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  #51  
Old 11-19-2012, 07:54 PM
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bengals Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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Originally Posted by The Caped Crusader View Post
Been a while since I have went back to this series of mine, mainly letting the weeks pass by in hopes of finding some new numbers. Again, I am doing this because Cam Newton won Rookie of the Year, something Dalton was up for. Newton received all the recognition that Dalton did not get, but most importantly, these two were HIGH on the lists for suspects of Sophomore Slumps...So where are we now?






Cam Newton (2-8)

Season Stats: 171/300 (57%) 2,395 PYARDS 9 TDS 10 INTS 79 RTG 40.4 QBR 4 RTDS 5 FMBL
AVG Pass Defense Rank: 19




Andy Dalton (5-5)

Season Stats: 221/344 (64.2%) 2,559 PYARDS 20 TDS 11 INTS 92.7 RTG 57.5 QBR 2 RTDS 2 FMBL
AVG Pass Defense Rank: 17.6




Fascinating.
Those who know football know who the better QB is and really do not need the stats laid out to confirm it.

Cam is a star because in most cases it is a popularity contest. It was pre-ordained when the NCAA let him walk off untouched after everyone with sense knew he was available to the highest bidder.

Andy was a leader from day 1 and I am not sure if "Swag" will ever achieve being one because he is all about himself and personal accolades. The one gift he does not have is the one that is arguably the most important.
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  #52  
Old 11-19-2012, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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Every week I see things from Dalton that show me his improvement is ongoing. Cam has already hit his ceiling. He'll take about the same career path as Vick. Dalton is more likely to have a career similar to Pennington (When he was healthy) or Trent Green. He could find himself on a level comparable to the elite if he gets the supporting cast he needs. Ultimately, that means a top flight RB that suits the west coast offense, and a running mate for Green (who we may already have in Sanu/Jones).

If our next draft produces Manti Te'o, a starting RB and a Safety, I'll be stoked and I think Dalton will benefit greatly from it.
Same as Vick? S he's gonna have a pro bowl career? Ok good. Idk when ppl say running QBs don't make it then cite Vick. Vick has made it......he has had a successful career...he's not the guy to use as an example
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  #53  
Old 11-20-2012, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

All that shows is that Pro Bowl selection processes are badly flawed. Vick should have never been anywhere close to a Pro Bowl but they overvalue "wow" and undervalue actually playing the position at a high level.

He had a single year (2010) where he actually seemed to understand how to play QB in the NFL and has always been a fountain of turnovers - something the Eagles have found out the hard way the last couple of seasons.
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  #54  
Old 11-20-2012, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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All that shows is that Pro Bowl selection processes are badly flawed. Vick should have never been anywhere close to a Pro Bowl but they overvalue "wow" and undervalue actually playing the position at a high level.

He had a single year (2010) where he actually seemed to understand how to play QB in the NFL and has always been a fountain of turnovers - something the Eagles have found out the hard way the last couple of seasons.
Or it could be that Vick is a good QB that has alway racked up a decent amount of wins his whole career. That whole he can't throw crap went out the window to me a while ago. Vick can throw....can run...he's just made of glass. I don't want him in the pro bowl these days because I'm scard he'd probably get injured in that thang. What WOW has he really showed us the past 3 years? I don't think you can use that for Vick. He's become a better QB and his stats show that. But he's getting old and ragged and his games played show that
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:24 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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He carried Cleveland on his back to the NBA finals. You know what happened the next year when he left? They won 20 games. Yes, Lebron would have a championship sooner or later if Wade and Bosh werent on his team.

I cant stand listening to people try to talk about the NBA when they dont even watch the games or have no idea whats going on in the league.
The Cavs didn't make the finals the year before James left. Maybe you should fact check before you call out somebody for not having any idea about the goings-on of the NBA.

I'll never have respect for James leaving the Cavs to form a super team in Miami. Guys like Jordan, Bird and Kobe stayed with their teams. Jordan didn't win a title in Chicago for his first 6 seasons. You didn't see him leaving to sign with the Lakers or Pistons.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:08 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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Or it could be that Vick is a good QB that has alway racked up a decent amount of wins his whole career. That whole he can't throw crap went out the window to me a while ago. Vick can throw....can run...he's just made of glass. I don't want him in the pro bowl these days because I'm scard he'd probably get injured in that thang. What WOW has he really showed us the past 3 years? I don't think you can use that for Vick. He's become a better QB and his stats show that. But he's getting old and ragged and his games played show that
Sorry Housh, Vick is NOT a good QB. His accuracy has never been good his whole career and he has had a career long problem with turnovers (both INTs and fumbles). The only year he was better was 2010 and that was more about the league having forgotten how to defend him - as evidenced by his being King Turnover this year and last year.

The reality is that he got to the Pro Bowl on the basis of "wow" plays - mostly running plays. His career PASSING numbers are below average. While it may have been his criminal issues that ultimately finally convinced Arthur blank Vick had to leave Atlanta, the reality is he should have been gone before the criminal problems. Look at the giant difference in that team with a legitimate PASSING QB. Matt Ryan is so much better than Vick it isn't funny.
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  #57  
Old 11-20-2012, 04:59 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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Sorry Housh, Vick is NOT a good QB. His accuracy has never been good his whole career and he has had a career long problem with turnovers (both INTs and fumbles). The only year he was better was 2010 and that was more about the league having forgotten how to defend him - as evidenced by his being King Turnover this year and last year.

The reality is that he got to the Pro Bowl on the basis of "wow" plays - mostly running plays. His career PASSING numbers are below average. While it may have been his criminal issues that ultimately finally convinced Arthur blank Vick had to leave Atlanta, the reality is he should have been gone before the criminal problems. Look at the giant difference in that team with a legitimate PASSING QB. Matt Ryan is so much better than Vick it isn't funny.
I don't think Vick has ever been a great passer, but he's had his moments. He's definitely always had a good/great arm and contrary to what you're saying, he has not been a turnover machine (not til now anyways). Vick has never thrown more than 14 ints in a season and his career int % of 2.8 is solid.

He has usually fumbled more than the average QB, but that's to be expected considering he has rushed for 5500 yards in his career (most ever by a Qb). If you want an accurate representation of what Vick meant to the Falcons, you should look at the year he broke his leg in the preseason. The Falcons were an absolute joke without him.

To compare him to Matt Ryan and the current Falcons team is unfair considering that it's a completely rebuilt team. Roddy White has emerged as a premier WR. Julio Jones, Tony Gonzalez and Michael Turner never played with Vick. Plus the defense is much better. The Eagles are just a mess this year. Even when Vick plays decent, the Eagles lose.

Not saying Vick is great or anything, but in his prime he was a difference maker for sure.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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The Cavs didn't make the finals the year before James left. Maybe you should fact check before you call out somebody for not having any idea about the goings-on of the NBA.

I'll never have respect for James leaving the Cavs to form a super team in Miami. Guys like Jordan, Bird and Kobe stayed with their teams. Jordan didn't win a title in Chicago for his first 6 seasons. You didn't see him leaving to sign with the Lakers or Pistons.
Jordan could afford to wait since Chicago actually put pieces around him. The Cavs meanwhile got... Mo Williams
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  #59  
Old 11-20-2012, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

It's official..........

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Old 11-20-2012, 10:12 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

I agree with most of what's been said in this thread, but I think people should be prepared for Dalton's stats to dip a little by season's end. San Diego, Steelers, and Ravens could all be very frustrating games (though hopefully he learns from them -- especially the divisional games) and Oakland, Dallas, and Phillie are by no means gimme games. But the person who said he is a professional was right. As long as Dalton doesn't lose his cool, I'm willing to endure a rough end to this season and see what he can do in year 3. When I think of pieces the Bengals are missing, QB isn't one of those (though I do hope he keeps working on his deep ball...too many overthrows to Green this year).
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  #61  
Old 11-20-2012, 10:25 AM
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Jordan could afford to wait since Chicago actually put pieces around him. The Cavs meanwhile got... Mo Williams
Hey don't forget Delonte West!
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:26 AM
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I agree with most of what's been said in this thread, but I think people should be prepared for Dalton's stats to dip a little by season's end. San Diego, Steelers, and Ravens could all be very frustrating games (though hopefully he learns from them -- especially the divisional games) and Oakland, Dallas, and Phillie are by no means gimme games. But the person who said he is a professional was right. As long as Dalton doesn't lose his cool, I'm willing to endure a rough end to this season and see what he can do in year 3. When I think of pieces the Bengals are missing, QB isn't one of those (though I do hope he keeps working on his deep ball...too many overthrows to Green this year).
Why are you automatically assuming he'll have a rough end to the season? He's just now hitting his stride...
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:18 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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I agree with most of what's been said in this thread, but I think people should be prepared for Dalton's stats to dip a little by season's end. San Diego, Steelers, and Ravens could all be very frustrating games (though hopefully he learns from them -- especially the divisional games) and Oakland, Dallas, and Phillie are by no means gimme games. But the person who said he is a professional was right. As long as Dalton doesn't lose his cool, I'm willing to endure a rough end to this season and see what he can do in year 3. When I think of pieces the Bengals are missing, QB isn't one of those (though I do hope he keeps working on his deep ball...too many overthrows to Green this year).
You may be correct, but Ravens are not a power house on defense in 2012. They lost Lewis and Webb. Jimmy Smith just had a surgery and who know if he is back by week 17 or if he is do they rest him. Reed has shown signs of wear and tear so can he hold up. There is a longw way to go before we play the Ravens so who knows if they suffer any more injuries. Who knows if they are playing for anything in week 17? I don't see them getting the number one seed so hopefully they have clinched the division and are not playing for a one or two seed. If so, they are resting people I bet.
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  #64  
Old 11-20-2012, 11:40 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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You may be correct, but Ravens are not a power house on defense in 2012. They lost Lewis and Webb. Jimmy Smith just had a surgery and who know if he is back by week 17 or if he is do they rest him. Reed has shown signs of wear and tear so can he hold up. There is a longw way to go before we play the Ravens so who knows if they suffer any more injuries. Who knows if they are playing for anything in week 17? I don't see them getting the number one seed so hopefully they have clinched the division and are not playing for a one or two seed. If so, they are resting people I bet.
Steelers took it to them with a backup and only lost by 3......

And Ed Reed is suspeneded next game. I can see the ravens dropping a few soon. (need to look at their schedule.)
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

For those who are picking on Andy for having a struggling year need to look back at the stats:





-2011-

(16 Games) = 300/516(58.1%) 3,398 (Yards) 20 (TDS) 13 (INTS) 45.8 (QBR) 80.4 (RTG) 6.5 (AVG)


-2012-

(11 Games) = 221/344(64.2%) 2,559 (Yards) 20 (TDS) 11 (INTS) 57.5 (QBR) 92.7 (RTG) 7.4 (AVG)
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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Let's see how Andy performs in San Diego. That's will be the next remotely decent team we play. And playing them on the road will make it tougher.

I don't think he's slumped. Most of the INTs were not his fault.
Pretty sure Andy has a better road record than home record (which is downright odd in football). They're fairly close though. I think this year they are 3-2 on the road and 2-3 at home.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

Dalton is 14-6 against the league if you exclude PIT and BAL too. We need to find a way to beat those two teams. Even going .500 against them we'd be a lock for a playoff spot.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:55 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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For those who are picking on Andy for having a struggling year need to look back at the stats:





-2011-

(16 Games) = 300/516(58.1%) 3,398 (Yards) 20 (TDS) 13 (INTS) 45.8 (QBR) 80.4 (RTG) 6.5 (AVG)


-2012-

(11 Games) = 221/344(64.2%) 2,559 (Yards) 20 (TDS) 11 (INTS) 57.5 (QBR) 92.7 (RTG) 7.4 (AVG)
The proof is in the stats. If the stats aren't enough, just take it from Marv: "Andy has improved his play this season, and that's what you want to see".

Btw, for anyone still bringing up his ints like it's a major problem, 14 QBs have now thrown at least 10 picks this year. Among those players are:

Matt Ryan
Eli Manning
Matt Stafford
Carson Palmer
Cam Newton
Andrew Luck
Tony Romo
Jay Cutler
Philip Rivers

Among these 14 QBs, only Matt Ryan has a higher passer rating than Andy Dalton (94.8 to 92.7).
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

As somewhat of a follow on to "Stuck with Andy Dalton", Boo,erFam is expressing the sentiment of the arguement presented in the mentioned thread.

Fans of the Cincinnati Bengals are now waiting for Year 3 of quarterback Andy Dalton's development (which I state will not happen). Development is defined by winning and my opinion states that in 2013, the Cincinnati Bengal season outcome will be 6-10. No improvemnt over 2012.

Again, the Cincinnati Bengals are stuck with quarterback Andy Dalton.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:30 PM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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As somewhat of a follow on to "Stuck with Andy Dalton", Boo,erFam is expressing the sentiment of the arguement presented in the mentioned thread.

Fans of the Cincinnati Bengals are now waiting for Year 3 of quarterback Andy Dalton's development (which I state will not happen). Development is defined by winning and my opinion states that in 2013, the Cincinnati Bengal season outcome will be 6-10. No improvemnt over 2012.

Again, the Cincinnati Bengals are stuck with quarterback Andy Dalton.
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  #71  
Old 11-21-2012, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

I'm happy with Andy, but Cam's going to win rings if they ever build a team around him. The Panthers did a terrible job in the 2012 draft. They had a chance to get Cam some weapons, and they blew it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:33 PM
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bengals Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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I'm happy with Andy, but Cam's going to win rings if they ever build a team around him. The Panthers did a terrible job in the 2012 draft. They had a chance to get Cam some weapons, and they blew it.
If I was a betting man I would bet Andy wins more than Cam does in the NFL. Andy is a winner and Cam is all about Cam.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: Sophomore Slump: Dalton vs Newton (Part 4)

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I'm happy with Andy, but Cam's going to win rings if they ever build a team around him. The Panthers did a terrible job in the 2012 draft. They had a chance to get Cam some weapons, and they blew it.
Rings? I have $10000 on it that he NEVER wins even one ring. Cam was a one hit wonder. I will go on the record as saying that his rookie year will be the best year he ever has. He will be nothing more than an average quarterback.
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  #74  
Old 10-25-2013, 11:36 AM
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Default Dalton vs Newton: Round Three

I sat there, in my bed last night, trying to find something to watch on tv while falling asleep. With nothing on, I decided the simple solution was the easiest solution, ESPN! So, I settled, and was forced to watch the consistent, never ending, absolutely predictable 'analysis' of Cam Newton's SPECTACULAR PERFORMANCE. The numbers shown were efficient, surprising considering Newton has rarely been anything but in his career besides a few previous times. So, who did they face? A division rival!? Whew! A good one against the Falcons or Saints, I'm guessing. Right? No, the 0-7 Bucs. I lost it, and decided to put it to the test.


Newton is a physical specimen, and I will never shy away from admitting that. He is capable of freakish things most men only dream they could do. That being said, the man is over hyped on a technical level, and after analyzing the EVEN simple statistics of him against Andy Dalton, I found myself further puzzled. Please read, as follows:



Stastical Averages Head-To-Head


Dalton:

Current season (2013): 66% 1,924 yards 11 TD 6 INT 93.9 (5-2)
Avg Pass D Faced: 17.2
Combined Record of Teams Faced: 25-22

Career: 61.3% 8,991 yards 58 TD 35 INT 85.8 RTG (24-15)



Newton:

Current season (2013): 64.9% 1552 yards 12 TD 5 INT 97.6 (4-3)
Avg Pass D Faced: 18th
Combined Record of Teams Faced: 17-32

Career: 59.9% 9,472 yards 52 TD 34 INT 84.5 RTG (17-32)



Okay, if you read this and come to the conclusion, "Well, honestly, I don't see your point, there is not a big difference between the two Quarterbacks." Then you have entirely made my point. Dalton, however, is the more efficient WINNER. Sure, most in defense of Newton will reach for his rushing touchdowns, but when it comes to a Quarterback, frankly, I don't care. You can run all you want on the field (insert Michael Vick) but if you don't come up with the efficiency, and plays to win, then it doesn't matter (Michael Vick).


Thoughts?
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Newton: Round Three

Two very different QBs, but because one can throw a ball miles and can run, he's deemed to be better... plus he's a #1 overall pick so he has to be better right?

I can remember the preseason game we played against Carolina in both of their rookie years. Andy pretty much outplayed Cam. Not a huge indication on anything since it was preseason, but I remember thinking then 'our guy has just had the better of the supposed best played in the draft... maybe he's not that bad'.

As your stats point out, they're basically producing at the same level, but Andy has had a bit more around him the past year and a bit. I personally fail to see how either is clearly better than the other guy tbh. Newton is a much better runner for sure, but in terms of their ability to throw the ball... they produce the same results moreorless.

The difference is, Cam is a #1 overall and capable of something flashy every now and again. Andy's been called a 'game manager', so is deemed a boring yet functional QB. The fact Cam is seen as miles better than Andy, is basically a really good example of style over substance.

Cam almost certainly gets an edge on music taste though.... Bieber, Andy? Really?
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