Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

[bfine32]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Bump for the Oakland game.

Shoulda bumped this one:

http://boards.bengals.com/showthread...sted+victories

[Millz]

Carson was quite excellent for a time there, then he became quite mediocre a few years ago. This is the quick version on how I feel about it.

[savagehenry54]

Man, we better just beat the tar outta the Raiders regardless of how anyone feels about Palmer. Even if you think he's good, like I do, that is a bad bad Raiders team and we should stomp the ever loving krap out of them if we have any right to think this team belongs in the playoffs.

Personally, I'd like to think that our pass game and DLine are good enough to get us to the playoffs, then maybe you get hot, who knows right? But with the hole we're in, we absolutely must make statements and build confidence and swagger in games like this.

WE SHOULD.....get out to an early lead and then start pummeling and intercepting Palmer from there and win by at least 17 or more. If we don't, I'll be disappointed.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Man, we better just beat the tar outta the Raiders regardless of how anyone feels about Palmer. Even if you think he's good, like I do, that is a bad bad Raiders team and we should stomp the ever loving krap out of them if we have any right to think this team belongs in the playoffs.

Personally, I'd like to think that our pass game and DLine are good enough to get us to the playoffs, then maybe you get hot, who knows right? But with the hole we're in, we absolutely must make statements and build confidence and swagger in games like this.

WE SHOULD.....get out to an early lead and then start pummeling and intercepting Palmer from there and win by at least 17 or more. If we don't, I'll be disappointed.

I know you've always been a fan and defender of Carson. I haven't ... I thought he was pretty bad here his last two years (yes, even 2009. I thought he was lucky to get away with a number of bad throws that season ... something that came back to bite in 2010). However, to be fair to your side of the argument, Greg Cossell was on ESPN radio in the morning last week, talking about QBs in the league based on his film study. When asked which QB was having a good season which nobody was noticing, without hesitation he said Carson, saying he's on a terrible Raiders team that isn't winning many games and doesn't have the greatest receiving talent around him, but is doing his part and playing pretty good football when you watch in detail on tape.

Now, if I could just find that thread where somebody (I forget who) bet people (including me) that Carson would throw 30+ TDs, 4000+ yards and 10 or fewer INTs this season!

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by The Scales

I know excellence.

Carson Palmer was not NFL excellence.

So how could one waste that which never was?


2005 had veteran multiple pro bowl caliber players on the line and

Chad Johnson
Rudi Johsnson
Chris Perry doing work I believe to some extent.
T.J. Hoosh
Palmer
CHRIS HENRY

ALL IN THEIR PHYSICAL PRIME. Together. As a team.
Defense was mediocre but had a knack for the turnover.


Excellent Team.

Well, I don't know what to tell you if you didn't think that Palmer was excellent that year:

67.8% completion rate, 32 TDs and 12 ints and a rating of 101.


You obviously don't know excellence.

[Paul from Dayton]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Now, if I could just find that thread where somebody (I forget who) bet people (including me) that Carson would throw 30+ TDs, 4000+ yards and 10 or fewer INTs this season!

The 4000 yards I can see...30 plus TDs is a stretch...Carson throwing 10 or fewer picks?

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Now, if I could just find that thread where somebody (I forget who) bet people (including me) that Carson would throw 30+ TDs, 4000+ yards and 10 or fewer INTs this season!

That was me, and I said less than 20 ints, not 10. He's never thrown for less than 10ints in his career, so it would be beyond foolish for me to bet that.

Currently, he's on pace for 4800+ yards, 27tds, 17ints. So my prediction isn't too far off at the moment.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

That was me, and I said less than 20 ints, not 10. He's never thrown for less than 10ints in his career, so it would be beyond foolish for me to bet that.

Currently, he's on pace for 4800+ yards, 27tds, 17ints. So my prediction isn't too far off at the moment.

Thanks for replying. My bad on the INTs ... memory a little hazy! I just remember responding that it was 3 milestones Carson had never reached all in the same season before.

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Manning went 3-13 with the 29th scoring defense in '98 and 6-10 with the 31st scoring defense in '01. In his 11 other seasons the Colts scoring defense has ranked in the top half of the league 6 times including 5 times in the top 10.

He has compiled a passer rating of 100 or better in only 9 of his 67 career losses.

I find it amusing, but typical, that OSU never acknowledged this one.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Thanks for replying. My bad on the INTs ... memory a little hazy! I just remember responding that it was 3 milestones Carson had never reached all in the same season before.

You're right, he's never met all of those goals in one season. He started real slow with the TDs before the bye, but he's picking it up now. Sadly though, the int's are going up too. I think once Goodson and/or McFadden come back the Ints should go down though since teams won't be keying on the pass as much.

Hate him or love him though, he's the best thing the Raiders have going for them offensively(which isn't that much of a compliment seeing as how horrible the rest of the team is lol)

Anyway, I feel Carson would have continued his 05-06 performance had the line and the run game stayed relatively the same.
The worst happenings(outside of the Palmer knee injury) were, IMO:
-Losing Steinbach(not replaced with equal caliber while Palmer was here)
-Never replacing Rudi's performance
-Losing Willie(not replaced with equal caliber while Palmer was here, although Dre is good now)
-Chad becoming a diva
-Chris Henry dying(never really replaced)
-Losing Housh(never really replaced)

All those things played a huge role in the overall downward slide of the team, and Palmer as a result. The team rallied in 09 with a great defense, but failed again when faced with a tougher schedule and not so great D.

What I would like to see Sunday is obviously a Bengal victory, but I want to see Palmer have a good showing as well. Either way, it'll be interesting to see how things go down.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

Well, I don't know what to tell you if you didn't think that Palmer was excellent that year:

67.8% completion rate, 32 TDs and 12 ints and a rating of 101.


You obviously don't know excellence.

...and that was before all the sissy defenseless receiver crapola. Also, you could actually touch the QBs head and not get flagged. He was top 3 that season, no question.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

You're right, he's never met all of those goals in one season. He started real slow with the TDs before the bye, but he's picking it up now. Sadly though, the int's are going up too. I think once Goodson and/or McFadden come back the Ints should go down though since teams won't be keying on the pass as much.

Hate him or love him though, he's the best thing the Raiders have going for them offensively(which isn't that much of a compliment seeing as how horrible the rest of the team is lol)

Fair enough comment. I noted earlier (comment #54) that Greg Cossell mentioned after watching a lot of tape this year that he thought Carson was quietly putting together a very good year at QB for the Raiders.

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Anyway, I feel Carson would have continued his 05-06 performance had the line and the run game stayed relatively the same.
The worst happenings(outside of the Palmer knee injury) were, IMO:
-Losing Steinbach(not replaced with equal caliber while Palmer was here)
-Never replacing Rudi's performance
-Losing Willie(not replaced with equal caliber while Palmer was here, although Dre is good now)
-Chad becoming a diva
-Chris Henry dying(never really replaced)
-Losing Housh(never really replaced)

All those things played a huge role in the overall downward slide of the team, and Palmer as a result. The team rallied in 09 with a great defense, but failed again when faced with a tougher schedule and not so great D.

What I would like to see Sunday is obviously a Bengal victory, but I want to see Palmer have a good showing as well. Either way, it'll be interesting to see how things go down.

I do feel bad for Carson, because in his prime (unfortunately brief) he was one of the best QBs in the game and could have come away with one or two Superbowl rings playing on a team with a better D (which was most teams during the 2005-2007 period ... we really were terrible on D those days) The main criticism I have with Carson is that, if anything, his decision-making seemed to get worse as his career progressed, and as his skills declined a little and as some of the offensive talent fell off around him that's the one thing that should have improved and compensated.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Abspara

Would it be fair to deduce that it's a coaching problem then? Maybe that's why Carson decided to not come back, because he knew the coaching was crap? I bet Mikey Boy resigning Marvin was the final nail in the coffin.

Now we're starting to get it. Palmer would rather retire than to play for Marvin Lewis.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Fair enough comment. I noted earlier (comment #54) that Greg Cossell mentioned after watching a lot of tape this year that he thought Carson was quietly putting together a very good year at QB for the Raiders.



I do feel bad for Carson, because in his prime (unfortunately brief) he was one of the best QBs in the game and could have come away with one or two Superbowl rings playing on a team with a better D (which was most teams during the 2005-2007 period ... we really were terrible on D those days) The main criticism I have with Carson is that, if anything, his decision-making seemed to get worse as his career progressed, and as his skills declined a little and as some of the offensive talent fell off around him that's the one thing that should have improved and compensated.

First off I would have liked seeing Carson Palmer retire from the NFL as a Cincinnati Bengal. I think Palmer wanted to lead his team to the big show. I think he tried. I, myself got tired of watching Chad yelling at Palmer on the sidelines after Chad screwed up a play. Palmer might have got tired of a lot of things, we'll never know. " his decision-making seemed to get worse as his career progressed " Some time in life when things aren't going the way they shoud, you try a little harder. I think his decision- making lapses were due to trying to hard.

[khamla]

I wonder if Carson regrets moving out and just sitting pat. He would have made more money here also had a better winning team.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

I do feel bad for Carson, because in his prime (unfortunately brief) he was one of the best QBs in the game and could have come away with one or two Superbowl rings playing on a team with a better D (which was most teams during the 2005-2007 period ... we really were terrible on D those days) The main criticism I have with Carson is that, if anything, his decision-making seemed to get worse as his career progressed, and as his skills declined a little and as some of the offensive talent fell off around him that's the one thing that should have improved and compensated.

Honestly I think 2008 was the tipping point.
Chad turned into a media w h o r e, and wasn't focused on football.
The running game disappeared.
The Oline was in shambles.
Palmer got injured very early on, but before the injury he was getting hit at a record pace.

What I think contributed most to what people see as bad decision making is his lack of faith in the offensive line, and his receivers. Forcing passes to make diva receivers happy. Forcing passes so the defense wouldn't allow another score. Forcing passes since the run game(outside of 2009) was crap. We're seeing that this season in Oakland(no run game, horrible defense, average at best receivers).

All this simply means is that he's not elite. He can flash, and be elite for a game or two every now and then, but sustaining that isn't really gonna happen. Like most QBs, he needs a solid supporting cast, and unfortunately he hasn't had that since 2007. If given the right components: top 16 defense, decent receiving corp, decent line, and a good running game; a 90-95.0 passer rating isn't out of the question for him.

[yellowxdiscipline]

Joe From Flo

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

I know you've always been a fan and defender of Carson. I haven't ... I thought he was pretty bad here his last two years (yes, even 2009. I thought he was lucky to get away with a number of bad throws that season ... something that came back to bite in 2010). However, to be fair to your side of the argument, Greg Cossell was on ESPN radio in the morning last week, talking about QBs in the league based on his film study. When asked which QB was having a good season which nobody was noticing, without hesitation he said Carson, saying he's on a terrible Raiders team that isn't winning many games and doesn't have the greatest receiving talent around him, but is doing his part and playing pretty good football when you watch in detail on tape.

Now, if I could just find that thread where somebody (I forget who) bet people (including me) that Carson would throw 30+ TDs, 4000+ yards and 10 or fewer INTs this season!

A lot of QBs are better than ppl think. QBs are continually and illogically held to an entirely ridiculous standard.

How much sense does it make to keep thinking you can draft the next Aaron Rodgers when there are so few of them to go around. I just hate that "QB-centric" perspective.

The coaching and other pieces of the team are so much more important than they are given credit for but if you hold those parts of the equation accountable and assess the QB in more reasonable fashion based on the big picture then you're just a "fanboy".

I've probably said roughly one million times I wanted Dalton right where we picked him even if Palmer were still around. But no one remembers that, they're too stuck on the idea that I'm not one of the masses who immediately blame the QB when the team stinks. I want the QB held accountable too, I just don't call for their head immediately as soon as things don't go well.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

....The coaching and other pieces of the team are so much more important than they are given credit for but if you hold those parts of the equation accountable and assess the QB in more reasonable fashion based on the big picture then you're just a "fanboy"....

Fair enough. Alex Smith's complete career turnaround last year, after being written off as a bust numerous times, shows what can happen when you give a QB the right coaching and supporting cast (although it sounds like they might bench him for Kaepernick soon). I'm sure every QB would love to be like R-berger and play on a team whose D ranks top 5 every single year (seriously, the Steelers' D has only been outside of the top 5 ONE year Ben has been the QB ... and that was 2006 when they ranked 9th and Ben led the league in INTs and posted a losing 7-8 record as a starter. Does kinda make the point about how important D is to a QB's winning record ... 9th isn't even really that bad, but it was a lot harder for him to win that year)

[Original Bengal fan]

Anyone who thinks it is not possible for Carson to light us up is toooo emotional he will want to win this game in the worst way and has the ability, he can get hot and everyone has seen it that has followed the Bengals when he was here. Fred is right on. I wonder how good this team would be with him as QB Andy is more mobile it would be hard to say he throws a better ball than Carson and Carson has a better arm than Andy. You will never know what really happened. I do believe on some of those deep balls to AJ Carson would have made those throws for TDs that Andy under threw. But Andy has the ability to extend plays which would have been sacks with Carson. I will be at the game but although I am disappointed how he left I do not have the hate some have he was fun to watch at times when he was here. I do not think Gruden would be crying if he was his QB now.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by Original Bengal fan

Anyone who thinks it is not possible for Carson to light us up is toooo emotional he will want to win this game in the worst way and has the ability, he can get hot and everyone has seen it that has followed the Bengals when he was here. Fred is right on. I wonder how good this team would be with him as QB Andy is more mobile it would be hard to say he throws a better ball than Carson and Carson has a better arm than Andy. You will never know what really happened. I do believe on some of those deep balls to AJ Carson would have made those throws for TDs that Andy under threw. But Andy has the ability to extend plays which would have been sacks with Carson. I will be at the game but although I am disappointed how he left I do not have the hate some have he was fun to watch at times when he was here. I do not think Gruden would be crying if he was his QB now.

I have absolutely zero doubt Jay Gruden would not trade Andy for Carson. Not saying Carson is a bad QB, but Andy is playing better right now, fits the offense, and has nothing but upside. Carson has seen his best days.

[Original Bengal fan]

I did not say he would prefer Carson at this time just he would not cry about it. Do not underestimate carson's ability he is one of the best pure passers in the game has the tendency to panic when pressured. The beating he took sometimes was brutal because of line issues which Andy has not had to take I wonder the year he had the broken nose and elbow issues how Andy would have done especially as a rookie. Like I said most on this board are short sighted because of emotion and hate. I have followed the bengals since they started my father took me to the first game. I am a bengals fan first but there are reasons why Carson wanted out which no one on this board will ever know. I did not like his comment about Ohio State though, my point is he took a beating here and in my opinion gave his all and never blamed anyone else for the results. I respect not throwing people under the bus.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by Original Bengal fan

I did not say he would prefer Carson at this time just he would not cry about it. Do not underestimate carson's ability he is one of the best pure passers in the game has the tendency to panic when pressured. The beating he took sometimes was brutal because of line issues which Andy has not had to take I wonder the year he had the broken nose and elbow issues how Andy would have done especially as a rookie. Like I said most on this board are short sighted because of emotion and hate. I have followed the bengals since they started my father took me to the first game. I am a bengals fan first but there are reasons why Carson wanted out which no one on this board will ever know. I did not like his comment about Ohio State though, my point is he took a beating here and in my opinion gave his all and never blamed anyone else for the results. I respect not throwing people under the bus.

Right on. Sometimes I wonder how good Andy would be with a great #2 WR like T.J. Houshmandzadeh and a good RB like Rudi Johnson. Hate does not cloud my judgement at all with CP3. I was ready for Carson to go well before his trade demand. Carson was great back in the day, and I agree that he could light us up if he has plenty of time, but he never was an elite QB and he hasn't been a consistently good one for several years now.

[umkubas]

The most important outcome of the Oakland Raiders at Paul Brown Stadium would be the Cincinnati Bengal win.

Carson Palmer is an interesting sidebar to this game.

[Original Bengal fan]

I agree