Gresham and the Offense.

[Aquapod770]

I hated the pick when we took him...(really wanted Earl Thomas but the Seahawks took him before he got to us ) That being said he hasn't lived up to the status of a first round pick. He has shown flashes of greatness at times, but has been very inconsistent overall. At first I thought it was because we weren't using him right, which may be true, but when we have put him in position to make plays...sometimes he has had crucial drops and fumbles. Last weeks game was definitely a positive one for Gresham, and hopefully he will continue to build upon it and reach a more consistent level of play.

[3wt]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

When you say he has drops (and he has) he has also alligator armed a few and rounded some routes...he hasn't EARNED a bigger role and going down field more.

I mean I think you're right about him not earning the bigger role. But his limited role is not working very well either, and I think we need to exploit his strengths as much as he can. Hopefully more consistent playing time will help him to refine his game.

One of the discouraging tendencies about Marvin is he seems to punish his players for not performing up to par. While I understand the concept I think it may be hurting us more than helping us.

• He doesn't play Dunlap for whatever - My guess is that he is not a good practice player
• He doesn't play Sanu very much for apparently the same reason
• He limits Gresham's snaps because of his mistakes
• He has unreasonable expectation about Mayes - then takes him off the field entirely because of his (stupid I'll grant you) mistakes

Just seems like we're taking a large portion of our best talent off the field because they're not perfect instead of honing them - not just individually, but as a unit.

I think we need to give them a more consistent opportunity to develope. The only guy he apparently has given a total mulligan to is Tate.

Now THAT's who needs to be benched!

[SHRacerX]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

That right there is the root of all the problems with Gresham. He's not a good blocker. Let me repeat that.. He. Is. Not. A. Good. Blocker.

Yet for some reason, the Bengals coaches keep trying to play him like he's Dan Coats or Reggie Kelly. The guy shouldn't be in to block most of the time. That's like keeping Hernandez or Graham in to block. They're not particularly great at it, and it's just a waste of receiving talent. Take a look at these stats for Gresham:

Bengals Win:
2 plays of 20+ yds

Bengals Loss:
3 plays of 20+ yds, 2 plays of 40+ yds

The only time they take shots down the field to Gresham and/or try to get him the ball frequently is later in the game when they're losing. They keep him in to block or just don't get him the ball at all for most of the game, letting him get the crap beaten out of him in blocking for 30-50 minutes of the game, and then suddenly throw the ball at him 5 times on one drive while they're trying to come from behind.

You have to keep a player involved in the game to keep his head involved in the game. The Bengals coaches simply don't know how to keep a TE involved in the gameplan for the entire game, just like they don't know how to defend a TE (I think it's 5 TDs allowed by TEs this year?).. I really think they just are horrible misusing and under-utilizing Gresham.

Does he have some stupid drops? Yes. That doesn't change the fact he's the team's 2nd best receiving threat and has size/speed/talent that should keep him involved in the passing game, not in the blocking game. I also think that even though he looks slow on the field, he's a lot faster than he seems. 6'5" takes some slow long strides, so while he's not looking fast, he covers a lot of ground.. dude's 260lbs. He moves for a man that size.

He may not be a "good" blocker, but he isn't terrible. He has improved and that is part of becoming an All-Pro TE. The flexibility to move him out or have him block is part of what makes a good offense. As far as "looking fast" or not due to a long stride....trust me...he is NOT fast at the games this season. And the whole point of keeping him in and sending Charles out in a pattern is to be unpredictable. Defenses see both of them, they will key on Gresh to go out. He is viewed as a pass-catching TE, not a blocking TE that can catch a pass. Charles has caught everything thrown his way. I would keep giving him opportunities as well as Gresh.

[Weazzel80]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Athletically, he's a beast. But as you say, he lacks passion. Honestly I think he's a bit soft too.

How can you judge the passion of an individual based upon what you see on TV?

[Helldog]

Originally Posted by Weazzel80

How can you judge the passion of an individual based upon what you see on TV?

You've never judged marvin's passion from what you've seen on TV?

[FootballBender]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Athletically, he's a beast. But as you say, he lacks passion. Honestly I think he's a bit soft too.

100% agree with you on this. I had high hopes for Gresh this year. Even drafted him on my FF team. Well I let him go when I lost faith in him a long time ago. Just like I'm losing faith with the rest of the season

[THE PISTONS]

Gresham is the guy who will have a huge year in his contract year, sign a huge contract, then a couple seasons later fans of whatever team will wonder how get got such a large contract.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Gresham is the guy who will have a huge year in his contract year, sign a huge contract, then a couple seasons later fans of whatever team will wonder how get got such a large contract.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/...innati-bengals

Is this a contract year?

Gresham is 2nd in practically every receiving statistic. First downs, yardage, yards per catch (4th), yards after catch, TD, average, 20+ yarders.

Gresham needs to be more consistant, catch the balls thrown to him.

Outside of AJ Green, Gresham will benefit the most when a WR2 steps up.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by mulligan

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/...innati-bengals

Is this a contract year?

Gresham is 2nd in practically every receiving statistic. First downs, yardage, yards per catch (4th), yards after catch, TD, average, 20+ yarders.

Gresham needs to be more consistant, catch the balls thrown to him.

Outside of AJ Green, Gresham will benefit the most when a WR2 steps up.

Exactly.

And his negatives this season have outweighed his positive contributions.

Not worried about Gresh long term, but he has laid a ton of eggs this year.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by mulligan

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/...innati-bengals

Is this a contract year?

Gresham is 2nd in practically every receiving statistic. First downs, yardage, yards per catch (4th), yards after catch, TD, average, 20+ yarders.

Gresham needs to be more consistant, catch the balls thrown to him.

Outside of AJ Green, Gresham will benefit the most when a WR2 steps up.

He was also ranked last on PFF in terms of TE's, drops a lot of passes, goes through the motions blocking, etc.

His stats are a product of not having a #2-caliber and possibly #3-caliber WR on the roster.

I don't see how a #2 WR is going to improve his blocking and concentration...

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by mulligan

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/...innati-bengals

Is this a contract year?

Gresham is 2nd in practically every receiving statistic. First downs, yardage, yards per catch (4th), yards after catch, TD, average, 20+ yarders.

Gresham needs to be more consistant, catch the balls thrown to him.

Outside of AJ Green, Gresham will benefit the most when a WR2 steps up.

I was hoping Gresham would take the next step so developing a 2nd WR wouldn't have to be a priority this year.

If Gresham became a consistent, legitimate receiving threat the 2nd WR in this offense would be a decoy.

Perfect for Jones/Sanu/Whalen/Binns to develop at their own pace instead of now having to rely on serious production from that spot because Gresham can't be the force he was drafted to be.

As Zerk mentioned earlier, he isn't trusted/hasn't earned to be a down field threat.

Hopefully the Denver game will change that.

To me, that is a glimpse of what Gresham could be, and it was GLORIOUS.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by 3wt

I mean I think you're right about him not earning the bigger role. But his limited role is not working very well either, and I think we need to exploit his strengths as much as he can. Hopefully more consistent playing time will help him to refine his game.


One of the discouraging tendencies about Marvin is he seems to punish his players for not performing up to par. While I understand the concept I think it may be hurting us more than helping us.

• He doesn't play Dunlap for whatever - My guess is that he is not a good practice player
• He doesn't play Sanu very much for apparently the same reason
• He limits Gresham's snaps because of his mistakes
• He has unreasonable expectation about Mayes - then takes him off the field entirely because of his (stupid I'll grant you) mistakes

Just seems like we're taking a large portion of our best talent off the field because they're not perfect instead of honing them - not just individually, but as a unit.

I think we need to give them a more consistent opportunity to develope. The only guy he apparently has given a total mulligan to is Tate.

Now THAT's who needs to be benched!

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/11/5...ive-snap-count

Against the Broncos, Dunlap played 38/63 snaps or 60%. I wouldn't qualify this as "not playing Dunlap." Nor would I access that Dunlap's "limited" snaps are because Dunlap doesn't "practice well." It seems to me that the strategy against the Broncos was to stop the run. WTS, Dunlap may not be the best run stopper, so he didn't get the most snaps. I also know that the Bengals want their pass-rushers fresh in the 4th quarter. To accomplish this, it helps if they don't get every snap prior.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/11/5...ver/in/3362377
Gresham played 75/76 snaps against the Broncos. I wouldn't qualify this as "limited".

As for Mays, in my view, Mays earned his "benching". He seems to be a defensive gadget player.

Brandon tate played 65/76 snaps (86%) against the Broncos, but I think that this is more of a function of the Bengals going mostly with 3 WR sets throughout the game. Binns had 6 snaps, Hawkins had 57 snaps, & Sanu had 12. Sanu seems to be more of a slot receiver, so I can understand (in part) why the slot receiver spot was split between Sanu & Hawkins.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

He was also ranked last on PFF in terms of TE's, drops a lot of passes, goes through the motions blocking, etc.

His stats are a product of not having a #2-caliber and possibly #3-caliber WR on the roster.

I don't see how a #2 WR is going to improve his blocking and concentration...

Numbers game.

AJ Green gets double-teamed, WR2 gets double teams, Slot gets single coverage, and TE gets single covered.

This is 6 defenders against Green, WR2, slot, & TE. 5 remaining defenders would result in less blitzes, more predicable pass rushes, and less pressure on the QB.

With less QB pressure, then Gresham can be more of a pass-first TE and less block-first.

WTS, he needs to get better at blocking. I agree.

[gardner30]

Aren't the Bengals supposed to have 2 near "Elite" Tackles?

Why is Gresham pass blocking all the time?

If you have a physical threat like Gresham wouldn't it be better to chip/block with a RB and send Gresham out in a route?

That's what most good offenses do.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by mulligan

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/11/5...ive-snap-count

Against the Broncos, Dunlap played 38/63 snaps or 60%. I wouldn't qualify this as "not playing Dunlap." Nor would I access that Dunlap's "limited" snaps are because Dunlap doesn't "practice well." It seems to me that the strategy against the Broncos was to stop the run. WTS, Dunlap may not be the best run stopper, so he didn't get the most snaps. I also know that the Bengals want their pass-rushers fresh in the 4th quarter. To accomplish this, it helps if they don't get every snap prior.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/11/5...ver/in/3362377
Gresham played 75/76 snaps against the Broncos. I wouldn't qualify this as "limited".

As for Mays, in my view, Mays earned his "benching". He seems to be a defensive gadget player.

Brandon tate played 65/76 snaps (86%) against the Broncos, but I think that this is more of a function of the Bengals going mostly with 3 WR sets throughout the game. Binns had 6 snaps, Hawkins had 57 snaps, & Sanu had 12. Sanu seems to be more of a slot receiver, so I can understand (in part) why the slot receiver spot was split between Sanu & Hawkins.

They use Dunlap a lot like the Colts used Mathis early in his career. Limit the snaps so he can go full speed and use him a lot on passing situations.

Plus, a guy like Dunlap was labelled as a kind of lazier player in college. I haven't saw one hint of that in the Pros. Maybe it has to do with less snaps which lets him go full steam...Maybe he was just tired in college...

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Aren't the Bengals supposed to have 2 near "Elite" Tackles?

Why is Gresham pass blocking all the time?

If you have a physical threat like Gresham wouldn't it be better to chip/block with a RB and send Gresham out in a route?

That's what most good offenses do.

There in lies an interesting question that I've thought about: If Gresham is such a poor pass blocker, why not send him into the routes? Why have him block DE's like Wake?

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

There in lies an interesting question that I've thought about: If Gresham is such a poor pass blocker, why not send him into the routes? Why have him block DE's like Wake?

Originally Posted by gardner30

Aren't the Bengals supposed to have 2 near "Elite" Tackles?

Why is Gresham pass blocking all the time?

If you have a physical threat like Gresham wouldn't it be better to chip/block with a RB and send Gresham out in a route?

That's what most good offenses do.

To risk the ire of Truck, perhaps, our near "elite" tackles aren't as elite in pass protection.

The Bronco LB is phenomenal. But, Andre gave up 3 sacks (2 with Von Miller & 1 with Dumervill). Is there a coincidence that Gresham seemed to run more routes on Sunday and our pass protection was suspect at times? Perhaps not.

On a different note, Chris Pressley played 4/76 snaps on Sunday. Does anyone else feel that it is about time for the Bengals to get a WCO FB? I just think that the Bengals need a more dual-threat FB.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

There in lies an interesting question that I've thought about: If Gresham is such a poor pass blocker, why not send him into the routes? Why have him block DE's like Wake?

Because the Bengals coaches are stuck in the 90's.

They are not innovators.

Gruden was supposed to be this "Bright, Young OC" but its a lie.

Bright, young OCs don't spend time in the UFL.

Bright, young OCs are developing the TE position into a unstoppable force and finding ways to use the weapons they have.

We keep using the traditional 90's offense.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see Hawkins in a Darren Sproles type role?

Or even a Dexter McCluster type role?

The kid has big play ability, find different ways to get him the ball dammit.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by mulligan

To risk the ire of Truck, perhaps, our near "elite" tackles aren't as elite in pass protection.

The Bronco LB is phenomenal. But, Andre gave up 3 sacks (2 with Von Miller & 1 with Dumervill). Is there a coincidence that Gresham seemed to run more routes on Sunday and our pass protection was suspect at times? Perhaps not.

On a different note, Chris Pressley played 4/76 snaps on Sunday. Does anyone else feel that it is about time for the Bengals to get a WCO FB? I just think that the Bengals need a more dual-threat FB.

Does Pressley have trouble catching the ball?

I've seen Andy throw it to him once and Pressley caught it.

The personnel won't matter if the scheme doesn't change for the personnel.

A WCO FB wouldn't get used here either.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Because the Bengals coaches are stuck in the 90's.

They are not innovators.

Gruden was supposed to be this "Bright, Young OC" but its a lie.

Bright, young OCs don't spend time in the UFL.

Bright, young OCs are developing the TE position into a unstoppable force and finding ways to use the weapons they have.

We keep using the traditional 90's offense.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see Hawkins in a Darren Sproles type role?

Or even a Dexter McCluster type role?

The kid has big play ability, find different ways to get him the ball dammit.

This may be a bit harsh and off.

Pressley had hardly an snaps on Sunday. The Bengals were pretty much in a 3 WR set all game against the Broncos.

Hawkins is a "midget." Is this why there have been so many batted down balls?

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by mulligan

To risk the ire of Truck, perhaps, our near "elite" tackles aren't as elite in pass protection.

The Bronco LB is phenomenal. But, Andre gave up 3 sacks (2 with Von Miller & 1 with Dumervill). Is there a coincidence that Gresham seemed to run more routes on Sunday and our pass protection was suspect at times? Perhaps not.

On a different note, Chris Pressley played 4/76 snaps on Sunday. Does anyone else feel that it is about time for the Bengals to get a WCO FB? I just think that the Bengals need a more dual-threat FB.

Why couldn't Leonard be used as a fullback in certain situations?

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Does Pressley have trouble catching the ball?

I've seen Andy throw it to him once and Pressley caught it.

The personnel won't matter if the scheme doesn't change for the personnel.

A WCO FB wouldn't get used here either.

I don't think that a WCO FB wouldn't get used here either.

Any thoughts on why the Bengals can't successfully execute a screen pass to a RB?

They haven't (seemingly) attempted all year, and when they tried against the Broncos, it was a night mare.

Is it Dalton? He gets passes knocked down attempting to get the ball to Hawkins. And the RB screen game was a nightmare.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Because the Bengals coaches are stuck in the 90's.

They are not innovators.

Gruden was supposed to be this "Bright, Young OC" but its a lie.

Bright, young OCs don't spend time in the UFL.

Bright, young OCs are developing the TE position into a unstoppable force and finding ways to use the weapons they have.

We keep using the traditional 90's offense.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see Hawkins in a Darren Sproles type role?

Or even a Dexter McCluster type role?

The kid has big play ability, find different ways to get him the ball dammit.

IF they used Gresham like the Patriots use Gronkowski or Hernandez...we wouldn't be desperate to add a #2 WR...and I think Sanu, Jones, Binns, Tate, and Hawkins would be adequate.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by mulligan

I don't think that a WCO FB wouldn't get used here either.

Any thoughts on why the Bengals can't successfully execute a screen pass to a RB?

They haven't (seemingly) attempted all year, and when they tried against the Broncos, it was a night mare.

Is it Dalton? He gets passes knocked down attempting to get the ball to Hawkins. And the RB screen game was a nightmare.

The other team seems to sniff it out so easily when they do. I see other teams like the Steelers pick up a lot of yards on them.

Some of the Bengals tendencies are predictable. Like when they are going to run they bring the TE in motion and have him stop by the tackle. It's obvious.

Maybe they have some sort of tell for screens?

I'll watch closer this week.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Why couldn't Leonard be used as a fullback in certain situations?

Idk. Leonard is 225 lbs. Pressley is 260 lbs. Maybe Leonard is too poor at run blocking to be effective in a 2 back set. Again, I just don't know.