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  #26  
Old 11-15-2012, 04:14 PM
Hammerstripes Hammerstripes is offline
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Because it evaluates players as individuals not as a cohesive unit.
We block well on the line. The grades reflect this.
We don't block well from the TE spot. We don't block well at WR. We don't have a RB who can turn the corner.

We lack talent at RB and it shows.
I still can't say that we block well on the line. The running game just doesn't show that.
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  #27  
Old 11-15-2012, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

Because it evaluates players as individuals not as a cohesive unit.
We block well on the line. The grades reflect this.
We don't block well from the TE spot. We don't block well at WR. We don't have a RB who can turn the corner.

We lack talent at RB and it shows



If they grade the line as blocking well, then there is a flaw in the grading system.

It doesn't stand the eyeball test. Additionally, it is hard to grade the run blocking of WRs when, as you also said, the RB's can't get out there to give the WR's an opportunity to block.

I agree there is a big issue with the RB's not being fast enough to get outside and turn the corner, I've mentioned that as well. But the o-line itself is not blocking well enough, and there always seem to be failings at the point of attack. This is another reason why the Bengals are ranked so low running to the left.


I agree the Bengals lack talent at RB, but think people take too much advantage of this and lean towards giving the o-line a pass sometimes.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Or his torn ACL.
You think the panthers cut him in 2012 because he had knee surgery in 2007 or whenever? You're just being silly.
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  #29  
Old 11-15-2012, 04:35 PM
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bengals Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Dude, stop the PFF nonsense. If they were legit, we'd have the greatest O-Line of all time. They have not both our guards rated as about the best in the league, they always rave about Whit at LT, yet somehow we can't run the ball for crap.
Agree 100%. If our O-Line is so tremendous, why are we averaging 3.something yards per attempt? Please don't tell me it's all on BJGE either.
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  #30  
Old 11-15-2012, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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I said it when I signed Wharton...he wasn't that good. He was a lower-tier starting Guard. Had he been healthy though, no way do the coaches play Boling.

Robinson had 1 decent game so far. Let's wait and see how he progresses.

We still cannot run the ball this year and Dalton has been sacked a lot.
The idea that ML would deliberately play an inferior player seems ludicrous to me.
Yet, somehow people keep saying this argument.

So how is Vontaze Burfict starting at WILL when Skuta & Vincent Rey have more experience?

Is it because Burfict has more ability? If so, then ML puts a higher priority on ability than on experience/pay check?

What about Orson Charles getting starts over Richard Quinn?
What about Marvin Jones scheduled to get the snaps against the Steelers (prior to injury) over Brandon Tate?
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  #31  
Old 11-15-2012, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Agree 100%. If our O-Line is so tremendous, why are we averaging 3.something yards per attempt? Please don't tell me it's all on BJGE either.
What did Bernard Scott average against the Dolphins before getting injured? 8 yards per carry.
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  #32  
Old 11-15-2012, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?
No

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Originally Posted by ibengals View Post
Boling is currently the 4th best LG in football according to PFF
BS

The Bengals will not go into camp next year without changes to the line.
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  #33  
Old 11-15-2012, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Originally Posted by BengalRugby View Post
Because it evaluates players as individuals not as a cohesive unit.
We block well on the line. The grades reflect this.
We don't block well from the TE spot. We don't block well at WR. We don't have a RB who can turn the corner.

We lack talent at RB and it shows



If they grade the line as blocking well, then there is a flaw in the grading system.

It doesn't stand the eyeball test. Additionally, it is hard to grade the run blocking of WRs when, as you also said, the RB's can't get out there to give the WR's an opportunity to block.

I agree there is a big issue with the RB's not being fast enough to get outside and turn the corner, I've mentioned that as well. But the o-line itself is not blocking well enough, and there always seem to be failings at the point of attack. This is another reason why the Bengals are ranked so low running to the left.


I agree the Bengals lack talent at RB, but think people take too much advantage of this and lean towards giving the o-line a pass sometimes.
I think a big problem is still an issue at center.
We need to see what Cook does with Boling and Zeitler.
The running outside is all about the RB IMO. The inside struggles come from the C position.

We run so well to the right because we plugged two absolute maulers over there.
Boling has never been much of a run blocker because he is a "finesse" blocker who uses his technique to win over brute strength like Andre and Zeitler.
Give Boling a decent C to work with out there and the left side evens out. I want to see Boling pull more personally.
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  #34  
Old 11-16-2012, 02:34 AM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Originally Posted by berserkerone88 View Post
Because it evaluates players as individuals not as a cohesive unit.
We block well on the line. The grades reflect this.
We don't block well from the TE spot. We don't block well at WR. We don't have a RB who can turn the corner.

We lack talent at RB and it shows.
You know who was blocking well at WR last year? Jerome Simpson. I never thought I would say this, but I miss him. He was definitely better than Binns/Tate.
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  #35  
Old 11-16-2012, 03:13 AM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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What did Bernard Scott average against the Dolphins before getting injured? 8 yards per carry.
Lets keep it real though. Scott had a 29 yarder in that game. His other 7 carries this season went for 6 yards (0.9 per carry). If you combine the stats of Scott, Peerman and Leonard, they haven't done so well outside of the 29 yarder by Scott and the 48 yarder by Peerman on the fake punt. Just 107 yards on 33 carries (3.2 per). So it's not just Law Firm having trouble this year.
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  #36  
Old 11-16-2012, 06:04 AM
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bengals Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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I never want to say this, as it sounds terrible to say an injury was a good thing, but do you think we've improved after these injuries?

Boling is currently the 4th best LG in football according to PFF, and he's improved immensely since last season when he played a couple of games at RG. Do you really think he would have gotten a fair shot at the position had Wharton not gotten hurt? Wharton is on a 3-year contract, so I'm guessing it'd be 2014-2015 before Boling even got a chance. We'd have one of the top performing guards in the NFL sitting on the bench while Wharton went down hill. (Not making predictions, he's getting older, it's likely it'd happen)

Robinson has been playing decent as well. I'll not argue that we're better off with Robinson, because that's a lie, but Robinson just might be something to look at in the future. As much as I miss Kyle Cook; he's an average center when he's here.

I guess my point is, we could be going into 2013-2014 with not only a younger offensive line, but a group of guys that are potentially better anyways. I think the offensive line will only get better as they go, and the future is looking good for this bunch.
I think that it has shown that the FO and the staff are doing a good job in building this team for longevity. If Wharton and Cook both comeback 100% for 2013 then we are going to be in pretty darn good shape on the oline.

To have either Cook or Robinson coming off the bench and either Wharton or Boling coming off the bench will be a very nice luxury. I think they are doing a nice job of building with youth.

In this position it would appear the interior line heading out of 2012 could be a big strength whereas heading into 2012 it was seen as a glaring weakness.
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  #37  
Old 11-16-2012, 07:03 AM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

I think a big problem is still an issue at center.
We need to see what Cook does with Boling and Zeitler.
The running outside is all about the RB IMO. The inside struggles come from the C position.

We run so well to the right because we plugged two absolute maulers over there.
Boling has never been much of a run blocker because he is a "finesse" blocker who uses his technique to win over brute strength like Andre and Zeitler.
Give Boling a decent C to work with out there and the left side evens out. I want to see Boling pull more personally.



I believe that as well, until Robinson shows he man up week in and week out. Though one stellar game against the Giants makes one wonder if Cook will be able to retake his position if Robinson keeps this level up.

I mentioned Cook needing to come back ASAP so we can see how he works with the current guards before the season ends. That way we know if center is a need or not. But if Robinson keeps playing well, I say let Cook ride the pine and we can have them duke it out in the off season. If he keeps playing well, as he's only on a streak of 1 in a row.

I mention running to the left since it has been abysmal, and if the blocking was good, then it wouldn't be an issue. 25th and 31st I believe are the rankings on Football Outsiders. I agree the back has a lot to do with it, but a dominant o-line, like the Bengals had for several years around 2005, makes any back look good. Hence, if this line were good, then any back would look okay behind them.

But no one does, except the change of pace guys, which again circles back to questioning the blocking on a regular basis.


I like Boling and he seems to be solid blocking, and would likely be good pulling. I just don't buy the entire line being above average blocking, as they cannot run against bad defenses.
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  #38  
Old 11-16-2012, 07:23 AM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

Think it is a blessing in disguise in the long run. But in the short haul it was very taxing.
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  #39  
Old 11-16-2012, 08:05 AM
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bengals Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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You think the panthers cut him in 2012 because he had knee surgery in 2007 or whenever? You're just being silly.
From what I have read he was a cap casualty. I have seen nothing but good stated about him by members of the Panthers and the Panther staff.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:07 AM
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bengals Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
The idea that ML would deliberately play an inferior player seems ludicrous to me.
Yet, somehow people keep saying this argument.

So how is Vontaze Burfict starting at WILL when Skuta & Vincent Rey have more experience?

Is it because Burfict has more ability? If so, then ML puts a higher priority on ability than on experience/pay check?

What about Orson Charles getting starts over Richard Quinn?
What about Marvin Jones scheduled to get the snaps against the Steelers (prior to injury) over Brandon Tate?
This will always be stated by those that feel they know the personnel better than the coaching staff does. Dunlap is a perfect example. The constant screaming for him to start over Geathers while completely ignoring consistency.
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  #41  
Old 11-16-2012, 10:05 AM
Hammerstripes Hammerstripes is offline
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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The idea that ML would deliberately play an inferior player seems ludicrous to me.
Yet, somehow people keep saying this argument.

So how is Vontaze Burfict starting at WILL when Skuta & Vincent Rey have more experience?

Is it because Burfict has more ability? If so, then ML puts a higher priority on ability than on experience/pay check?

What about Orson Charles getting starts over Richard Quinn?
What about Marvin Jones scheduled to get the snaps against the Steelers (prior to injury) over Brandon Tate?
I don't think that Wharton is an inferior player - at least not when it comes to run blocking. Marvin wants to run the ball. I would have bet my house that Wharton would have started, in fact, didn't he start all of the pre-season games before his injury? That's a pretty telling sign.
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  #42  
Old 11-16-2012, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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I don't think that Wharton is an inferior player - at least not when it comes to run blocking. Marvin wants to run the ball. I would have bet my house that Wharton would have started, in fact, didn't he start all of the pre-season games before his injury? That's a pretty telling sign.
He got injured on the third play of our first preseason game.
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  #43  
Old 11-16-2012, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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He got injured on the third play of our first preseason game.
Which he started.
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  #44  
Old 11-16-2012, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Agree 100%. If our O-Line is so tremendous, why are we averaging 3.something yards per attempt? Please don't tell me it's all on BJGE either.
It's not ALL on BJGE, but most of it is. The guy can't make his own holes, he just runs downhill. He's the second worst running back in the league right now, and it's showing.

He averaged 3.7 ypc with the Patriots last year; are you going to argue that their line ****** too? He had every advantage he could possibly have in NE to produce (great passing team, good offensive line)
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  #45  
Old 11-16-2012, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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It's not ALL on BJGE, but most of it is. The guy can't make his own holes, he just runs downhill. He's the second worst running back in the league right now, and it's showing.

He averaged 3.7 ypc with the Patriots last year; are you going to argue that their line ****** too? He had every advantage he could possibly have in NE to produce (great passing team, good offensive line)
I agree on BJGE, and that makes it hard to figure out how well our O line is doing.

If we had a RB, who could hit the hole and get to the outside, then we would know if the O line produced, or not. As it is, the O line can make a hole and it closes before the RB gets near it, or other teams pinch and that makes it harder to run up the middle, and our RB doesn't have the speed to get to the outside.

Wharton going down was a good thing. Boling has improved and is now a solid LG.
I think Robinson is the future at OC. Remember he is a rookie, and is starting the hardest spot to learn on the O line in the NFL.
If he continues to play like last week, the the future at OC is Robinson, and Cook just became Wally Pipp.

That would make our O line a very good O line.
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  #46  
Old 11-16-2012, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Lets keep it real though. Scott had a 29 yarder in that game. His other 7 carries this season went for 6 yards (0.9 per carry). If you combine the stats of Scott, Peerman and Leonard, they haven't done so well outside of the 29 yarder by Scott and the 48 yarder by Peerman on the fake punt. Just 107 yards on 33 carries (3.2 per). So it's not just Law Firm having trouble this year.
Take away Peerman run on the punt and his stats are still good.If Peerman can not run to the outside with a 4.3 40 as fast as DB is then nobody can run to the outside till the college guys start running sub 4.2 40.Peerman can run between the tackles some but he has the speed to run outside.We just do not use the guy.
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  #47  
Old 11-16-2012, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Take away Peerman run on the punt and his stats are still good.If Peerman can not run to the outside with a 4.3 40 as fast as DB is then nobody can run to the outside till the college guys start running sub 4.2 40.Peerman can run between the tackles some but he has the speed to run outside.We just do not use the guy.

That is a great question. I would like to hear Marvin Lewis and Jay Gruden respond to that one.
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

If Robinson can make the improvment from his rookie year to his second year that Boling made then we will look pretty good at center and guard spots for the future.The grades do not match the stats .We should be getting enough push to get more yards our guys are not knocking guys off the ball and driving them upfield like they should.When you run the ball you want your o-line to be like dozers pushing guys back opening holes.
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  #49  
Old 11-16-2012, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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If Robinson can make the improvment from his rookie year to his second year that Boling made then we will look pretty good at center and guard spots for the future.The grades do not match the stats .We should be getting enough push to get more yards our guys are not knocking guys off the ball and driving them upfield like they should.When you run the ball you want your o-line to be like dozers pushing guys back opening holes.

Well, as much as we all like Trevor Robinson, and want to see him develop into something special. I'm afraid that he will more than have his hands full this week, as he is facing Donatari Poe. Poe is a #346 behemoth at NT. I would not look for a lot of rushing yards in this game, as KC's front 7 is one of the toughest out there. The key will be protecting Andy to build a lead, then go to the run in the 2nd half.
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Was losing Cook and Wharton a blessing in disguise?

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Take away Peerman run on the punt and his stats are still good.If Peerman can not run to the outside with a 4.3 40 as fast as DB is then nobody can run to the outside till the college guys start running sub 4.2 40.Peerman can run between the tackles some but he has the speed to run outside.We just do not use the guy.
Agreed. We definitely need to use Peerman and run to the outside more. No reason not to. Law Firm ain't getting it done by himself.
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