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  #1  
Old 11-23-2012, 12:49 PM
bengals67 bengals67 is offline
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Default Bengals/Dallas and free agents

Watched Dallas lose to Skins last night.

Interesting to think about the money Dallas spent on free agents and how it has turned out for them.

Now that we have some rising stars that need to be re-signed, I think we need to acknowledge the strategy of Bengals' front office in not pursing higher priced free agents -

provided we use the money to re-sign our rising stars.

We cannot lose Geno, Michael Johnson and Andre Smith.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by bengals67 View Post
Watched Dallas lose to Skins last night.

Interesting to think about the money Dallas spent on free agents and how it has turned out for them.

Now that we have some rising stars that need to be re-signed, I think we need to acknowledge the strategy of Bengals' front office in not pursing higher priced free agents -

provided we use the money to re-sign our rising stars.

We cannot lose Geno, Michael Johnson and Andre Smith.
Yes this building thru the draft philosphy only truely works when you resign your own home grown talent..

That being said mike brown has proven time and time again he will give the big contracts to players he thinks deserves it (not that i think mike brown is still in charge of the contracts i heard thats katies realm now)

we have lost a few here and there but it wasnt due to the offer they were getting. (or we had resigned others and had to let a few Go)

We wont be able to keep everyone unfortantely. But Geno and MJ and AS should all be resigned for at least a couple more years.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

You speak as if the season has been a smashing success. The Bengals are 5-5. We've had struggles at WR2, SS, LB and RB. If anything, that proves we did not fill enough holes in free agency.

Also, the Cowboys are only a half game worse than us right now (5-6), and only signed one semi-big free agent (Brandon Carr). Nothing has been proven. We have a nice young group of players, but we left too many holes unfilled.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
You speak as if the season has been a smashing success. The Bengals are 5-5. We've had struggles at WR2, SS, LB and RB. If anything, that proves we did not fill enough holes in free agency.

Also, the Cowboys are only a half game worse than us right now (5-6), and only signed one semi-big free agent (Brandon Carr). Nothing has been proven. We have a nice young group of players, but we left too many holes unfilled.
REally though. WR2 is being filled in nicely now by draft picks... (no need for a Free agent)

RB we have had injuries and struggles to both the position group and the OL

And SS we brought back crocker and have been rotating him with Mays and Clements. While none have proven to be all stars there yet Mays is improving and Cocker/Clements are decent stop gaps.

As long as we improve each game. its good. Signing big name free agents this year would have ment letting some of our home grown talent walk at seasons end.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:57 PM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by BengalsFan024 View Post
REally though. WR2 is being filled in nicely now by draft picks... (no need for a Free agent)

RB we have had injuries and struggles to both the position group and the OL

And SS we brought back crocker and have been rotating him with Mays and Clements. While none have proven to be all stars there yet Mays is improving and Cocker/Clements are decent stop gaps.

As long as we improve each game. its good. Signing big name free agents this year would have ment letting some of our home grown talent walk at seasons end.
How does it hurt? A position gets wrapped up for a few years and no more big money has to be spent there.
Just look at how many DB's we have on the books? We could easily cut 3 of them and have signed a top guy from last year and never had to worry about that position again for a few years. The back ups then could be rookies who learn the position, instead of having several higher priced former number 1 picks filling up your roster.

Other players salary comes off the books each year via contracts expiring, getting cut, guys not deserving of those big Rookie contracts (the ones signed before the new salary rules) etc. There's ways for the money to come back into the Pool for signing your own. The salary cap also goes up a little every year as well.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by BengalsFan024 View Post
REally though. WR2 is being filled in nicely now by draft picks... (no need for a Free agent)

RB we have had injuries and struggles to both the position group and the OL

And SS we brought back crocker and have been rotating him with Mays and Clements. While none have proven to be all stars there yet Mays is improving and Cocker/Clements are decent stop gaps.

As long as we improve each game. its good. Signing big name free agents this year would have ment letting some of our home grown talent walk at seasons end.
- Marvin Jones has done nothing this year, and Sanu shows promise but isn't quite ready to make an impact. So...I don't think the WR2 spot is being filled nicely this season at all. Next year, possibly. No one will ever convince me that a 2 year deal for Manningham as a stopgap would've hurt the team (or the development of Sanu/Jones for that matter).

- Our SS spot has been a platoon of two aged vets and a guy with no football instincts. If you think that's even close to an ideal situation then I'll have to strongly disagree.

- The injury was fairly predictable. Scott has never been accused of being durable. Leonard is made of glass also and never carries the ball much anyway. Lamar Miller or Robert Turbin would've helped.

Never said anything about BIG free agents. I said we left some holes left unfilled. We did.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

As others have said, Dallas isn't that much worse than we are. Murray being down is a pretty big detriment for them, and I'm sure they'd have a couple more wins if he had stayed healthy.

The fact is, this team chose to go into the 2012 season with a team full of holes:
LG(Wharton wasn't really an upgrade, more like a push. Boling being an upgrade was lucky.)
SS(Still don't have an answer)
CB(Dre didn't look too hot last week, and nobody else aside from Hall has shown much competence at the position)
WR2(I knew Binns would be a bust, and Tate is even worse. I'm glad Sanu is showing promise and hopefully that position will be secure for a few seasons at least.)
MLB( Rey M. is the worst starting MLB in the NFL, and Vontaze was a UFA with a weight and attitude problem. Expecting him to work out was a stretch at best, but I'm glad he's showing something.)
RB(Scott isn't that good when healthy. Leonard is injury prone, Peerman hasn't proven anything as a RB, Green-Ellis isn't a feature back.)

If AJ Green wasn't an absolute monster, this team wouldn't even be 5-5 right now.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:58 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

People predicted a 6-1 start on these boards and we are 10 games into the season and still don't have 6 wins despite playing one of the easiest schedules in the NFL.

We do have some good young talent...but a quality free agent or two is needed to go to the next level. Instead of fighting for a 6th seed...we should be winning the division with all of the Ravens and Steelers injuries.

Its funny that you think Dallas is so bad...they're half a game worse than us.

Losing to the winless Browns, Dolphins with an injured QB, then depleted Steelers is just as bad as anything Dallas did.
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:08 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

While we have the extra money we need to be locking up AJ, Geno, Andy and MJ long term.
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:26 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by yellowxdiscipline View Post
While we have the extra money we need to be locking up AJ, Geno, Andy and MJ long term.
MJ and Andre are the only big free agents due up this coming offseason. We have at least 12 million coming off the books next year, and you can always front load contracts. There was no good excuse to have 10+ mil in cap space this season.
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by yellowxdiscipline View Post
While we have the extra money we need to be locking up AJ, Geno, Andy and MJ long term.
This^

I'm more for signing our own in FA as far as the big names go. I'm not a fan of going out and signing a bunch of huge name FA. They rarely work out. I like the guys like Howard, Nelson and Crocker as far as bringing outsiders in. We've gotten pretty decent production out of some mid-range FA's over a handful of years and never broke the bank doing it. We need to keep getting our superstars from the draft. It works out better.
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:36 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

Zombie Thread.
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Old 11-24-2012, 06:52 AM
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Talking Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

Look at the eagles how did the free agents work out for them? The best franchises do it by the draft letting the free agents go their own way trading them for draft picks or getting draft picks for letting them walk. The steelers, patriots, packers and yes even the colts letting Payton walk. Usually the only exception is QB but the colts could not of landed on their feet any better than getting Luck. Most of the big contracts are for older players and are more looking at the money than winning if they have won before some want to go To a winner but most want the big payday although important it usually does not work out for the team that signs them. We did sign some free agents the guard got hurt on the first play of pre-season Allen has not seen the field the law firm was not meant to be the featured back but if you remember it was to be running back by rotation it is easy to look back and say this or that but the bengals have not had much luck with free agents. I like the process they are using the past few years but it does not happen overnight.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:29 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by bengals67 View Post
Watched Dallas lose to Skins last night.

Interesting to think about the money Dallas spent on free agents and how it has turned out for them.

Now that we have some rising stars that need to be re-signed, I think we need to acknowledge the strategy of Bengals' front office in not pursing higher priced free agents -

provided we use the money to re-sign our rising stars.

We cannot lose Geno, Michael Johnson and Andre Smith.
I don't know why people have an 'all or nothing' view of FA. You can get good FA without spending 100 mil. The 'draft only' model hasn't produced any results yet.

What happens if the team doesn't sign any of the three players you mentioned? They lost an opportunity to win in the short-term and they're long-term plans are dashed.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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I don't know why people have an 'all or nothing' view of FA. You can get good FA without spending 100 mil. The 'draft only' model hasn't produced any results yet.

What happens if the team doesn't sign any of the three players you mentioned? They lost an opportunity to win in the short-term and they're long-term plans are dashed.
Don't you know there has never been a team that's used free agency/trades successfully? The Saints and Patriots are a bunch of bums. The Vikings apparently drafted everyone from their 2009 team that narrowly missed the superbowl. Julius Peppers, Charles Woodson, JJoe? All busts. Also, all free agents require 50-100 million contracts. You can't find cheap players to fill holes.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by Original Bengal fan View Post
Look at the eagles how did the free agents work out for them?
People always use this example, but it's not indicative of what using FA the right way can do for a team. The Eagles went and signed all of the best players thinking they'd make an All Star team of sorts, but all of those guys didn't play well in the same scheme. Nnamdi, for example, is a man corner, but they've got him playing in a zone scheme.

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The best franchises do it by the draft letting the free agents go their own way trading them for draft picks or getting draft picks for letting them walk. The steelers, patriots, packers and yes even the colts letting Payton walk.
-Patriots recently traded for Aqib Talib, a pretty high profile player. In the past, they signed Corey Dillon in 2004 and won a SB on his back. Randy Moss was signed in 2007, along with the best slot receiver in the NFL, Wes Welker(thanks Shake). Tom Brady then had his best season statistically and went to the SB.

-The Steelers signed Jeff Hartings(Center) to a 6year, 25million dollar contract in 2001. He was a 2time pro-bowler and all-pro. Also was a key piece for their 2005 SB victory. Ryan Clark was signed after having a great season with the Redskins, and James Farrior was brought in after the 2001 season. All of these guys have contributed greatly to the success of the Steelers.

-I know this was a long time ago, but Brett Farve was acquired by trade(Packers gave up a 1st) in 1992. More recently, the Packers signing Charles Woodson as a FA, and for many years he was their best defensive player and leader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Bengal fan View Post
Usually the only exception is QB but the colts could not of landed on their feet any better than getting Luck. Most of the big contracts are for older players and are more looking at the money than winning if they have won before some want to go To a winner but most want the big payday although important it usually does not work out for the team that signs them.
If you're talking about a FA on their 3rd deal maybe, but if you can get a good player coming off of their rookie deal, they most definitely still want to win, and can be a great contributor. Still though, there are examples of older FAs that have worked out for some teams.
-Brian Waters, for example, was great when he signed with the Patriots in 2011, and he had been in the NFL for 12 seasons before that.
-Andre Carter came to the Pats after 10 seasons in the NFL and tied for the team lead in sacks, earning a trip to the pro-bowl.
-Willis McGahee had 8 seasons as a RB before being brought in by the Broncos. Pro Bowler in 2011.
-After 9 seasons in the NFL, the Jets brought in Tomlinson. He was a great addition for them for the 2 seasons he was there.
-Again, Randy Moss was a 9year vet when the Pats signed him. AFC Championship, Pro Bowl, All Pro, Comeback Player of the Year.
-18 seasons in, Brett Favre took the Vikings to an AFC Championship.
-For the Bengals, Dhani Jones was a good acquisition, and he was an 8year vet when they signed him.

There are more examples, but those are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Bengal fan View Post
We did sign some free agents the guard got hurt on the first play of pre-season Allen has not seen the field the law firm was not meant to be the featured back but if you remember it was to be running back by rotation it is easy to look back and say this or that but the bengals have not had much luck with free agents. I like the process they are using the past few years but it does not happen overnight.
That's because the Bengals generally stink in free agency. Don't let their lack of competence in this area spoil the entirety of NFL free agency for you.

The Saints brought in Curtis Lofton, and he's performing great.
The Broncos signed Peyton Manning, you already know what he's doing.
The Bucs got Vincent Jackson, and he's having a career year.
Johnathan Joseph
Greg Olson
Julius Peppers
Brandon Carr
Justin Smith
Pierre Garcon
etc, etc, etc...

Free agency works, and free agents play well for their new teams when it's done right. Build through the draft, but supplement through free agency.

Last edited by shaolinghost; 11-24-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

Jerry Jones is what happens when Al Davis and Mike Holmgren have a kid together. Jerry is a nutcase who vacillates between delirium and depression and who sees stars and dollar signs in his eyes whenever a notable player becomes eligible for free agency or trade. The Cowboys' problem is simple: Jerry doesn't think before he signs free agents or drafts players because he makes the same mistake every year of failing to consider which players fit his schemes best. So, therefore, every year Jerry ends up with a collection of players who look like world-beaters on paper but are really a Texas version of the Philadelphia Eagles.

Now, with this being said, I think sometimes the Bengals are too cautious in free agency but this is changing slowly as Marvin Lewis gets more say in these decisions. Smart Front Offices look at free agency with a 30,000 foot view, not with a microscope, signing players who would have an immediate positive impact upon their team.

Jerry Jones would be well advised to look at the way Tex Schramm and Tom Landry built the Cowboys into a permanent contender or the way Bob Kraft and Bill Belichick built the Patriots onto a nearly unstoppable juggernaut. The approaches taken by the Cowboys in the 1970s and the Patriots in the 2000s are strikingly similar. Going back further, the Cleveland teams of the 1950s and Green Bay teams of the 1960s were built the same way.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:03 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by shaolinghost View Post
People always use this example, but it's not indicative of what using FA the right way can do for a team. The Eagles went and signed all of the best players thinking they'd make an All Star team of sorts, but all of those guys didn't play well in the same scheme. Nnamdi, for example, is a man corner, but they've got him playing in a zone scheme.



-Patriots recently traded for Aqib Talib, a pretty high profile FA. In the past, they signed Corey Dillon in 2004 and won a SB on his back. Randy Moss was signed in 2007. Tom Brady had his best season statistically and they went to the SB.

-The Steelers signed Jeff Hartings(Center) to a 6year, 25million dollar contract in 2001. He was a 2time pro-bowler and all-pro. Also was a key piece for their 2005 SB victory. Ryan Clark was signed after having a great season with the Redskins, and James Farrior was brought in after the 2001 season. All of these guys have contributed greatly to the success of the Steelers.

-I know this was a long time ago, but Brett Farve was acquired by trade(Packers gave up a 1st) in 1992. More recently, the Packers signing Charles Woodson as a FA, and for many years he was their best defensive player and leader.



If you're talking about a FA on their 3rd deal maybe, but if you can get a good player coming off of their rookie deal, they most definitely still want to win, and can be a great contributor. Still though, there are examples of older FAs that have worked out for some teams.
-Brian Waters, for example, was great when he signed with the Patriots in 2011, and he had been in the NFL for 12 seasons before that.
-Andre Carter came to the Pats after 10 seasons in the NFL and tied for the team lead in sacks, earning a trip to the pro-bowl.
-Willis McGahee had 8 seasons as a RB before being brought in by the Broncos. Pro Bowler in 2011.
-After 9 seasons in the NFL, the Jets brought in Tomlinson. He was a great addition for them for the 2 seasons he was there.
-Again, Randy Moss was a 9year vet when the Pats signed him. AFC Championship, Pro Bowl, All Pro, Comeback Player of the Year.
-18 seasons in, Brett Favre took the Vikings to an AFC Championship.
-For the Bengals, Dhani Jones was a good acquisition, and he was an 8year vet when they signed him.

There are more examples, but those are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.



That's because the Bengals generally stink in free agency. Don't let their lack of competence in this area spoil the entirety of NFL free agency for you.

The Saints brought in Curtis Lofton, and he's performing great.
The Broncos signed Peyton Manning, you already know what he's doing.
The Bucs got Vincent Jackson, and he's having a career year.
Johnathan Joseph
Greg Olson
Julius Peppers
Brandon Carr
Justin Smith
Pierre Garcon
etc, etc, etc...

Free agency works, and free agents play well for their new teams when it's done right. Build through the draft, but supplement through free agency.

Bingo exactly signing guys in their prime usually works bengals sign guys at the end of the road or guys who never were much anyways. Jason allen, travelle wharton, tnewman, dont pop off the page as bigtime players in their primes thus you dont get great value.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:23 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Bingo exactly signing guys in their prime usually works bengals sign guys at the end of the road or guys who never were much anyways. Jason allen, travelle wharton, tnewman, dont pop off the page as bigtime players in their primes thus you dont get great value.

You can add Dexter Jackson and Sam Adams to this not-so-distinguished list. However, we must give the Front Office credit when they do sign free agents or make trades which have helped the team. First of all, mugging the Oakland Raiders in broad daylight this time last year was a brilliant move which covered many sins of the past. Also, I think bringing in Manny Lawson and Thomas Howard last year were good moves along with signing BenJarvus Green-Ellis this year. Back in 2005 the combination of Deltha O'Neal and Tory James provided many timely interceptions and even having Laveranues Coles around in 2009 provided Carson Palmer with another receiver to play opposite Chad then-Ochocinco. Anyone unhappy with Adam Jones' play of late? I hope not.

Currently Cincinnati is primarily in build-through-the-draft mode and I like this approach. Even Rey Maualuga is starting -- finally -- to show some flashes of competence and my list of recent draftees AJ Green, Andy Dalton, Michael Johnson, Mohamed Sanu, Andre Smith, Carlos Dunlap, Kevin Zeitler, Clint Boling, Dre Kirkpatrick, and Geno Atkins along with the non-draftee Vontaze Burfict should give fans of the orange and black hope.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:35 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

I agree about re-signing Geno and Smith, no idea why people want them to resign as they are too talented and have much of their futures still ahead of them...



MJ is very replaceable, as he was basically a non-factor until Dunlap hit the field. He's Tito Jackson. Great when paired with Dunlap, but if he went it alone, his career would fizzle. Check with Housh for details...
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:39 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
MJ and Andre are the only big free agents due up this coming offseason. We have at least 12 million coming off the books next year, and you can always front load contracts. There was no good excuse to have 10+ mil in cap space this season.
And some $30 million the year before. People were ecstatic with 9-7...but with the right signings it could have been 11-5...much like how people are talking like a 6th seed is equal to a Super Bowl win the past 2 weeks.

People say the Bengals retain their own but the fact is that only 4 or 5 guys on the current roster were drafted by the Bengals over 5 years ago.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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This^

I'm more for signing our own in FA as far as the big names go. I'm not a fan of going out and signing a bunch of huge name FA. They rarely work out. I like the guys like Howard, Nelson and Crocker as far as bringing outsiders in. We've gotten pretty decent production out of some mid-range FA's over a handful of years and never broke the bank doing it. We need to keep getting our superstars from the draft. It works out better.
IF you draft well it does. For years we drafted poorly and didn't add impact free agents.

We have 2 dominant players in Green and Atkins who make a bunch of guys look better.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:44 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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You speak as if the season has been a smashing success. The Bengals are 5-5. We've had struggles at WR2, SS, LB and RB. If anything, that proves we did not fill enough holes in free agency.
.
Agreed with the fact that the Bengals are 5-5, but WR2 has been trending upward and we haven't even seen Marvin Jones. SS has been suprisingly better with the arrival of Crocker and the rotation of Clements and Mays. LB has been a huge suprise with Burfict and Lamur and now Rey is playing much better after dropping the 20 lbs. RB? Still not much success here, but I think Peerman will get more and more snaps and make a bigger impact. Let's not forget that BScott was our #2 RB and he had at least flashed an ability for some big plays.

The common thread for nearly all those players: Marvin Jones, Sanu, Burfict, Lamur, Rey, and BScott is that they were draft picks or CFA. That is how you build a team.

The smashing success here is the Bengals will be able to re-sign Geno, AJ, Andy, and Gresh as they become FA as well because they haven't overpaid (still can't believe what the Cowboys paid Nate Livings) for Free Agents, they have built from three excellent drafts in a row.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:46 AM
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THE PISTONS THE PISTONS is offline
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Originally Posted by nevergonnachange View Post
I don't know why people have an 'all or nothing' view of FA. You can get good FA without spending 100 mil. The 'draft only' model hasn't produced any results yet.

What happens if the team doesn't sign any of the three players you mentioned? They lost an opportunity to win in the short-term and they're long-term plans are dashed.
Correct. It reduces down to the need to add impact players any way you can. Luckily we landed Green and Atkins through the draft. We could have just as easily landed a player like Blackmon who didn't produce. Some year the draft just isn't good.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:49 AM
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Default Re: Bengals/Dallas and free agents

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Bingo exactly signing guys in their prime usually works bengals sign guys at the end of the road or guys who never were much anyways. Jason allen, travelle wharton, tnewman, dont pop off the page as bigtime players in their primes thus you dont get great value.
Free agency was kind of a train wreck. Allen has played in what 1 game? BJGE has been underwhelming. Those were the big signings.
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