DB Contracts

[sparky151]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

This just is not true at all.

Where do you people come up with this stuff?

Huh? I thought you paid attention to the NFL but apparently you don't. A few players were signed by teams to deals after the 2010 season and before the lockout began. Those players were signed on terms that were generally regarded as cheaper than they would have gotten in the absence of the lockout. The owners were trying to keep money out of the players hands so they would cave sooner. So the signings were done on terms favorable to the teams. That is when the Bengals should have signed Joseph, before the date for tagging. But that would have been proactive, which is not in character for Mike Brown and the Bengals.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by sparky151

Huh? I thought you paid attention to the NFL but apparently you don't. A few players were signed by teams to deals after the 2010 season and before the lockout began. Those players were signed on terms that were generally regarded as cheaper than they would have gotten in the absence of the lockout. The owners were trying to keep money out of the players hands so they would cave sooner. So the signings were done on terms favorable to the teams. That is when the Bengals should have signed Joseph, before the date for tagging. But that would have been proactive, which is not in character for Mike Brown and the Bengals.

Yeah, I guess I missed that. Please tell me which top dollar free agenst signed at a discount before the lockout.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

I was just going to let this thread be, but for whatever reason I literally chuckled a bit after reading this line.

"Stranger danger! Stranger danger!!!!"

I've never heard anyone refer to a NFL FA as a "stranger".

"Stranger" was inspired by a Marvin quote from everyone's favorite Bengals.com article, "Model model"

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-...d-c2395cfe6f2d
"You win by developing your own players and not overpaying for a guy you’re not sure how he’s going to work out until six, eight, 10 games down the road and maybe not then," head coach Marvin Lewis said last month. "That’s what’s been proven.

"There have been very few guys that have done that and it’s worked out to be productive. I believe we have to continue to draft. Do we need to supplement that with players? Yeah, and we’re going to try to do that. But what does aggressive mean? Aggressive doesn’t mean overpay and get stuck with both a bad contract and an average player. It doesn’t fit what we want to do."

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

So Boling was 10th in total starts among 34 second round picks.

That is top third. That is better than should be expected.

Congratulatrions. You just proved yourself wrong. Boling was well above average for a 4th round pick, yet you claimed that he should have shown more.

I was going to do the homework to prove you wrong, but it looks like you saved me the time. Boling was one of the better 4th round picks, not below average at all.

There is a lot of obscuring of the original arguement going on.

The original point someone made was that Boling may be capable of starting next season (thus justifying the Bengals not signing 2 starting Guards and thus not having to draft a Guard in the 1st Round.)

Then, I believe you made the point that Boling will imrprove going into year 2...

I just don't think it is sound to rely on him. I'm ok with him competing for a starting spot, but I think the odds are against him being the answer.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Dr1441 doesn't think that NFL players improve from their rookie season.

That is why he jumped in this argument to begin with.

How much did Livings improve from year to year here? Relying on him and not signing a better option to atleast compete with him probably detailed our season from reaching 10 or 11 wins.

Maybe with another good Guard last year we wouldn't have backed into the playoffs with losses like we did and would have actually won and earned a birth.

Yeah...we've made the playoffs a few times recently, but we haven't been competetive in ANY of those games.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

How much did Livings improve from year to year here? Relying on him and not signing a better option to atleast compete with him probably detailed our season from reaching 10 or 11 wins.

Maybe with another good Guard last year we wouldn't have backed into the playoffs with losses like we did and would have actually won and earned a birth.

Yeah...we've made the playoffs a few times recently, but we haven't been competetive in ANY of those games.

Kyle Cook was an undrafted free agent in 2007 by the Vikings, waived, signed onto Bengals practice squad for a full year, then played special teams and injured in 2nd year, and then won starting job in 2009.

It seems evident that Cook DID improve from practice squad in 2007 to starter in 2009.

I fully support the signing of Wharton. Ultimately, I see Boling developing into Wharton's replacement (or at least competing for) at the conclusion of his contract.

Bell provides good depth and competitiion in training camp. I foresee Bell ultimately beating Otis Hudson onto the roster. Experience trumps youth probably.

I support the Bengals drafting either a dominant RG (DeCastro or Glenn) in 2012. If the Bengals don't get one of these guys, I can see Bell competing with Boling for the starting RG spot.

[dr1441]

Originally Posted by mulligan

What leads you to believe that Boling won't be anything more than a serviceable backup?

I see Boling definitely competing for the LG role when Wharton leaves. If he can beat McGlynn out of the gate at RG initially, I foresee him improving in strength and understanding in the next couple years.

It took Kyle Cook a couple years to get up-to-speed, correct? I have also read that Rich Braham didn't start when he became a Bengal.



This was your original servicable argument. Preceeded by a long list prodominantly filled with 1st & 2nd round players (Geathers & Peko included).



Most posters would be delighted if many arguments would evolve from the following topics:

• Dead Horse - The Bengals should have retained Joseph.
• Dead-er Horse - MB is an inept owner.
• Dead-er-er Horse. No playoff wins in 22 years.

I do agree with you on your personal attacks. Didn't this get you kicked off the boards? Surprise, surprise.

This really is too easy because now you and Fred are just grasping for other arguments and straws to go in circles with.

Fred said in post 170 "Almost every guy who is a starter in the NFL started as a rookie, right?" in a condescending and smart *** manner so I simply made a list where 3/4 of the starters on our team actually started a game their rookie year.

That lead to you chiming in with asking for 6 starters that started from the 4th round last year.

I posted more then 6 just looking at the list you provided off the top of my head.

That in turn lead to another defensive argument because you were both proven wrong, you wanted rookies in the 4th round that started as many games as Boling.

So I posted another list that I did a little research on and came up with about 10 of them.

That lead to another set of excuses about how Boling is in the top half blah blah blah........

Little did you want to discuss the games those 4th round guys played in but rather only started.

Boling is in the bottom half of games that he played in because he was benched for his horrible play.

But lets see what kind of excuse you guys can come up with now.

And ya I got suspended, not the first or maybe last time ever.

That is what happens when you get power hungry mods who don't like if you dont have your face to their butt like you 24/7.

I did my time now I am here to make your weak arguments look even more pathetic then they are to start with.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by dr1441

This really is too easy because now you and Fred are just grasping for other arguments and straws to go in circles with.

Fred said in post 170 "Almost every guy who is a starter in the NFL started as a rookie, right?" in a condescending and smart *** manner so I simply made a list where 3/4 of the starters on our team actually started a game their rookie year.

That lead to you chiming in with asking for 6 starters that started from the 4th round last year.

I posted more then 6 just looking at the list you provided off the top of my head.

That in turn lead to another defensive argument because you were both proven wrong, you wanted rookies in the 4th round that started as many games as Boling.

So I posted another list that I did a little research on and came up with about 10 of them.

That lead to another set of excuses about how Boling is in the top half blah blah blah........

Little did you want to discuss the games those 4th round guys played in but rather only started.

Boling is in the bottom half of games that he played in because he was benched for his horrible play.

But lets see what kind of excuse you guys can come up with now.

And ya I got suspended, not the first or maybe last time ever.

That is what happens when you get power hungry mods who don't like if you dont have your face to their butt like you 24/7.

I did my time now I am here to make your weak arguments look even more pathetic then they are to start with.

You don't even know what we are talking about. Someone said that Boling would not improve next year and I asked why. You were so clueless that you went off on some wild tangent that proved NOTHING bout the original point. In fact the evidence that you provided PROVED that there were plenty of current starters on the bengals that were not regular starters as rookies. You proved my point for me because you could not even figure out what we were talking about.

So let's get back on track. Why do you think Boling will not improve from his rookie season to next year?

[Zombie Deadcat]

You might be right and there is some logic to this.

I disagree however that he got burned with Hall. I have always preferred Hall to Joseph thinking he was more consistent and tougher. Hall got injured last year but there is not reason to expect he won't be back this year and earn every bit of his new contract. He's not Peyton Manning who robbed the Colts for a year.

Originally Posted by Luvnit2

There is no doubt in hindset losing JJ was a mistake. Personally, my thought is MB did not think he could afford two top tier corners so he made a decision at time to go with cb with solid injury background. We all know that decision blew up in his face with Leon got hurt.

But, he did sign Leon to a long term deal and he gets burned by it. We all taking multi million sof dollars MB has to invest in some of these guys. He signed Bryant to big bucks and got burned. I don't know about you, but I would tread slowly before throwing out big bucks to players I really don't know. Yes, he screwed up on JJ, but I can see why they were concerned. Paying both Leon and JJ would tie up a ton of cap space and not allow them to do other things.

[Zombie Deadcat]

Originally Posted by dr1441

I'm saying Boling won't ever be anything more then a serviceable backup.

Kinda like you and Fred with your arguments. You only have serviceable arguments.

Had to throw in a personal attack since that is all I do.

Make sure you bring a weak argument, some made up lame excuses and a reason why Mike Brown isn't an inept owner to the next argument since that is all you do.

I have to jump in and disagree. Linemen always take time to develop. We put a lot of time into Stacey Andrews and eventually made him a starter for the Eagles. He wasn't the greatest player but I think linemen more than any other position can be developed or can grow into their position.

[dr1441]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

You don't even know what we are talking about. Someone said that Boling would not improve next year and I asked why. You were so clueless that you went off on some wild tangent that proved NOTHING bout the original point. In fact the evidence that you provided PROVED that there were plenty of current starters on the bengals that were not regular starters as rookies. You proved my point for me because you could not even figure out what we were talking about.

So let's get back on track. Why do you think Boling will not improve from his rookie season to next year?

Maybe you should watch your condescending statements and questions more then.

Because all I did was answer one of you questions. Then answered another. Then answered another.

Then proved you wrong completely.

But you took the lawyer approach which you are equipped with and tried to turn it around and say that it was a positive.

Do me a favor Fred, take the 4th rounders of last year draft and go to NFL.com and type each players name in.

Next make a list of how many of them played in more then 5 games like Boling because he was benched for his horrendous play. You will see how he truly stacks up.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by mulligan

Kyle Cook was an undrafted free agent in 2007 by the Vikings, waived, signed onto Bengals practice squad for a full year, then played special teams and injured in 2nd year, and then won starting job in 2009.

It seems evident that Cook DID improve from practice squad in 2007 to starter in 2009.

I fully support the signing of Wharton. Ultimately, I see Boling developing into Wharton's replacement (or at least competing for) at the conclusion of his contract.

Bell provides good depth and competitiion in training camp. I foresee Bell ultimately beating Otis Hudson onto the roster. Experience trumps youth probably.

I support the Bengals drafting either a dominant RG (DeCastro or Glenn) in 2012. If the Bengals don't get one of these guys, I can see Bell competing with Boling for the starting RG spot.

You are neglecting to look at the fact that a RG in the Bengals system needs to be huge and powerful. Boling is more suited for LG. I fear you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Just because we signed these guys, doesn't mean they can be used interchangeably.

I suspect this is a moot point because we will likely draft a Guard. Down the road, I do see Boling replacing Wharton though hopefully.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by dr1441

Maybe you should watch your condescending statements and questions more then.

Because all I did was answer one of you questions. Then answered another. Then answered another.

Then proved you wrong completely..

I am sorry, but I am used to communicating with people who are smart enough to recognize sarcasm. Anyone who understands the basic concept of "context" would have understood what I was talking about in that post, but I see that is asking too much of you.

You never proved me wrong because you do not even know what we were discussing. The issue was Boling not improving from his rookie year to his next season. So why are you continuing to iignore this question?

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

You don't even know what we are talking about. Someone said that Boling would not improve next year and I asked why. You were so clueless that you went off on some wild tangent that proved NOTHING bout the original point. In fact the evidence that you provided PROVED that there were plenty of current starters on the bengals that were not regular starters as rookies. You proved my point for me because you could not even figure out what we were talking about.

So let's get back on track. Why do you think Boling will not improve from his rookie season to next year?

I don't think that someone said that Boling wouldn't improve from year to year. That was read into just like everything else. You guys/girls basically read meaning into posts and then argue with yourselves about meaning that wasn't there.

Boling likely won't improve enough to be a quality starting Guard in one offseason. I doubt that he morphs into a top 40 Guard in one season. So, we would have essentially downgraded the position.

Could it happen? Anything could happen. Should the Bengals put all of their chips on that happening? No.

[sparky151]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Yeah, I guess I missed that. Please tell me which top dollar free agenst signed at a discount before the lockout.

I was about to point out how you are goal post moving with your new "top dollar" qualifier but since there is an obvious example, I'll just throw it out. Champ Bailey finished his contract with the 2010 season. He signed a new 4 year deal on February 22, 2011 shortly before the end of the 2010 league year. His deal was 4 years, up to 43 million and is front loaded. His first year cap number is 11.5 mil then drops to 9.5 mil per year depending on incentives achieved. His cap number in the last year of his old contract was 13 mil. So his 2012 salary is 4 mil less than his 2010 salary. Pretty significant discount wouldn't you say?

Champ is old and past his prime but Denver still considers him their #1 CB and has been trying to replace Sheldon Brown rather than Champ.

Now please tell me how the Bengals futile attempt to apply the uncapped RFA tag to Jonathan Joseph in a capped year was not a screwup.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Zombie Deadcat

I have to jump in and disagree. Linemen always take time to develop. We put a lot of time into Stacey Andrews and eventually made him a starter for the Eagles. He wasn't the greatest player but I think linemen more than any other position can be developed or can grow into their position.

Agreed.

This whole arguement is silly.

A ) The Bengals need a massive RG. That isn't Boling.
B ) This whole arguement is to justify the Bengals not signing a RG by saying it's Boling. We'll likely draft a RG in the draft thus making this a moot point.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by dr1441

Do me a favor Fred, take the 4th rounders of last year draft and go to NFL.com and type each players name in.

Next make a list of how many of them played in more then 5 games like Boling because he was benched for his horrendous play. You will see how he truly stacks up.

Among O-linemen (who don't play on coverage teams like many other position players) Boling played more games than David Arkin (0) and James Brewer (0), but less than Chris Hairston (13).

So he is above average for 4th round O-linemen.

If you look at the '10 draft Boling played in more games than Jaques McClendon and Jason Fox, but less than Joe Hawley and Bruce Campbell.

'09 draft..more than Jonathan Luigs, Troy Kropog, Rich Ohrnberger, Seth Olson,and Tyrone Green, but less than T.J. Lang

'08....More than Cody Wallace, Mike McGlynn, Shawn Murphy, and Tony Hillis but less than Kory Lichtensteiger, Anthony Collins, David Hale and Josh Sitton

I could go on and on, but the fact show that a 4th round O-lineman who plays in five games as a rookie is right at average or a little better.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by sparky151

I was about to point out how you are goal post moving with your new "top dollar" qualifier but since there is an obvious example, I'll just throw it out. Champ Bailey finished his contract with the 2010 season. He signed a new 4 year deal on February 22, 2011 shortly before the end of the 2010 league year. His deal was 4 years, up to 43 million and is front loaded. His first year cap number is 11.5 mil then drops to 9.5 mil per year depending on incentives achieved. His cap number in the last year of his old contract was 13 mil. So his 2012 salary is 4 mil less than his 2010 salary. Pretty significant discount wouldn't you say?.

Uh, no, I don't see any discount at all. Thirty-two year old DBs never get contracts as high as when they are in there 20's.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Among O-linemen (who don't play on coverage teams like many other position players) Boling played more games than David Arkin (0) and James Brewer (0), but less than Chris Hairston (13).

So he is above average for 4th round O-linemen.

If you look at the '10 draft Boling played in more games than Jaques McClendon and Jason Fox, but less than Joe Hawley and Bruce Campbell.

'09 draft..more than Jonathan Luigs, Troy Kropog, Rich Ohrnberger, Seth Olson,and Tyrone Green, but less than T.J. Lang

'08....More than Cody Wallace, Mike McGlynn, Shawn Murphy, and Tony Hillis but less than Kory Lichtensteiger, Anthony Collins, David Hale and Josh Sitton

I could go on and on, but the fact show that a 4th round O-lineman who plays in five games as a rookie is right at average or a little better.

This is a silly debate.

Would Boling have played had Bobbie Williams not been suspended?

[dr1441]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

This is a silly debate.

Would Boling have played had Bobbie Williams not been suspended?

My point exactly.....

Fred will always try to manipulate his argument when he doesn't have a valid one when you ask him to do something.

When we first started this you asked for players that started A(ONE) game............ you got that.

Then you asked for players who started more games.............you got that.

I am asking you to come up with a list Fred of players that played in more games. Were on the field more then Boling who was tossed to the side after 5 games of ineptness.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

This is a silly debate.

Would Boling have played had Bobbie Williams not been suspended?

Agreed. It is very silly. We have no idea how mauch any of those other 4th round O-linemen played due to injury or talent.

The only point I have ever tried to make about Boling is that most NFL players impsove from their rookie season, but none of the Bolimg detractors will explain why they think Boling will not improve. Instead they just spin out these other meaningless facts about how good other 4th round )-linemen are as rookies.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Agreed. It is very silly. We have no idea how mauch any of those other 4th round O-linemen played due to injury or talent.

The only point I have ever tried to make about Boling is that most NFL players impsove from their rookie season, but none of the Bolimg detractors will explain why they think Boling will not improve. Instead they just spin out these other meaningless facts about how good other 4th round )-linemen are as rookies.

The knock on Boling before he was drafted, was that he lacked NFL caliber strength. After one season with an NFL strength and conditioning program, that's still the knock on Boling. He was yanked from the starting lineup for that reason, before Bobbie's suspension was even up.

[Zombie Deadcat]

You want a reason Boling might not improve...............chicken wings.

Why do most lineman struggle.......................chicken wings.

What hurt our 1st round right tackle early in his career.............chicken wings.


To help you out a bit Fred, and not that you need help, hasn't Boling played in more games than said starting right tackle, Andre Smith, did in his rookie season? Here's a first rounder who still needed a couple years before figuring out how to play the line in the NFL.

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Agreed. It is very silly. We have no idea how mauch any of those other 4th round O-linemen played due to injury or talent.

The only point I have ever tried to make about Boling is that most NFL players impsove from their rookie season, but none of the Bolimg detractors will explain why they think Boling will not improve. Instead they just spin out these other meaningless facts about how good other 4th round )-linemen are as rookies.

[gardner30]

Danny Watkins, the 1st Rd Guard selected by the Eagles, also got benched early in the season for horrid play.

Doesn't mean a thing.

Watkins came back later in the year and played pretty well.

I think Boling could play well too.

The massive RG thing was Bratkowski scheme.

I think they want lineman that can move at every position now, even RG, for the WCO.

[Zombie Deadcat]

The knock on Steinbach was that he was a smaller guard. But dude always got downfield and greatly assisted our running game. Hasn't been the same since he left. I don't care how much a lineman weighs if he can do the job. Sometimes a thinner more athletic guy like Steinbach can do more.

Originally Posted by gardner30

Danny Watkins, the 1st Rd Guard selected by the Eagles, also got benched early in the season for horrid play.

Doesn't mean a thing.

Watkins came back later in the year and played pretty well.

I think Boling could play well too.

The massive RG thing was Bratkowski scheme.

I think they want lineman that can move at every position now, even RG, for the WCO.