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  #51  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

All players I list must have contributed to the team significantly.

Pro Bowlers/All Pros in Bold.

This will be long but.....

Patriots

01- Richard Seymour, Matt Light
02- Daniel Graham, Deion Branch, Jarvis Green, David Givens
03- Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Tully Banta-Cain
04- Vince Wilfork, Ben Watson
05- Logan Mankins, Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kaczur, James Sanders, Matt Cassell
06- David Thomas, Stephen Gostkowski, Jeremy Mincey
07- Brandon Merriweather
08- Jerrod Mayo
09- Pat Chung, Ron Brace, Sebatian Vollmer, Myron Pryor, Julian Edelman
10- Devin McCourty, Rob Gronkowski, Brandon Spikes, Aaron Hernandez, Zoltan Mesko

As you can see, theyhad awful drafts in 07 and 08 hitting on 1 player in each draft but both became Pro Bowl players.

Only 1 player the Patriots drafted in this time span didn't start for the Patriots but moved on and started for another team, Jeremy Mincey.

Steelers in next post......
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  #52  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Originally Posted by gardner30 View Post
I did a comparison of the Bengals drafts since 2001 to the Steelers and Patriots drafts since 2001.

What I found was that the Steelers and Patriots miss on just as many draft picks as the Bengals.

What I also found out is that the quality of guys the Steelers and Patriots hit on is VERY MUCH better than the Bengals.

You can directly correlate that to both scouting and coaching.

Both are far better for the Steelers and Patriots.
I don't doubt it ... I've always noted that good teams like the Pats whiff plenty in the draft. The difference is they'll cut those players loose and move on when they know they've whiffed instead of stubbornly sticking with them. And, as you alluded to, when the players you're hitting on are star players like Polamalu then the misses don't hurt too bad.
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  #53  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

Steelers.....

01- Casey Hampton, Kendrell Bell
02- Brett Keisel, Larry Foote, Chris Hope, Antwaan Randle-El
03- Troy Polamalu, Ike Taylor
04- Ben Roethlisberger, Max Starks
05- Heath Miller, Bryant McFadden, Trai Essex, Chris Kemoeatu
06- Santonio Holmes, Willie Colon
07- Lawrence Timmons, Lamar Woodley, Matt Spaeth, Daniel Sepulveda, William Gay
08- Rashard Mendenhall, Ryan Mundy
09- Ziggy Hood, Kraig Urbik, Mike Wallace, Keenan Lewis
10- Maurkice Pouncey, Emmanuel Sanders, Jon Dwyer, Antonio Brown

Only 1 player that did not develop and start for the Steelers went on to develop and start for another team, Kraig Urbik.
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  #54  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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I don't doubt it ... I've always noted that good teams like the Pats whiff plenty in the draft. The difference is they'll cut those players loose and move on when they know they've whiffed instead of stubbornly sticking with them. And, as you alluded to, when the players you're hitting on are star players like Polamalu then the misses don't hurt too bad.
Exactly.

Just because you start here doesn't mean your good, you just may be the best of the awful
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  #55  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

Zeitler is good

Brandon Thompson is good

Marvin Jones is good

Vontaze Burfict is good

All of these guys here i wanted in the draft..and we drafted them
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  #56  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Exactly.

Just because you start here doesn't mean your good, you just may be the best of the awful
Are you talking about me?

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  #57  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Are you talking about me?

Does he shave lines in his eyebrows?

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  #58  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Does he shave lines in his eyebrows?

That usually happens when someone gets them pierced to close to the skin.
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  #59  
Old 11-06-2012, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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That usually happens when someone gets them pierced to close to the skin.
Yikes
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  #60  
Old 11-06-2012, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/11/5...ver/in/3362377

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/11/5...unt/in/3362377

This is bunk.

UDFA Robinson got the start on Sunday and was pulled only after getting hurt.
UDFA Burfict has started several games.
UDFA Emmanuel Lamur had 24% of the snaps yesterday.
Hawkins is a 2nd year player and had 75% of the snaps.
Devon Still had 44% of the snaps.

BTW, when Peko got knicked up yesterday and left the field, Denver had its longest rush of 12 yards. Coincidence? Probably not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_NFL_Draft
Tell me which 1st round WR has been productive this year. You are expecting Marvin Jones (5th) & Sanu (3rd) to be more productive than Floyd & Blackmon? Ridiculous.

Burfict is only on the field because of an injury to a starter,,,,hawkins is only on the field cause we have no WR outside AJ,,,if we had a #2 i bet hawkins would prob have none or close to no snaps at all. Still is getting more snaps because peko flat out *****, ive been saying it for years and nobody believed me,,,PEKO *****!!! For his size its comical that 99% of the time he gets no push on the line. The dude averages like 1 sack a season,,,gets no push on the line to disrupt it,,was decent in run defense for awhile but is no longer good at that either. Dump the bum
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  #61  
Old 11-06-2012, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Originally Posted by gardner30 View Post
Players that have had more success after they left the Bengals that were drafted in the last 10 years or so include:

Justin Smith (Starter)
Ahmad Brooks (Starter)
Matt Toeania (Starter)
Corey Lynch (Nickel Safety)
Kelley Washington
Matt Schobel
Madieu Williams (Nickel Safety)
Clinton McDonald (Rotational DT that sees a lot of snaps)
Dez Brisoce (4th WR)

Thats not a lot of players since 2001.
you forgot JJ
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  #62  
Old 11-06-2012, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

No! Results speak for themselves! This whole organization just *****!
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  #63  
Old 11-07-2012, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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you forgot JJ
JJ was just as good here but he didn't get the recognition.
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  #64  
Old 11-07-2012, 11:45 AM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Burfict is only on the field because of an injury to a starter,,,,hawkins is only on the field cause we have no WR outside AJ,,,if we had a #2 i bet hawkins would prob have none or close to no snaps at all. Still is getting more snaps because peko flat out *****, ive been saying it for years and nobody believed me,,,PEKO *****!!! For his size its comical that 99% of the time he gets no push on the line. The dude averages like 1 sack a season,,,gets no push on the line to disrupt it,,was decent in run defense for awhile but is no longer good at that either. Dump the bum
Do the Bengals blindly start players who are paid more or not? The answer is no. As evidenced by Burfict, Hawkins, Still, etc.

It seems to me that you are saying that the better player is getting the snaps verses the higher paid player. Make "excuses" for it as you may. The fact remains that the Bengals DO NOT blindly play/start players based on salary.

I disagree about your accessment of Peko and your inferred argument that sacks are the primary measuring stick for a NT.
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  #65  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
We all know they get rated fairly highly by analysts at the time...but have they really made a big impact on the Bengals this season?

Let's examine:

2012:
Starters - Zeitler
Rotation Players - Still, Charles
Others - Thompson, Kirkpatrick, Sanu, Jones

My analysis - While this was considered a top 5 draft by analysts, the impact hasn't really been there. The Kirkpatrick injury definately hurt a lot. Zeitler has played well and is improving as the season goes on and shows great promise for the future, but when you don't sign major free agent upgrades...1 starter doesn't cut it.

2011:
Starters: AJ Green, Dalton, Boling
Others: Moch, Sands, Whalen

My analysis: AJ Green is an all-world WR. Dalton is an above average young QB. Boling has been pretty good at Guard after a disappointing rookie season. The rest of the draft picks this year didn't pan out to well. Drafting Moch over Demarco Murray was an epically bad move. Overall, this was a good draft.

2010:
Starters: Gresham, Dunlap, Atkins
Others: Ghee, Muckelroy

My analysis: Atkins was a great pick in the 4th round. Gresham has underachieved and has been a horrible blocker this year. He made the Pro Bowl, but that was more a product of major injuries at the TE position and the Super Bowl teams not sending representatives. Dunlap is inconsistant. When he's on...he's on. Some games he's totally neutralized. The rest of this draft has had no impact for the Bengals. Shipley, Hudson, Briscoe, and Stephens aren't Bengals, and Ghee has been injured and never really plays.

2009:
Starters: Andre Smith, Maualuga, Michael Johnson, Huber
Rotation Players: Bernard Scott (IR)

My analysis: Andre Smith is an above average to good Right Tackle. He's probably a Top 15 player. Maualuga is below average. Michael Johnson is inconsistant. Huber is an average punter. Bernard Scott was an average backup. Gone from the Bengals are Chase Coffman, Luigs, Trent, Vakapuna, McDonald, and Freddie Brown.

2008:
Starters: None
Rotation Players: Pat Sims (IR)
Others: Anthony Collins

My analysis: Bad draft. No starters are still on the roster. Gone are Simpson, Caldwell, Shirley, Lynch, Sherry, Craig, and Urrutia.

2007:
Starters: Leon Hall
Others: None

Leon Hall is the only 2007 draft pick still on the roster.

2006:
Starters: Whitworth, Peko
Others: None

My analysis: Gone are Joseph, Rucker, Nicholson, McNeal, Kilmer, and Brazell.

2005:
Starters: None
Others: None

No 2005 draft picks are still on the current roster.

2004:
Starters: None
Others: Geathers

My analysis: Robert Geathers is the only 2004 draft pick still on the current roster.

2004:
Starters: None
Others: None

No 2003 draft picks are still on the current roster.

Overall:
The Bengals have generally excelled with their 1st Round pick and sometimes 2nd. Outside of Atkins and Peko, their 4th Round down picks have yielded very little in the way of quality starters. Most of the 4th Round picks and lower are out of the NFL. Bernard Scott in the 6th Round was probably the best lower round pick.
I think we let a few get a way and a few rot marvins policey against playing a rookie unless he has too kills a good draft sometimes.
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  #66  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:14 PM
mulligan mulligan is offline
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardner30 View Post
All players I list must have contributed to the team significantly.

Pro Bowlers/All Pros in Bold.

This will be long but.....

Patriots

01- Richard Seymour, Matt Light
02- Daniel Graham, Deion Branch, Jarvis Green, David Givens
03- Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Tully Banta-Cain
04- Vince Wilfork, Ben Watson
05- Logan Mankins, Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kaczur, James Sanders, Matt Cassell
06- David Thomas, Stephen Gostkowski, Jeremy Mincey
07- Brandon Merriweather
08- Jerrod Mayo
09- Pat Chung, Ron Brace, Sebatian Vollmer, Myron Pryor, Julian Edelman
10- Devin McCourty, Rob Gronkowski, Brandon Spikes, Aaron Hernandez, Zoltan Mesko

As you can see, theyhad awful drafts in 07 and 08 hitting on 1 player in each draft but both became Pro Bowl players.

Only 1 player the Patriots drafted in this time span didn't start for the Patriots but moved on and started for another team, Jeremy Mincey.

Steelers in next post......
What did you learn from this exercise?

The "best" NFL teams average less than 2 hits per draft.
It seems to me that the bigger issue is that they retain their key/core players.

Patriots average 1.4 hits per draft.
Steelers average 1.3 hits per draft.

Last edited by mulligan; 11-07-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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  #67  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:36 PM
mulligan mulligan is offline
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
2006:
Starters: Whitworth, Peko
Others: None

My analysis: Gone are Joseph, Rucker, Nicholson, McNeal, Kilmer, and Brazell.
For the most part, all of your draft overviews are accurate. Maybe not 2006.

If the Bengals had more drafts like this, I would be very, very, very excited.
Unfortunately, this anticeeded a horrible, horrible 2005 draft; we just didn't know it at the time.

2006:
1 - Johnathan Joseph
2 - Andrew Whitworth
3 - Frostee Rucker
3 (supplemental) - Ahmad Brooks
4 - Domata Peko
5 - AJ Nicholson
6 - Reggie McNeal
7a - Ethan Kilmer
7b - Bennie Brazell
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  #68  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
What did you learn from this exercise?

The "best" NFL teams average less than 2 hits per draft.
It seems to me that the bigger issue is that they retain their key/core players.

Patriots average 1.4 hits per draft.
Steelers average 1.3 hits per draft.
You really missed the point of this. It doesn't matter how many Pro-Bowlers that you "hit", the real value is how many starters you get out of the process.

Look at those Patriot drafts and see how many solid starters they drafted each year.

With the Bengals, it's usually 1-2 starters per draft. It takes forever to build a team and a deep roster if you are only getting 1-2 AND you ignore free agency.
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  #69  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:52 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Originally Posted by Bengal4ever68 View Post
Zeitler is good

Brandon Thompson is good

Marvin Jones is good

Vontaze Burfict is good

All of these guys here i wanted in the draft..and we drafted them
Thompson and Jones rarely play. They have had very little impact on the team this season.

We don't know if they are good or bad. We do know that they've had no impact.
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  #70  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:54 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
For the most part, all of your draft overviews are accurate. Maybe not 2006.

If the Bengals had more drafts like this, I would be very, very, very excited.
Unfortunately, this anticeeded a horrible, horrible 2005 draft; we just didn't know it at the time.

2006:
1 - Johnathan Joseph
2 - Andrew Whitworth
3 - Frostee Rucker
3 (supplemental) - Ahmad Brooks
4 - Domata Peko
5 - AJ Nicholson
6 - Reggie McNeal
7a - Ethan Kilmer
7b - Bennie Brazell
I was looking strictly at past drafts impact on THIS season.

The "we must retain our own drafted player" model is sure broken when we only have 4 guys on our roster that were drafted 5 or more years ago.
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  #71  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

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Originally Posted by Hammerstripes View Post
You really missed the point of this. It doesn't matter how many Pro-Bowlers that you "hit", the real value is how many starters you get out of the process.

Look at those Patriot drafts and see how many solid starters they drafted each year.

With the Bengals, it's usually 1-2 starters per draft. It takes forever to build a team and a deep roster if you are only getting 1-2 AND you ignore free agency.
And clearly the Bengals haven't drafted well enough that they should forsake free agency.
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  #72  
Old 11-07-2012, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Retaining our own drafted players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Every great player we've had during the Mike Brown era has wanted out.

Boomer
Pickens
Dillon
Spikes
Chad
Carson

We've had a punter call out Mike Brown (Lee Johnson). A laundry list of players have had negative things to say about the franchise after they left. Most recently, Joseph commented on the cheapness of MB. So obviously nothing has changed.
These are players that were simply great talents. They would have succeeded anywhere. The problem is not the drafting of players it is that we cannot develop them on any level. (Boomer was pre-Mike's ownership).

They do not become NFL athletes - Chip Morton
They do not excel that their position or are unable to move to a spot that would suit their skills - Marvin, Hayes Bros., Alexander, etc., etc.

I believe that had the Steelers had the exact same rosters, they would have won a lot more games with them.
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  #73  
Old 11-07-2012, 01:35 PM
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Default Re: Retaining our own drafted players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Every great player we've had during the Mike Brown era has wanted out.

Boomer
Pickens
Dillon
Spikes
Chad
Carson

We've had a punter call out Mike Brown (Lee Johnson). A laundry list of players have had negative things to say about the franchise after they left. Most recently, Joseph commented on the cheapness of MB. So obviously nothing has changed.
Where does the Hall of Famer Anthony Munoz rate relative to these players?
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  #74  
Old 11-07-2012, 01:46 PM
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerstripes View Post
You really missed the point of this. It doesn't matter how many Pro-Bowlers that you "hit", the real value is how many starters you get out of the process.

Look at those Patriot drafts and see how many solid starters they drafted each year.

With the Bengals, it's usually 1-2 starters per draft. It takes forever to build a team and a deep roster if you are only getting 1-2 AND you ignore free agency.
No, I disagree. I think that it reflects more the importance of retaining core players and the incredible neutralizer of all things (excellent QB play).

Focusing on starters is a bit dicey. A team with horrible talent will start practically all of their rookies. Verses a team with excellent talent will practically not start any of their rookies. WTS, it doesn't necessarily mean that the first team had a better draft than the 2nd team.

In 2011, AJ Green (1st year starter), Dalton (1st year starter), Boling (2nd year starter).

In 2010, Gresham (1st year starter), Dunlap (heavy rotational player), Shipley (1st year starter), Atkins (2nd year starter).

Is Gresham a greater player than Atkins because Gresham started his 1st year? I think most people would say that Atkins is a greater player.
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:49 PM
Hammerstripes Hammerstripes is offline
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Default Re: Have our drafts really been that good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
No, I disagree. I think that it reflects more the importance of retaining core players and the incredible neutralizer of all things (excellent QB play).

Focusing on starters is a bit dicey. A team with horrible talent will start practically all of their rookies. Verses a team with excellent talent will practically not start any of their rookies. WTS, it doesn't necessarily mean that the first team had a better draft than the 2nd team.

In 2011, AJ Green (1st year starter), Dalton (1st year starter), Boling (2nd year starter).

In 2010, Gresham (1st year starter), Dunlap (heavy rotational player), Shipley (1st year starter), Atkins (2nd year starter).

Is Gresham a greater player than Atkins because Gresham started his 1st year? I think most people would say that Atkins is a greater player.
I didn't say "starters" I said "solid starters"

All you have to do is look at the past drafts and see that the Bengals only add 1-2 starters per draft.

Shoot, the Patriots added as many as 5 starters in some of those drafts.

By your reasoning (that bad teams will have more starters since they have worse players), the Bengals should be adding a heck of a lot more than 1-2 per year.
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