When Marvin wins, I see Marvin gets .....

[fortyyearfan]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

all any of us want is a super bowl win in the nati, i don't care if HOWDY DOODY coaches us. just win baby, just win.if marvin THINKS THIS TEAM WILL MAKE THE PLAYOFFS, then i will hold him to that.its starts with a beat down of the chiefs, and this game really worries me big time.why you ask ? because they have a legit running game and this defense cannot stop a good running game, so what does everyone think????

[THEBURG]

Originally Posted by fortyyearfan

all any of us want is a super bowl win in the nati, i don't care if HOWDY DOODY coaches us. just win baby, just win.if marvin THINKS THIS TEAM WILL MAKE THE PLAYOFFS, then i will hold him to that.its starts with a beat down of the chiefs, and this game really worries me big time.why you ask ? because they have a legit running game and this defense cannot stop a good running game, so what does everyone think????

Just win baby.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

When his team wins several big games instead of "a" big game Lewis may start getting some credit as a coach. He did win coach of the year the season we swept the AFC North after all ... not bad for a coach whose team lost their first playoff game at home.

My argument starts from last year. Look who received "most" of the credit and when we started losing from last year into this year look who received "most" of the blame.

When we won close games in 2009 and 2011, Marvin received little credit. We were called the Cardiac Cats in 2009 and others got credit in 2011 when we came from behind to win games. Yet if we lose a close game it's Marvins fault. If we win a close game it's Cadiac Cats or some other person gets the credit.

When Marvin won coach of the year. Members here laughed and scoffed. You would of thought that this was a Squealers board.

Some members here are hypocrites. They will say the media favors big market teams that is why players/coaches get awards because of the bias. To those hypocrites who scoffed at Marvin's award, what about the stupid media bias??? What about the media bias when Cam won the ROY award last year? Is Carolina a bigger market then Cincinnati??? NO

The problem isn't Marvin, the problem is someone else and that problem started in 1991. One of the first acts was to get rid of Sam Wyche.

Many here wanted the divas gone and although they would serve no purpose in 2012, outside of AJ do you like our WR's? Do you like our running game???

Becareful of what you ask for. You want Marvin fired, fine but you can end up with a merry go round of coaches aka, the Browns/Raiders.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by JohnHenry

First, no single game defines whether one is a good head coach or not  to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Second, how much blame or praise a head coach receives  or any manager for that matter  should be directly proportional to how much control he has, and how much cooperation the GM/Owner provides.
Unfortunately, Marvin Lewis has little of the former and almost none of the latter.
Therefore, comparing Marvin Lewis performance to others must be done with a discernible eye.

To my point  Here is a brief list of the obstacles Marvin Lewis has to overcome that most head coaches dont.

1. He doesnt get to select all of his assistant coaches.
2. He doesnt get to fire coaches at will.
3. He doesnt have the organizational advantages others have for attracting free agents.
4. The owner he works for typically spends less than other owners in free agency.
5. The Bengals are the only organization this far north with no indoor practice facility.
6. The organizations scouting staff is the smallest in the league.
7. The owners priority is not winning; its running the business his way  the examples are many.
8. etc., etc., etc.

In short  Mike Brown is the common losing thread and its difficult to fairly judge a head coaches job performance given the disadvantage Mike Brown presents.

Think of it this way  By equal measure, Marvin Lewis should have been fired years ago.
Unfortunately, given the current owner, equal measure is not justified.
Nope the full blame for the organizations failures over the last twenty years should go to Mike Brown and Mike Brown alone.

Marvin Lewis is just another offering soon to be sacrificed at the altar of Mike Brown's narcissism.

Rinse... Repeat.

I agree with almost all of what you're saying, but I don't think Marv is completely free of blame. Also, we can hope for a new head coach. We will NEVER have a new owner. I think people get tired of constantly blaming Mike Brown because they know the Brown family will always own the Bengals.

[Dabo614]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

And other's get credit. Yet when the Bengals lose this forum is flooded with Marvin needs to be fired. And other's get a pass or excuses.

Really? After all these years you still support garbage juice lewis? When this team wins, they win inspite of him,,,thats how bad he is. But usually (as the years have pointed out) they cant win consitently because of him.

[Dabo614]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

This is 100% true. Members will crawl out of the crevices to protect the player they love when he has a bad day and put the blame on Marvin. Case in point they will ask Marvin to have to win a playoff game. But the last time any Bengal coach or player won a playoff game it was in 1991.


More evidence? In 2009 when we were winning games in the 4th quarter and known as the Cardiac Cats did Marvin get the credit? No.
In 2011 when we were winning games in the 4th quarter was Marvin getting the credit? No.

This year when the Bengals lose the close games or games they were suppose to win, does Marvin get the blame? Yes.




Once upon a time if you did not kiss the feet of Carson Palmer, Carson's Calvary would get you.



Now we have a new era, a new "protected" player. If we lose it is not his fault, but if we win.








I expect the new Calvary to come charging any minute now.

We won games in 09 because we had a stout D and because carson and co managed to pull some rabbits our their arses in the 4th quarter several times,,,we should have never been in those situations if it werent for poor coaching. This is why i cant stand people like you,,,cause people like you only help to keep this team sucky like it is, cause you think one of the worst coaches in the NFL is somehow good.

[Dabo614]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Keep in mind when you say "ol .500", our QB happens to be .....".ol .500".

W-L
9-8
4-5
____
13-13

Seriously?

Where the eff do you peeps come from?

What do you expect a sophomore QB to do with a terrible HC,,no number 2 WR,,crap run game,,poor pass protection,,,and a shaky/streaky defense?

Has he made mistakes that were all on him,,,,YES.

But to sit here and claim dalton is average after what i just stated (which is fact) is plain stupid.

Give him at least a decent run game,,,little more time to throw the ball,,and a viable threat at WR other than AJ,,,coupled with an improved defense and you people will be screaming for him to go to the pro bowl.

[Dabo614]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

This has nothing to do about dragging Andy into "it". What this has to do is a double standard. You mention the lack of a running game, yet we did not have a good running game last week either, yet we won. So that excuse is moot. We beat the World Champions without a running game.

All I am saying is that Andy and Marvin or "tied to the hip", you can't separate them. When one does well, the other should be equally credited or blamed. If Andy was a lights out QB and our defense stunk then we could separate Andy and Marvin. As of right now they should get equal billing.

"we beat the world champions without a running game"

and the chances of us winning in the playoffs or a SB are almost zero with no running game.

You forget we played a giants team that his terrible in the secondary and is notorious for being streaky (but at least they do it when it counts,,,TWO SBs) Not gonna see that here

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Dabo614

We won games in 09 because we had a stout D and because carson and co managed to pull some rabbits our their arses in the 4th quarter several times,,,we should have never been in those situations if it werent for poor coaching. This is why i cant stand people like you,,,cause people like you only help to keep this team sucky like it is, cause you think one of the worst coaches in the NFL is somehow good.

This why people like you will never learn. The issue is not Marvin it is his boss.

You want to give Carson and others the credit but Marvin the blame when we lose. C'mon man.

The issue is not whether Marvin is good or not but with dodo birds giving other's passes while crucifying Marvin is stupid.
You say give the sophmore better tools and he will be better. Duh, that works both ways. You specify give the sophmore better WR's? Well what are the WR's? Are they seasoned veterans? Why do you give a pass to the QB, but not the WR's? That is the double standard garbage I explained earlier. Blame the running game, WR's, OL, shaky defense, but don't even think about criticizing ...



Yes, blame all but don't even think badly about Ginger Jesus.

Folks this member is exactly what I stated earlier once upon a time if you did not kiss the feet of Carson. The roaches would come out of the cupboard to protect Carson.
These days there is a new "protected" one. Notice how this member criticized everyone except AJ and the "protected" one. He gave a pass to Andy as only a Sophmore, completely throwing the ROOKIE WR's for example under the bus. Did you notice that?

Instead of being consistent and place Dalton in the same category with all the players vs. Marvin. He places certain players on a pedestal. Last year he would say, Andy is only a fresman, but he won't give our rookie WR's the same treatment.

Keep in mind dodo bird, I have never criticized Dalton. You can do a search all you want and you wil not see me talk bad about him. I have talked bad about Marvin before as well as the owner.

However, I will not put Dalton on a pedastal. Last year and I repeat last year Cam was the better QB. This year all I am pointing out is he should get equal treatment in 2012 as his coach, good or bad. And I am talking solely about 2012!!!!!

If I was not a Bengals fan, I would laugh and say fire Marvin and suffer with the next bunch of clowns that Mike Brown hires over the next 15-20 years. However, I am a Bengals fan since 1974 and I know that since 1991, Marvin has been the best coach from a list of losers like you who have paraded into town.

[Ron Mexico]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Keep in mind when you say "ol .500", our QB happens to be .....".ol .500".

W-L
9-8
4-5
____
13-13

Second year QB that had no offseason work prior to his rookie year with a rookie OC, and an almost no recievers other that his rookie star, and pulling it together this year with a rather sub-par offense. Yeah,...he deserves a little credit.

Lewis on the other hand, is halfway through his 10th season, and it would take him winning out and then winning 4 playoff games to inch above .500. He's been mediocre, and it isn't each game that bothers me, it's his overall body of work.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Fair enough post, all good points. However, a couple of things I would say in reply. Generally, there are reasons to argue that Lewis is not a good game-day/strategic coach (without getting into details here) ... clearly this has nothing to do with ownership. Also, as far as picking his own assistant coaches goes, there's no evidence that Lewis is actually good at this. He hand-picked Leslie Frazier as his first DC, then fired the guy after two years (some evidence against your point that he can't fire coaches at will) to be replaced by Chuck Bresnahan. This was an absolutely terrible decision which set our D back for three years before we fired Bresnahan and brought Zimmer in to clean up. Lewis has also been through three different LB coaches after hand-picking his first guy in Rickey Hunley.

Your points about the obstacles a Bengals head coach faces are completely valid, but I still feel a better coach could produce better than Lewis in the same environment. It doesn't have to be one or the other ... we can agree that Brown is a lousy owner and say that Lewis is a subpar coach at the same time.

Yes, absolutely, and a huge part of what makes MB a lousy owner is his history with HCs. Marvin is the best one he's had, but he's been mediocre for too long to not get axed if MB truly had winning at the top of his list of priorities.

[JohnHenry]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Fair enough post, all good points. However, a couple of things I would say in reply. Generally, there are reasons to argue that Lewis is not a good game-day/strategic coach (without getting into details here) ... clearly this has nothing to do with ownership. Also, as far as picking his own assistant coaches goes, there's no evidence that Lewis is actually good at this. He hand-picked Leslie Frazier as his first DC, then fired the guy after two years (some evidence against your point that he can't fire coaches at will) to be replaced by Chuck Bresnahan. This was an absolutely terrible decision which set our D back for three years before we fired Bresnahan and brought Zimmer in to clean up. Lewis has also been through three different LB coaches after hand-picking his first guy in Rickey Hunley.

Your points about the obstacles a Bengals head coach faces are completely valid, but I still feel a better coach could produce better than Lewis in the same environment. It doesn't have to be one or the other ... we can agree that Brown is a lousy owner and say that Lewis is a subpar coach at the same time.

I respect and understand your points but let me offer you this…

My post wasn’t meant to weigh in on the good coach, bad coach debate.
The purpose was to point out that it’s not reasonable to judge Marvin Lewis’ performance based on the same criteria used to judge others.
He lives by a very different set of rules here that affect all he does.

To my point - I think it’s very important to point out, or to place emphasis on, Mike Brown’s failed business model and the resulting ripple effect.
When evaluating decisions Marvin has made, or any Bengals coach for that matter, we understand that we can’t simply pluck those decisions out of space and time and scrutinized them as if they occurred in a vacuum.
Organizational realities such as a small player/personnel department, less free-agency money, a small coaching budget, lack of draft-day creativity, lack of a competent GM,
and other constraining policies permeate through the entire organization and influence all operational decisions.
In short, the decisions Marvin makes here may not be the same decisions he would make if operating under a different set of circumstances.

You mention coaches – First, Marvin Lewis did not have the luxury of hiring his own staff. This is not opinion; it’s fact.
Sure, through the course of a decade, in light of the teams’ record and for PR sake, particular coaches must be replaced.
Yet the dynamic of how those changes occur are not Marvins doing.

Specifically, Mike Brown adheres to a couple of policies regarding coaches that are detrimental to the success on the field.
First, he won’t fire coaches with time remaining on their contract.
Second, his coaching budget is more than likely less than most.
Third, personal loyalty trumps performance – the examples are many.

So, it’s clear, Marvin can’t fire coaches at will. He’s limited by contract status, or budgetary reasons, or loyalty concerns.

Further, how these specific policies ripple through the organization and effect staffing decisions are only limited by ones imagination.
But the exercise truly helps illustrate my broader point - I’ll offer up one example.

It’s very possible that Marvin wanted to fire Bresnahan one year earlier, but was unable because he still had time on his contract.
This one policy has a ripple effect.
For example, Marvin may have had to pass up hiring a DC he really wanted that was available because he had no open positions.

In short, one failed policy begets the next bad decision or missed opportunity, and so on.

Also, you summed up your post by writing “we can agree that Brown is a lousy owner and say that Lewis is a subpar coach at the same time.”
My post can be summed up by writing; regarding the former the evidence is clear, regarding the latter the jury’s still out.
There is clear, verifiable evidence to show that at least in Baltimore Marvin Lewis did a great job and is regarded as a very good coach.
Ray Lewis credits him with every opportunity and Brian Billick is never short of praise.
Mike Brown on the other hand has no such record.

I hear many say “Mike Brown doesn’t suit up on Sunday”, but this is the epitome of shortsightedness.
The fact that “Mike Brown doesn’t suit-up on Sunday” says nothing about the strait-jacket he places on those that do, particularly coaches.

One other thing – Tom Coughlin won two Super-Bowls in New York. Could he have done the same here operating under these set of circumstances?
I say not a snowballs chance.

So, as a Bengals fan… Good luck to the blind squirrel – it’s really all we got.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

And other's get credit. Yet when the Bengals lose this forum is flooded with Marvin needs to be fired. And other's get a pass or excuses.

Marvin Stinks and he always will

Get used to it

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Storm

Marvin Stinks and he always will

Get used to it

I could not choose which one to use.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

And other's get credit. Yet when the Bengals lose this forum is flooded with Marvin needs to be fired. And other's get a pass or excuses.

[SunsetBengal]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

and notice...no Marvin threads recently.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by SunsetBengal

and notice...no Marvin threads recently.

Exactly!!!!

Where are the Marvin Haters???

[Ron Mexico]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Exactly!!!!

Where are the Marvin Haters???

Right here. It's long past the time for the man to move on. I think the Bengals could be much better without him, and his silly decisions in almost every aspect of the game have proven that he'll never be anything more than a mediocre (at best) coach.

Yeah, he deserves a bit of credit from helping bring the Bengals back from a 3-5 record, but they may have not even had that 3-5 record if it wasn't for him. Marvin Lewis is a .500 coach that can't win big games. The dude can hit the bricks.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Johnny Cupcakes

Right here. It's long past the time for the man to move on. I think the Bengals could be much better without him, and his silly decisions in almost every aspect of the game have proven that he'll never be anything more than a mediocre (at best) coach.

Yeah, he deserves a bit of credit from helping bring the Bengals back from a 3-5 record, but they may have not even had that 3-5 record if it wasn't for him. Marvin Lewis is a .500 coach that can't win big games. The dude can hit the bricks.

Some people are not satisfied whatever you do. We are on our way to the Superbowl and some fans are still not happy.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Exactly!!!!

Where are the Marvin Haters???

Your original observation was correct, when we lose Lewis gets heat and when we win others get credit. However, you still haven't convinced me that there is anything wrong with this.

The last few weeks IMO simply prove that we are a talented team, that there is enough talent on this roster to have won 8 or 9 games to this point in the season. Certainly talented enough to have won 2 or 3 games from a 4-game stretch against Miami, Cleveland, Pitt and Denver (3 of those games at home) instead of going 0-4. Of course, I'm happy that we've won the last three games, but I still don't think any of those wins unfolded in ways that prove anything other than our roster is way more talented than KC or Oakland's and that NY Giants are simply a highly inconsistent team that had one of their off days against us. I still judge us to be 2 or 3 wins below where a roster of our talent should be this season, and I still put that on coaching.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Exactly!!!!

Where are the Marvin Haters???

Heres one for you


Why did it take so long for the Bengals to get it together?

Losses to Miami and Cleveland have really put the team in a hole, where was this team during those games?

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Some people are not satisfied whatever you do. We are on our way to the Superbowl and some fans are still not happy.

If we even get to the championship game this season I'll certain back off and give Lewis more credit than I have. But ... can we wait for that to actually happen before we crown him a great coach?

[Bengals Mike]

Originally Posted by Storm

Heres one for you


Why did it take so long for the Bengals to get it together?

Losses to Miami and Cleveland have really put the team in a hole, where was this team during those games?

Cleveland is a moot point now that the Steelers lost to them, it's the Steelers game that has us on the outside as of now

[BoomerFan]

If you hang around long enough, maybe you eventually figure out how to win it all. Stability has a place in the world.

That said, we're still just at 6-5. If we don't get to 8-8 I will be calling to fire Marvin.

[mbburch]

Marvin needs to be fired.

We had a world-class football team before he came in here and screwed it all up.

And there are tons of A-list head coaches lining up to work for Mike Brown.

[/sarcasm]