Thomas Howard?

[CINCYPRODUCT]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Hey, he brought up the starting bit, not me lol.



I disagree with the GRADES, but not with the RAW STATS.

In the Howard/Keith debate, I never once used the grades that PFF uses for my side of the argument (and even then, Keith's better across the board, MARKEDLY better, except for coverage), merely raw stats. Keith's stats were just a shade below Howard's, and he played exactly half of the snaps Howard did.

As well, when it comes to eyeball test, I NEVER saw Keith as out of place as Howard was; yes he missed a couple more tackles here and there, but he was in a better position to make those tackles a lot more than Howard.

My god here we go Keith only missed a few tackles.... That dude went on streak of horridness he not only missed tackles but was never good in coverage.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by CINCYPRODUCT

My god here we go Keith only missed a few tackles.... That dude went on streak of horridness he not only missed tackles but was never good in coverage.

Keep talking ****.

I've had this debate a good 7-8 times since the end of 2011, and you've brought nothing to the table to even begin to debate, aside from boorish comments.

Until you have something of substance, shut up. At least if Mulligan challenges my opinion, he doesn't insinuate **** that didn't even happen.

[CINCYPRODUCT]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Keep talking ****.

I've had this debate a good 7-8 times since the end of 2011, and you've brought nothing to the table to even begin to debate, aside from boorish comments.

Until you have something of substance, shut up. At least if Mulligan challenges my opinion, he doesn't insinuate **** that didn't even happen.

Wow ok mr. Cranky I've said nothing about him thats not true for if I did name one borish to you because he is one of your favorites. Mulligan argues your direct PFF stats, I argue how you try and use them to make guys like Rey, Keith and whit look good when they get abused on the field or aren't very good. But to put this to sleep since Keith will never start again let's compare the last seasons these guys started which is the 2009 season.

Keith ended that season with 72 tackles 1 sack 1interception
Howard 79 tackles 2 sacks 1 forced fumble

At first glance it's like look they are about even which bodes well for your weak argument saying that Howard is a slight upgrade coupled with the fact Keith only played 13 games, but if you break the numbers down Keith had only I repeat only 46 solo tackles that year. That's the stat and point. I remember that year Keith was on his *** a lot which explains the low solo tackle he was always being taken out of the play by a fullback he very rarely attacked the run and when he did sonetimes he over pursûed. On the flip side Howard was playing injured toward the end of that year in oakland and had 72 out of 79 solo tackles. The EYEBALL test while he was here he always attacked the run very rarely on his back side and played with aggresion. Though you may be asleep from boredom rivers is still not a starter in the NFL and won't be again he is a career back up. Thomas is better and has the numbers to back it up from a rookie till now.

[bengalsfan2008]

Truck, I understand you don't seem to value Howard very much, but I honestly believe that he makes our defense better. Run and pass. Regardless of stats, sometimes a players presence can make all the difference...

[hairdo]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Howard is another player that people on here love when in reality he's nothing more than league average.

He's good in coverage, that's it. Nothing else.

O K , You can un T U C K your head out your Kister now . I would have loved to have had him around for 1 st half of season

[The British Bengal]

I'd be amazed if TH isn't brought back next year, injury permitting. And, for those of you wondering just what he got up to for Thanksgiving or who the best-dressed Bengals are...;-)

http://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/fe...tryID=10470403

[XenoMorph]

Howard depending on recovering of injurey should be resigned next year.

He was great last year.

But if Burfict holds onto the Will spot where does he play.

[Hammerstripes]

Here we go again with the PFF nonsense.

Sure, the numbers may say that Rivers is a better linebacker than Howard, but that only takes into account individual performance. A defense is the sum of its parts, that is something that PFF or any other stat can't take into account on the defensive side of the ball.

The bottom line is that when Howard was our starting WILL, our defense was better.

[CINCYPRODUCT]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

Here we go again with the PFF nonsense.

Sure, the numbers may say that Rivers is a better linebacker than Howard, but that only takes into account individual performance. A defense is the sum of its parts, that is something that PFF or any other stat can't take into account on the defensive side of the ball.

The bottom line is that when Howard was our starting WILL, our defense was better.

What part off PFF Saids he is better score? Stats are not close. You can compare each year they've been in from rookie to Keith's current and these guys are no where near close. It's good truck thinks I'm boring because watching thus guy lose another Keith vs Howard discussion is excrutiating.

[ibengals]

Thomas Howard is a better fit than Keith Rivers.

Rivers, for some reason, remains overrated on these boards. What the hell has he done since we traded him? Started a couple games for a terrible defense?

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

Here we go again with the PFF nonsense.

Sure, the numbers may say that Rivers is a better linebacker than Howard, but that only takes into account individual performance. A defense is the sum of its parts, that is something that PFF or any other stat can't take into account on the defensive side of the ball.

The bottom line is that when Howard was our starting WILL, our defense was better.

Keith as our starting WILL, 4th best defense at best.

Howard as our starting WILL, 7th best defense (or 9th?).

You were saying?

CP, you can't grasp context or anything I say, and I haven't lost a single debate on the matter, so keep talking ****.

PFF has zero to do with is as well HS, I merely said that if I brought that into the discussion, it too would show Keith on top.

Stop this BS; I have argued the point enough. I merely said my piece in the second post, I didn't intend to start a debate or a discussion, as I've beaten this topic to death. But of course people can't wait enough to thrash an opinion if it doesn't agree with theirs.

And Keith has done more this year than Howard has, so why is everyone bringing up "how many games has he started?" and "how many tackles does he have."

People said the same **** last year when HE was hurt.

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by BengalsFan024

Howard depending on recovering of injurey should be resigned next year.

He was great last year.

But if Burfict holds onto the Will spot where does he play.

Howard should be re-signed no doubt. Burfict should not be the WILL next season. If for some reason we re-sign Rey to play the middle (where Burfict should be next season) then you move Burfict to the strong side.

Now in regard to Howard and Rivers. No comparison. Howard is a much better player for this team. The comparison about defensive ranking while each played as a determining factor is ludicrous as they are not the only difference in those defenses.

When Rivers was here you had to check the line up to see if he was playing because he disappeared when on the field. Howard is always around the ball. Howard makes impact plays that you notice on the field. Howard if not making the play is constantly forcing the play into our protection.

[Carlos Spicyweiner]

Rivers is soft.
Big pink furby soft.

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Keith as our starting WILL, 4th best defense at best.

Howard as our starting WILL, 7th best defense (or 9th?).

You were saying?

CP, you can't grasp context or anything I say, and I haven't lost a single debate on the matter, so keep talking ****.

PFF has zero to do with is as well HS, I merely said that if I brought that into the discussion, it too would show Keith on top.

Stop this BS; I have argued the point enough. I merely said my piece in the second post, I didn't intend to start a debate or a discussion, as I've beaten this topic to death. But of course people can't wait enough to thrash an opinion if it doesn't agree with theirs.

And Keith has done more this year than Howard has, so why is everyone bringing up "how many games has he started?" and "how many tackles does he have."

People said the same **** last year when HE was hurt.

Keith was only ever a 2 down LBer here..
with Brandon Johnson handling the passing Downs. Howard was a 3 down Lber here.

Keith could not stay healthy a full season.

Keith got to play this season howard did not. Keith is now also on IR i believe so another season ended before 16 games played.

That was the problem it doesnt matter how good a player is if they cant stay on the field and be productive.

Production is what matters in the NFL For this reason

Howard >>>>> Rivers.

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by ibengals

Thomas Howard is a better fit than Keith Rivers.

Rivers, for some reason, remains overrated on these boards. What the hell has he done since we traded him? Started a couple games for a terrible defense?

How is he overrated? All but about 5 people hate Keith

[Carlos Spicyweiner]

Keith=check collecter

[Mack Morgan]

I caught a feller name Keith with my wife out in the shed

[Carlos Spicyweiner]

Originally Posted by Mack Morgan

I caught a feller name Keith with my wife out in the shed

Just put a Hines Ward jersey over the entrance........... Won't happen again.

[THEBURG]

Originally Posted by Carlos Spicyweiner

Just put a Hines Ward jersey over the entrance........... Won't happen again.

[Mack Morgan]

Originally Posted by Carlos Spicyweiner

Just put a Hines Ward jersey over the entrance........... Won't happen again.

[eliminate08]

Originally Posted by bengalsfan2008

I'm sorry, I didn't want to open another thread, but I really have a lot of questions about Thomas Howard...I don't want to resign either Manny or Rey (because I think we can do better) but if Howard was in good shape, I'd like to keep him rather than release him or let him go in FA. Burfict and Howard along with a rookie stud LB would make our defense better imo.

You could be right about Manny and Rey. While Rey has been playing better lately i just
don't think he gives us what we need to have a great linebacker core. Lawson has had a
bad year too no doubt.

I like Howard, unlike Truck and think he makes a very good WILL linebacker. That is what
i like about Burfict, he can play all the spots and i love his desire and passion.

[CINCYPRODUCT]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Keith as our starting WILL, 4th best defense at best.

Howard as our starting WILL, 7th best defense (or 9th?).

You were saying?

CP, you can't grasp context or anything I say, and I haven't lost a single debate on the matter, so keep talking ****.

PFF has zero to do with is as well HS, I merely said that if I brought that into the discussion, it too would show Keith on top.

Stop this BS; I have argued the point enough. I merely said my piece in the second post, I didn't intend to start a debate or a discussion, as I've beaten this topic to death. But of course people can't wait enough to thrash an opinion if it doesn't agree with theirs.

And Keith has done more this year than Howard has, so why is everyone bringing up "how many games has he started?" and "how many tackles does he have."

People said the same **** last year when HE was hurt.

Haha really defensive ranking is why you believe Keith is good....?
Well lets look into this the 2009 season is what you are comparing to 2011 season for Howard.
2009 season: pass yards / rush yards/ Keith's tackles
Den- 243/65/2
GB-281/89/5
Stoolers-276/99/5
Turds-269/121/7
Balt-186/78/0 from here he stinks it up the rest of the season
Houston-392/88/3
Bears-251/31/3
Balt-195/51/1
Det-192/82/2 after this our 3 game stretch with out him boy does the defense improve.
Browns- 100/50/inj
Raiders-183/59/inj
Stoolers-174/57/inj best 3 game stretch that season defensively
Minn-192/122/3 granted we played against AP
Chargers-308/70/2
KC-180/123/4
Jets- 63/170/9 this game he was being demolished but made it out with 9 tackles.

I agree stats aren't defenitive but they do paint a decent picture. Keith ended that year with a total of 46 solo tackles he is terrible. The three games he was out and the team didn't have to compensate for him being out we had solid defensive performances even in our 1 loss. Keith is great for a fill in LB but a starter he is not wont make the probowl or play at an all pro level. His best year he has 51 solo tackles and currently is not a starter and has 24 tackles 5 games left in the season. Better than Howard only to dillusional ppl. Lol I also recall you saying he is currently having a better season than Howard..... Dude your rediculous.

[Paul from Dayton]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

But of course people can't wait enough to thrash an opinion if it doesn't agree with theirs.

[bengalsfan2008]

I think next year, we really need to pick up a RB with our first two picks. But we need a new LB with whichever pick we don't use on the RB. A stud LB. Burfict, Howard, and *stud rookie LB* would make our team loads better. Burfict in the middle, Howard (if he stays) at Will, and *stud rookie LB* will be the SLB. I really hope Howard stays. I think he is a very instinctive player. He is better in coverage than the run, but he is not as bad as Truck makes him out to be. It's his opinion and to each his own. I'm not bashing Truck for his opinion. I mean come on, if he likes Rivers better, let him.

[yellowxdiscipline]

I cant believe there are people on here who defend Rivers.... I mean what little time he spent on the team healthy he did nothing spectacular.. We are better off without him and with Howard.