Gresham and the Offense.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

IF they used Gresham like the Patriots use Gronkowski or Hernandez...we wouldn't be desperate to add a #2 WR...and I think Sanu, Jones, Binns, Tate, and Hawkins would be adequate.

I agree.

2 things. Dalton needs to improve every week. Gresham has to be a playmaker. Of course AJ is going to be AJ. But, it seems to me the lynch pin is really Gresham.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Does Pressley have trouble catching the ball?

I've seen Andy throw it to him once and Pressley caught it.

The personnel won't matter if the scheme doesn't change for the personnel.

A WCO FB wouldn't get used here either.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/...innati-bengals

I laughed when I looked this up. You are correct. Pressley did catch a ball . . . that netted 1 yard in receiving for a TD.

But he has only had 2 targets this year.

[captainkd]

The problem with Gresham, the offense and the rest of the team is no passion or winning attitude. Why, because the top management has no passion and has never won anything in his life. I doubt that MIke has ever won a card game, a golf match, a bowling league or anything. If you are not a winner you are a loser, plane and simple. Mike does not know what winning is because he has never experienced winning anything.

As far as the coaches, he hires coaches with the same personality that he has. Our only winning years was with Forrest Gregg and Sam Wyche and their personalities clashed with Mike's and he could not have them on his team.

That's why our good players are destroyed after joining the team. Mike makes every one a loser. Marvin's personality matches perfectly with Mike's.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by mulligan

Idk. Leonard is 225 lbs. Pressley is 260 lbs. Maybe Leonard is too poor at run blocking to be effective in a 2 back set. Again, I just don't know.

Looking at their weights, that's all people should need to know. Leonard doesn't have the necessary strength or bulk. He's been blown up by edge rushers before, so what makes people think he could be a lead blocker in the ground game?

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Looking at their weights, that's all people should need to know. Leonard doesn't have the necessary strength or bulk. He's been blown up by edge rushers before, so what makes people think he could be a lead blocker in the ground game?

Leonard was used as a FB early in his career and it destroyed his shoulders.

I don't think he would want to do it either.

He is the best pass blocker the Bengals have IMO.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by mulligan

I don't think that a WCO FB wouldn't get used here either.

Any thoughts on why the Bengals can't successfully execute a screen pass to a RB?

They haven't (seemingly) attempted all year, and when they tried against the Broncos, it was a night mare.

Is it Dalton? He gets passes knocked down attempting to get the ball to Hawkins. And the RB screen game was a nightmare.

PLEASE tell me that was a typo and not an attempt at a pun, otherwise that was terrible.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

PLEASE tell me that was a typo and not an attempt at a pun, otherwise that was terrible.

It was neither a typo nor an attempt at a pun. How do you spell "nightmare"?

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by mulligan

It was neither a typo nor an attempt at a pun. How do you spell "nightmare"?

There was a space, night mare instead of nightmare. Mare = Horse, Bronco = Horse.

[BengalsRocker]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

That right there is the root of all the problems with Gresham. He's not a good blocker. Let me repeat that.. He. Is. Not. A. Good. Blocker.

Yet for some reason, the Bengals coaches keep trying to play him like he's Dan Coats or Reggie Kelly. The guy shouldn't be in to block most of the time. That's like keeping Hernandez or Graham in to block. They're not particularly great at it, and it's just a waste of receiving talent. Take a look at these stats for Gresham:

Bengals Win:
2 plays of 20+ yds

Bengals Loss:
3 plays of 20+ yds, 2 plays of 40+ yds

The only time they take shots down the field to Gresham and/or try to get him the ball frequently is later in the game when they're losing. They keep him in to block or just don't get him the ball at all for most of the game, letting him get the crap beaten out of him in blocking for 30-50 minutes of the game, and then suddenly throw the ball at him 5 times on one drive while they're trying to come from behind.

You have to keep a player involved in the game to keep his head involved in the game. The Bengals coaches simply don't know how to keep a TE involved in the gameplan for the entire game, just like they don't know how to defend a TE (I think it's 5 TDs allowed by TEs this year?).. I really think they just are horrible misusing and under-utilizing Gresham.

Does he have some stupid drops? Yes. That doesn't change the fact he's the team's 2nd best receiving threat and has size/speed/talent that should keep him involved in the passing game, not in the blocking game. I also think that even though he looks slow on the field, he's a lot faster than he seems. 6'5" takes some slow long strides, so while he's not looking fast, he covers a lot of ground.. dude's 260lbs. He moves for a man that size.

Originally Posted by 3wt

I think you make some good points here.

I think, especially with the #2 receiver issue unresolved, we need to use him more as a receiver. The guy does get open, he has drops when he loses concentration, but he's got decent hands.

He has a lot of receptions and a lot of talent. He needs as many reps as we can get him and we need to minimize his weaknesses right now (blocking and inconsistency).

I like your idea of keeping him on the field to keep his head in the game. In fact I think we should run our offense more like that. I'd like to see us run a no huddle offense for extended portions of the game, developing chemistry and giving the chance for the players to get into a rythm - while keeping the defense guessing and wearing them down.

I'd like to see two varieties of this: a two back set with Leonard and BJGE. You don't know who's running, blocking or receiving. Complement that with Sanu, Green and Gresham and vary the depth of their routes. Or do a single back set and either go with 2 tight ends or another wide receiver. With Jones down right now I'd favor the 2 tight ends. There are any number of ways to utilize the 2nd TE while you march down the field.

Play them an entire series that way. And no friggin time outs when you get in the red zone. Ride the momentum all the way into the end zone. All those guys have the potential to score, and both BJGE and Leonard can block or pick up the blitz.

The Bengals seem too disjointed to me, and seem to stop their own momentum instead of riding it.

I think you two are spot on here. Gresh needs to be worked if not pushed into the system. If there really is a system even in place. I often wonder if his sometimes lackadaisical play is brought on by him not being used properly and it frustrates him. If he's given more inventive opportunities in the pass plays and continues to drop, they should go with Charles.

The momentum killing stuff this team continues to do has to stop. It's getting pretty frickin' ridiculous. Stop being cute, stop trying to ovethink it... and put it in the endzone.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Athletically, he's a beast. But as you say, he lacks passion. Honestly I think he's a bit soft too.

I wouldn't go as far as beast, athletically. He is big. And he probably has decent straight line speed, once he gets going. He isn't very fluid, though, is he? He seems to lumber, which can be confused with lack of effort sometimes. I don't look at him and see much quickness. If you don't have quickness, you'd better be throwing your weight around. He does that sometimes. If he did it all the time, then we'd have something.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with his hands. It's all about concentration.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by BengalsRocker

I think you two are spot on here. Gresh needs to be worked if not pushed into the system. If there really is a system even in place. I often wonder if his sometimes lackadaisical play is brought on by him not being used properly and it frustrates him. If he's given more inventive opportunities in the pass plays and continues to drop, they should go with Charles.

The momentum killing stuff this team continues to do has to stop. It's getting pretty frickin' ridiculous. Stop being cute, stop trying to ovethink it... and put it in the endzone.

Exactly, I don't know why the Bengals don't have amazing redzone TD numbers. They try to do all these ridiculous things when in the red zone. Why not just throw Green to one side of the endzone, Gresham to the other side, and then throw up a jump ball to whomever has the better matchup at the time? Two guys over 6'4" each, who can jump and have long arms being covered by guys who are generally 6'2" or shorter.... Shouldn't be that hard. Gresham should have monsterous numbers in the redzone.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by McC

I wouldn't go as far as beast, athletically. He is big. And he probably has decent straight line speed, once he gets going. He isn't very fluid, though, is he? He seems to lumber, which can be confused with lack of effort sometimes. I don't look at him and see much quickness. If you don't have quickness, you'd better be throwing your weight around. He does that sometimes. If he did it all the time, then we'd have something.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with his hands. It's all about concentration.

Your description is spot on IMO.

I have seen flashes of superior athleticism.

That catch in the endzone (last year?) was pretty freakin athletic.

I'm not sure if he understands or knows how to use his skills.

You know Hayes isn't going to teach him.

[BengalsRocker]

Originally Posted by McC

I wouldn't go as far as beast, athletically. He is big. And he probably has decent straight line speed, once he gets going. He isn't very fluid, though, is he? He seems to lumber, which can be confused with lack of effort sometimes. I don't look at him and see much quickness. If you don't have quickness, you'd better be throwing your weight around. He does that sometimes. If he did it all the time, then we'd have something.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with his hands. It's all about concentration.

I think that is the real head scratcher.


It almost appears by his body language that he's not trying as much as he could be. Perhaps it's really his size and the way he lumbers with the ball that fools you into thinking it's a lack of effort. I don't really see him being very fluid with his movement. Which still leaves me to believe they need to get him some routes where he's facing the goal line. Try to hit him in stride. Instead of ones where he seems to have to curl, stop, or come back for them.

Then again... maybe that's a Dalton issue. Either he's throwing too fast and not letting the play develop, or too late and Gresh has to wait or come back to the pass. Which leads him into believing he's going to get cracked when he does catch it (alligator arms).

[BengalRugby]

Read a lot of this thread and much blame is heaped on Gresham. But if the Bengals used him more towards his strengths, he's more likely to succeed, versus trying to make him Reggie Kelly 2.0 where he's more likely to fail miserably.

The other shoe has to drop on the Bengals abysmal TE coach, who hasn't done anything with Gresham. Heck, he couldn't even teach Coffman to block, and it could be argued that he ruined the kid's career via the whole Bengals experience.

I believe Black Jesus is meddling in the playcalling, and that why this brand new West Coast offense still looks so familiar to the old Brat offense. Giggles' fingerprints are all over it. Hopefully Hue Jackson will replace that albatross around the team's neck and really open up the offense next season.


It's not a player issue, it's a coaching issue. Hence why the Patriots "lucked out" and got 2 TE's the work great in their system, and the Bengals got the best TE in the draft and he's having issues.

[BengalsRocker]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

Read a lot of this thread and much blame is heaped on Gresham. But if the Bengals used him more towards his strengths, he's more likely to succeed, versus trying to make him Reggie Kelly 2.0 where he's more likely to fail miserably.

The other shoe has to drop on the Bengals abysmal TE coach, who hasn't done anything with Gresham. Heck, he couldn't even teach Coffman to block, and it could be argued that he ruined the kid's career via the whole Bengals experience.

I believe Black Jesus is meddling in the playcalling, and that why this brand new West Coast offense still looks so familiar to the old Brat offense. Giggles' fingerprints are all over it. Hopefully Hue Jackson will replace that albatross around the team's neck and really open up the offense next season.


It's not a player issue, it's a coaching issue. Hence why the Patriots "licked out" and got 2 TE's the work great in their system, and the Bengals got the best TE in the draft and he's having issues.

This.

The O line coach has to go too. We need to get new blood and get the right personnel for them. We have some guys who can play already. They just need to be taught and motivated better.

I'm getting awful tired of seeing our O line not be able to block for a screen or not be able to do things even a mediocre team can do. Is it mental? Is it physical? Whatever it is, it's not up to par with the league... and that's being nice.

Paul Alexander is a relic. Even if he can coach he can't develop a player and make him better. You know it was bad when even Willie made negative comments about him.

I know a lot of people on these boards want to see a WR/RB drafted high next draft.

I still say we need to get O line and D line guys first. Especially high round because then we'll at least have talent and not have to depend on poor coaching. That is why Palmer's old line was so good. They were good. They didn't need PA and his ancient ways.

[D's Nuts and Bolts]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Many of us were hoping that Gresham would be the force this year that allowed the Bengals to get away with not signing a legitimate 2nd WR in the offseason.

Until the Denver game he has largely disappointed (me anyways).

I witnessed a Gresham I haven't seen before during the Denver game.

He was working the zones and separating using his size, something he hardly did prior.

He gave Andy a reason to trust throwing the ball to him.

I would still like to see him run the ball with more authority and fight for yards after catch but it was the first time I was impressed with Gresham aside from a few plays scattered about his career here.

If Gresham plays the rest of the year like he played against Denver, this could be a fun offense to watch the remainder of the season.

I was hoping he would perform like that ALL year long but lets hope Sunday was the day he finally decided to take the training wheels off.

Does anyone else see Gresham taking the next step here?

Green and Gresham could be a lethal combo.

With Green drawing so much attention Gresham and the RB should be big options in the passing game. You would think that BJGE, or Lenorad would have 5 catches a game. Green takes the top off, Gresham runs the middle, RB or Hawk, or Sanu out of the backfield for a screen. Some more Wildcat with Sanu would be nice. At this point humor us.

Someone posted that they think ML has his hands in this O and I would have to agree because it looks more like Brat's O more and more each week.

[bengaljunky86]

i dont really have a problem with gresh hes been solid to me he will put up another 700 to 800 yards Rec and have his 6 to 8 tds not that bad for a tight end imo...

[D's Nuts and Bolts]

Originally Posted by bengaljunky86

i dont really have a problem with gresh hes been solid to me he will put up another 700 to 800 yards Rec and have his 6 to 8 tds not that bad for a tight end imo...

True but he is not a blocker at all like they want, so if they played to his "stenghts" maybe he could top 1000 with 10 TD.s

I said it at the begining of the year, they should be studying NE and NO offense. Granted those teams both have HOF QB's. Brees however was good not great before he went to NO.

[Derrick]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

We've been waiting a long time for Gresh to take the next step. Call me a pessimist, but I'm thinking the Denver game is just something that we'll just see every now and then with Gresh. I don't think it will ever be something we will consistently see.

If Gresham watches film of other TEs who make a difference, he might see what he is expected to do for the Bengals.

SHOW HIM SOME FILM, GRUDEN!!!

[momadance02]

Originally Posted by Derrick

If Gresham watches film of other TEs who make a difference, he might see what he is expected to do for the Bengals.

SHOW HIM SOME FILM, GRUDEN!!!

Yeah, he's expected to block.

Why would they want him to put up numbers similar to Gronk and Graham when he could be such a good blocker!

Haha

[3wt]

Originally Posted by mulligan

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/11/5...ive-snap-count

Against the Broncos, Dunlap played 38/63 snaps or 60%. I wouldn't qualify this as "not playing Dunlap." Nor would I access that Dunlap's "limited" snaps are because Dunlap doesn't "practice well." It seems to me that the strategy against the Broncos was to stop the run. WTS, Dunlap may not be the best run stopper, so he didn't get the most snaps. I also know that the Bengals want their pass-rushers fresh in the 4th quarter. To accomplish this, it helps if they don't get every snap prior.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/11/5...ver/in/3362377
Gresham played 75/76 snaps against the Broncos. I wouldn't qualify this as "limited".

As for Mays, in my view, Mays earned his "benching". He seems to be a defensive gadget player.

Brandon tate played 65/76 snaps (86%) against the Broncos, but I think that this is more of a function of the Bengals going mostly with 3 WR sets throughout the game. Binns had 6 snaps, Hawkins had 57 snaps, & Sanu had 12. Sanu seems to be more of a slot receiver, so I can understand (in part) why the slot receiver spot was split between Sanu & Hawkins.

Good points all - Dunlap played enough snaps to get rocking against Denver and did not, and the rotation should have favored Geathers staying "fresh"; Gresham played more Sunday so you're right it was not limited play, Mays earned his benching with consistently stupid play - especially the friendly fire; and Sanu appears to be more of a slot guy in general.

But I think the increased snaps helped Gresham, and I stand by my belief that the Bengals need to get what they perceive to be their best 11 on the field and base their multiple looks more on formations than substitutions. Let them start getting into a rythm and don't overthink the critical downs. Let your offense do their job. Make adjustments between the series.

And I think Sanu has the ability to surprise on the long routes. He's just a football player whose juices get flowing the more he is in the game. When Jones heals up put him in the game too.

Tate has shown me enough to believe we should limit him to kick returns.

And besides his boneheaded need to launch himself like a scud missle I think Mays has done enough to warrant more playing time to see if he can realize his potential. This week he gets a shot.

If he doesn't if increases the urgency to draft a safety high in '13.

[Benny the dog]

I had hoped that Gruden would have a clue how to better use personnel than Brat did but he seems to also be struggling in how to best use his players. Gresh is a bit soft. You can tell this how despite being 260lbs he never runs through guys but uses finesse to find space. That being said he has skills and can be used better. My biggest frustration with Gresh is he always looks like he is going to fumble -when he doesn't I am shocked cause he carries it so loose.

I really think his overall lack of success is the coaching. Too often he is kept into block which A) takes away from his strength which is as a receiver plays to his weakness which is toughness/blocking. Also, he to often is the outlet guy who runs five yard curls where he gets tackled immediately after he catches. This guy needs to be used down the field or at least get put in a position where he is catching the ball while moving.

Coaching makes all of the difference. The Bengals draft a guy and then fit him into their system. We use our TE to block so Gresh. Coffman etc need to block (I have no idea of Coff is any good but the criticism from the coaches was he can't block). Good coaches adapt their system around the skills and abilities of their players.

Case in point -Patriots --They get great production out of a number of players. Belichek took Welker and put him in a position to be great -- Kevin Faulk was a great weapon on third down as he was always catching the ball in space guarded by a LB -- when Beli could get two athletic TE's he changed his entire offense to capitalize on what they could do. Brady is great but remember this offense was great with Cassell who has proven to be not very good.

Even the Steelers adjust their offense to capitalize on strengths. How may screens were thrown to their WR's? They have explosive players and so they work to get the ball in their hands. I was dying when I kept hearing the commentators talk about Roethlisberger being frustrated about the dink and dunk offense as I was watching successful screen passes followed by wide open 15 yard passes across the middle.

On occasion the Bengals have had some innovative playcalling but too little and they still seem to want to run a very basic offense

Ps Don't even get me started on all of the talk about RBBC - and Gruden's use of BJGE as a full-time back. This would not be as frustrating if BJGE was a stud --which he is not - or if whoever came in as the change of pace was useless but this year the change of pace back has usually gained positive yards on their 1-2 carries .. Minimally it might be nice if teams had to alter their defense to adjust to the personnel on the field instead of knowing that the change of pace back will only be seen on the third offensive series of the game

[bengalfan74]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

We've been waiting a long time for Gresh to take the next step. Call me a pessimist, but I'm thinking the Denver game is just something that we'll just see every now and then with Gresh. I don't think it will ever be something we will consistently see.

Same thing I was thinking. I had high hopes for Gresh, but it seems for whatever reasons he's already peaked.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Many of us were hoping that Gresham would be the force this year that allowed the Bengals to get away with not signing a legitimate 2nd WR in the offseason.

Until the Denver game he has largely disappointed (me anyways).

I witnessed a Gresham I haven't seen before during the Denver game.

He was working the zones and separating using his size, something he hardly did prior.

He gave Andy a reason to trust throwing the ball to him.

I would still like to see him run the ball with more authority and fight for yards after catch but it was the first time I was impressed with Gresham aside from a few plays scattered about his career here.

If Gresham plays the rest of the year like he played against Denver, this could be a fun offense to watch the remainder of the season.

I was hoping he would perform like that ALL year long but lets hope Sunday was the day he finally decided to take the training wheels off.

Does anyone else see Gresham taking the next step here?

Green and Gresham could be a lethal combo.

It is happening

[SHRacerX]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Many of us were hoping that Gresham would be the force this year that allowed the Bengals to get away with not signing a legitimate 2nd WR in the offseason.

Until the Denver game he has largely disappointed (me anyways).

I witnessed a Gresham I haven't seen before during the Denver game.

He was working the zones and separating using his size, something he hardly did prior.

He gave Andy a reason to trust throwing the ball to him.

I would still like to see him run the ball with more authority and fight for yards after catch but it was the first time I was impressed with Gresham aside from a few plays scattered about his career here.

If Gresham plays the rest of the year like he played against Denver, this could be a fun offense to watch the remainder of the season.

I was hoping he would perform like that ALL year long but lets hope Sunday was the day he finally decided to take the training wheels off.

Does anyone else see Gresham taking the next step here?

Green and Gresham could be a lethal combo.

I think you are dead on. He played, well, ****** off. Maybe someone should crap in his coffee before every game if him being angry gets him to play with that kind of passion. I loved it, and I have been very critical of his effort throughout most of this season.

And while I somewhat agree that AJ and Gresh make a "lethal combination", it is the synergy that Marvin Jones, Sanu, Hawkins, Gresh, Charles, and AJ will have TOGETHER down the stretch that will ultimately fuel this playoff run.

I'm hopeful for more Peerman. It not only helps BJGE stay "fresher", but he has speed to break some big plays and I think their interior line is really starting to develop as road graders. Robinson has improved dramatically, which is no small feat.