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  #1  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:07 PM
EyeOfTheTiger EyeOfTheTiger is offline
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Default Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

I have posited the idea before - its not the players, its the coaching. And by that I am not even talking about game planning or training or utilizing player's strengths. The coaches don't do those things well either, but the problem with the coaches is the choice on WHO to play or not.

Who is on the PS and who makes the roster?

Who on the roster is activated and who isn't activated?

When there is an injury - do you call up a guy who has been with the team the entire time (Trevor Robinson) or do you get a guy who has been eating potato chips on his couch for half a year (Faine)?

This is why we are losing.

WR

Tate and Binns start. While Sanu, Jones, and Whalen should have been the ones that had seen playing time. Tate since the losing streak began - has all of THREE catches. Over 5 games - 3 catches.

Yet this guy STARTS for this team! Not to mention the muffed punts. But the coaches use him as an essential cog on this team. Why? Is it ego? Is a position coach or coordinator not willing to admit his mistake? Is whoever picked him up from New England unwilling to admit they were wrong?

This guy starts for this team. And he has all of 3 catches. Whalen in the first game he was activated LED the team in receptions. Against the Steelers.

Binns and Tate should head to the inactive. I would preferably like to see them on the PS or cut - but I don't think the coaches are that smart.

Center

Robinson over Faine. Forever. From now on. I would even play a healthy Robinson over a gimpy Cook. You can't do your job if you aren't 100% and Cook's injury is serious. Robinson all the way.

RB

Peerman FINALLY got some carries. FINALLY! After he had 8 catches for 78 yards one game - he didn't see the field until BJGE had a malfunction with his helmet. On that one and only play he was in on offense that game - he scored a Touchdown. And runs a perfect punt fake another game. And busts his butt on STs every game. Use this guy! The game he had 8 catches - Gruden would have him run out from I Form to line up as a WR. And it worked! Why not have a RB that can have that extra dimension to game plan?

LB

How in the world was Lamur on PS all year when we lost our best coverage LB? Only because Moch got migraines again did we call him up. He would be languishing on the PS because the LB coach is too dumb to see who is good and who isn't.

There are other positions - Safety and CB - that the coaches aren't starting the best guys. But these are the mains ones. It only took more than half the season for the coaches to finally wise up.

We have the talent. Just they don't play. On top of that, I shudder to think the coaching and training from this crack team. Or even how players are used - for god's sake stop using Gresham to block! But at least we can get the best players out on the field!
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

Winston Zeddemore: We have the tools, and we have the talent.
Dr. Peter Venkman: It's Miller time
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:34 PM
Hammerstripes Hammerstripes is offline
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

Yes, it is still the talent.

There are a few things that you don't take into consideration:

1. We are 8 games into the season. I really don't think that you want to trust a rookie with NO games under his belt as the #2 WR. Sanu is seeing more time, as was Marvin Jones before he got hurt. Why? Probably because they were finally ready to play. You can't just throw a rookie into the mix until the player is ready. I don't think you would find too many coaches that would have thrown Jones or Sanu on the field until they were ready.

2. Trevor Robinson? Come on. Again, are you going to throw an undrafted rookie into the mix with zero experience? Why is he playing now? Because he is ready.

3. Lamur? He's looking pretty good, but just wait until teams have some film on him. Then they might take a look at exposing him.

You make some compelling arguments, but a lot of them fall short when you are calling for late round picks and undrafted rookies to just jump into the lineup with no game experience. Moves like that don't make much sense.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

We have the talent. If the past few years are any indicator we will add to that with 3 picks in the first two rounds of this year's draft. What we don't have is the organizational culture that not only fosters, but demands excellence from the top down.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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You make some compelling arguments, but a lot of them fall short when you are calling for late round picks and undrafted rookies to just jump into the lineup with no game experience. Moves like that don't make much sense.
Agreed....

Most coaches are not gonna be starting a UDFA rookie or a late rounder unless they have too..

usually the less rookies you have to start game 1 the better of you are as a team. (not because the rookies **** but because your not forced to start them. which means you have decent players on the roster)

Injuries and other factors kick in and the young guys get a chance to be the next man up. Which will definately help them stick next year if they show good this year.

Lamur was a pleasant suprise. Just like Burfict. So we are starting 2 UDFA LBer's... Now they might have been the best 2 from the start but its usually best to get them up to speed first. and not take unneeded risk when your returning almost your entire D that had a very good showning from the year before with a few additions that should have made them better.

Sometimes the coaches get scared to play younger players believing that any gap in skill/speed that the vet gives up they make up for it in experience.

NFL is violent live action chess.... and not every player even gets a shot to see the field or a NFL Training camp. and with a lot of good/great players in the league being undrafted... it makes you wonder how much talent gets lost because of draft hype and school names.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

We don't have talent at RB
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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We don't have talent at RB
This. Dalton is putting up nice numbers without an ounce of a running game. If the team were to actually make a nice signing for the RB position the offense could turn out to be downright scary.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:37 PM
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bengals Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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Originally Posted by Hammerstripes View Post
Yes, it is still the talent.

There are a few things that you don't take into consideration:

1. We are 8 games into the season. I really don't think that you want to trust a rookie with NO games under his belt as the #2 WR. Sanu is seeing more time, as was Marvin Jones before he got hurt. Why? Probably because they were finally ready to play. You can't just throw a rookie into the mix until the player is ready. I don't think you would find too many coaches that would have thrown Jones or Sanu on the field until they were ready.

2. Trevor Robinson? Come on. Again, are you going to throw an undrafted rookie into the mix with zero experience? Why is he playing now? Because he is ready.

3. Lamur? He's looking pretty good, but just wait until teams have some film on him. Then they might take a look at exposing him.

You make some compelling arguments, but a lot of them fall short when you are calling for late round picks and undrafted rookies to just jump into the lineup with no game experience. Moves like that don't make much sense.

i do believe our rookies do not see the field until year two or at best late in their first season is because marvin lewis does not allow rooks to practice with the number 1's during training camp, so they do not get enough experience to start in the nfl. that being said, i do believe mike tomlin and the coach of the seahawks start working rookies right away and thats why you see they making huge contributions early in the season.just sayin.i felt like sanu and marvin jones was ready to play day one. i mean brandon tate lost the ball sunday. i think he should be let go with all the talent we have and play armon binns, baby hawk and sanu and whalen. thats just my opinion.was so happy to see this big win.now all the critics are saying oh well, the gaints were just tired and worn down because they play in a tougher division. what???what a joke. the bengals beat the crap out of them, hands down.i just hope they keep it going.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:42 PM
fortyyearfan fortyyearfan is offline
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bengals Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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We don't have talent at RB

we so need a running back. why in crap did they draft boom herron from ohio state if they will not play the guy??? what a wasted draft pick if you are not going to play the dude.the law firm is NOT GETTING IT DONE.so far he is a bust.he just cannot break tackles. cid benson was better than this guy.come on, man. we so need a running back.i just know there is one out there to help. thats what is going to be the downfall of this team as it has been up to now, and this coaching staff 9 games in still has not addressed this big big problem.watch the stoolers tonight. they will get at least 100 yards for their backs. its sickening to watch this team try to run the ball and just go no where.stupid really.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:48 PM
fortyyearfan fortyyearfan is offline
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bengals Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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Originally Posted by EyeOfTheTiger View Post
I have posited the idea before - its not the players, its the coaching. And by that I am not even talking about game planning or training or utilizing player's strengths. The coaches don't do those things well either, but the problem with the coaches is the choice on WHO to play or not.

Who is on the PS and who makes the roster?

Who on the roster is activated and who isn't activated?

When there is an injury - do you call up a guy who has been with the team the entire time (Trevor Robinson) or do you get a guy who has been eating potato chips on his couch for half a year (Faine)?

This is why we are losing.

WR

Tate and Binns start. While Sanu, Jones, and Whalen should have been the ones that had seen playing time. Tate since the losing streak began - has all of THREE catches. Over 5 games - 3 catches.

Yet this guy STARTS for this team! Not to mention the muffed punts. But the coaches use him as an essential cog on this team. Why? Is it ego? Is a position coach or coordinator not willing to admit his mistake? Is whoever picked him up from New England unwilling to admit they were wrong?

This guy starts for this team. And he has all of 3 catches. Whalen in the first game he was activated LED the team in receptions. Against the Steelers.

Binns and Tate should head to the inactive. I would preferably like to see them on the PS or cut - but I don't think the coaches are that smart.

Center

Robinson over Faine. Forever. From now on. I would even play a healthy Robinson over a gimpy Cook. You can't do your job if you aren't 100% and Cook's injury is serious. Robinson all the way.

RB

Peerman FINALLY got some carries. FINALLY! After he had 8 catches for 78 yards one game - he didn't see the field until BJGE had a malfunction with his helmet. On that one and only play he was in on offense that game - he scored a Touchdown. And runs a perfect punt fake another game. And busts his butt on STs every game. Use this guy! The game he had 8 catches - Gruden would have him run out from I Form to line up as a WR. And it worked! Why not have a RB that can have that extra dimension to game plan?

LB

How in the world was Lamur on PS all year when we lost our best coverage LB? Only because Moch got migraines again did we call him up. He would be languishing on the PS because the LB coach is too dumb to see who is good and who isn't.

There are other positions - Safety and CB - that the coaches aren't starting the best guys. But these are the mains ones. It only took more than half the season for the coaches to finally wise up.

We have the talent. Just they don't play. On top of that, I shudder to think the coaching and training from this crack team. Or even how players are used - for god's sake stop using Gresham to block! But at least we can get the best players out on the field!
well said and right on , these coaches are stupid to play some of the players they start week in and week out.enough said. how can we get it changed, is my question????
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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Winston Zeddemore: We have the tools, and we have the talent.
Dr. Peter Venkman: It's Miller time
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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we so need a running back. why in crap did they draft boom herron from ohio state if they will not play the guy??? what a wasted draft pick if you are not going to play the dude.the law firm is NOT GETTING IT DONE.so far he is a bust.he just cannot break tackles. cid benson was better than this guy.come on, man. we so need a running back.i just know there is one out there to help. thats what is going to be the downfall of this team as it has been up to now, and this coaching staff 9 games in still has not addressed this big big problem.watch the stoolers tonight. they will get at least 100 yards for their backs. its sickening to watch this team try to run the ball and just go no where.stupid really.
No doubt our lack of desire to try and improve the running game is the must frustrating aspect of this season. I was sure they would do SOMETHING when B.Scott went down. Unfortunately the trade deadline is gone, so if we look to upgrade now we gotta get someone of the streets or call up a kid from ours or someone's PS.

You know it's bad when you got a WR lined up in the backfield on a 3rd and 2; at least he got the 1st down, not sure Ben woulda.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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No doubt our lack of desire to try and improve the running game is the must frustrating aspect of this season. I was sure they would do SOMETHING when B.Scott went down. Unfortunately the trade deadline is gone, so if we look to upgrade now we gotta get someone of the streets or call up a kid from ours or someone's PS.

You know it's bad when you got a WR lined up in the backfield on a 3rd and 2; at least he got the 1st down, not sure Ben woulda.
So true. Just like our lacking talent at safety, we have guys from other positions coming over to play better than our original starters this year.

Those two positions need to be addressed; no doubt about it.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

While I don't think we should start rookies wholesale for no reason, I do think we are WAY too hesitant to get the kids out there playing.

Remember, Marvin himself admitted to this after the 2010 season. He improved in 2011 but this year is back to his "play the vet even if the kid is better" mentality. And this has gone on for years - remember how Pat Sims finally got on the field? It took John Thornton (class act) basically going to the coaches and telling them flat out they should bench him and play Sims because Sims was ready.

Let's be real here - how blind do you have to be not to see that Sanu is better at WR than Brandon Tate? Sanu's physical traits and his college record both point directly at him as the complement to Green we need out there. Tate on the other hand has a BAD track record as a receiver. Tom Brady lost faith in him and you could tell Dalton did too - not surprising with the butterfingers, bad route running and failing to go over the middle and fight for the ball.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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While I don't think we should start rookies wholesale for no reason, I do think we are WAY too hesitant to get the kids out there playing.

Remember, Marvin himself admitted to this after the 2010 season. He improved in 2011 but this year is back to his "play the vet even if the kid is better" mentality. And this has gone on for years - remember how Pat Sims finally got on the field? It took John Thornton (class act) basically going to the coaches and telling them flat out they should bench him and play Sims because Sims was ready.

Let's be real here - how blind do you have to be not to see that Sanu is better at WR than Brandon Tate? Sanu's physical traits and his college record both point directly at him as the complement to Green we need out there. Tate on the other hand has a BAD track record as a receiver. Tom Brady lost faith in him and you could tell Dalton did too - not surprising with the butterfingers, bad route running and failing to go over the middle and fight for the ball.
Joelist, you wrote something like this a week ago. You were wrong then as you are wrong now.

IMO, you don't have a realistic accessment of how much ML in fact IS playing rookie & 2nd year players.

There are 10 rookies on this team. Of the 10, Zeitler, Robinson, & Burfict are starters. Dre Kirk has been struggling with injury issues but is now starting to get snaps. 2 others get regular snaps (Charles & Still). And Sanu has gotten some snaps as well.

Besides your annoyance with Marvin Jones (injured in opening kickoff against Steelers), who of the other 2 rookies are you annoyed with their playing time? George Iloka or Brandon Thompson.

Binns isn't a rookie, but he has gotten regular snaps as well.

There are seven 2nd year players. 4 get regular snaps (Dalton, Green, Boling, Hawkins). Moch just got back from suspension last week and now is back on IR.

Are you annoyed that Vincent Rey isn't getting enough snaps?

Ryan Whalen hasn't been activated this year too often this year. There is some substantiation for annoyance about this. But Whalen doesn't play STs. The other young activated WRs do.

Last edited by mulligan; 11-12-2012 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:28 PM
EyeOfTheTiger EyeOfTheTiger is offline
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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Yes, it is still the talent.

There are a few things that you don't take into consideration:

1. We are 8 games into the season. I really don't think that you want to trust a rookie with NO games under his belt as the #2 WR. Sanu is seeing more time, as was Marvin Jones before he got hurt. Why? Probably because they were finally ready to play. You can't just throw a rookie into the mix until the player is ready. I don't think you would find too many coaches that would have thrown Jones or Sanu on the field until they were ready.

2. Trevor Robinson? Come on. Again, are you going to throw an undrafted rookie into the mix with zero experience? Why is he playing now? Because he is ready.

3. Lamur? He's looking pretty good, but just wait until teams have some film on him. Then they might take a look at exposing him.

You make some compelling arguments, but a lot of them fall short when you are calling for late round picks and undrafted rookies to just jump into the lineup with no game experience. Moves like that don't make much sense.
1) Whalen played in absolutely ZERO games. He wasn't even activated. His first game activated and he LED the team in receptions. Whether he got up to speed that quickly or Tate/Binns were just flat out horrible, he did it his first game back. He didn't get any game reps. He didn't even travel with the team. This just blows whatever argument you have out of the water.

2) Yeah, again ready my post. I would rather start a guy that has been with me since Day 1 rather than a guy who was eating potato chips on his couch for 6 months. That choice is easy.

I don't care where they are drafted or if they aren't drafted. I don't care if they are 5'2" or 7'0". I don't care if they have a 5.0 40 time. If the guy is your best player - you play him. Period.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

moch is on Reserve/non football related illness ending his season... RB is the weakest position on our team imo i like peerman but not as a workhorse type back but i do think the guy deserves more touches he provides more of a chance to break one and is way more explosive than the other backs
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:48 PM
Ryan Mc Ryan Mc is offline
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

I agree, I think the issues are mostly coaching and only slightly talent. We are not blessed with the greatest talent ever ... we have holes on the roster, for sure... but we have enough talent to have won 10 games this season. RB is the only position I can see where we are clearly subpar talent-wise.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:47 PM
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bengals Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

glad to see Cedric Peerman get a couple of series, all other teams in the NFL do this, dont know why it has taken us so long to implement this!

more Ced and more specific plays for Brian Leonard would go a long way in helping the running game
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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moch is on Reserve/non football related illness ending his season... RB is the weakest position on our team imo i like peerman but not as a workhorse type back but i do think the guy deserves more touches he provides more of a chance to break one and is way more explosive than the other backs
Absolutely. I watched BJGE try to run wide and fail. He has no speed!

Glad for the win, but I am so ****** off that the coaches haven't had these guys playing like that in every game. There is no, repeat NO excuse, for how this team has performed in the previous 4 games and how they played the Giants.

It had better continue for the rest of the season or there will be empty seats horizon to horizon at PBS!!!.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

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Joelist, you wrote something like this a week ago. You were wrong then as you are wrong now.

IMO, you don't have a realistic accessment of how much ML in fact IS playing rookie & 2nd year players.

There are 10 rookies on this team. Of the 10, Zeitler, Robinson, & Burfict are starters. Dre Kirk has been struggling with injury issues but is now starting to get snaps. 2 others get regular snaps (Charles & Still). And Sanu has gotten some snaps as well.

Besides your annoyance with Marvin Jones (injured in opening kickoff against Steelers), who of the other 2 rookies are you annoyed with their playing time? George Iloka or Brandon Thompson.

Binns isn't a rookie, but he has gotten regular snaps as well.

There are seven 2nd year players. 4 get regular snaps (Dalton, Green, Boling, Hawkins). Moch just got back from suspension last week and now is back on IR.

Are you annoyed that Vincent Rey isn't getting enough snaps?

Ryan Whalen hasn't been activated this year too often this year. There is some substantiation for annoyance about this. But Whalen doesn't play STs. The other young activated WRs do.
Actually I am completely correct.

Of the players you listed, Burflict and Robinson are only playing because everyone else is injured. Binns is actually another example along with Tate of underperforming veterans getting the snaps. so is the revolving door at safety and so is RB. Remember, I NEVER said that we should always plays the kids. But when the vets are not performing up to standards then the kids should be playing. And playing underperforming vets is a Marvin hallmark.

Going on, Charles gets only an occasional snap here and there. Really as soon as Gresham started his avoiding contact bit Charles should have been given more and more of his snaps to send a message - NFL TEs do not shy away from being hit.

At LB, most teams would have benched Rey several weeks ago. We left him in there at MLB with catastrophic results and chose to play Burflict out of position instead. The correct response would have been to put Burflict in the middle and Lamur and Lawson on the sides. At Safety find out what Iloka can do. At RB if BJGE can't do it let Herron try.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: Anyone think we still don't have the talent?

I have to agree with some of the other posts here. I also feel that for some strange reason, this organization will start the vet, or the higher paid player, over a younger/less paid player who is CLEARLY better!

My hunch is that Mikey probably demands that Giggles & Co. start the highest paid players, regardless of talent. I feel he is more concerned with getting his money's worth rather than putting the best team on the field.

Why else would ANY team do this???
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