Trading Back & Getting Depth

[Jasonew6]

Originally Posted by mulligan

Draft a DE in the 1st and a SS in the 2nd. In my opinion, a starting Strong Safety is our biggest need. I don't care how we fill it. We just need to fill it with a rookie that can succeed.

As for the Kicker, I want a kicker that can kick a 60 yarder and can ALWAYS get a touchback on a kickoff. Nugent can't do either of these. I don't know if this kicker can do those things, but I think we should draft one that can. We save about $2 million per year by not having Nugent as well.

Nuge was a touchback machine at OSU, and consistently hit 50+ yarders. That does not always translate to the NFL, and Nuge is a solid kicker and known quantity.

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by mulligan

How are the Bengals going to fill 4 needs (RB, Jarvis Jones, additional starting LB, & SS) with just two picks in the first two rounds? Trading up for Jarvis Jones will cost a 2nd rounder.

In my view, you need to add WR2 & DE to early draft needs. See below.

In my view, you can subtract one "starting calibre" LB; I am cool with Howard/Burfict/Maualuga as the starters providing the Bengals draft 2 LBs for competition & depth.

At WR, Sanu, Hawkins, & Whalen are arguably all slot WRs. We don't have a WR2 at all. We need one. The Bengals probably aren't going to keep Brandon Tate or Armon Binns next year. Marvin Jones MAY continue to evolve and be a legit WR2. But, he hasn't seen all that much time on the field and he has already gotten knicked up. IMO, WR2 is a big need. If AJ Green were to get injured, our WR corp would be PATHETIC!

At DE, our group seemingly takes weeks off between having good games. The dline produced next-to-no pass rush against the Browns, the Dolphins, and the Steelers. None against the Ravens either. Good pass rush against the Giants.

Dunlap has been consistant in his injuries. Without Dunlap, MJ seems to be nullified by the opponent's top pass protector.

And Moch?!? Moch has been placed on IR for 2 consecutive years due to migraines. I wouldn't count on Moch at all.

I don't count on Moch being productive, but I do count on him being on the roster.

The #2 WR argument is valid. I was a proponent of using our #1 on a WR to play across from AJ. However, Sanu looks like he can fill that void. IF (and that's a HUGE IF), he plays the way he played against NY for the rest of the year, then I don't see the Bengals drafting a WR in the first 2 rounds unless one drops.

With the way this team does business, I really think we will go into the draft without any glaring needs. Now, that doesn't mean we are going to have great starters at every position, but I would guess that we will sign mid level guys in areas of need just like last year when we picked up Wharton and the corners. We did it the year before with Howard and Lawson.

We need to use free agency for the "depth positions" instead of trying to move back and pick up extra picks to fill 2nd and 3rd string positions. That strategy allows you to take the BPA in every round.

[Stewee28]

LB
SS
RB

I believe those are our biggest needs and I put them in the order we should draft.

Two or three weeks ago, this board was calling for Reys head. He is horrible. I pray the front office does not resign him (if they do, it needs to be cheap and made clear he will be a back up). Honestly, I believe Rey will walk if he knows he will be a back up. I dont care if he has a great rest of the year or not. He is the football version of Drew Stubbs....come crunch time when your *** is on the hotseat, you turn it on and save yourself and when your name comes off the hot seat, you fall back into the same old **** as before. Rey is hurting this defense. LB has to be addressed with Te'o or Ogeltree. If Te'o is gone by the time our 1st pick comes, we trade back and pick Ogeltree (the trade back would hopefully warrant another 2nd rounder).

Sign a SS or a RB with the Oakland pick we have. I base this selection on Mr. Joseph Randle. He is the best RB in this draft this year. Maybe go Randle with the 2A pick and Vaccarro or McDonald with the 2B. pick (maybe even Rambo with the 2C pick later).

If we pick up another 2nd rounder, then I would address the DE, Dion Jordan if he is there or maybe another OLB. Gerald Hodges, Rasheed Greene from Rutgers or Sean Porter from A & M.

If Te'o is there.......

1. - Manti Te'o
2A. - Joseph Randle
2B. - TJ McDonald or Kenny Vaccarro

If Te'o is not there......trade back

1. - Alec Ogeltree
2A. - Joseph Randle
2B. - TJ McDonald / Kenny Vaccarro / Dion Jordan
2C. - Rambo (if we have not selected a SS) / Gerald Hodges / Rasheed Greene / Sean Porter

Honestly, either one is fine with me. I actaully like the Trade back option. Especially if we have a great second half of the season. If we finish with a .500 record (which I dont, but who knows with this team) then we need to trade back. If we **** it up and pick between the 7-12 range, then we need to stick with our original pick, unless everyone on our board is gone!

Mulligan - can you please explain to me what "WTS" means? I keep reading your posts and I cannot figure it out hahahaha

[Hammerstripes]

I will throw 1 big caveat into my "I don't want to trade back" attitude.

If we are drafting in the 12-18 range, I wouldn't be opposed to it as it seems that there are a lot of guys that will have similar grades between 10 and 40. It seems like this draft is very top heavy. That being said, I wouldn't mind trading down, but I would think it would be difficult to move down unless there is a huge need for some team to switch spots with us.

[goalpost]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

If we are drafting in the 12-18 range, I wouldn't be opposed to it as it seems that there are a lot of guys that will have similar grades between 10 and 40. It seems like this draft is very top heavy.

A DE is likely to be there between 12 -18. Some LB choices also. Could be some CB choices also. But that's likely what we'd pick from. Between 12-18, looks like T's, G's, and WR's will be there but I can't see those being the 1st pick unless Barrett Jones is that pick. I agree though that, in general, there is plenty of depth later down the draft, in the 2nd round in particular.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Jasonew6

Nuge was a touchback machine at OSU, and consistently hit 50+ yarders. That does not always translate to the NFL, and Nuge is a solid kicker and known quantity.

I can't find any detailed stats on Nugent at OSU.

http://www.databasefootball.com/play...kid=NUGENMIK01

In the pros, he is 5/13 from beyond 50 yards.

[BengalDawg]

I'm not understanding the boards obsession with Jarvis Jones. I say this because I am a huge UGA fan and he doesn't fit our system. He is a phenomenal pass rusher but not great in coverage. If he is there when we pick we should knock down Rodger Goodell's grandmother to get that pick to the podium but trading up to get a guy who doesn't really fit what we do seems suspect. He could add a lot to the pass rush but how often do we blitz OLBs? Todd Grantham (UGA's DC) runs a 3-4 where Jones plays standing up and almost always downhill. Jones is a better clay matthews. I'd much rather keep that pick and draft a Te'o or an Ogletree who is a much more natural fit to our system

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by BengalDawg

I'm not understanding the boards obsession with Jarvis Jones. I say this because I am a huge UGA fan and he doesn't fit our system. He is a phenomenal pass rusher but not great in coverage. If he is there when we pick we should knock down Rodger Goodell's grandmother to get that pick to the podium but trading up to get a guy who doesn't really fit what we do seems suspect. He could add a lot to the pass rush but how often do we blitz OLBs? Todd Grantham (UGA's DC) runs a 3-4 where Jones plays standing up and almost always downhill. Jones is a better clay matthews. I'd much rather keep that pick and draft a Te'o or an Ogletree who is a much more natural fit to our system

I guess it depends on why you don't think he fits our system. When Marvin had Peter Boulware back in Baltimore, he lined up at SAM. I think we would use Jarvis in the same way.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

I guess it depends on why you don't think he fits our system. When Marvin had Peter Boulware back in Baltimore, he lined up at SAM. I think we would use Jarvis in the same way.

Or David Pollack.
Or what we tried with MJ.
Or what we tried with Moch.

Marvin has never stopped looking for his "Boulware" here.
And I dont think we blitz because we dont really have anyone that good at it.

[OchoCincos]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

Or David Pollack.
Or what we tried with MJ.
Or what we tried with Moch.

Marvin has never stopped looking for his "Boulware" here.
And I dont think we blitz because we dont really have anyone that good at it.

Yep. It's a big reason we experimented with MJ, and what we hoped to get out of Moch. That's why I see different people wanting different styles of linebackers for our SAM. Some (like myself) see a player like Chase Thomas or Jarvis Jones as our style of SAM, as that seems to be what Marvin has wanted. Others want one whose best attribute is covering the TE, which is a more traditional style of SAM. Neither approach is wrong, but rather personal preference.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by OchoCincos

Yep. It's a big reason we experimented with MJ, and what we hoped to get out of Moch. That's why I see different people wanting different styles of linebackers for our SAM. Some (like myself) see a player like Chase Thomas or Jarvis Jones as our style of SAM, as that seems to be what Marvin has wanted. Others want one whose best attribute is covering the TE, which is a more traditional style of SAM. Neither approach is wrong, but rather personal preference.

Yep. Id rather get a SAM who can rush and set the edge, obviously being somewhat competent in coverage is also preferred leave the TE to the other LB or S.

[BengalDawg]

Don't get me wrong adding Jarvis Jones would be a huge upgrade over anyone currently on our D. He would be IMHO our best defensive player, but for what we would have to give up to get him I'm just not sure we could get there he will go top 5 easily. Also he is injury prone. Im not talking about the neck that caused his transfer from USC to UGA, but his hammys have caused him problems since he showed up on campus. I love this kid and like I said before if he is there when we pick there should be no hesitation, but he won't be and I'm not sure its worth 2 or even 3 picks to move that far up to get him

also great point about pollack, moch, and MJ

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

Or David Pollack.
Or what we tried with MJ.
Or what we tried with Moch.

Marvin has never stopped looking for his "Boulware" here.
And I dont think we blitz because we dont really have anyone that good at it.

I really think Pollack would have been a great player here. It's unfortunate that the way the surgeons treated his neck pretty much erased the chance of a comeback.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

Or David Pollack.
Or what we tried with MJ.
Or what we tried with Moch.

Marvin has never stopped looking for his "Boulware" here.
And I dont think we blitz because we dont really have anyone that good at it.

Originally Posted by OchoCincos

Yep. It's a big reason we experimented with MJ, and what we hoped to get out of Moch. That's why I see different people wanting different styles of linebackers for our SAM. Some (like myself) see a player like Chase Thomas or Jarvis Jones as our style of SAM, as that seems to be what Marvin has wanted. Others want one whose best attribute is covering the TE, which is a more traditional style of SAM. Neither approach is wrong, but rather personal preference.

I feel that this is a mischaracterization of what ML has been attempting to accomplish.

Since ML's arrival, our LB corp and our dline has stunk for the most part.

He drafted Pollack & Thurman in the same year, and both were "lost" the next year. Dhani Jones (a re-tread) walked on and became the starting MIKE for years. Rivers was a terrible consolation prize when the Bengals missed getting another player. Maualuga. Now, Thomas Howard & Manny Lawson walk in and get starting roles in 2011. Repeat. Then Burfict UDFA and Lemur UDFA get significant snaps. These UDFA aren't awesome. Our LB corp has just been that poor.

If one of these LBs would have worked out, then ML wouldn't have had to keep drafting LBs.

Repeat in 2013.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

I really think Pollack would have been a great player here. It's unfortunate that the way the surgeons treated his neck pretty much erased the chance of a comeback.

Surgeons?

You think that Pollack's NFL career was ended by the approach of the surgeons?

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by mulligan

Surgeons?

You think that Pollack's NFL career was ended by the approach of the surgeons?

Without question.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

Without question.

Without question?

HE BROKE HIS NECK!

WTS, how can you say that the surgeons approach was primary factor in ending Pollack's career?

What other NFL player BROKE THEIR NECK and came back?

[Burma]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

Yep. Id rather get a SAM who can rush and set the edge, obviously being somewhat competent in coverage is also preferred leave the TE to the other LB or S.

I am surprised you don't like Sean Porter more then. He has been very impressive in his transition fron pure pass rusher to a pass rusher who can also cover.

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by mulligan

Without question?

HE BROKE HIS NECK!

WTS, how can you say that the surgeons approach was primary factor in ending Pollack's career?

What other NFL player BROKE THEIR NECK and came back?

There are different ways to treat neck injuries. The surgeons decided to treat it one way and it completely limited his future options. The decision to fuse his neck made it impossible for him to come back.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

There are different ways to treat neck injuries. The surgeons decided to treat it one way and it completely limited his future options. The decision to fuse his neck made it impossible for him to come back.

David Pollack chose (wisely) to retire. Period.

Surgeons did not unilaterally fuse Pollack's neck. David Pollack was given options, and David Pollack chose how to proceed.

David Pollack chose to retire as opposed to exposing himself to potential paralysis from an on-the-field hit.

Faulting the surgeons (directly or indirectly) is laughable.

[psychdoctor]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Looking at our current starters, who would you try to upgrade?

AJ, Sanu, Jones, Whalen, Hawkins are a very good group. If Sanu plays the rest of the year like he did this past week, I would say that there is no need to draft a WR. That's a huge IF.

QB - no

TE - Gresham and Charles - no need to draft a guy here.

OL - Whitworth, Boling, Robinson/Cook, Zeitler, Andre. No need to draft one here either.

RB - BJGE, Leonard, Peerman. We need a RB.

On offense, you can make and argument that we really need to add only a RB.

On defense:

DE - Johnson, Dunlap. We need some depth here, but I would much rather see a late to middle round specialist added. Either a speed rusher (Moch may already fill this need) or a run stuffer (Still may fit this need).

DT - Peko, Sims, Thompson, Still. Very solid group.

CB - Hall, Dre, Jones, Ghee, Prater, Allen. Don't really see a need here either.

S - Definitely need to get a starter in the draft.

LB - Burfict is about the only guy that has shown he can be a complete starter. We need to add 2 starting caliber guys.

I really think we could be 2 guys away from being a pretty legit team. Give me one of the top 2 RBs in the draft and Jarvis Jones and we are almost there.

Throw in a 2nd round safety and there's not a ton of holes.

Impact players can be found later in the draft if the scouts know what they are doing. I think the Bengals will stay put and draft at slot position.

The team needs to upgrade C/G just in case Boling or Cook goes down and Wharton doesn't come back. Robinson is a keeper.

I agree with you that the team needs two backers and a safety. In fact a safety is probably the biggest need. Next would be a RB. They need to dump Scott, Leonard and get fast RB along with Hammer. the law firm has been merely adequate to poor but I like his attitude. Also I think Werner or an impact DE would really help the already strong D-Line. I am not a MJ fan. He is serviceable but an upgrade would be nice. An argument for a true #2 WR can be made but I think he is already on the team. Marvin Jones. Get rid of Tate and Binns.

In summary:
2 Backers
SS
C/G (Barrett Jones would be nice)
DE
WR late round gem.

That is six players with six picks. six players can really change the tipping point of the team. Of course Marvin needs to go because he cannot manage a game if his life depended on it.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by psychdoctor

Impact players can be found later in the draft if the scouts know what they are doing. I think the Bengals will stay put and draft at slot position.

The team needs to upgrade C/G just in case Boling or Cook goes down and Wharton doesn't come back. Robinson is a keeper.

I agree with you that the team needs two backers and a safety. In fact a safety is probably the biggest need. Next would be a RB. They need to dump Scott, Leonard and get fast RB along with Hammer. the law firm has been merely adequate to poor but I like his attitude. Also I think Werner or an impact DE would really help the already strong D-Line. I am not a MJ fan. He is serviceable but an upgrade would be nice. An argument for a true #2 WR can be made but I think he is already on the team. Marvin Jones. Get rid of Tate and Binns.

In summary:
2 Backers
SS
C/G (Barrett Jones would be nice)
DE
WR late round gem.

That is six players with six picks. six players can really change the tipping point of the team. Of course Marvin needs to go because he cannot manage a game if his life depended on it.

You state 7 positions of need. RB, 2 backers, SS, C/G, DE, WR.

How are you envisioning this working?

[psychdoctor]

Originally Posted by mulligan

You state 7 positions of need. RB, 2 backers, SS, C/G, DE, WR.

How are you envisioning this working?

they need a LB/DE hybrid

[OchoCincos]

Originally Posted by mulligan

I feel that this is a mischaracterization of what ML has been attempting to accomplish.

Since ML's arrival, our LB corp and our dline has stunk for the most part.

He drafted Pollack & Thurman in the same year, and both were "lost" the next year. Dhani Jones (a re-tread) walked on and became the starting MIKE for years. Rivers was a terrible consolation prize when the Bengals missed getting another player. Maualuga. Now, Thomas Howard & Manny Lawson walk in and get starting roles in 2011. Repeat. Then Burfict UDFA and Lemur UDFA get significant snaps. These UDFA aren't awesome. Our LB corp has just been that poor.

If one of these LBs would have worked out, then ML wouldn't have had to keep drafting LBs.

Repeat in 2013.

Agreed about Pollack and Thurman. If the injuries and off-field issues hadn't happened, then we'd probably still have them right now, or at least wouldn't have had such a constant turnaround at LB.

But that does not mean that berserker and I were incorrect about the style of SAM that Marvin wants. Pollack was a DE in college. Marvin wanted (and still seems to want) a SAM that can set the edge and rush on needed downs. Pair that with the fact that Zimmer likes to blitz, and it makes sense. Zimmer, unfortunately, has not had a SAM to work with that can stay healthy and be an effective pass rusher.

This is why I see Marvin wanting a player like Mingo or Thomas (or a FA like Barwin?) as viable options for SAM in our defensive scheme. Thomas isn't a DE, but is more of a style of SAM LB that Marvin has shown interest in the past. There are a lot of college DEs that are 250 lbs or under that I think Marvin thinks he could turn into our SAM/DE hybrid.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by OchoCincos

Agreed about Pollack and Thurman. If the injuries and off-field issues hadn't happened, then we'd probably still have them right now, or at least wouldn't have had such a constant turnaround at LB.

But that does not mean that berserker and I were incorrect about the style of SAM that Marvin wants. Pollack was a DE in college. Marvin wanted (and still seems to want) a SAM that can set the edge and rush on needed downs. Pair that with the fact that Zimmer likes to blitz, and it makes sense. Zimmer, unfortunately, has not had a SAM to work with that can stay healthy and be an effective pass rusher.

This is why I see Marvin wanting a player like Mingo or Thomas (or a FA like Barwin?) as viable options for SAM in our defensive scheme. Thomas isn't a DE, but is more of a style of SAM LB that Marvin has shown interest in the past. There are a lot of college DEs that are 250 lbs or under that I think Marvin thinks he could turn into our SAM/DE hybrid.

Georgia runs a 3 -4 defense. In a 3-4 defense, a DE is not a prototypical 4-3 defensive end. Significantly less weight.

In a 4-3 defense, aren't all SAMs designed to set the edge and rush on needed downs? I honestly don't know.