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  #51  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Thing is though, that's not how they grade lol.

But again, he got hit HARD on the penalty grade as a result.



That was probably the one pressure he gave up, if Dumerville got a free lane to Andy afterwards...

PFF grades for every play, and everything; thus if you have 10 big positive plays, and only 5 big negative plays, you will grade higher because you did better on the positive side.

Sitch IS taken into account though...
Those penalties were hard to watch. Esp the 2nd one when Andy made a hell of a throw under pressure on a 3rd and long.

On a side note good lord Vick is getting blasted. He has 3 guys on him. How does his oline shape up? lol
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  #52  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Those penalties were hard to watch. Esp the 2nd one when Andy made a hell of a throw under pressure on a 3rd and long.

On a side note good lord Vick is getting blasted. He has 3 guys on him. How does his oline shape up? lol
Vick has been awful this year.

And again, I missed the 4th quarter, so I haven't seen any of it
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  #53  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Again, the numbers disagree with ya, Boon.

In terms of pass blocking efficiency, he's still top 3 (#2). Better than Thomas, Brick, etc.
I think if you're just rating in terms of sacks allowed it is misleading. Take into consideration that the vast majority of passing plays are short, dink patterns. What my eyeballs see is that while Whit may not give up a sack on a play, he is getting beat. He's getting beat in both the run and pass game. He is not a dominant player. You could do worse at LT, but he is nowhere near elite as a player.
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  #54  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Vick has been awful this year.

And again, I missed the 4th quarter, so I haven't seen any of it
Are you sure the 4th quarter isn't just a repressed memory?
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  #55  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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I stick to my guns regardless of how good or bad; guess I should've jumped the Bengals ship in 1999, right?

Shut up.
That is probably exactly what ML is thinking - I am sticking with Maualuga regardless of how good or bad.
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  #56  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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I think if you're just rating in terms of sacks allowed it is misleading. Take into consideration that the vast majority of passing plays are short, dink patterns. What my eyeballs see is that while Whit may not give up a sack on a play, he is getting beat. He's getting beat in both the run and pass game. He is not a dominant player. You could do worse at LT, but he is nowhere near elite as a player.
PBE is the amount of total pressures divided by dropbacks.

He's elite.
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  #57  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Bottom 5 on D:

Burfict (bad in all areas yesterday, the worst bit being coverage).
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I felt like Burfict had a bad game. When I try to tell people this...they blame Burfict's bad plays on Maualuga. LOL
I don't know, PFF is not infallible. I do know that the commentators speculated that Burfict messed up on the TD at the goal-line to the TE, so maybe PFF charged him with that TD as part of his "bad" play, but if you watch the replay he had nothing to do with it. Lawson and Rey split out to cover the TEs and when the TEs crossed they both followed the same guy, so one of them messed up on that play (it may be dismissed as senseless Rey-bashing, but I suspect Rey because he was inside and they both followed the guy who ran outside) Burfict only ended up closest to the TE when he caught the TD because he ran to the ball as it was thrown.
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  #58  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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I don't know, PFF is not infallible. I do know that the commentators speculated that Burfict messed up on the TD at the goal-line to the TE, so maybe PFF charged him with that TD as part of his "bad" play, but if you watch the replay he had nothing to do with it. Lawson and Rey split out to cover the TEs and when the TEs crossed they both followed the same guy, so one of them messed up on that play (it may be dismissed as senseless Rey-bashing, but I suspect Rey because he was inside and they both followed the guy who ran outside) Burfict only ended up closest to the TE when he caught the TD because he ran to the ball as it was thrown.
He was horrid in coverage all game.

Like I said, he let Ball or Hillman run away from him for 10 yards when could have stopped him, and gave up a first down.

In PFFs defense, they use the all 22 film, so they see EVERYTHING.
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  #59  
Old 11-06-2012, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
He was horrid in coverage all game.

Like I said, he let Ball or Hillman run away from him for 10 yards when could have stopped him, and gave up a first down.

In PFFs defense, they use the all 22 film, so they see EVERYTHING.
Fair enough, I'll give them benefit of the doubt. Can't claim that I went back and watched every play of the game in detail!
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  #60  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Geather's makes more money than Dunlap. Duh.
This again?!?

I echo your "duh" comment as it pertains to you persisting in complaining about a false (and repetitively proven wrong) pretense. DUH!

Dunlap had more snaps than Geathers. Dunlap makes much less money than Geathers.

Jason Allen wasn't even activated and he is the 3rd highest paid CB. Newman played more.
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  #61  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
I felt like Burfict had a bad game. When I try to tell people this...they blame Burfict's bad plays on Maualuga. LOL
http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/11/6...als-vs-broncos

Maualuga's overall grade was -0.5. Pass coverage -1.9.
Burfict's overall grade was -2.4. Pass coverage -1.4.

Maualuga also had a bad game (overall grade was -0.5) and was actually graded WORSE in pass coverage than Burfict.

Here is one of my challenges with PFF. Didn't the run defense rock on Sunday? 26 rushes for 68 yards averaging 2.6 ypc. With only 2 rushing first downs verses 17 passing first downs.

How horribly could Maualuga and/or Burfict have played in run defense?

Especially, when the longest run was 12 yards (1 of the 2 rushing first downs) and was given up almost immediately following Peko getting knicked up and leaving the game in the 4th quarter?

It seemed that the LB tackles were down considerably against the Broncos, but this appeared to be a function of the dline being stellar and getting most of the tackles. Of the 40 tackles on Sunday, the dline had 11. I think that this speaks to an awesome game by the dline rather than a sub-par run-stopping game by the LBs. http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=321104004

Last edited by mulligan; 11-06-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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  #62  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by Ryan Mc View Post
I don't know, PFF is not infallible. I do know that the commentators speculated that Burfict messed up on the TD at the goal-line to the TE, so maybe PFF charged him with that TD as part of his "bad" play, but if you watch the replay he had nothing to do with it. Lawson and Rey split out to cover the TEs and when the TEs crossed they both followed the same guy, so one of them messed up on that play (it may be dismissed as senseless Rey-bashing, but I suspect Rey because he was inside and they both followed the guy who ran outside) Burfict only ended up closest to the TE when he caught the TD because he ran to the ball as it was thrown.
I don't know. It seems like when something agrees with what fans think, they think PFF is awesome...like positive ratings for Zeitler and Boling.

When it rates a player negative that fans like, they disagree.

I noticed some subtle things on Burfict in the 1st half where he took bad angles and was out of the play a couple times. Nothing major, but it happened.

Watching the game, I thought Lamur looked REALLY good in coverage. On one play, he stayed right with Decker.
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  #63  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:40 AM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

Truck - Out of curiousity, how have Curtis Lofton and Laron Landry graded out this year?

(You don't have to do exhaustive numbers, but overall are they positive or negative?)
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  #64  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:43 AM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
I don't know. It seems like when something agrees with what fans think, they think PFF is awesome...like positive ratings for Zeitler and Boling.

When it rates a player negative that fans like, they disagree.

I noticed some subtle things on Burfict in the 1st half where he took bad angles and was out of the play a couple times. Nothing major, but it happened.

Watching the game, I thought Lamur looked REALLY good in coverage. On one play, he stayed right with Decker.
Seeing and understanding oline play is much, much more complicated than seeing and understanding LB play.

Wouldn't you agree?
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  #65  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Truck - Out of curiousity, how have Curtis Lofton and Laron Landry graded out this year?

(You don't have to do exhaustive numbers, but overall are they positive or negative?)
Lofton = -10.5 overall grade; everyone on the Saints ***** this year though.

Landry = -6.8 overall grade.

And Mulligan, I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but I legitimately find oline play to be easier to follow and grade than LB play.
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  #66  
Old 11-06-2012, 12:06 PM
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Lofton = -10.5 overall grade; everyone on the Saints ***** this year though.

Landry = -6.8 overall grade.

And Mulligan, I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but I legitimately find oline play to be easier to follow and grade than LB play.
I am not being sarcastic at all about oline play verses LB play. Honestly.

Pass protection seems pretty evident especially crediting fault when Andre Smith gives up 3 sacks. But run blocking seems more nuanced.

The oline works together on each play. LBs seem to be more independant.

Perhaps this is why (for the most part) an oline is the same players 100% of the game verses the LBs getting swapped in-and-out.
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  #67  
Old 11-06-2012, 12:07 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by J24 View Post
How does MJ get 56 snaps while Dunlap only gets 38 snaps?
Because Dunlap is not playing well. Flash in the pan if you ask me, MJ is having a pretty good season. If they can get any offers for Dunlap while he still has some steam they might want to consider trading him, personally I think his bright spot has came and went.
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  #68  
Old 11-06-2012, 12:41 PM
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Because Dunlap is not playing well. Flash in the pan if you ask me, MJ is having a pretty good season. If they can get any offers for Dunlap while he still has some steam they might want to consider trading him, personally I think his bright spot has came and went.
pretty strange how he disappeared when we needed **** out of him the most
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
I am not being sarcastic at all about oline play verses LB play. Honestly.

Pass protection seems pretty evident especially crediting fault when Andre Smith gives up 3 sacks. But run blocking seems more nuanced.

The oline works together on each play. LBs seem to be more independant.

Perhaps this is why (for the most part) an oline is the same players 100% of the game verses the LBs getting swapped in-and-out.
That is a very good point. One I've overlooked.

And you are correct; run blocking IS trickier, however I have a pretty good handle on it.

If I had all 22 film as well, I think I'd be able to see things better as well.

Maybe I'm just weird lol.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
That is a very good point. One I've overlooked.

And you are correct; run blocking IS trickier, however I have a pretty good handle on it.

If I had all 22 film as well, I think I'd be able to see things better as well.

Maybe I'm just weird lol.
We are all weird. There is little point to denying it! :-)

I know you subscribe to PFF. NFL Rewind ($70 package) offers 22 film on every game. A bit pricey.

But, you also have access to all the game 365 days per year (less the time a real game is playing).
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  #71  
Old 11-06-2012, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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We are all weird. There is little point to denying it! :-)

I know you subscribe to PFF. NFL Rewind ($70 package) offers 22 film on every game. A bit pricey.

But, you also have access to all the game 365 days per year (less the time a real game is playing).
Mhm, I've looked into it.

Its more expensive in Canada though, can't remember the price... It was 65 in the offseason.
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  #72  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
I don't know. It seems like when something agrees with what fans think, they think PFF is awesome...like positive ratings for Zeitler and Boling.

When it rates a player negative that fans like, they disagree.

I noticed some subtle things on Burfict in the 1st half where he took bad angles and was out of the play a couple times. Nothing major, but it happened.

Watching the game, I thought Lamur looked REALLY good in coverage. On one play, he stayed right with Decker.
I understand what you're saying about fans being inconsistent about when to embrace or dispute PFF, but I don't think I'm guilty of that. I think there are some legit reasons to take PFF with a pinch of salt, even though I respect what they're doing (see comment below). Fair enough on Burfict, though. As I said, I just noticed one play during the game where he got blamed for poor coverage when it was definitely not his fault, but if there were plenty other plays he was clearly struggling fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
I am not being sarcastic at all about oline play verses LB play. Honestly.

Pass protection seems pretty evident especially crediting fault when Andre Smith gives up 3 sacks. But run blocking seems more nuanced.

The oline works together on each play. LBs seem to be more independant.

Perhaps this is why (for the most part) an oline is the same players 100% of the game verses the LBs getting swapped in-and-out.
Even pass protection can be tricky. I always use the example of 2009, when our coaches said Whit was great in pass protection and only allowed 1 sack all season, while most analysts - including PFF - charged him with 5. But, in looking at a few of the sacks 'allowed' by Whit I did notice him having words with Mathis after the plays, suggesting that Mathis had messed up at LG and made Whit look bad when Whit tried to compensate for Mathis's errors. The coaches (we hope!) know what protection scheme was called and therefore who's at fault, and it would certainly explain why they said Whit was only responsible for 1 sack that season (and would also explain why our coaches never seemed quite as high on Mathis while he was here as many other people)

This is an example of why I say we have to be careful not to take PFF as carved-in-stone truth. They named Mathis their best Guard at midseason that year, in a season where our coaches became disenchanted with him and actually reduced his playing time later in the year (not saying our coaches are always right, but still!)
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  #73  
Old 11-06-2012, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Pff 9...

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
PBE is the amount of total pressures divided by dropbacks.

He's elite.
Semantics but I only see 2 elite players on the roster. Obviously AJ is one and Geno is the other. Whit, I would say is above average.
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  #74  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:49 AM
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Thanks for posting Truck !
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  #75  
Old 11-07-2012, 07:59 AM
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Only got to watch the 1st half yesterday. Listened to the 2nd half in the car (picked up WLW south of Louisville).

Huge Andre fan; however, I was surprised to see him not ranked bottom 5. Looked like Dummerville was having his way with him.
Thought Rey looked good except when he knocked the defender off of Decker late in the game.

To his credit. It is extremely hard to block Louisville Cardinals. Even for Whitworth. lol
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