple times.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

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Bills see surge in season-ticket sales

Updated: April 6, 2012, 7:25 PM ET
Associated Press

BUFFALO, N.Y. -- Joel Thompson gave up his Buffalo Bills season tickets two years ago. Now he's back on the bandwagon.
All it took to get Thompson to "Bill-lieve," as fans put it in Buffalo, was a span of three days last month. That was the time it took prized free-agent defensive end Mario Williams to arrive in town to negotiate and sign a whopping six-year, $100 million contract.
"When Mario came in for a visit, I got together with the guys, and said, 'All right, if this happens, if he signs, we'll go back,'" Thompson recalled Friday. "And sure enough, that's what happened."

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The day Williams signed, Thompson sent an email to his former Bills ticket representative to lock up six season tickets. And the purchase was completed a week later.
"This looked legit," said Thompson, who previously had season tickets for eight seasons -- from 2002-09 -- in which the Bills failed to make the playoffs. "Adding Mario, I thought, 'Maybe this team can win sooner than later.'"
Thompson is not the only one buying in.
The Bills' offseason spending spree -- they also signed free-agent defensive end Mark Anderson and re-signed top receiver Stevie Johnson -- is already paying off.
CEO Russ Brandon said the team already has sold 4,320 new season-ticket packages, and added that renewal orders are coming in at the fastest pace in 15 years.
Brandon credits the spike to the team's offseason splashes and a growing optimism around town that the Bills just might be turning the corner after missing the playoffs for 13 consecutive seasons -- the NFL's longest active postseason drought.
"With the additional signings, it certainly was a huge boost," Brandon said, before also crediting the work of general manager Buddy Nix and coach Chan Gailey. "And one of the things that's really resonated is that people feel the team is headed in the right direction under the guidance of Buddy and Chan. ... People seem very pleased that the arrow's pointed up."
Nix and Gailey are entering their third seasons on the job. The Bills are coming off a 6-10 finish in which they got off to a surprising 5-2 start before losing eight of nine.
The surge in sales comes a year after the Bills sold 37,355 season tickets, the team's lowest total since 2001 and about 7,000 fewer than the previous year. The Bills also failed to sell out their final three games last season.
Part of the blame for the drop fell on the NFL lockout, which wiped out much of the offseason, the prime time for teams to generate ticket sales.
This offseason, the Bills have made it a priority to increase sales. Buffalo already has one of the NFL's lowest average ticket prices at about $53. Aside from not raising ticket prices this season, the Bills also dropped prices in two separate sections -- including a family section -- of Ralph Wilson Stadium to spur sales.
Brandon won't make projections, but considers 50,000 season tickets as a realistic goal for the market.
Sales and free-agent signings are one thing. For Brandon and the Bills, the next step is to prove they're capable of winning on the field.
"Yeah, we're in a prove-it business," Brandon said. "We continue to work as an organization in order to get back to where we need to be."
Thompson is upbeat about the Bills, though wary because he's been disappointed before. The first time Thompson and his friends purchased season tickets was in the spring of 2002, days after Buffalo acquired quarterback Drew Bledsoe in a trade with New England.
Bledsoe lasted three seasons with the Bills before being cut.
"Obviously, we're a bit prone to impulse, perhaps," Thompson said. "But the thing for me is this team doesn't seem like it's far off from being good."
If mike brown had down this with nicks or williams. we would have been out of Free agency early.. and this move would have been viewed as a seat filler(and people would be hating on mike brown)...

1 player a championship team does not make especially after how bad the bills where last year.


this move and moves like it are basically seat fillers big name marquee's to bring people to the stadium even though the 1 player isnt gonna drastically help improve the chances for the bills to win with their many many holes.

A.K.A. false hope
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