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Old 11-26-2012, 11:00 PM
bengalsfan2008 bengalsfan2008 is offline
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Default Thomas Howard?

I'm sorry, I didn't want to open another thread, but I really have a lot of questions about Thomas Howard...I don't want to resign either Manny or Rey (because I think we can do better) but if Howard was in good shape, I'd like to keep him rather than release him or let him go in FA. Burfict and Howard along with a rookie stud LB would make our defense better imo.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by bengalsfan2008 View Post
I'm sorry, I didn't want to open another thread, but I really have a lot of questions about Thomas Howard...I don't want to resign either Manny or Rey (because I think we can do better) but if Howard was in good shape, I'd like to keep him rather than release him or let him go in FA. Burfict and Howard along with a rookie stud LB would make our defense better imo.
Howard is another player that people on here love when in reality he's nothing more than league average.

He's good in coverage, that's it. Nothing else.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Howard is another player that people on here love when in reality he's nothing more than league average.

He's good in coverage, that's it. Nothing else.
Maybe it's because we've had Keith Rivers for so long before him. And please don't say he's ONLY good in coverage, because he made a lot of plays for us in the run game as well last season. He's not the strongest guy on the field, but he is a ferocious player. I've seen him hitting the daylights out of people.

I really would like to keep Howard over Rey or Manny. That's just the truth. And I'm not saying Rey is horrible, because he's been playing well, but I'd pick Howard over Rey.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:13 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

I would hope Manny is all but gone. Emmanuel Lemur has looked good in his limited time
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by bengalsfan2008 View Post
Maybe it's because we've had Keith Rivers for so long before him. And please don't say he's ONLY good in coverage, because he made a lot of plays for us in the run game as well last season. He's not the strongest guy on the field, but he is a ferocious player. I've seen him hitting the daylights out of people.

I really would like to keep Howard over Rey or Manny. That's just the truth. And I'm not saying Rey is horrible, because he's been playing well, but I'd pick Howard over Rey.
lol but he didn't.

Howard last year in 1024 snaps had 35 stops in the run game (TFL or failed 3rd down attempts).

In Keith's best year (2010), in exactly HALF the snaps, he had 29 stops.

Much bigger playmaker.

If I was the smart FO of the Bengals, I would've wiped the slate clean with Keith, and continued a rotation like we had with him and BJ, just instead of BJ, Howard, as Howard is better than BJ in coverage (and Keith is as well).
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Howard is another player that people on here love when in reality he's nothing more than league average.

He's good in coverage, that's it. Nothing else.
We miss his coverage.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

Sign back Howard and Lawson.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
lol but he didn't.

Howard last year in 1024 snaps had 35 stops in the run game (TFL or failed 3rd down attempts).

In Keith's best year (2010), in exactly HALF the snaps, he had 29 stops.

Much bigger playmaker.

If I was the smart FO of the Bengals, I would've wiped the slate clean with Keith, and continued a rotation like we had with him and BJ, just instead of BJ, Howard, as Howard is better than BJ in coverage (and Keith is as well).
Rivers played scared and didn't want to be here anymore.

I'm all about planning for next year but these are players that don't play for us this year.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
lol but he didn't.

Howard last year in 1024 snaps had 35 stops in the run game (TFL or failed 3rd down attempts).

In Keith's best year (2010), in exactly HALF the snaps, he had 29 stops.

Much bigger playmaker.

If I was the smart FO of the Bengals, I would've wiped the slate clean with Keith, and continued a rotation like we had with him and BJ, just instead of BJ, Howard, as Howard is better than BJ in coverage (and Keith is as well).
How's the playmaker doing for NYG?
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

I see...Truck, I guess you're right since you have the stats to back it up. But honestly, last season I watched every game and i always thought Howard played pretty solid and I liked him. and i would still keep him over Rey and Lawson.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by bengalsfan2008 View Post
I'm sorry, I didn't want to open another thread, but I really have a lot of questions about Thomas Howard...I don't want to resign either Manny or Rey (because I think we can do better) but if Howard was in good shape, I'd like to keep him rather than release him or let him go in FA. Burfict and Howard along with a rookie stud LB would make our defense better imo.
We've been winning but i completly agree. Get rid of Rey & Manny, Keep Howard & draft a LB since Dontay Moch is basically dead....I also would let Michael Johnson walk if he wants to much money since he's average at best & then draft Bjoern Werner.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by bfine32 View Post
How's the playmaker doing for NYG?
Lol he doesn't want to have that convo because Keith isn't even the starter there.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Lol he doesn't want to have that convo because Keith isn't even the starter there.
He started on Sunday.

Nice try.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:38 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Howard is another player that people on here love when in reality he's nothing more than league average.

He's good in coverage, that's it. Nothing else.
Dude was a helluva lot better than Rivers was, and he was there at a time when we needed him.

Plus what was our defense ranked last year? 7th overall... Howard was a vital part of it. Id say hes more than average.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:57 AM
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bengals Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by bengalsfan2008 View Post
I'm sorry, I didn't want to open another thread, but I really have a lot of questions about Thomas Howard...I don't want to resign either Manny or Rey (because I think we can do better) but if Howard was in good shape, I'd like to keep him rather than release him or let him go in FA. Burfict and Howard along with a rookie stud LB would make our defense better imo.
WLB - Re-sign Thomas Howard....our best three down LB.

MLB - Burfict

SLB - Chase Thomas ....Stanford

I would re-sign Skuta as he is a good ST player and is a good backup to have at SLB or MLB.

As soon as the season is over Guenther should be instructed to start working with Taylor Mays and grooming him as our #2 WLB. He has the size and speed needed and is a thumper. He has shown to be able to cover backs and TEs and when put in the box can make plays behind the line in the run game with his speed. His coverage problems come when alone with a WR in open space.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:45 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by CINCYPRODUCT View Post
Lol he doesn't want to have that convo because Keith isn't even the starter there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
He started on Sunday.

Nice try.
And Rivers had two tackles in that start.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/gameca...version=mobile
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:05 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

I would not mind bringing back Howard and letting Burfict slide over to the middle. The kid is a natural leader with great football instincts. Our 1st round pick is going to be too low for a shot at Te'o, so we need Burfict there. Howard is good in coverage, but poor in run support, so maybe a platoon would work. Or a draft pick.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:09 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
He started on Sunday.

Nice try.
Starting doesn't necessarily mean they are the primary player at that position. Snap percentage is a better indicator of that. We've seen Taylor Mays get starts before, but hardly play any snaps during a game. It greatly depends on the opposing team's setup for the first play of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlotharw
And Rivers had two tackles in that start.
Tackles in a game may not directly indicate performance either, as he may not have had many chances to be near the person to be tackled.

Can we get percentage of snaps (or total snap count) and number of missed tackles?

Statistics can be interpreted many ways when being hand-picked.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:13 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
WLB - Re-sign Thomas Howard....our best three down LB.

MLB - Burfict

SLB - Chase Thomas ....Stanford

I would re-sign Skuta as he is a good ST player and is a good backup to have at SLB or MLB.

As soon as the season is over Guenther should be instructed to start working with Taylor Mays and grooming him as our #2 WLB. He has the size and speed needed and is a thumper. He has shown to be able to cover backs and TEs and when put in the box can make plays behind the line in the run game with his speed. His coverage problems come when alone with a WR in open space.
I like this setup a lot. I would also be fine with Te'o at MLB and Burfict at WLB, or Mosley at WLB and Burfict at MLB. Heck, if Maualuga continues to play like he has the past couple games, I'd even be ok with him at MLB and Burfict at WLB.

Either way, I like Chase Thomas as our future SAM!

Thomas 2013!
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
lol but he didn't.

Howard last year in 1024 snaps had 35 stops in the run game (TFL or failed 3rd down attempts).

In Keith's best year (2010), in exactly HALF the snaps, he had 29 stops.

Much bigger playmaker.

If I was the smart FO of the Bengals, I would've wiped the slate clean with Keith, and continued a rotation like we had with him and BJ, just instead of BJ, Howard, as Howard is better than BJ in coverage (and Keith is as well).
Stats can be a good thing, but in they are just a piece of the overall analysis. In your case, you always seem tl base performance solely on stats. Stats one site provides and not stats the coaching staff provides. Sorry, but in your Howard analysis, you are incorrect. Howard was the only 3 down linebacker we had prior to this year. He was our leading tackler. He was rarley asked to run or pass blitz so he had minimal tackles for loss. That was a product of scheme and not player.

I appreciate you taking the time to give us stats every week, but even you say at times you disagree with them at times. You just said you disagreed with 3 or 4 players last week. In this case, I will use my eyes, my 50 years playing, coaching and watching football to say Howard was a huge loss to us in 2012. I hope he gets healthy and rejoins the team in 2012. If someone is good enough to beat him out ad take his starting spot, so be it, just means our team is progressing. If not, he is a solid NFL linebacker.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:39 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OchoCincos View Post
Starting doesn't necessarily mean they are the primary player at that position. Snap percentage is a better indicator of that. We've seen Taylor Mays get starts before, but hardly play any snaps during a game. It greatly depends on the opposing team's setup for the first play of the game.


Tackles in a game may not directly indicate performance either, as he may not have had many chances to be near the person to be tackled.

Can we get percentage of snaps (or total snap count) and number of missed tackles?

Statistics can be interpreted many ways when being hand-picked.
Hey, he brought up the starting bit, not me lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvnit2 View Post
Stats can be a good thing, but in they are just a piece of the overall analysis. In your case, you always seem tl base performance solely on stats. Stats one site provides and not stats the coaching staff provides. Sorry, but in your Howard analysis, you are incorrect. Howard was the only 3 down linebacker we had prior to this year. He was our leading tackler. He was rarley asked to run or pass blitz so he had minimal tackles for loss. That was a product of scheme and not player.

I appreciate you taking the time to give us stats every week, but even you say at times you disagree with them at times. You just said you disagreed with 3 or 4 players last week. In this case, I will use my eyes, my 50 years playing, coaching and watching football to say Howard was a huge loss to us in 2012. I hope he gets healthy and rejoins the team in 2012. If someone is good enough to beat him out ad take his starting spot, so be it, just means our team is progressing. If not, he is a solid NFL linebacker.
I disagree with the GRADES, but not with the RAW STATS.

In the Howard/Keith debate, I never once used the grades that PFF uses for my side of the argument (and even then, Keith's better across the board, MARKEDLY better, except for coverage), merely raw stats. Keith's stats were just a shade below Howard's, and he played exactly half of the snaps Howard did.

As well, when it comes to eyeball test, I NEVER saw Keith as out of place as Howard was; yes he missed a couple more tackles here and there, but he was in a better position to make those tackles a lot more than Howard.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

Rivers is soft!
Always has been, always will be.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Rivers is soft!
Always has been, always will be.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:43 AM
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Default Re: Thomas Howard?

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Originally Posted by tlotharw View Post
And Rivers had two tackles in that start.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/gameca...version=mobile
Lol IN THAT START. He still isn't the starter he just started the game. Ricers never will be a starter in the NFL again. It is so comical his two tackles but look out he is better than Howard. Please truck you will lose this rivers debate again.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:46 AM
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No to Lawson, but yes to Rey and Howard
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