Andrew Whitworth vs the Green Bay Packers

[natiboysince88]

Initially I was really hard on Whit after watching the game, plus i didnt think he played the greatest in our first 2 games. It seems he still has trouble getting a push in the run game at times. I agree completely with zeitler and boling, solid at RG and LG for years to come. After Boling bulked up, and the combination of his experience from last year has definitely proven to be a positive. I agree that the obvious weakest link on the oline is kyle cook, easily. I think we should maybe start planning for the future at LT, initially i said a 1st rounder but i think it may be a little early for that. But a first round C would be freakin great. It seems people equate durability with talent in the case of Cook, but I only see an average center who has/will get pushed around by Ngata, Casey Hampton, Phil Taylor (when he returns, absolute beast. F the browns tho), and others.

[DWright]

Cook's inconsistency could be because he has had 3 new guards next to him? Maybe? Possibly? Its not like hes right between them or anything.... No wait he was undrafted so he ***** LOL.

[bengalfan4life27c]

I think we could have had a hall of fame line in their prime and we still would have struggled to move the ball against the packers. with the lack of talent at runningback and tightend and vanilla gameplan. We really had no chance. Gresham and Lawfirm make a big difference.

[DWright]

This is a good place for this. First Quarter offensive run down (Cincy Jungle article. Thanks Josh Kirkendall)

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/8/25...s-questionable

Glad to hear Zeitler and Boiling looking good.

[fortyyearfan]

Originally Posted by NC Bengal Mike

Ended up being a 5/5 on rushing. Whit should have kicked that one out. On a pass play the edge is always set
and rushers picked up from outside in a zone and man blocking scheme.

The hot read to a point is mute in that he had not time get to get the ball out anyway. There was a lot of things wrong with that play

this season as all of you know, will depend on how well andy dalton plays.he is still learning and will make mistakes. he wants to win them all. this will be a year he will learn alot.remember he just got here into the nfl and he is picking things up on the fly.if he gets us into the playoffs and wins a few, that will be great, i feel.if you look around the league,the qbs that are being picked for the big dance have all been with their teams for a while now, ben,the manning brothers,rodgers,tom brady and so on. those guys know how to lead their team, andy is JUST LEARNING and to me he is way ahead of the curve, but he will still make rookie mistakes and we will have to live with it for a while, but he won't do it twice and thats a good thing. i really like the red rifle, i like all kinds of guys, hand gernades missles, automatic m-16's, AK-47's. M-50 machine guns. they are all fun to hammer home. the red rifle will get it done this year, and i feel confident with bruce g. he loves to play hard and is fearless. i like the dude.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

Re-watched the game on my DVR in crystal clear HD on a nearly 50" LED TV.
/brag
Recorded all 29 snaps of Whitworth (maybe I missed one or two on the FF but it seems to check out).
Of the 29 snaps. 2 were bad. 1 was bad but he was able to recover. Not saying the other 26 were perfect (a few were) but he wasn't a liability on the other 26.
So, by my grades, he would fall in the A range. 89.5-93. (duh 27/29 and 26/29)

But first a few notes on the general play from the OL and RB in this game while Whit was in.

• We need to get better on the interior. The only outside rush came from the TE not blocking well
• Our RBs (Peerman and Brown mostly) were incredibly slow through the holes and need the vision to see a cut back lane.
• Peerman stops his feet at times.
• Cook was frustrating at times and great at others. Ran hot and cold.
• Boling and Zeitler have the potential. It seems to be a mental game for them right now. Need to get that in check.
• Andy HAS to call the hot read on the 3rd and goal.

1st Quarter:
7:52 1/10 2 WR 2 TE 1 RB
- Blocks Clay Matthews III out of the play

7:20 2/8 2 WR 2 TE 1 RB
- Blocked CM3 inside, chips off to #98, Boling comes to CM3

7:10 3/8 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Stayed at home, picked up #99 when CM3 looped inside. Inside pressure results in sack.

3:26 1/10 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Got outside for screen, CM3 makes good read and bats pass

3:23 2/10 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Great pass protection by Whit. Leonard threw good block, Binns down field

3:00 1/10 2 WR 1 TE 2 RB
- Picks up #98 on the delay to Leonard.

2:28 1/10 2 WR 1 TE 2 RB
- Good seal on the backside, tripped over Boling who cut blocked.

1:46 2/3 2 WR 2 TE 1 RB
- Eats up CM3, great block

1:14 1/10 2 WR 1 TE 2 RB
- Chips #98, misses on #51. Bad play.

0:36 2/11 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- TE lined up next to him, made a great block. Binns drop in endzone

0:28 3/11 4 WR 1 RB
- Good double team with Boling

2nd Quarter:
13:48 1/10 1 WR 2 TE 2 RB
- Beat inside

13:42 2/10 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Got down field, backside DB ran it down

13:08 3/7 4 WR 1 TE
- Shut down #99

12:17 1/10 2 WR 2 TE 1 RB
- Picked up the pass rush Under-thrown fade

12:11 2/10 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Made his block. Great throw to Binns, should be a TD

11:34 1/1 3 TE 2 RB
- Washed his man down the line.

11:25 3 TE 2 RB
- Chipped, got to 2nd level.

10:43 3/3 4 WR 1 TE
- Picked up inside gap. Boling got the DE. Cook expected LB, never moved.
Dalton did not pick up the hot read, I dont think Cook really blocked anyone.

4:53 1/10 2 WR 2 TE 1 RB ( I think that was the formation)
- Blocked the LB.

4:46 2/10 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Blocked #90 out of the play

4:10 3/4 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Blocked #90 again.

1:00 1/10 4 WR 1 RB
- Picked up inside blitz. Great block by Leonard again.

0:53 2/10 4 WR 1 RB
- Picked up the rush. Big drop by Lee

0:49 3/10 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Makes the initial block, lost his man but recovered.

0:01 4 WR 1 RB
- Shuts his man out of the play.

3rd Quarter: *Hudson at guard*
14:53 1/10 2 WR 1 TE 2 RB
- Makes the block, washes him down. Brown needed to see the slant hard right and cut left.

14:28 2/10 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Sells the draw perfectly.

13:45 3/7 3 WR 1 TE 1 RB
- Blocks his man

Good breakdown.

Thanks.

I DVRd the game today and will re-watch soon (7am NFL Network replay).

I was pretty critical of Whitworth in another thread but perhaps I was wrong.

That's what I get for watching the game 10 beers in

[BengalTrucker]

Originally Posted by bengalfan4life27c

they only rushed 5 had 6 back in coverage. I dont blame dalton. they overloaded the left with 3 guys whit took the middle guy. it was a blown protection call maybe but whit should have blocked the outside man their.

It is plain you don't know jackshlitz about football, and even less about O line responsibility.

You always block the inside guy, he has a shorter path to the QB.

That hit was all on Dalton for missing the HOT READ!!!

The O line did exactly what they should have done.

That was not a pre-season vanillia D, but an actual game planned blitz over load on one side. That is what made Di ck Lebeau famous and a top DC.

IT was a zone blitz with the left side being overlaoded. The read is on the QB, not the OC, or anyone on the line.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

No problem. Whit has been far from perfect this preseason but he is probably the biggest scapegoat on the OL.
Andre is playing really well too.
Cook gets a pass sometimes because of who he replaced (worst C ever) and we seem complacent with him.

And the 2 young guards really need to pick it up.

Good looking out, about what I would have expected. Whit is as solid as they get, we need four more just like him.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by DWright

Cook's inconsistency could be because he has had 3 new guards next to him? Maybe? Possibly? Its not like hes right between them or anything.... No wait he was undrafted so he ***** LOL.

No, he's marginal and it is his performance that makes that statement accurate, has nothing to do with being UDFA.

[DWright]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

No, he's marginal and it is his performance that makes that statement accurate, has nothing to do with being UDFA.

You do realize you ignored the whole first sentence?

Edit: Also Kyle Cook and Bobbie Williams(only played in 9 games.) were the only 2 offensive linemen that didn't grade out negative in the run game. While only giving up 1 sack every 12 games. Cook gets no love from Bengals fans.

[bengalfan4life27c]

Originally Posted by BengalTrucker

It is plain you don't know jackshlitz about football, and even less about O line responsibility.

You always block the inside guy, he has a shorter path to the QB.

That hit was all on Dalton for missing the HOT READ!!!

The O line did exactly what they should have done.

That was not a pre-season vanillia D, but an actual game planned blitz over load on one side. That is what made Di ck Lebeau famous and a top DC.

IT was a zone blitz with the left side being overlaoded. The read is on the QB, not the OC, or anyone on the line.

I know enough football that if 3 guys are stacked on 1 side the left tackle is responsible for the outside guy. Even Dalton said it was a blown protection and he should have called timeout. HOW CAN YOU HAVE A HOT READ WHEN 6 ARE STILL IN COVERAGE! Based on your logic when ever bengals go empty all the d has to do is rush 5 and stack the line to one side or the other they get a free rusher every time. Dont challenge my football expertise I promise you im way more knowledgable than you.

[BengalTrucker]

Originally Posted by bengalfan4life27c

I know enough football that if 3 guys are stacked on 1 side the left tackle is responsible for the outside guy. Even Dalton said it was a blown protection and he should have called timeout. HOW CAN YOU HAVE A HOT READ WHEN 6 ARE STILL IN COVERAGE! Based on your logic when ever bengals go empty all the d has to do is rush 5 and stack the line to one side or the other they get a free rusher every time. Dont challenge my football expertise I promise you im way more knowledgable than you.

You just showed you don't know near what I do about football and can't read very well.

Dalton said it was a bad read on himself, and he should have picked up on the hot read. He also said he should have called time out.

Brightone, the stacking one side of the line is what an overload is. It is done almost everygame. You go to your hot route, or throw there the guy backs out of the line, as he will be a D lineman in coverage.

You can't slide the whole O line, that is why you have a hot read, or hot route.

As for you knowing more about football than me, that is a joke.

I learned football from one of Paul Brown's former players, I played all the way to Junior year in college, but got injuried. I even played in the Marine Corps, please, please show me how much you know about football.

[bengalfan4life27c]

Originally Posted by BengalTrucker

You just showed you don't know near what I do about football and can't read very well.

Dalton said it was a bad read on himself, and he should have picked up on the hot read. He also said he should have called time out.

Brightone, the stacking one side of the line is what an overload is. It is done almost everygame. You go to your hot route, or throw there the guy backs out of the line, as he will be a D lineman in coverage.

You can't slide the whole O line, that is why you have a hot read, or hot route.

As for you knowing more about football than me, that is a joke.

I learned football from one of Paul Brown's former players, I played all the way to Junior year in college, but got injuried. I even played in the Marine Corps, please, please show me how much you know about football.

Ive seen enough regular season games when a defense stacks their line that way unless their running a stunt which Pack werent. where whit would pick up the outside guy in a similar spot. COOK WAS BLOCKING NOBODY THAT PLAY. Dalton said he should have called timeout to get them in the right protection he said nothing about a hot read in the post game interview

[BengalTrucker]

Originally Posted by bengalfan4life27c

Ive seen enough regular season games when a defense stacks their line that way unless their running a stunt which Pack werent. where whit would pick up the outside guy in a similar spot. COOK WAS BLOCKING NOBODY THAT PLAY.

You just showed that you have a lot to learn about football. The issue is a lot is what you can't learn from watching regular season games, you need to play the game to understand parts of the game.

I was a RB, and had to pick up the outside buy time after time when teams blitzed, because the LT, or RT had to take the guy inside, because he has a shorter route to the QB.

The reason O lines block like that from Pee Wee Football to the NFL is the outside guy has farther to go to the QB, that gives the QB more time to throw, or move.

What you saw was an overload zone blitz. It puts more guys on one side than can be blocked, and is a great counter to going empty backfield. The answer is for the QB, to go to his hot receiver, the receiver who cuts his route short so the qb has time to throw to him. The QB, and the WR both need to read the overload.
The next best counter is for the QB to roll out to the other side, if that will work on that play.
If neither of these is a good way to go, the the QB needs to call timeout.

First that is not a vanilla defense like most teams use in pre-season football. It is plain to see GB game planned this game. Which is also something a lot of teams do not do in pre-season.

[BengalTrucker]

Originally Posted by bengalfan4life27c

Ive seen enough regular season games when a defense stacks their line that way unless their running a stunt which Pack werent. where whit would pick up the outside guy in a similar spot. COOK WAS BLOCKING NOBODY THAT PLAY. Dalton said he should have called timeout to get them in the right protection he said nothing about a hot read in the post game interview

I think the reason the Bengals are not game planning this pre-season, is our first game is against a division rival. We do not want to give them any advantage before we play them.

I wish we did not open against the Ravens, on MNF. I think it affects our entire pre-season, and could mean we are not as ready to play them week one.

They also have the same issues, but do not seem to be as conservative as the Bengals have been.

[bengalfan4life27c]

Originally Posted by NC Bengal Mike

Ended up being a 5/5 on rushing. Whit should have kicked that one out. On a pass play the edge is always set
and rushers picked up from outside in a zone and man blocking scheme.

The hot read to a point is mute in that he had not time get to get the ball out anyway. There was a lot of things wrong with that play

This guy agrees with me im sure we are not alone. You dont always go inside out sometime when a certain look presents itself you adjust and go outside in and this is clearly what we should have done here.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by bengalfan4life27c

This guy agrees with me im sure we are not alone. You dont always go inside out sometime when a certain look presents itself you adjust and go outside in and this is clearly what we should have done here.

Except Whit shouldn't have kicked out.
If the guy over Cook would have blitzed, they would have been just as ****ed.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by DWright

You do realize you ignored the whole first sentence?

Edit: Also Kyle Cook and Bobbie Williams(only played in 9 games.) were the only 2 offensive linemen that didn't grade out negative in the run game. While only giving up 1 sack every 12 games. Cook gets no love from Bengals fans.

No I didn't, I don't think the guards have much to do with his averageness. They might not cover for it as well as better guards would, but I find him to be mediocre at best all on his own.

[bengalfan4life27c]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

Except Whit shouldn't have kicked out.
If the guy over Cook would have blitzed, they would have been just as ****ed.

I understand what your saying, Thats why andy said he should have called timeout and audibled out of the play. Their was a similar game against the Ravens first time we met last year. That suggs came through up the middle untouched. I think I understand now. we were just screwed with that play against that defense. I finally understand where your coming from. I guess I need to learn more about protection schemes.

[DWright]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

No I didn't, I don't think the guards have much to do with his averageness. They might not cover for it as well as better guards would, but I find him to be mediocre at best all on his own.

That's kinda the issue outside of 2010 Cook has been nothing but completely solid in the Center. Guards have EVERYTHING to do with the Center play. It would be him covering for mediocre guard play....

According to Pro Football Focus, Bobbie Williams was the only lineman to score a positive rush blocking grade on the 2011 roster. The only lineman on the current roster that didn't score a negative run blocking score? Kyle Cook. The same Kyle Cook that allowed as many quarterback sacks as Chris Myers and less quarterback sacks than Nick Mangold, Maurkice Pouncey, Ryan Kalil and Scott Wells, all of whom were elected into the 2012 NFL Pro Bowl.
And to address the people that argue that they always saw Kyle Cook in the backfield, consider that Nate Livings and Mike McGlynn allowed 27 hurries on the quarterback last year. And as a center without an assignment or blitzer, you support the guards and the Bengals had one of the worst sets of guards last year for Cook to cover.
Grading interior offensive linemen can be difficult. Unlike offensive tackles, guards and centers tend to work more in unison, keeping tabs on 3-4 players that could be doing a variety of stunts. And if one fails, then all appear to fail when watching the game on live television (or a choppy internet feed).

[THEBURG]

Whit stunk the place up.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by bengalfan4life27c

I understand what your saying, Thats why andy said he should have called timeout and audibled out of the play. Their was a similar game against the Ravens first time we met last year. That suggs came through up the middle untouched. I think I understand now. we were just screwed with that play against that defense. I finally understand where your coming from. I guess I need to learn more about protection schemes.

Blocking really isn't an easy thing to just pick up, especially in a game situation with stunts, blitzes and drop backs. You have to read the defense just as much as the QB. I know on some teams the OL will call audibles. Well, suggest them.

In the Baltimore game if they show a big blitz to the left, Andre might notice that the D is stacked the other way before Andy who could be reading coverage first, and call out a signal to let him know to audible to a run right.

Originally Posted by THEBURG

Whit stunk the place up.

Except he didn't. But thanks for playing.

[BengalTrucker]

Originally Posted by bengalfan4life27c

I understand what your saying, Thats why andy said he should have called timeout and audibled out of the play. Their was a similar game against the Ravens first time we met last year. That suggs came through up the middle untouched. I think I understand now. we were just screwed with that play against that defense. I finally understand where your coming from. I guess I need to learn more about protection schemes.

I played the game in college.
I have several friends who played pro football.
I have two good friends who coach the game at different levels. We talk football all the time.

I'm still learning the game after 45 years of playing and watching.

However I do know what an overload zone blitz is and how it affects the offense.

Listen to a game and when you hear the announcers say they brought more people than the offense could block it is not always a straight up blitz. Some times they just overload one side.