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  #1  
Old 11-23-2012, 05:44 PM
RIPSlim101 RIPSlim101 is offline
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Default Just Curious.

Why are so many mock drafts having us take a Defensive End very high? I thought we were fairly set with Dunlap and Johnson, or are we not expected to resign one or both? Not doubting anyone here just wondering what the thought process is.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

Probably cause the NY Giants are the most successful 4-3 team recently in the NFL and they have shown having 3 dominate DEs is the model to success; also, MJ is a FA (I think) and there's no guareentee he will return
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by bfine32 View Post
Probably cause the NY Giants are the most successful 4-3 team recently in the NFL and they have shown having 3 dominate DEs is the model to success; also, MJ is a FA (I think) and there's no guareentee he will return
I think MJ can be replaced. He benefits greatly from Geno up the middle, I haven't been sold on Dunlap either.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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I think MJ can be replaced. He benefits greatly from Geno up the middle, I haven't been sold on Dunlap either.
Agreed.

People always point at the rotation like it's something magical no one ever used before as a reason we dont need a DE high. When in reality we are ridiculously average at the DE spot and lack any star talent there.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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I think MJ can be replaced. He benefits greatly from Geno up the middle, I haven't been sold on Dunlap either.
He has been extremely disappointing this year.

On the bright side, at least we didn't spend a boatload on Mario Williams.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

We finished 5th in the league in sacks last year and are currently 3rd this year. Most of that production comes from our DL. I think you are right to question the need for a DE. The problem is MJ, Geathers, and Gilberry are all free agents. If we are able to bring all 3 back then I am not worried about the position. If we bring just MJ back I dont see a need for an early DE but it is a position that shouldnt be passed if it happens to be best player available at the time of our pick. You can never have enough pass rushers. Either way if all 3 free agents are not brought back we are in need of a body. And if for some reason we lose all three it easily becomes our biggest need.

I think we could easily stay status quo and improve due to the youth of MJ, Dunlap, and Gilberry and the potential that they get better.

MJ and Dunlap are studs. And the thought that they could easily be replaced or improved upon is nonsense.

Last edited by NATI BENGALS; 11-23-2012 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by NATI BENGALS View Post
We finished 5th in the league in sacks last year and are currently 3rd this year. Most of that production comes from our DL. I think you are right to question the need for a DE. The problem is MJ, Geathers, and Gilberry are all free agents. If we are able to bring all 3 back then I am not worried about the position. If we bring just MJ back I dont see a need for an early DE but it is a position that shouldnt be passed if it happens to be best player available at the time of our pick. You can never have enough pass rushers. Either way if all 3 free agents are not brought back we are in need of a body. And if for some reason we lose all three it easily becomes our biggest need.

I think we could easily stay status quo and improve due to the youth of MJ, Dunlap, and Gilberry and the potential that they get better.
MJ is painful at times, Dunlap is always hurt and completely unreliable.
Geathers is junk. Gilberry is nothing more than a reserve.
We need one or two DE for 2013.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by berserkerone88 View Post
MJ is painful at times, Dunlap is always hurt and completely unreliable.
Geathers is junk. Gilberry is nothing more than a reserve.
We need one or two DE for 2013.
MJ is an ironman and Dunlap when 100% healthy is one of the best in the game. It's not a coincidence MJ i having a career year in the final year of his rookie contract, he is going through the natural maturation process. Dunlap is 23 and could still end up being the premier DE in the league.

Geathers is by no means flashy but he is reliable. Kind of like a veteran backup should be. And when you have two starters naturally everyone else behind them is a reserve. Gilberry gives us quality snaps as a reserve.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by NATI BENGALS View Post
MJ is an ironman and Dunlap when 100% healthy is one of the best in the game. It's not a coincidence MJ i having a career year in the final year of his rookie contract, he is going through the natural maturation process. Dunlap is 23 and could still end up being the premier DE in the league.

Geathers is by no means flashy but he is reliable. Kind of like a veteran backup should be. And when you have two starters naturally everyone else behind them is a reserve. Gilberry gives us quality snaps as a reserve.
You are getting far too attached to mediocre players.
He is having a career year. Yes. One or two big games and non existent the other 14.
Sorry. But before his game sealing sack against Washington, I don't think I had heard his name called in a few weeks. You look at how he got his sacks (yes this matters) it isn't that impressive. He is average. Plain old average.

When Dunlap is 100%? When has he ever been? What has he done to ever make you think he could be 100%? I fully expect a pattern of him being hurt every camp.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by NATI BENGALS View Post
MJ is an ironman and Dunlap when 100% healthy is one of the best in the game. It's not a coincidence MJ i having a career year in the final year of his rookie contract, he is going through the natural maturation process. Dunlap is 23 and could still end up being the premier DE in the league.

Geathers is by no means flashy but he is reliable. Kind of like a veteran backup should be. And when you have two starters naturally everyone else behind them is a reserve. Gilberry gives us quality snaps as a reserve.
First, Gilberry, Geathers, & MJ are all free agents next year.

If Dunlap is out, then MJ is average. Dunlap misses about 4 games per year.

If you think about how many pressures and sacks (7.0) that Geno Atkins already has in 2012, you would think that our DEs would have a lot more. Dunlap has 2.0. MJ has 6.0. Geathers has 3.0. Gilberry has 2.0.

Imagine how much consistant pressure the Bengals dline would have if they drafted a rookie Defensive End that would 10 sacks per year?
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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First, Gilberry, Geathers, & MJ are all free agents next year.

If Dunlap is out, then MJ is average. Dunlap misses about 4 games per year.

If you think about how many pressures and sacks (7.0) that Geno Atkins already has in 2012, you would think that our DEs would have a lot more. Dunlap has 2.0. MJ has 6.0. Geathers has 3.0. Gilberry has 2.0.

Imagine how much consistant pressure the Bengals dline would have if they drafted a rookie Defensive End that would 10 sacks per year?
That's the key isn't?
We get our one or two sacks but rest the other time the QB sits there and picks us apart.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

Maybe they are hoping like I'm hoping we kill two birds with one stone and draft a DE we convert into an OLB to replace Lawson. That way we get our LB (cause we going to need one) and we have someone who can bring pressure on 3rd downs.
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:25 AM
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bengals Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by berserkerone88 View Post
MJ is painful at times, Dunlap is always hurt and completely unreliable.
Geathers is junk. Gilberry is nothing more than a reserve.
We need one or two DE for 2013.
MJ is a very good young player. Not sure where the hate you have for him comes from. He plays more downs than anyone across our dline. He stays healthy and produces.

Geathers is without a doubt the best run stopping DE we have. There is no contest. He is versatile and can move inside on passing downs.

Gilberry had turned out to be exactly the rotational guy you look for. He has been very productive with his snaps and is always around the ball. He is a guy you can play inside or out and he is effective doing either.

You are right none of these guys are named Jarred Allen. However in the case of MJ he is a young player that continues to improve. There is nothing I have seen that would indicate this improvement will not continue. Matter of fact I think the sky can be the limit with MJ.

With that said I would not mind seeing another young DE added but that comes more from Dunlap and his inability to stay healthy. Not so sure this is a first round need though. As I think MJ will be back and I am hoping Gilberto as well.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by berserkerone88 View Post
You are getting far too attached to mediocre players.
He is having a career year. Yes. One or two big games and non existent the other 14.
Sorry. But before his game sealing sack against Washington, I don't think I had heard his name called in a few weeks. You look at how he got his sacks (yes this matters) it isn't that impressive. He is average. Plain old average.

When Dunlap is 100%? When has he ever been? What has he done to ever make you think he could be 100%? I fully expect a pattern of him being hurt every camp.
You can fabricate whatever type of imaginary scenario you like. But going from your fantasy world to the real world and all of a sudden MJ has a sack or takeaway in 6 of the 10 games we have played this year. And once again he is playing more snaps than anybody on our DL and for some unknown reason this DL full of easily replaceable bums is leading the way for a D that is 3rd in the league in sacks.

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Bashing our best defensive player not named Geno - Always
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:06 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

i like the idea of drafting a DE high in the draft. if you all remember geathers had a 10 sack year and got the big payday and how did that workhe has been ok ever since. im worried MJ is a younger version of geathers he bulked up this year and playing lights out because he is in a contract year. gilberry and geathers both are avg at best could be upgraded
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by jj22 View Post
Maybe they are hoping like I'm hoping we kill two birds with one stone and draft a DE we convert into an OLB to replace Lawson. That way we get our LB (cause we going to need one) and we have someone who can bring pressure on 3rd downs.
In my view if the Bengals don't trade back, it will either be a DE or a LB in the 1st round.

LB, DE, SS, RB could/should be the first 4 selections.

IMO, Howard was a good WILL and should be available to re-sign. Though not the best, I would be okay with this allignment.

WILL: Howard/Lamur
MIKE: Burfict
SAM: Maualuga

Dontay Moch is a lost cause in my mind, but who knows? Brandon Joiner should be at least on the practice squad next year. I liked Schaffer at UC.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:10 AM
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bengals Re: Just Curious.

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In my view if the Bengals don't trade back, it will either be a DE or a LB in the 1st round.

LB, DE, SS, RB could/should be the first 4 selections.

IMO, Howard was a good WILL and should be available to re-sign. Though not the best, I would be okay with this allignment.

WILL: Howard/Lamur
MIKE: Burfict
SAM: Maualuga

Dontay Moch is a lost cause in my mind, but who knows? Brandon Joiner should be at least on the practice squad next year. I liked Schaffer at UC.
Not a big fan of the DE conversion to 4-3 SAM. Why not just draft a LB? At any rate at this point in time I feel Howard is our best three down backer. I absolutely feel he should be re-signed. If Rey is back I would keep him in the middle and move Burfict to SAM since Rey was terrible at the position.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

MJ is replaceable, but Dunlap is not. Check out the d-line numbers for when Carlos was injured, and then compare them to when he was back in the line-up. Johnson was a non-factor, and then once Dunlap in playing, MJ can make plays.


Johnson and Geathers are easily replaceable, but Dunlap is not. I understadn he is fragile for a DE, but the pressure he brings helps the rest of the defense, as the numbers show. I don't like the idea of drafting a DE, as a serviceable back up can be had in free agency. O-line depth is a bigger need than DE, as the Bengals are paper thin across the board there.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:32 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NATI BENGALS View Post
You can fabricate whatever type of imaginary scenario you like. But going from your fantasy world to the real world and all of a sudden MJ has a sack or takeaway in 6 of the 10 games we have played this year. And once again he is playing more snaps than anybody on our DL and for some unknown reason this DL full of easily replaceable bums is leading the way for a D that is 3rd in the league in sacks.

Berserk's grades
Respect given for lining up against the opposing teams LT - 0
Respect given for playing a majority of the snaps - 0
Respect given for playing within the scheme - 0
Bashing our best defensive player not named Geno - Always
I agree with your assesment that MJ is a valuable member of the defense; however, the best defensive player not named Geno is Leon.

WTS DE is a definite need for this team.

Geathers is servicable, but nowhere worth the 6.2 mil cap hit he cost us this year. Wouldn't be against bringing him back at a greatly reduced salary.

Dunlap is turning out to be unreliable and can be counted on for nothing more that spot duty.

Gilberry is a journeyman that has performed well for us and if he would be cheaper to retain than Geathers keep him and let Geather walk or visa versa.

So there is definitely a need for another "force" at DE. After MJ our next leading sacker at DE is Geathers with 3.

A guy I like in the mid to late 1st round is Alex Okafor. Through 9 games he has:
60 tackles, 12.5 tackles for loss, 8.5 sacks, 17 quarterback hurries, 3 forced fumbles, 1 blocked kick. Gimme that.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:34 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

A DE is what the Bengals need. Geathers is getting older, MJ will be a free agent, and Dunlap has shown little to none consistency.

Imagine if the Bengals get a player like Bjoern Werner. I know people will look at his stats, but this guy is also a beast at the run. I've seen a few games with him, and on a number of times he is stopping runners in the backfield. Werner is my favorite prospect in this draft and would love to see him in stripes. He could finally be the elite pass rusher the Bengals have needed for years.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:53 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
If Rey is back I would keep him in the middle and move Burfict to SAM since Rey was terrible at the position.
Rey is terrible at MLB as well.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:15 AM
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bengals Re: Just Curious.

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Rey is terrible at MLB as well.
And.........
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:28 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Originally Posted by NATI BENGALS View Post
You can fabricate whatever type of imaginary scenario you like. But going from your fantasy world to the real world and all of a sudden MJ has a sack or takeaway in 6 of the 10 games we have played this year. And once again he is playing more snaps than anybody on our DL and for some unknown reason this DL full of easily replaceable bums is leading the way for a D that is 3rd in the league in sacks.

Berserk's grades
Respect given for lining up against the opposing teams LT - 0
Respect given for playing a majority of the snaps - 0
Respect given for playing within the scheme - 0
Bashing our best defensive player not named Geno - Always
Boo hoo.
Respect? I have said he deserves credit for not missing plays. But that is not enough to say we don't need to look for an upgrade.

You lost all credibility when you say he is the 2nd best to Geno.
Hall and Dunlap are.

Sorry but the scheme ******** is just that. We have a lack of talent at DE so we run with what we can. The dude just goes invisible at times. Always was a knock on him since GT.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfine32 View Post
I agree with your assesment that MJ is a valuable member of the defense; however, the best defensive player not named Geno is Leon.

WTS DE is a definite need for this team.

Geathers is servicable, but nowhere worth the 6.2 mil cap hit he cost us this year. Wouldn't be against bringing him back at a greatly reduced salary.

Dunlap is turning out to be unreliable and can be counted on for nothing more that spot duty.

Gilberry is a journeyman that has performed well for us and if he would be cheaper to retain than Geathers keep him and let Geather walk or visa versa.

So there is definitely a need for another "force" at DE. After MJ our next leading sacker at DE is Geathers with 3.

A guy I like in the mid to late 1st round is Alex Okafor. Through 9 games he has:
60 tackles, 12.5 tackles for loss, 8.5 sacks, 17 quarterback hurries, 3 forced fumbles, 1 blocked kick. Gimme that.
Okafor got hurt the other day. Haven't seen how bad it is yet.
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Old 11-24-2012, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Just Curious.

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Boo hoo.
Respect? I have said he deserves credit for not missing plays. But that is not enough to say we don't need to look for an upgrade.

You lost all credibility when you say he is the 2nd best to Geno.
Hall and Dunlap are.

Sorry but the scheme ******** is just that. We have a lack of talent at DE so we run with what we can. The dude just goes invisible at times. Always was a knock on him since GT.
I'm not worried about my credibility standing with the guy who thinks MJ will be non-existent in 14 games this year.

MJ is the most consistent thing we have had at DE since Justin Smith left. And to think that we can easily replace the man who plays the most snaps on our DL, which is the strength of our D, is ludicrous.

If we lose MJ and replace him with a guy like Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey, Aaron Maybin, Jarvis Moss, or Derrick Morgan our D will suffer big time.
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