Palmer 2nd Pass of 2012 Picked Off

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Nately120

I'm setting the bar pretty low for Palmer, but calling him washed up and "benched" after 2 offensive series in the first preseason game? You guys aren't even being remotely fair.

This^^^

AJ Green dropped 2 passes, one of which should have been a TD. I guess he's gonna drop a bunch of passes this year, right?

For those that actually watched him(I tuned in after the pick), Jacoby Ford dropped 2 passes in a row that would have resulted in 1st downs during the second series. Jon Gruden said both of those passes should have been caught, but clearly, once again, it's all Palmer's fault.

It's completely fair to give any player criticism when they mess up, but at least judge everyone on the same level. It's beyond me how some can literally hate another human being for what amounted to a perceived insult toward their favorite sports team. I swear, it's like people want him tried for treason and hanged on national television.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

This^^^

AJ Green dropped 2 passes, one of which should have been a TD. I guess he's gonna drop a bunch of passes this year, right?

For those that actually watched him(I tuned in after the pick), Jacoby Ford dropped 2 passes in a row that would have resulted in 1st downs during the second series. Jon Gruden said both of those passes should have been caught, but clearly, once again, it's all Palmer's fault.

It's completely fair to give any player criticism when they mess up, but at least judge everyone on the same level. It's beyond me how some can literally hate another human being for what amounted to a perceived insult toward their favorite sports team. I swear, it's like people want him tried for treason and hanged on national television.

I don't wish for anything bad to happen to Palmer in his personal life, but why should I wish success for him on the football field? By his request he plays for the Raiders now. Btw, there were a couple dropped passes, but that throw into double coverage without looking off the safety was classic Palmer. It's going to be an interesting season.

[DWright]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

I don't wish for anything bad to happen to Palmer in his personal life, but why should I wish success for him on the football field? By his request he plays for the Raiders now. Btw, there were a couple dropped passes, but that throw into double coverage without looking off the safety was classic Palmer. It's going to be an interesting season.

It couldnt have been an any more perfect throw though he fit the ball between the WR and the incoming safety. The ball literally went right through Fords hands into the FS's. Yes Palmer telegraphs every throw he makes, locks onto recievers, and does not know when to throw it away (would rather try to fit it where he shouldnt.) But no one can say that Carson isnt one of the more accurate QB's in the league Short medium and long distance.


I myself do blame alot of the problems Carson had on Brat during his time here. Brats system was overly complicated for WR's. They had to be as good at reading defenses as a QB. TJ was VERY good at this and Shipley had a decent year, but every other WR in that system has be absolutely dreadful to watch.

Edit: Cheers for a High Second round pick

[Danno]

Between a few threads in here, I don't think my mind will ever be able to fully comprehend how Bengals fans (some not all) are seemingly on one hand finding any reason under the sun to explain away how Chad couldn't have possibly beat his wife (who knows at this point if the charges are true), but on the other hand treat Palmer as if he beat children on his way out of Cincy (all because he had the audacity to demand and get a trade).

One's "crime" is merely in the very much not reality game of football; a business from which we draw entertainment. The other's alleged crime (and again, just alleged at this point) is very much the real world with very real consequences and moral implications. But yet, from some of the threads/post in this subforum, you'd think it was the opposite.

I think we need to step back and
a.) let Palmer go, and stop being so bitter and catty about it.
and
b.) keep a level head about Chad's situation, wait for more facts to come out, and not pre-judge (innocent or guilty) until that point.

[Helldog]

Originally Posted by Danno

Between a few threads in here, I don't think my mind will ever be able to fully comprehend how Bengals fans (some not all) are seemingly on one hand finding any reason under the sun to explain away how Chad couldn't have possibly beat his wife (who knows at this point if the charges are true), but on the other hand treat Palmer as if he beat children on his way out of Cincy (all because he had the audacity to demand and get a trade).

One's "crime" is merely in the very much not reality game of football; a business from which we draw entertainment. The other's alleged crime (and again, just alleged at this point) is very much the real world with very real consequences and moral implications. But yet, from some of the threads/post in this subforum, you'd think it was the opposite.

I think we need to step back and
a.) let Palmer go, and stop being so bitter and catty about it.
and
b.) keep a level head about Chad's situation, wait for more facts to come out, and not pre-judge (innocent or guilty) until that point.

It's a never ending revolving circle..don't waste your time next time.

[ballsofsteel]

USC is like Ohio State. Neither school has has put out a QB that was more than average in the pros in the last 50 years!

[BoomerFan]

Palmer had some good years, but they are behind him now. I almost feel sorry for Oakland. They paid a 1st and either a 2nd or late 1st for Palmer and a 3rd for Terrell Pryor (who also throwed an INT).

[Nately120]

Originally Posted by BoomerFan

Palmer had some good years, but they are behind him now. I almost feel sorry for Oakland. They paid a 1st and either a 2nd or late 1st for Palmer and a 3rd for Terrell Pryor (who also throwed an INT).

The Raiders overpaid for Palmer, for sure, and Pryor seems like a real waste BUT I think they're better off with Carson than Campbell. This season will show if I have any idea what I'm talking about, though. Bad start since that pass he threw was totally "Grossman-esque."

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

I don't wish for anything bad to happen to Palmer in his personal life, but why should I wish success for him on the football field? By his request he plays for the Raiders now. Btw, there were a couple dropped passes, but that throw into double coverage without looking off the safety was classic Palmer. It's going to be an interesting season.

I'm not saying people should wish for him to succeed, just don't openly and blatantly go out of your(not you specifically) way to harp on, and exaggerate every mistake he makes while wishing him complete and utter failure.

Granted, that pass wasn't the best decision, but it's not like the FS picked it off with ease; it was a diving interception for cryin out loud. Sensabaugh simply made a great play, while Ford lacked awareness and Palmer made a bad read. All of the other passes I saw him throw were accurate and had at least decent velocity.

If the Raiders implement more of a WC style offense with the occasional long pass I'm pretty sure they'll be successful. How successful though is still anyone's guess.

Just to state this again, for the record, I hope the Bengals best the Raiders when they play this season, and every season. At the same time though, I don't think it's wrong for me to also want Palmer to have a good game statistically.

[lagalaxy8]

Originally Posted by DWright

But no one can say that Carson isnt one of the more accurate QB's in the league Short medium and long distance.

Were you drunk when you said that? Guy could not hit the side of a barn standing 3 feet away.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

I'm not saying people should wish for him to succeed, just don't openly and blatantly go out of your(not you specifically) way to harp on, and exaggerate every mistake he makes while wishing him complete and utter failure.

Granted, that pass wasn't the best decision, but it's not like the FS picked it off with ease; it was a diving interception for cryin out loud. Sensabaugh simply made a great play, while Ford lacked awareness and Palmer made a bad read. All of the other passes I saw him throw were accurate and had at least decent velocity.

If the Raiders implement more of a WC style offense with the occasional long pass I'm pretty sure they'll be successful. How successful though is still anyone's guess.

Just to state this again, for the record, I hope the Bengals best the Raiders when they play this season, and every season. At the same time though, I don't think it's wrong for me to also want Palmer to have a good game statistically.

Hey if he has a great season like you predicted, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. I just don't see it happening and I'm certainly not a fan of his now.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by lagalaxy8

Were you drunk when you said that? Guy could not hit the side of a barn standing 3 feet away.

Palmer has a career completion percentage of 62.7. Anything over 60% is considered accurate by NFL standards, so your analysis is...off.

[Norm]

Originally Posted by jj22

It was the receivers fault!

Most Bengals fans would be using this excuse to this day if he was still here.

[savagehenry54]

He went up top in the first pre-season game of the year. Could very well have been a "just put it on tape out of this formation" sort of deal.

167 TDs to 116 Ints for his career.

An objective onlooker who was paying attention would put their money on Palmer probably being a lot better than a lot of Bengal fans want to admit based on what he did while he was here, what he did last year, and what his top targets have not done since leaving here.

Save the stats shake, I'll only add context to them that you can not refute the logic of. Just remember to admit how wrong you are later this year.

[lagalaxy8]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Palmer has a career completion percentage of 62.7. Anything over 60% is considered accurate by NFL standards, so your analysis is...off.

I'm not talking day one of his NFL job. I'm talking last few years. Just because he helped us with a few winning seasons he doesn't need a bengals hall of fame marker. We made the playoffs yea, but no farther. I like to think if he diodn't get hurt we had a real chance and for years to come, but that ruined him. Guy lost it, he didn't care. He got hurt and his heart was not in it anymore. Do I blame him no, sucky job getting the crap kicked out of yourself. But get in the booth or coach if you still have the love of the game, don't go out there and give 50% that will get you hurt more. I wish the guy luck, but every Int he throws does put a smile on my face.

btw don't you have a Raiders board to be sticking up for him on? He's going to need some friends about week 4.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by lagalaxy8

I'm not talking day one of his NFL job. I'm talking last few years. Just because he helped us with a few winning seasons he doesn't need a bengals hall of fame marker. We made the playoffs yea, but no farther. I like to think if he diodn't get hurt we had a real chance and for years to come, but that ruined him. Guy lost it, he didn't care. He got hurt and his heart was not in it anymore. Do I blame him no, sucky job getting the crap kicked out of yourself. But get in the booth or coach if you still have the love of the game, don't go out there and give 50% that will get you hurt more. I wish the guy luck, but every Int he throws does put a smile on my face.

btw don't you have a Raiders board to be sticking up for him on? He's going to need some friends about week 4.

2009: 60.5%
2010: 61.8%
2011: 60.7%
Still seems pretty accurate to me.

So that's why he battled back from a pretty severe injury in near record time to have a great season statistically? Or when he came back from the elbow injury in 2008 to help lead the team to a division title and playoff appearance? If he lost his desire to play, he would have just retired, but instead he did one of the most controversial things in NFL history just so he could play on another team with management that actually try to win. They've failed recently, but they do try.

He's said the fans weren't the problem
He said the OC wasn't the problem
So that leaves: the players(namely The Ocho), the HC, and/or management.
They traded Ocho, but Palmer still didn't come back, so that leaves either Marvin or MB as the reason. What I find a little funny is that very soon after Marvin's re-signing was announced, Palmer announced his ultimatum.

Palmer may have been part of the problem, play wise, in his last couple years here, but he was also part of the solution after he left. If you, or anyone else thinks that all of the fundamental changes that have occurred over the last two off-seasons, making this franchise much more like all the others is merely coincidence, and had nothing to do with Palmer making it known, in private, exactly why he never wanted to play here again then I'd have to call you naive or obtuse.

For the record, I can like whatever player I want on whatever team I want. I'm a fan of the Bengals AND I'm a fan of Palmer.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

2009: 60.5%
2010: 61.8%
2011: 60.7%
Still seems pretty accurate to me.

So that's why he battled back from a pretty severe injury in near record time to have a great season statistically? Or when he came back from the elbow injury in 2008 to help lead the team to a division title and playoff appearance? If he lost his desire to play, he would have just retired, but instead he did one of the most controversial things in NFL history just so he could play on another team with management that actually try to win. They've failed recently, but they do try.

He's said the fans weren't the problem
He said the OC wasn't the problem
So that leaves: the players(namely The Ocho), the HC, and/or management.
They traded Ocho, but Palmer still didn't come back, so that leaves either Marvin or MB as the reason. What I find a little funny is that very soon after Marvin's re-signing was announced, Palmer announced his ultimatum.

Palmer may have been part of the problem, play wise, in his last couple years here, but he was also part of the solution after he left. If you, or anyone else thinks that all of the fundamental changes that have occurred over the last two off-seasons, making this franchise much more like all the others is merely coincidence, and had nothing to do with Palmer making it known, in private, exactly why he never wanted to play here again then I'd have to call you naive or obtuse.

For the record, I can like whatever player I want on whatever team I want. I'm a fan of the Bengals AND I'm a fan of Palmer.

A lot of those fundamental changes you're speaking of happened before Carson was traded to the Raiders. If he just wanted some changes then why didn't he stay? I think it's naive to think that Carson had anything to do with the changes made. Why would Mike Brown finally change for a QB that was on his way out? The meager amount of change you have seen can more easily attributed to Marvin Lewis, who demanded changes if he were to come back. Carson was responsible for nothing but getting us 2 high draft picks. Am I supposed to thank him for that? It's not as if he left with our best interests at heart. Please.

As for Carson's performance, it was obvious that he dropped off after 2007. The completion %'s are deceiving. Look at his yards per attempt. Look at his int %. Those stats are more important than completion % to be quite honest. Yards per attempt shows how well you are moving the offense when passing the ball.

Both his yards per attempt and his int % after 2007 have been well below league average (He had a good YPA last season as he hit his WRs more often and checked down less, but he paid for that with a sky high INT %). Also, watching him in 10' was painful. He raised his completion % with constant check downs. When he went to Chad and TO he looked awful. The completion % to the WRs was awful that year. Something around 52%, and please spare me that wrong route nonsense. Carson to this day is still throwing into obvious double coverage.

So far this preseason, Carson is 17 for 31 with 2 picks and a QB rating of 40.4. The dude is toast and has been for awhile. I like you and I enjoy these debates, but I really think you and Savage are wrong about CP and give him far too much credit.

Edit: I do think you're right that Marv was probably the reason that CP demanded a trade, but if you ask me whether I side with Carson or Marv, I choose Marv. He's done more for the franchise.

[BoomerFan]

I never thought I'd see the day when Jordan Palmer had a better week than Carson. Jordan got a TD and no picks this week, even with an anemic 5/14 for 49 yards. Not saying Jordan is good (he isn't), but Carson definitely continues to be a liability.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

A lot of those fundamental changes you're speaking of happened before Carson was traded to the Raiders. If he just wanted some changes then why didn't he stay? I think it's naive to think that Carson had anything to do with the changes made. Why would Mike Brown finally change for a QB that was on his way out? The meager amount of change you have seen can more easily attributed to Marvin Lewis, who demanded changes if he were to come back. Carson was responsible for nothing but getting us 2 high draft picks. Am I supposed to thank him for that? It's not as if he left with our best interests at heart. Please.

As for Carson's performance, it was obvious that he dropped off after 2007. The completion %'s are deceiving. Look at his yards per attempt. Look at his int %. Those stats are more important than completion % to be quite honest. Yards per attempt shows how well you are moving the offense when passing the ball.

Both his yards per attempt and his int % after 2007 have been well below league average (He had a good YPA last season as he hit his WRs more often and checked down less, but he paid for that with a sky high INT %). Also, watching him in 10' was painful. He raised his completion % with constant check downs. When he went to Chad and TO he looked awful. The completion % to the WRs was awful that year. Something around 52%, and please spare me that wrong route nonsense. Carson to this day is still throwing into obvious double coverage.

So far this preseason, Carson is 17 for 31 with 2 picks and a QB rating of 40.4. The dude is toast and has been for awhile. I like you and I enjoy these debates, but I really think you and Savage are wrong about CP and give him far too much credit.

Edit: I do think you're right that Marv was probably the reason that CP demanded a trade, but if you ask me whether I side with Carson or Marv, I choose Marv. He's done more for the franchise.

I'm not saying Carson demanded specific changes be made in his ultimatum, but what I am saying is that the real reasons he left are only known by a select few, Marvin and MB included, and those reasons maybe hit home for them, especially MB. When your franchise, $100M QB simply refuses to play another down for you, any owner with half a brain would re-evaluate how they operate from top to bottom. Guys don't make it in the NFL by having weak wills and thin skin, so clearly Carson's reasons were pretty legitimate.

Maybe all of these changes we're seeing are just Marvin finally getting his way, but I can't help but think Palmer had something to do with those changes too. So I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree on that.

As far as his performance in the pre-season, well for one, he is learning a new offense again, and so are his receivers. What I think is going on there is more about everyone getting on the same page, and for Jacoby Ford in particular to start catching the ball more reliably since he pretty much had 3 drops that would have extended drives, at least in the 1st game.

WTS, I'm not absolving Carson of mistakes that he makes, and he does make quite a few, but I still think he is an above average(read: top 15) QB in the NFL. Will he ever win a SB? Who knows, but I do think he's capable of winning a playoff game.

[BobJones4980]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

I'm not saying Carson demanded specific changes be made in his ultimatum, but what I am saying is that the real reasons he left are only known by a select few, Marvin and MB included, and those reasons maybe hit home for them, especially MB. When your franchise, $100M QB simply refuses to play another down for you, any owner with half a brain would re-evaluate how they operate from top to bottom. Guys don't make it in the NFL by having weak wills and thin skin, so clearly Carson's reasons were pretty legitimate.

Maybe all of these changes we're seeing are just Marvin finally getting his way, but I can't help but think Palmer had something to do with those changes too. So I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree on that.

As far as his performance in the pre-season, well for one, he is learning a new offense again, and so are his receivers. What I think is going on there is more about everyone getting on the same page, and for Jacoby Ford in particular to start catching the ball more reliably since he pretty much had 3 drops that would have extended drives, at least in the 1st game.

WTS, I'm not absolving Carson of mistakes that he makes, and he does make quite a few, but I still think he is an above average(read: top 15) QB in the NFL. Will he ever win a SB? Who knows, but I do think he's capable of winning a playoff game.

I won't really comment on Carson's skill or anything like that since you know how I feel but I don't think he was the reason for the changes around here, about the only thing Carson is responsible for is Andy, Dre, and what ever we get next year in round 2. Id lean more to demands from Marvin but that's all speculation.

Also :

Guys don't make it in the NFL by having weak wills and thin skin, so clearly Carson's reasons were pretty legitimate.

That's not true there have been plenty of players in the NFL with think skin, not long ago wasn't Vince Young on suicide watch because he got booed?

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by BobJones4980

That's not true there have been plenty of players in the NFL with think skin, not long ago wasn't Vince Young on suicide watch because he got booed?

He would be the exception, and I think there were other circumstances that led to that. Mental illness being one of them. Also, just because someone is seriously considering suicide doesn't mean they aren't emotionally tough. A lot of those people are under constant stress and torment, whether perceived or legitimate(it's all the same to the individual), and just finally reach a breaking point after years, if not decades of living that way.

If VY did in fact threaten suicide simply from getting booed though, then yeah, I'd call him a punk, but like I said, I doubt that's the only reason.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

I'm not saying Carson demanded specific changes be made in his ultimatum, but what I am saying is that the real reasons he left are only known by a select few, Marvin and MB included, and those reasons maybe hit home for them, especially MB. When your franchise, $100M QB simply refuses to play another down for you, any owner with half a brain would re-evaluate how they operate from top to bottom. Guys don't make it in the NFL by having weak wills and thin skin, so clearly Carson's reasons were pretty legitimate.

Maybe all of these changes we're seeing are just Marvin finally getting his way, but I can't help but think Palmer had something to do with those changes too. So I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree on that.

As far as his performance in the pre-season, well for one, he is learning a new offense again, and so are his receivers. What I think is going on there is more about everyone getting on the same page, and for Jacoby Ford in particular to start catching the ball more reliably since he pretty much had 3 drops that would have extended drives, at least in the 1st game.

WTS, I'm not absolving Carson of mistakes that he makes, and he does make quite a few, but I still think he is an above average(read: top 15) QB in the NFL. Will he ever win a SB? Who knows, but I do think he's capable of winning a playoff game.

It's all speculation as far as who sparked the minor changes we're seeing. IMO, it was mostly Marv's doing. It's also possible Carson had a little to do with it.

As far as Carson being a top 15 QB, you certainly can't base that opinion on performance or statistics. Otherwise, you would have to put him behind these QBs:

Aaron Rodgers
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning
Matthew Stafford
Matt Ryan
Jay Cutler
Eli Manning
Mike Vick
Phillip Rivers
Ben Roethlisberger
Tony Romo
Cam Newton
Matt Schaub
Josh Freeman
Andy Dalton

I would also make arguments for Fitzpatrick, Flacco, Cassel, Bradford and Hasselbeck. Heck, after this season, I'll probably be able to add Luck and RGIII to the list of QBs that are better than Palmer.

[Jay62107]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Palmer has a career completion percentage of 62.7. Anything over 60% is considered accurate by NFL standards, so your analysis is...off.

Do you not recall all of the pick 6's he threw from trying complete short to medium passes?

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

It's all speculation as far as who sparked the minor changes we're seeing. IMO, it was mostly Marv's doing. It's also possible Carson had a little to do with it.

As far as Carson being a top 15 QB, you certainly can't base that opinion on performance or statistics. Otherwise, you would have to put him behind these QBs:

Aaron Rodgers
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning
Matthew Stafford
Matt Ryan
Jay Cutler
Eli Manning
Mike Vick
Phillip Rivers
Ben Roethlisberger
Tony Romo
Cam Newton
Matt Schaub
Josh Freeman
Andy Dalton

I would also make arguments for Fitzpatrick, Flacco, Cassel, Bradford and Hasselbeck. Heck, after this season, I'll probably be able to add Luck and RGIII to the list of QBs that are better than Palmer.

Most of those dudes have out performed him recently, many of them are not really as good as he is though.......Freeman, Fitzy, Flacco, Cassel, Bradford are not better as it stands now. I think Palmer has the potential to be better than Dalton, Schaub, Newton, Romo, Vick, Cutler, Ryan, Rapist, Rivers, Eli.

Originally Posted by Jay62107

Do you not recall all of the pick 6's he threw from trying complete short to medium passes?

Are you sure they were all his fault? Yea, he threw the ball, that's the only part that matters huh? NFL offenses aren't that complex, the QB either rules or he don't. #ignorance

[Nately120]

Palmer has still chucked less INTs in his 2 preseason starts than Peyton Manning, so I guess that division is the has-beens vs. the never-wases now. Though I could certainly see Carson falling in as both a has-been AND a never-was.