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  #26  
Old 12-10-2012, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by Hammerthis View Post
Yep, that's really good Shake n Blake. With this teams current players, just think of what our QB numbers would be if we had a better QB than Dalton. I mean, even you realize a QB's numbers are made in conjunction with his WR's right? At least that's what P. Manning said.
Lol. This should be fun. Who do you suggest we bring in that would put up better numbers here than Dalton? (With this current group of receivers)

Also, just for fun, Dalton is 12th in passer rating. Of the QBs ranked better than him, how many of those have a worse group of receivers?
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  #27  
Old 12-10-2012, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Some are just intelligent to understand that he is a second year player and some parts of his game are not going to be that of an 8 year veteran.
Intelligent person, go back and read the message. The point was this: No matter how good a QB becomes (When the light cones on) a SB may not be a part of his portfolio when he retires. For proof look no further than Dan Marino.
Winning depends on the teams performance as a whole. End of story...
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  #28  
Old 12-10-2012, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by HellMarine View Post
Here's the thing.

Dalton is only in his second year. Now I know he's thrown over 40 TDs in those two years and has his team in playoff contention for he second year in a row and it makes him seem like he's been doing this forever, but he hasn't been. Quarterback transition from college to the NFL is the biggest learning curve in the game, and Dalton has done an absolutely wonderful job, but he is still learning. The guy came from TCU, and he is still seeing and experiencing things that he has never had to experience before. As time goes by, the interceptions will slow down, and you'll begin to see him stepping up and throwing darts down the field instead of running out. He's going to learn, and the Bengals have their franchise QB.
Agree! hope we're right
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  #29  
Old 12-10-2012, 04:58 PM
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bengals Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
Dalton is an above average NFL QB. He needs good pass blocking and good WR play to excel.

The loss of Sanu really hurts in the Red Zone. Sanu's big strength was his hands...he seldom dropped a pass or tipped it for an interception.
I would say average, below average when the pressure is on.
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  #30  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by bLEEdOrangeandBlack View Post
Before you all get butt hurt, I am just pointing out what ive noticed since Andy Dalton has been in the league. I am happy with him as our quarterback but am also objective and realistic. If you all dont have NFL rewind then youre missing out. You can really scrutinise and pinpoint weaknesses and strengths. Dalton is great with quick throws, but anytime he has to stand tall in the pocket and let the routes develop he gets happy feet and runs out if the pocket when he thinks there is pressure. But here is the kicker...THERE IS NONE!!!! And he doesnt step up in the pocket for maximum view. He throws way too much on his back foot and i cant count how many times he has missed a wide open man. If we are ever gonna be a legitimate superbowl contender he is gonna need to fix this. The loss today was definately on the receivers for dropping so many balls, especially green. Btw Hawkins is probably gonna be better than welker in the future and Geno deserves the most money of any Bengal on the roster...period
I know what you're talking about, but I actually think he's gotten better in that regard. Sometimes he still flushes too early, but I've also seen him get better at scrambling at the right time and making good decisions when doing so. Whether it's tucking and running for whatever he can get, throwing it away, or even completing a pass. He's improving in this area and so strong in just about every other facet that it seems even more nitpicky to me than previously to over dramatize it.
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  #31  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

Dalton is a young QB, and has done extremely well this year, along with last.

You have to realize that Dalton plays in a WCO. Which is more about passing on the run. Which Dalton does. Also, I found it kind of ironic that Dalton struggled a bit in the pocket this week with Cook in, rather than the last few weeks.

I just don't understand why you put Cook in that quickly. But anyway.

Dalton has pocket presence. And also, some of those sacks were actually smart plays by him, because he wanted to help run down the clock.
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  #32  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by THEBURG View Post
I would say average, below average when the pressure is on.
Are you blind? Dalton is clearly in the upper tier of QBs. Explain your statement please
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  #33  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

I could take any QB in the league and nit pick some things I don't like about him. Fact is, there is a group of people who will never like Dalton, no matter how much success he has.

It probably has something to do with the fact that he was only a 2nd round pick that didn't come from a football powerhouse. He's also on the small side and doesn't pack a cannon.

People that didn't like Dalton when we drafted him will probably always come up with ways to discredit his success. They will exaggerate his issues and attribute all his success to AJ Green.

I have a feeling this will go on for as long as Dalton is here. Dalton is to Cincy what McNabb was to Philly.
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  #34  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Lol. This should be fun. Who do you suggest we bring in that would put up better numbers here than Dalton? (With this current group of receivers)

Also, just for fun, Dalton is 12th in passer rating. Of the QBs ranked better than him, how many of those have a worse group of receivers?
No disrespect to Dalton but he is what he is. Suggestions for another QB is out of the question because there are no better QB on the streets or PS's than Dalton. We're left with "Wishing and hoping for a better QB in the years to come." Even you wish for better things right? That's what a lot of us are doing with our QB position.
Yes, I know you're death cry is "But look at his numbers!"
This is a great offensive team and with this defense we should put up 40 points are more per game.
Please don't take this as a insult to Dalton, it's just that I see him with limited room for growth. Athletic evaluation is part of what I do for a living.
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  #35  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:31 PM
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bengals Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by savagehenry54 View Post
I know what you're talking about, but I actually think he's gotten better in that regard. Sometimes he still flushes too early, but I've also seen him get better at scrambling at the right time and making good decisions when doing so. Whether it's tucking and running for whatever he can get, throwing it away, or even completing a pass. He's improving in this area and so strong in just about every other facet that it seems even more nitpicky to me than previously to over dramatize it.
I WILL love andy dalton when he wins the superbowl. until then, he is just the bengals qb. boomer was a good qb, but never one the big one.thats all i want,is a super bowl win. its been 44 years and we still do not have a ring. the stoolers have been in 10 super bowls and won 6 of them. think about that. what is it they are doing we aren't? its having a great coaching staff and a great qb. period.andrew luck is going to the playoffs this year.are we?who knows.i noticed something about dalton the other day. when the team was coming out of the tunnel,he was leading the team, and when he put his hands up to pump the air as he was running out, it came across as real real phony like he was just doing it because he thought he should. maybe i am being too picky, but it didn't look good. did anyone else see that? i don't think he likes the idea of being the man. he just wants to play. to go to the next level, you have to LEAD AND DO YOUR JOB, DUDE!!!
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  #36  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

Living in Upstate NY, I watch a lot of Giants games... and IMO Andy reminds me a lot of Eli Manning. And by that, I mean he reminds me of Eli Manning now, not Eli Manning in his second year.

Both Eli and Andy have a tendency to throw off their back foot and sense pressure when it isn't there. Both have a tendency to look like Elite QB's one game, and lost and confused rookies the next.

However: Eli has the better receiver core (for now), a better offensive line, and (most importantly) better coaches.

The biggest difference is that Andy never has that distraught, Downs Syndrome face Eli always has when he makes a mistake. Andy is usually gritting his teeth and is frustrated with himself for doing something negative when he knows better. To me, that's very encouraging

If Eli Manning and Trent Dilfer can win a Super Bowl, than just about anyone can. It's all about having the right pieces in place, and we are still a few pieces away from that.
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  #37  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:36 PM
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bengals Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by Hammerthis View Post
Intelligent person, go back and read the message. The point was this: No matter how good a QB becomes (When the light cones on) a SB may not be a part of his portfolio when he retires. For proof look no further than Dan Marino.
Winning depends on the teams performance as a whole. End of story...
YOU guys are right, i am being way too picky about our qb. i will leave my final opinion about him until he has 3 years in, although big ben won his 1st ring in year two and he was in our own backyard at miami.dalton is surrounded by great talent. can he lead them is my big question.
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  #38  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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No disrespect to Dalton but he is what he is. Suggestions for another QB is out of the question because there are no better QB on the streets or PS's than Dalton. We're left with "Wishing and hoping for a better QB in the years to come." Even you wish for better things right? That's what a lot of us are doing with our QB position.
Yes, I know you're death cry is "But look at his numbers!"
This is a great offensive team and with this defense we should put up 40 points are more per game.
Please don't take this as a insult to Dalton, it's just that I see him with limited room for growth. Athletic evaluation is part of what I do for a living.
I point out the numbers because numbers aren't biased and they don't lie. 30 tds + 63.2% is good bro. You can't argue that. It would also be silly to argue that Dalton has any reliable receivers outside of AJ Green.

As for replacing Dalton, I wasn't talking about right now. Plenty of free agents will be available next year, plus we could draft one. Who do you suggest would be an improvement?

Btw, since athletic evaluation is your job, why don't you give us a full run down on why you think Dalton has no room for growth. Seeing how the few flaws Dalton has seem to be mental, do you think Dalton is mentally incapable of working on his flaws?
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  #39  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Dalton is a solid, but not great QB. Looks like what a lot of us expected when we drafted him. Someone who won't lose you games, but who you don't want to have to rely on him to win them either.

There's nothing wrong with leaving the pocket, the problem is he doesn't seem to be able to keep his eyes downfield. If he feels any sort of pressure he loses focus downfield and by doing so he pretty much eliminated his options. If he does throw the ball at the point it is a high/jump ball to a player on the sideline. While in a way this is smart (minimizes chances of an interception) I noticed a least a couple of plays yesterday where he missed a wide open player over the middle and instead threw to a covered player on the sideline - simply because when he starts moving he stops looking anywhere but the sideline.
Agreed.

Heck, on those rollouts he had guys open for short yardage which would've been better than no gain. Maybe he doesn't trust himself throwing it on the run. Or maybe there was a DB closer than what I could tell from watching on TV.

As for the drops by the WRs, man a lot of balls that were caught were thrown off target. If I were a coach, I'd put Andy through some accuracy and ball placement drills this week.

And yeah, he is a second year QB. I'm not calling for his head, but I would like to see him work on this stuff. And his deep ball.
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  #40  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:01 PM
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  #41  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by bLEEdOrangeandBlack View Post
Before you all get butt hurt, I am just pointing out what ive noticed since Andy Dalton has been in the league. I am happy with him as our quarterback but am also objective and realistic. If you all dont have NFL rewind then youre missing out. You can really scrutinise and pinpoint weaknesses and strengths. Dalton is great with quick throws, but anytime he has to stand tall in the pocket and let the routes develop he gets happy feet and runs out if the pocket when he thinks there is pressure. But here is the kicker...THERE IS NONE!!!! And he doesnt step up in the pocket for maximum view. He throws way too much on his back foot and i cant count how many times he has missed a wide open man. If we are ever gonna be a legitimate superbowl contender he is gonna need to fix this. The loss today was definately on the receivers for dropping so many balls, especially green. Btw Hawkins is probably gonna be better than welker in the future and Geno deserves the most money of any Bengal on the roster...period
Good points!
The high end zone angle is the only way to have any real understanding of the run game, OL blocking and D-line play. The normal side-line angle is useless.
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  #42  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:52 PM
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bengals Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by Housh View Post
Are you blind? Dalton is clearly in the upper tier of QBs. Explain your statement please
You wouldn't understand, you are blind to the fact that he has flaws, none that maybe can't be worked out, but he has them.
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  #43  
Old 12-10-2012, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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You wouldn't understand, you are blind to the fact that he has flaws, none that maybe can't be worked out, but he has them.
No one said he didn't but he is still better than most of the QB's in the NFL.
Which QB's would you take over him for 2012 and beyond? (I will list the obvious ones first)
  • Peyton Manning
  • Tom Brady
  • Aaron Rodgers
  • Drew Brees
  • Andrew Luck
  • Eli Manning
  • Matt Ryan
  • Matt Schaub
  • Ben Rapistberger
  • Joe Flacco
  • Phillip Rivers
  • Ryan Fitzpatrick
  • Mark Sanchez
  • RG3
  • Carson Palmer
  • Jake Locker
  • Chad Henne/Blaine Gabbert
  • Cam Newton
  • Brandon Weeden
  • Russel Wilson
  • Colin Kaepernick/Alex Smith
  • Tony Romo
  • Josh Freeman
  • Jay Cutler
  • Matt Stafford
  • Christian Ponder
  • Brady Quinn/Matt Cassel
  • Sam Bradford
  • John Skelton/Kevin Kolb
  • Nick Foles/Mike Vick
  • Ryan Tannehill
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  #44  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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I point out the numbers because numbers aren't biased and they don't lie. 30 tds + 63.2% is good bro. You can't argue that. It would also be silly to argue that Dalton has any reliable receivers outside of AJ Green.

As for replacing Dalton, I wasn't talking about right now. Plenty of free agents will be available next year, plus we could draft one. Who do you suggest would be an improvement?

Btw, since athletic evaluation is your job, why don't you give us a full run down on why you think Dalton has no room for growth. Seeing how the few flaws Dalton has seem to be mental, do you think Dalton is mentally incapable of working on his flaws?
Just this, "Accuracy when going deep!" We're closing in on year # 2 for Andy and it is what it is. He may cut down on his INT's in year #3 but I don't see him improving that much on the deep ball. Why? Because the biggest part of accuracy going deep in the NFL is sufficient VELOCITY. Some of the CB's in the NFL have world class speed.
Guy's will say "Wow, did you see how far he thru that ball? That was awesome!" But I gaurantee you the QB coach was looking at how LONG it took to get there. A QBs velocity is what it is. It Ain't gonna change.
But, I feel we can win with Andy just not dominate like K. Anderson.
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  #45  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

I noticed Ken Anderson's name brought up at times. I am big fan of Kenny, have a pic of him and me when I was 4 at a training camp.

But I wonder how many fans realize that in Kenny's 8th season which was 1978, he only had 10 TDs to 22 intros. And his 2nd year in he had 7 tds to 7 intros. However his only really star-studded year was in 1981, when he had 3700+ yards, 29 tds, and 10 intros. He also had 6 years there where he didn't throw more td's than intros. It was a different era, but a QB today wouldnt be starting if had 6 years of more or same amount of intros to TDs.

As I said I am a big Kenny fan, but he quite a few years that were quite blahish.
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  #46  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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I have NFL rewind and it's worth every penny. You're 100% correct! However you broke the Board Gods rule #1. Never say anything negative about Andy.
Their reasoning is this: In 3 years a light will come on inside Andy's head and "PRESTO, we'll win a SB." Here's their proof: T. Brady, A. Rogers, Payton and Eli Manning and a few others won SB's when the lights in their heads came on. See?
Dan Marino simply had a bad light bulb.
What an idiotic post.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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As for the drops by the WRs, man a lot of balls that were caught were thrown off target. If I were a coach, I'd put Andy through some accuracy and ball placement drills this week.
Um, they also dropped a lot of big passes. Hit them right in the hands.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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You wouldn't understand, you are blind to the fact that he has flaws, none that maybe can't be worked out, but he has them.
Just as you may never understand what he has accomplished in less than 2 years. Still tons of room to grow and needed improvement, but he knows that as well as anyone.
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  #49  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Just this, "Accuracy when going deep!" We're closing in on year # 2 for Andy and it is what it is. He may cut down on his INT's in year #3 but I don't see him improving that much on the deep ball. Why? Because the biggest part of accuracy going deep in the NFL is sufficient VELOCITY. Some of the CB's in the NFL have world class speed.
Guy's will say "Wow, did you see how far he thru that ball? That was awesome!" But I gaurantee you the QB coach was looking at how LONG it took to get there. A QBs velocity is what it is. It Ain't gonna change.
But, I feel we can win with Andy just not dominate like K. Anderson.
Lets clear up the misconception that Andy isn't accurate on deep passes. Here's an article from PFF that shows deep ball statistics for all passers through the first 6 games of last year. I couldn't find anything more recent, but it will give you a general idea of how most NFL QB's perform when it comes to the deep pass.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-deep-passing/

28 of the QBs listed (including Rodgers, Eli, Brady, Rapist and others) completed less than half of their deep throws. Andy's 45% rate was rather normal, perhaps solid compared to the others.

The only reason people think there is a problem with Andy's deep passes is because everyone has scrutinized his arm strength so much. They're seeing a problem that isn't there.
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  #50  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Lets clear up the misconception that Andy isn't accurate on deep passes. Here's an article from PFF that shows deep ball statistics for all passers through the first 6 games of last year. I couldn't find anything more recent, but it will give you a general idea of how most NFL QB's perform when it comes to the deep pass.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-deep-passing/

28 of the QBs listed (including Rodgers, Eli, Brady, Rapist and others) completed less than half of their deep throws. Andy's 45% rate was rather normal, perhaps solid compared to the others.

The only reason people think there is a problem with Andy's deep passes is because everyone has scrutinized his arm strength so much. They're seeing a problem that isn't there.
Careful, Blake - if you keep arguing with him, he'll start blowing up your profile wall. I seriously have like 40 deleted messages from that maniac just about Jordan Shipley's knee being shredded.
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