Here's Carson

[The Caped Crusader]

Originally Posted by ibengals

Carson is having a way better season than he's getting credit for. His offensive line *****, he has no run game, and he's still playing relatively well.

On pace for: 4840 yards, 27 TDs, 16 INTs

No running back either. McFadden is made of glass.

[DennyG2]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Like I thought, you've got nothing. Just the same "blame bad teams records on the starting QB" nonsense.

Lulz at "in a QB driven league there is a reason the Raiders are 3-7"....Bw3hwhwaahahahah, oh man, it is to laugh.

So it's your contention that the Raiders putrid defense has squat to do with their record? It's your contention that the Raiders complete lack of a run game and therefore complete inability to run some clock to protect that awful defense has nothing to do with their record?

Palmer is "the reason" they're 3-7??? That's your statement??

Look, I admit that Palmer is not good enough to carry a bad team, what else do you want me to say? You, on the other hand, are trying to put it all on him or at least the vast majority of the blame on him, even though it's obvious to anyone being objective that the Raiders are just a bad team and that Palmer is really the best thing they have going for them.

For goodness sakes they've got a rookie HC who hired an OC that has actually been taken to task by ownership over his ridiculous decision to run a zone scheme that McFadden isn't any good in.

Wanna gloss over the coaching factor too? I'm sure you do, like most, you wanna keep it simple, blame the QB, call it a day, and pass that off as being a knowledgeable fan. So much so that you'll parrot the same cliches and flawed logic rather than even attempt to address the other issues I've pointed out.....You'll just blow all that off, no matter how credible or accurate as "babbling" cuz you've got nothing to counter it with.

While I do appreciate your undying love for carson Palmer, the fact is he is not very good and career wise mediocre at best, that is not disputable.

You forget that early in these games it is not like Palmer and the Raiders are even scoring then. His stats are full of garbage yards and you know that. Yesterday when it was still a game he had a pick 6 and a red zone int, against a porus saints defense, that is terrible. Finally, Palmer is the leader of a 3-7 team, no matter how you slice it, it is bad.

I think even a Palmer homer like yourself and I can both agree to thank him for allowing us to get Andy Dalton, who, by the way is much better than Palmer, and AJ green. Lets say it together, shall we...

THANK YOU CARSON!!!!


Who-Dey!

[claws not hands]

Now it sounds like you don't watch the games. The pick 6 was terrible. The redzone interception was a perfect pass. Perfect that hit the receiver in directly in the hands and he just flat out missed it. If he had caught it the game would have been back to 21-14 I beleive.

When you exagerate to make your point maybe your point isn't that good.

[mars304]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

I have watched some of their games.

Is it your contention that the Raiders have anything less than the worst defense in the league?

Is it your contention that the Raiders have any sort of run game whatsoever?

The same context that I add to Dalton's performance during the four game losing streak, I"m sure you were buying that, cuz it's the Bengals. Add the same context to Palmer's situation, which is clearly much worse than Dalton's cuz the Bengals have a lot more talent overall, and you're going to claim the same logic doesn't fly.

I don't have a singular and entirely homer perspective on the game. I'm consistent. I don't give a hoot if ppl stupidly assess a QB on nothing but his team's won-loss record regardless of how bad every single other facet of that team may be becuz it makes no sense at all.

All I look at is "stats and fluff"???

You're aware that the Raiders OC Greg Knapp is a hack who installed the exact sort of zone blocking scheme that McFadden has never played well in, essentially mitigating the Raiders' best player? Since you watch all the games like a hawk, I'm sure you're aware of that but since you don't like Palmer, you'll conveniently leave that context out of it.

It's an impossible situation and Palmer is all the only positive thing they've got going for them. That's just the truth but becuz he bailed on your Bengals, you'll never give the guy his due. I don't have that problem and neither do others who really know the game.

He's a pretty good QB but like every other good QB not named Peyton, Brady, Rodgers or Brees, he can't carry a god awful team to the playoffs by himself.....Only the very elite guys can do that and even they usually struggle come playoff time i.e. Brady's last two SBs, Dan Marino's whole career, Peytons well noted playoff struggles, John Elway pre-Terrell Davis etc. etc..

Look at Brees and the Saints at 5-5 without Sean Peyton. I suppose Dalton is as good as Brees right? Same record, that's all that matters, that's the only thing by which QBs are judged right? Lulz.

Do you have anything other than the inaccurate assertion that I all I look at is "stats and fluff" with which to refute any of this?




.

If you watched the game yesterday you would have seen a pretty good run game. Reece is tearing it up in the running and passing game. So there is one excuse gone. I will admit that the first 2 interceptions were not his fault, but he still didn't do very well against a team that is supposed to be the worst against the pass. Trust me, he is on my fantasy team and I was not happy while watching.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[DennyG2]

Originally Posted by claws not hands

Now it sounds like you don't watch the games. The pick 6 was terrible. The redzone interception was a perfect pass. Perfect that hit the receiver in directly in the hands and he just flat out missed it. If he had caught it the game would have been back to 21-14 I beleive.

When you exagerate to make your point maybe your point isn't that good.

Shoulda...woulda...coulda. The fact is the Palmer led Raiders failed when they had chances. That is the story of the entire year for them. Even when Raiders are early in games, the Palmer led offense can't score...3-7!

[DennyG2]

Originally Posted by mars304

If you watched the game yesterday you would have seen a pretty good run game. Reece is tearing it up in the running and passing game. So there is one excuse gone. I will admit that the first 2 interceptions were not his fault, but he still didn't do very well against a team that is supposed to be the worst against the pass. Trust me, he is on my fantasy team and I was not happy while watching.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

exactly! Even when he was tearing it up early in the game the Palmer led Raiders could NOT score.

Who-dey!

[neek]

Originally Posted by DennyG2

exactly! Even when he was tearing it up early in the game the Palmer led Raiders could NOT score.

Who-dey!

I'm pretty pumped about this week's game. If we win it would be 3 straight, we would be 6-5, and we get to stick it to Carson. What could be better?

[DennyG2]

Originally Posted by neek

I'm pretty pumped about this week's game. If we win it would be 3 straight, we would be 6-5, and we get to stick it to Carson. What could be better?

Can't wait! Palmer may have a long day against Bengals dominant front 4.

[neek]

Originally Posted by DennyG2

Can't wait! Palmer may have a long day against Bengals dominant front 4.

That's what I'm hoping. Mr. Palmer isn't the most mobile QB.

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by DennyG2

While I do appreciate your undying love for carson Palmer, the fact is he is not very good and career wise mediocre at best, that is not disputable.

You forget that early in these games it is not like Palmer and the Raiders are even scoring then. His stats are full of garbage yards and you know that. Yesterday when it was still a game he had a pick 6 and a red zone int, against a porus saints defense, that is terrible. Finally, Palmer is the leader of a 3-7 team, no matter how you slice it, it is bad.

I think even a Palmer homer like yourself and I can both agree to thank him for allowing us to get Andy Dalton, who, by the way is much better than Palmer, and AJ green. Lets say it together, shall we...

THANK YOU CARSON!!!!


Who-Dey!

I noticed you conveniently forgot to mention that the TD you refer to was RIGHT IN the TE's hands, he whiffed and the TD turned into an int in the end zone. Or were you just reading stat lines instead of actually watching the game? Cause that's what I saw. The pick 6 was totally on CP3......he didn't step into the throw because of pressure. He should have still stepped into the throw and made it happen. What I saw were a few overthrows, one underthrow, and a lot of drops. But hey, what do I know, I only played for 10 years, coached for 3 and look at things objectively and with TRUTH......not Mike Clown purchased orange colored glasses.

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by mars304

If you watched the game yesterday you would have seen a pretty good run game. Reece is tearing it up in the running and passing game. So there is one excuse gone. I will admit that the first 2 interceptions were not his fault, but he still didn't do very well against a team that is supposed to be the worst against the pass. Trust me, he is on my fantasy team and I was not happy while watching.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

No, the first one was his fault......and that was only Reese's second or first start. They had been terrible in the run game up until his presence. My brother is a Raiders' fan......

[bengalfan247]

Originally Posted by DennyG2

Yesterday when it was still a game he had a pick 6 and a red zone int, against a porus saints defense, that is terrible.


Who-Dey!

As someone that supposedly watches the games you should know that "red zone" int went right through his TE hands and into the DB's hands and should have been a TD.

CP on the next possession drove the team down and scored a TD.

Then the ST allowed a 75 yard kick return. And then the defense on 3rd and 17 allowed a 38 yard bomb to get behind them for a TD.

You can say you are watching the games but your words say otherwise. I watch every game. EVERY GAME!! CP is putting up a herculean effort considering he has nothing besides Reece around him. Reece is a fullback that has been forced to play tailback because the 3 tailbacks on the team are injured. His best WR was gone for the season before the season started and DHB was almost killed on hit and missed games. Not to mention that DHB has a reputation for dropping as many passes as he catches when he does play. He had another game given away because the long snapper got hurt early and the guy they put in had 3 consecutive grounders to the punter/fgKicker that gave the other team the ball 3 times in Oakland terriory. In spite of that he is #3 in the league in passing yards (37 yards behind Ryan).

As for the wins?.. a Carson led team beat Pittsburgh this year. How did your team do against them?

I know you are all butthurt because your hero decided to call MB on failed promises. And you had to throw away all those #9 jerseys that you bought. I understand your hate. But don't talk about "watching games" when you don't know anything outside of talking points. oh yeah, one more thing. Hate only hurts the one who holds it. CP holds no ill feelings for Cincy or the Bengals. If fact, he keeps in regular contact with a few of the players. He is really looking forward to this game. The hate is all yours.

[bengalfan247]

Originally Posted by mars304

If you watched the game yesterday you would have seen a pretty good run game. Reece is tearing it up in the running and passing game. So there is one excuse gone. I will admit that the first 2 interceptions were not his fault, but he still didn't do very well against a team that is supposed to be the worst against the pass. Trust me, he is on my fantasy team and I was not happy while watching.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

If he is on your fantasy team then you should be pretty happy this year. I have him on one of mine. He has outperformed his projections every game (not sure yet about yesterday though).

[DennyG2]

Originally Posted by bengalfan247

As someone that supposedly watches the games you should know that "red zone" int went right through his TE hands and into the DB's hands and should have been a TD.

CP on the next possession drove the team down and scored a TD.

Then the ST allowed a 75 yard kick return. And then the defense on 3rd and 17 allowed a 38 yard bomb to get behind them for a TD.

You can say you are watching the games but your words say otherwise. I watch every game. EVERY GAME!! CP is putting up a herculean effort considering he has nothing besides Reece around him. Reece is a fullback that has been forced to play tailback because the 3 tailbacks on the team are injured. His best WR was gone for the season before the season started and DHB was almost killed on hit and missed games. Not to mention that DHB has a reputation for dropping as many passes as he catches when he does play. He had another game given away because the long snapper got hurt early and the guy they put in had 3 consecutive grounders to the punter/fgKicker that gave the other team the ball 3 times in Oakland terriory. In spite of that he is #3 in the league in passing yards (37 yards behind Ryan).

As for the wins?.. a Carson led team beat Pittsburgh this year. How did your team do against them?

I know you are all butthurt because your hero decided to call MB on failed promises. And you had to throw away all those #9 jerseys that you bought. I understand your hate. But don't talk about "watching games" when you don't know anything outside of talking points. oh yeah, one more thing. Hate only hurts the one who holds it. CP holds no ill feelings for Cincy or the Bengals. If fact, he keeps in regular contact with a few of the players. He is really looking forward to this game. The hate is all yours.

yet another Palmer apologist, yay!!!

I have zero hate for Palmer, after all, his decision gave my Bengals Andy Dalton and AJ Green , Dalton, by the way, is better than Palmer, which few could dispute. Besides, I was fortunate enough to spend time with Carson for 3 years at OTA's, he is a terrific guy, and treated me fantastic, so get the hate out of your head. As far as him contacting current players...who cares? As Whitworth said, he quit on his teammates, therefor, he wasn't wanted back. You making a desperate attempt to say he is having a hurcelean effort is laughable at best. He is no different now than he was here the last couple years. Poor when it mattered and good playing a mop up role ie; why he has thrown for a lot of yards. There is a reason Palmer is currently the 18th rated passer in the league this year and finished last year at 19th, 19th in 2010 and 16th the playoff year of 09'. That is not a fluke my friend, rather a trend, it is no mistake he is in the lower half of the QB's every year. Don't forget, with the same team, Jason Campbell not only had a winning record, but had a much higher rating than Palmer did as well. Let me guess, yet another mere coinsidence?



Again, I ask how I can possibly hate a guy who allowed us to get a leader at QB, who was a rookie pro bowler, and one of a handful of QB's to ever take a team to the playoffs during the rookie season? Dalton is 11th in the NFL and rising, while Palmer, your boy, sits exactly where he has been the last 5 years, which is in the bottom half of the league. It should be no surprise to you that Palmer is exactly where he is. I will say that Palmer looks pretty good against a prevent defense...

Who-Dey!

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by DennyG2

While I do appreciate your undying love for carson Palmer, the fact is he is not very good and career wise mediocre at best, that is not disputable.

You forget that early in these games it is not like Palmer and the Raiders are even scoring then. His stats are full of garbage yards and you know that. Yesterday when it was still a game he had a pick 6 and a red zone int, against a porus saints defense, that is terrible. Finally, Palmer is the leader of a 3-7 team, no matter how you slice it, it is bad.

I think even a Palmer homer like yourself and I can both agree to thank him for allowing us to get Andy Dalton, who, by the way is much better than Palmer, and AJ green. Lets say it together, shall we...

THANK YOU CARSON!!!!


Who-Dey!

Some of it's "garbage time" but not nearly the percentage you're making it out to be. Yea, the pick six and red zone int were early but if you've got no defense, you've got to take more chances.....If you've got no run game, the defense knows whats coming......I do not have to be an "undying Palmer lover" to consider these facts in my evaluation of his play and his overall ability as a QB.

Fact is, seven of the Raiders ten games have been close and even when they've gotten blown out, it ain't like it was necessarily easier to pile up yards and TDs.....Whatever advantage you gain by the defense backing off cuz of a big lead, you're giving some of it right back cuz they know you have to throw it. Which of course, they had to anyway cuz they have no run game to begin with but a big lead makes it even more predictable.

So you can say it's a "fact" that he's not very good, but that is subjective and I'm supremely confident that NFL player personnel guys would agree with my assessment way more than yours. He's a good QB on a really bad team imo.

Dalton is better right now, but he's not "much" better. He plays on a much better team. If you seriously think the Raiders are in the playoff hunt and the Bengals are not if you put Dalton there and Palmer here, then idk what to tell ya, cuz I don't think anyone being objective or reasonable would buy that.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by mars304

If you watched the game yesterday you would have seen a pretty good run game. Reece is tearing it up in the running and passing game. So there is one excuse gone. I will admit that the first 2 interceptions were not his fault, but he still didn't do very well against a team that is supposed to be the worst against the pass. Trust me, he is on my fantasy team and I was not happy while watching.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

We're not talking about just the Saints game, Denny is pretty much saying the Raiders are 3-7 cuz Palmer is awful. If he was just saying they lost to the Saints cuz Palmer stunk it up in that particular game, then whatevs, but that's not what he's been saying.

Also, you can't say that Reece going for a hundred yards, barely btw at 103, immediately means the Raiders run game wasn't non-existant prior to that, nor does it mean that at this point in the season, defenses aren't going to be more focused on the one thing the Raiders have had success doing this year, which is throwing it with Palmer.

Fantasy wise, I wish I'd have played Palmer over Matt Ryan in one of my leagues.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by DennyG2

yet another Palmer apologist, yay!!!

I have zero hate for Palmer, after all, his decision gave my Bengals Andy Dalton and AJ Green , Dalton, by the way, is better than Palmer, which few could dispute. Besides, I was fortunate enough to spend time with Carson for 3 years at OTA's, he is a terrific guy, and treated me fantastic, so get the hate out of your head. As far as him contacting current players...who cares? As Whitworth said, he quit on his teammates, therefor, he wasn't wanted back. You making a desperate attempt to say he is having a hurcelean effort is laughable at best. He is no different now than he was here the last couple years. Poor when it mattered and good playing a mop up role ie; why he has thrown for a lot of yards. There is a reason Palmer is currently the 18th rated passer in the league this year and finished last year at 19th, 19th in 2010 and 16th the playoff year of 09'. That is not a fluke my friend, rather a trend, it is no mistake he is in the lower half of the QB's every year. Don't forget, with the same team, Jason Campbell not only had a winning record, but had a much higher rating than Palmer did as well. Let me guess, yet another mere coinsidence?
Again, I ask how I can possibly hate a guy who allowed us to get a leader at QB, who was a rookie pro bowler, and one of a handful of QB's to ever take a team to the playoffs during the rookie season? Dalton is 11th in the NFL and rising, while Palmer, your boy, sits exactly where he has been the last 5 years, which is in the bottom half of the league. It should be no surprise to you that Palmer is exactly where he is. I will say that Palmer looks pretty good against a prevent defense...

Who-Dey!

Campbell's passer rating was mid 80's, just like Palmer's....Difference in the team was that McFadden was a pure beast for the first six games last year, thus the 4-2 record. The Raiders defense also wasn't nearly this bad last year, it was bad, especially in the second half of the season, but it's been by far the worst in football starting from week 1 this year.

09 and 10 the Bengals had squadoosh at receiver and OC. The Raiders receivers are better than what the Bengals had those years but not by a lot and he's still stuck with a hack OC. These contributors to the guy's passer rating can be chalked up as "excuses" if you want, but especially when he was here, I saw first hand the receiving corps and the coaching that he had around him. It was bad, I always thought he did about as good as just about any QB in the league not named Brady could have done with those clowns.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by DennyG2

exactly! Even when he was tearing it up early in the game the Palmer led Raiders could NOT score.

Who-dey!

Reece weighs 255lbs. After a few decent runs he was on the sidelines for a couple plays to catch his breath. Whenever he broke a big run, another guy would come in, so he could catch his breath. Reece is a great FB, and an amazing COP guy, but a feature back he is not. So while he may have had 103 rushing yards(against a porous runD ), the stats don't really tell the whole story.

There were a few drives that could have resulted in points that were killed by dropped passes and fumbles by receivers. There is absolutely no way those could be blamed on Palmer.

Also, in 5 of the Raiders 7 losses this season, the defense has given up an average of 41 points, with the low being 35 against Miami.
-San Diego was the game where they had abysmal ST play, particularly from the back up LS, which gave the Chargers 3 possessions in Oakland territory.
-Atlanta was the only game that Palmer should be directly blamed for losing. A pick6 in the final minutes of the game caused the loss.

It's all about context. Like you said, watch the games.
If you do, then there's no legit way you can blame Palmer for all of this mess.

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Campbell's passer rating was mid 80's, just like Palmer's....Difference in the team was that McFadden was a pure beast for the first six games last year, thus the 4-2 record. The Raiders defense also wasn't nearly this bad last year, it was bad, especially in the second half of the season, but it's been by far the worst in football starting from week 1 this year.

Campbell proved last night that he couldn't lead a team with the best scoring defense in the NFL to a victory, or even a close defeat. The Raiders would probably be in a worse spot with him at the helm, so all the people saying how he's so much better can put that to bed now.

[Who-Dey-Steve]

Carson Palmer reminds me of Vinny Testaverde. Both 6-5 230, not very mobile. Throw for a lot of yards, but also a lot pick's. I think Carson is little better then Vinny though.

[BengaliJack]

Originally Posted by Who-Dey-Steve

Carson Palmer reminds me of Vinny Testaverde. Both 6-5 230, not very mobile. Throw for a lot of yards, but also a lot pick's. I think Carson is little better then Vinny though.

Very similar styles for sure. Never terrible but never great as well.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Who-Dey-Steve

Carson Palmer reminds me of Vinny Testaverde. Both 6-5 230, not very mobile. Throw for a lot of yards, but also a lot pick's. I think Carson is little better then Vinny though.

Lulz, Vinny was extremely athletic, he was actually a good runner. You may be confusing his mobility with Bernie Kosar, who also came out of the university of Miami in the 80's.

[DennyG2]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

09 and 10 the Bengals had squadoosh at receiver and OC. The Raiders receivers are better than what the Bengals had those years but not by a lot and he's still stuck with a hack OC. These contributors to the guy's passer rating can be chalked up as "excuses" if you want, but especially when he was here, I saw first hand the receiving corps and the coaching that he had around him. It was bad, I always thought he did about as good as just about any QB in the league not named Brady could have done with those clowns.

i couldn't have said it better myself. Every excuse you said could be spoken for every QB in the league. That being the case, it doesn't change the fact that Palmer has lived in the lower half of QB's in the NFL. Your excuses, as you put it, are exactly just that.

I respect that you are so into Palmer, like I said, I had the pleasure to spend time with him on several occasions, and he is an awesome guy, but none of that changes the fact that over the last many years, he has consistently been ranked at the bottom half of the league. Don't forget, if you want to use your excuses for Palmer, the same should apply to all QB's.

Carry on...

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by DennyG2

i couldn't have said it better myself. Every excuse you said could be spoken for every QB in the league. That being the case, it doesn't change the fact that Palmer has lived in the lower half of QB's in the NFL. Your excuses, as you put it, are exactly just that.

I respect that you are so into Palmer, like I said, I had the pleasure to spend time with him on several occasions, and he is an awesome guy, but none of that changes the fact that over the last many years, he has consistently been ranked at the bottom half of the league. Don't forget, if you want to use your excuses for Palmer, the same should apply to all QB's.

Carry on...

You can't apply unique situations generally.
Most teams have a standout #1 receiver, Palmer doesn't.
Most teams have a defense that can hold teams to less than an average of 30ppg, Palmer doesn't.
Most teams have owners that want to win at all costs, Palmer didn't.
Most teams have a RB playing RB, Palmer doesn't.
Most teams have OCs that play to players strengths, Palmer doesn't.

Drew Brees was struggling when he didn't have his OC or HC helping him.
You can't put everything on the QB. It's way too simple.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by DennyG2

i couldn't have said it better myself. Every excuse you said could be spoken for every QB in the league. That being the case, it doesn't change the fact that Palmer has lived in the lower half of QB's in the NFL. Your excuses, as you put it, are exactly just that.

I respect that you are so into Palmer, like I said, I had the pleasure to spend time with him on several occasions, and he is an awesome guy, but none of that changes the fact that over the last many years, he has consistently been ranked at the bottom half of the league. Don't forget, if you want to use your excuses for Palmer, the same should apply to all QB's.

Carry on...

Lulz....No. No you can't say that about every QB in the league. Palmer hasn't had any decent receivers to throw to since 07. The one occassion he played with a decent defense, Bengals won the division but his passing numbers were down cuz no receivers but he also kept his ints down.....good defense and not having to force plays goes hand in hand.

Denarius Moore and Brandon Myers are decent but there's so much else wrong with that Raiders team that it doesn't really matter. Yea, they have the 6th ranked pass offense but you put that with the 31st rushing attack and 32nd scoring defense and what do you get.....a 3-7 team that can hardly be blamed on the starting QB. It's not that hard to figure out.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by ibengals

Carson is having a way better season than he's getting credit for. His offensive line *****, he has no run game, and he's still playing relatively well.

On pace for: 4840 yards, 27 TDs, 16 INTs

He's also on pace for 664 attempts. That's what you leave out. The Raiders are passing a TON. The stats you should look at are efficiency stats.

60.7% completions
85.8 rating

Meanwhile, our own Andy Dalton is on pace for 4050 yards, 32 tds and 18 ints. He's completing 64.2% with a 92.7 rating. Yet half the board is ripping him on a daily basis.