Why do so many want a DE?

[NKUATO]

Originally Posted by Stewee28

I think Vaccaro is the best Safety in this years draft class. I would definitely love that pick. Personally, I want Vaccaro or Rambo. Those are the top two safeties on my draft board. Vaccaro is solid in every aspect (run support and pass coverage). Rambo just flocks to the ball and he's a heavy hitter when he needs to be.

With that said, I would still like to address another top DE. Whether it be with our 1st round pick or one of the two 2nd round picks!

I'm going to disclaim this by saying I've yet to be able to watch much college football but, Nelson is starting to get up there in age, why not get KV in the first to start at the SS and use the 3rd on Rambo (maybe trade up with some of our lower picks) and have him play in nickel situations and spell Nelson to eventually take over for him? It helps us currently and for the future, plus provides another safety net (no pun intended) in case someone goes down or is under performing.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by Jasonew6

After reading the article about MJ on Bengals.com, I definitelt think he will be worth re-signing, and would not object to tagging him. It seems to me he might finally be playing up to his athletic ability, and he's a great "kid".

He is not 11 million dollars a year good

[Jasonew6]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

He is not 11 million dollars a year good

Could he be though? If he is just coming into his prime do we want to let him go? He has all the tools. He is on a pace for 12 sacks and has not yet reached his ceiling.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by Jasonew6

Could he be though? If he is just coming into his prime do we want to let him go? He has all the tools. He is on a pace for 12 sacks and has not yet reached his ceiling.

I think you are being highly optimistic.
I wouldn't give him more than 5-6 until he does this in a non-contract year or without Geno inside. Because he is seeming more like Ray Edwards than anything else.
11 million a year shows up every game. 11 million a year doesn't get most of his credit for "playing a lot of snaps." I would rather let him walk than blow 11 million on him.
He is not worth that much. He is not a top DE. His 12 sacks have been extremely underwhelming.

[hacker]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

Johnson - Free Agent (career year in a contract year, anyone shocked?)
Geathers - Free Agent (does anyone want him back?)
Gilberry - Free Agent (guy off the street)

Let's face it our current group of DE's is seeing their numbers inflate with the presence of Geno in the middle.
With that said, if MJ hits 10 sacks on the year he will want a lot more than he has been worth for his 3 sacks a year before this one.
So yeah, if MJ asks for more than he has been worth, I would say DE becomes our biggest need.

Wallace Gilberry has actually been a pretty good find. He gets pressure and a sack here aznd there. Not a bad rotation guy.

[hacker]

Originally Posted by Stewee28

Its all going to come down to who is there when we pick. It seems like every week, the prospect rankings change big time. I see Damontre Moore climb and fall every week. Same with Montgomery and Werner. If one of those three are there when we pick (late Teens - early Twenties), you have to jump on one of them. Even if we resign MJ, we can insert one of them in Geathers position and our DL becomes more dominant then it already is.

LB is probably our biggest need, but outside of Jones and Te'o, there will be no one there when we pick and you dont want to reach for the next best LB (Ogeltree, Thomas or whoever). We can address LB in the 2nd round (Thomas, Greene or someone else).

RB is right up there with LB even with how well we have been running the ball as of late. Randle and Bernard should be there in the 2nd. Gillislee is starting to rise up the boards. Stephan Taylor, Kenjon Barner, Johnathan Franklin, Andre Ellington. There are a lot to choose from.

Safety is a big need as well. If we dont choose DE in the first round, I wouldnt be opposed to grab Vaccaro or Reid (Vaccaro looks to be the best, Reid fluctuates every week; Elam, McDonald and Rambo are up there as well)

1 - Damontre Moore, Sam Montgomery or Bjoren Werner
2 - Chase Thomas
2 - Joseph Randle
3 - Bacarri Rambo
4 - Gerald Hodges (I really hope he falls bc I really want him) or Sean Porter

OR.....

1 - Vacarro / Reid
2 - Chase Thomas
2 - Randle / Bernard
3 - Gerald Hodges

Where we will be picking; likely around 20 or hopefully later, we can get that really good Safety or ILB or maybe the RB although I'm generally against a first round RB. We are in dire need of a speed back tho and maybe this i the year we get him.

[Lolli]

Originally Posted by hacker

DE is not a position of weakness on this team. There are so many other areas where we truly need help I just don't get wanting to draft a DE in Rd 1. Sure, a guy that gets us 10 sacks is grea, but not if he is taking over a position where the present guy can get us 6-7. We need more def backfield help at CB and especially at Safety. We need alot of RB help, we can use 2-3 LBers, especially one or two that cna be impact players. If we take a DE in RD 1, I think it's a big mistake. I hope we go like we did with Spoikes and Simmons with our first 2 picks and then foillow that with a RB and a Safety. No to D-linemen!

Look at value. Which RB, Safety or OLB is worth the 20th (estimate) pick next year?

There are barely any RBs worth a pick in the 2nd round this year let alone the 1st. It would take a miracle in the all star games and the combine for me to change my mind about that one.

If we slide further back, I might think Reid or Vacarro make more sense. Does Mosely translate well into a 4-3 OLB?

Most of our needs vs. available talent this year fit is the late 1st early 2nd round range.

[Stewee28]

Originally Posted by Lolli

Look at value. Which RB, Safety or OLB is worth the 20th (estimate) pick next year?

There are barely any RBs worth a pick in the 2nd round this year let alone the 1st. It would take a miracle in the all star games and the combine for me to change my mind about that one.

If we slide further back, I might think Reid or Vacarro make more sense. Does Mosely translate well into a 4-3 OLB?

Most of our needs vs. available talent this year fit is the late 1st early 2nd round range.

This is exactly why we should take Sam Montgomery or Okafor if either are there when we pick. They are both top tier DE in this years draft and both are slipping down the board for whatever reason. DE in the first, RB and LB in the second and Safety in the third. There is no reason what so ever to reach for what we need. Gio Bernard is who I would really like to land for a RB, but he wont go till the second round. LBs are all over the place in the second round and Rambo would be a great pick up for a safety in the 3rd.

If we keep winning, which there should be no reason not to, this team is set up to take a great DE that will help an already good rotation. We can all say thanks to Robert Geathers for his time and services over the years and welcome in a MUCH better DE in Montgomery or Okafor.

[BBlesmiley]

Originally Posted by Lolli

Look at value. Which RB, Safety or OLB is worth the 20th (estimate) pick next year?

There are barely any RBs worth a pick in the 2nd round this year let alone the 1st. It would take a miracle in the all star games and the combine for me to change my mind about that one.

If we slide further back, I might think Reid or Vacarro make more sense. Does Mosely translate well into a 4-3 OLB?

Most of our needs vs. available talent this year fit is the late 1st early 2nd round range.

All good points especially on Mosely and the runningback prospects.

[BBlesmiley]

Originally Posted by Stewee28

This is exactly why we should take Sam Montgomery or Okafor if either are there when we pick. They are both top tier DE in this years draft and both are slipping down the board for whatever reason. DE in the first, RB and LB in the second and Safety in the third. There is no reason what so ever to reach for what we need. Gio Bernard is who I would really like to land for a RB, but he wont go till the second round. LBs are all over the place in the second round and Rambo would be a great pick up for a safety in the 3rd.

If we keep winning, which there should be no reason not to, this team is set up to take a great DE that will help an already good rotation. We can all say thanks to Robert Geathers for his time and services over the years and welcome in a MUCH better DE in Montgomery or Okafor.

It seems like there are maybe 4 top tier safeties that can play both SS & FS in my opinion and they are:Reid,Vaccaro, Jefferson and Thomas. I may be wrong but I'm not totally sold on Rambo making that transition even though hes physically around the same size. I wouldn't cry if we drafted him because hes better than any of our current guys but if its Georgia then I'd prefer Williams who I think doesn't get enough credit for his ballskills. I really wish we could draft two of them this year because the class is so deep.lol. Which 2 would you take?

[Bech72]

I see MJ as a must sign, might not jive with what others think. He is a guy that plays his butt off and that stays healthy. He has improved each year so I'm not too concerned that his best year came in a contract year, I believe he is just reaching his immense potential. This is a guy that we will regret losing very much if we let him walk. Several reasons for that:

1. DE becomes a pressing need. The guy is a starter and we would have to draft his replacement with one of our first three picks. That means we don't get to address one of our existing needs, the top 3 being RB, S, LB.

2. If this isn't a fluke and he has just steadily improved, then we could be giving up a guy that will average double digit sacks for the next 4-6 seasons; he'll only be 26 next season, so he has a lot of good years left in him.

3. He's a homegrown guy and a guy that we have turned into a potential double digit sacker. We took a risk and he has more than paid off.

4. We'll have plenty of money to pay him; even if Geathers returns, his salary won't be anywhere near what it is now, so there will be some free money to pay MJ.


All that said, the only thing that worries me is that a big contract for MJ and the impending mega-deal Geno will get means that Dunlap could be a one contract and done guy here. I know he hasn't racked up stats, but our D-line is noticeably better with him in the lineup; he's one of those guys that makes the other players on the line better.

In the end, I would prefer to keep the Fischer Price package together (MJ, Geno, Dunlap) and use a 3rd or 4th rounder for depth purposes.

All bets are off of course if a can't miss talent drops; then you take the BPA and worry about money issues later on. As of now though, I don't see DE as a 1st Round value; don't really want one in 2 either.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by Bech72

I see MJ as a must sign, might not jive with what others think. He is a guy that plays his butt off and that stays healthy. He has improved each year so I'm not too concerned that his best year came in a contract year, I believe he is just reaching his immense potential. This is a guy that we will regret losing very much if we let him walk. Several reasons for that:

1. DE becomes a pressing need. The guy is a starter and we would have to draft his replacement with one of our first three picks. That means we don't get to address one of our existing needs, the top 3 being RB, S, LB.

2. If this isn't a fluke and he has just steadily improved, then we could be giving up a guy that will average double digit sacks for the next 4-6 seasons; he'll only be 26 next season, so he has a lot of good years left in him.

3. He's a homegrown guy and a guy that we have turned into a potential double digit sacker. We took a risk and he has more than paid off.

4. We'll have plenty of money to pay him; even if Geathers returns, his salary won't be anywhere near what it is now, so there will be some free money to pay MJ.


All that said, the only thing that worries me is that a big contract for MJ and the impending mega-deal Geno will get means that Dunlap could be a one contract and done guy here. I know he hasn't racked up stats, but our D-line is noticeably better with him in the lineup; he's one of those guys that makes the other players on the line better.

In the end, I would prefer to keep the Fischer Price package together (MJ, Geno, Dunlap) and use a 3rd or 4th rounder for depth purposes.

All bets are off of course if a can't miss talent drops; then you take the BPA and worry about money issues later on. As of now though, I don't see DE as a 1st Round value; don't really want one in 2 either.

That's my big problem. I don't know if he has really improved his game THAT much or if he has been benefiting from Geno having an all-time type season.

He has been flat out unimpressive at times. He disappears from games. He goes from a stud to dud in a week. I don't see him take over games. Is he worth the 11 million some are saying he is? I am not too sure about that. I'd go in the 5-9 range at best. If he reverts back to how he has been in the past, we have another awful contract on a DE who isn't a premier pass rusher.

[pulses]

give MJ a 4 and 30 deal with about 12 guaranteed. Not sure I would wanna risk anymore than that.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by pulses

give MJ a 4 and 30 deal with about 12 guaranteed. Not sure I would wanna risk anymore than that.

sounds fair.
Id go high enough for 8 yearly. (base+bonus)

[eliminate08]

Originally Posted by hacker

DE is not a position of weakness on this team. There are so many other areas where we truly need help I just don't get wanting to draft a DE in Rd 1. Sure, a guy that gets us 10 sacks is grea, but not if he is taking over a position where the present guy can get us 6-7. We need more def backfield help at CB and especially at Safety. We need alot of RB help, we can use 2-3 LBers, especially one or two that cna be impact players. If we take a DE in RD 1, I think it's a big mistake. I hope we go like we did with Spoikes and Simmons with our first 2 picks and then foillow that with a RB and a Safety. No to D-linemen!

You can never have enough pass rush especially in what is becoming a pass happy league.

If there is a very good DE there in the first round and some of my guys are gone i take the player that helps my team the most.

A pass rush is a secondary's best friend.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by eliminate08

You can never have enough pass rush especially in what is becoming a pass happy league.

If there is a very good DE there in the first round and some of my guys are gone i take the player that helps my team the most.

A pass rush is a secondary's best friend.

IMO we have gotten a fair amount of coverage sacks this year.

[eliminate08]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

IMO we have gotten a fair amount of coverage sacks this year.

Which means we can definately improve.

[Shady]

As far as DEs go, I like Dion Jordan out of Oregon.

1. Mosley SAM
2A. Jordan, DE
2B. Rambo S

or

1. Jordan DE
2A. C. Thomas SAM
2B. Rambo S

Would be a great start to the draft.

[eliminate08]

Originally Posted by Shady

As far as DEs go, I like Dion Jordan out of Oregon.

1. Mosley SAM
2A. Jordan, DE
2B. Rambo S

or

1. Jordan DE
2A. C. Thomas SAM
2B. Rambo S

Would be a great start to the draft.

Would love to see that draft

Then get an explosive RB in the 3rd like Barner or Gilleslee.

[Lolli]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

He is not 11 million dollars a year good

Do not forget that the cap is about to increase dramatically in 2014 due to the new TV contracts. The increase may be as much as 50%. In 2 years we may be thinking that 11 million bones was a steal.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by Lolli

Do not forget that the cap is about to increase dramatically in 2014 due to the new TV contracts. The increase may be as much as 50%. In 2 years we may be thinking that 11 million bones was a steal.

Or we sit there punching ourselves in the face wondering why we spent 11 million a year on a guy who has had 1 year of real production.

[Lolli]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

Or we sit there punching ourselves in the face wondering why we spent 11 million a year on a guy who has had 1 year of real production.

That was funny.

I have not done any research to add $.02 to what I think MJ's value is. I just have a haunting suspicion that if MB is still around, he is going to have a hard time dealing with a new payroll scale.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by Lolli

That was funny.

I have not done any research to add $.02 to what I think MJ's value is. I just have a haunting suspicion that if MB is still around, he is going to have a hard time dealing with a new payroll scale.

MJ is young enough at 25 he shouldn't look for his huge deal. 3-4 years. under 5-8 per. Huge pay increase for him and short enough if he has a few more 10+ sack years he can break bank by age 28.

[Lolli]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

MJ is young enough at 25 he shouldn't look for his huge deal. 3-4 years. under 5-8 per. Huge pay increase for him and short enough if he has a few more 10+ sack years he can break bank by age 28.

I just checked out this site:

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/defensive-end/

I agree with your numbers, $8 mill would be more than generous. The FO is not scared of incentive based contracts. $6 m with the ability to make $7 - 8 sounds fair.

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by Lolli

I just checked out this site:

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/defensive-end/

I agree with your numbers, $8 mill would be more than generous. The FO is not scared of incentive based contracts. $6 m with the ability to make $7 - 8 sounds fair.

5-6 base, 2-3 bonus.
That's a huge pay increase for him and like I said, gives him a shot to land the big one in a few years.