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  #51  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

Some people here have a ridiculous obsession with deep ball velocity as if it is the most important characteristic of a QB when in reality it is close to the least important. Again look at the QB Dalton was compared most to by the scouts - Drew Brees.

Brees was and is not known for having an atomic cannon but rather for being a smart QB who got stronger over time. He's also probably going to the HoF. Doesn't mean Andy is but so far the career parallels are there. Dalton right now has a lot of the characteristics of a young Brees.

Also, this offense is hardly "loaded". It has one good WR (AJ). The other WRs are either unproven and known for the dropsies or gadget players. The TE has fumblitis, drops balls and commits stupid penalties - he also does make some good plays but overall he isn't all that. We have no speed RB and our OL is erratic - good in patches then has spurts of giving up pressure inside. So let's dispense with the "40 pts per game" nonsense - the parts are not there yet.
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  #52  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

What is NFL rewind?
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  #53  
Old 12-10-2012, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by bLEEdOrangeandBlack View Post
Before you all get butt hurt, I am just pointing out what ive noticed since Andy Dalton has been in the league. I am happy with him as our quarterback but am also objective and realistic. If you all dont have NFL rewind then youre missing out. You can really scrutinise and pinpoint weaknesses and strengths. Dalton is great with quick throws, but anytime he has to stand tall in the pocket and let the routes develop he gets happy feet and runs out if the pocket when he thinks there is pressure. But here is the kicker...THERE IS NONE!!!! And he doesnt step up in the pocket for maximum view. He throws way too much on his back foot and i cant count how many times he has missed a wide open man. If we are ever gonna be a legitimate superbowl contender he is gonna need to fix this. The loss today was definately on the receivers for dropping so many balls, especially green. Btw Hawkins is probably gonna be better than welker in the future and Geno deserves the most money of any Bengal on the roster...period


I've been saying that all along. Andy needs to relax. His drop back stance is very tense and straight up. If he would let his body relax and step into his throws he wouldn't throw the ball high like he's doing. He needs to watch Tom Brady and watch how relaxed he is in the pocket... Andy shouldn't study Brees, he should study Peyton Manning, Brady, & Rodgers...Watch how Rodgers feels the pocket presence, Watch how Peyton picks apart a D & watch how relaxed Brady is and how he plays.
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  #54  
Old 12-10-2012, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

[quote=Shake n Blake;2720607]Lets clear up the misconception that Andy isn't accurate on deep passes. Here's an article from PFF that shows deep ball statistics for all passers through the first 6 games of last year. I couldn't find anything more recent, but it will give you a general idea of how most NFL QB's perform when it comes to the deep pass.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-deep-passing/28 of the QBs listed (including Rodgers, Eli, Brady, Rapist and others) completed less than half of their deep throws. Andy's 45% rate was rather normal, perhaps solid compared to the others. The only reason people think there is a problem with Andy's deep passes is because everyone has scrutinized his arm strength so much. They're seeing a problem that isn't

Give us either of those QBs you mention and this team would probably be 11-2 right now. I judge from watching the QB and knowing what to look for. Looking for the stat sheet after the game is for fans who like to hype their guy.
Again, we can win with Dalton but we'll never dominate the league offensively with him. He's a guy with limited potential. Period. JMHO he's never going to be what you think he is. Put him on a lesser team and they would be lucky to win 4 games.
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  #55  
Old 12-10-2012, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

[quote=Hammerthis;2720748]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Lets clear up the misconception that Andy isn't accurate on deep passes. Here's an article from PFF that shows deep ball statistics for all passers through the first 6 games of last year. I couldn't find anything more recent, but it will give you a general idea of how most NFL QB's perform when it comes to the deep pass.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-deep-passing/28 of the QBs listed (including Rodgers, Eli, Brady, Rapist and others) completed less than half of their deep throws. Andy's 45% rate was rather normal, perhaps solid compared to the others. The only reason people think there is a problem with Andy's deep passes is because everyone has scrutinized his arm strength so much. They're seeing a problem that isn't

Give us either of those QBs you mention and this team would probably be 11-2 right now. I judge from watching the QB and knowing what to look for. Looking for the stat sheet after the game is for fans who like to hype their guy.
Again, we can win with Dalton but we'll never dominate the league offensively with him. He's a guy with limited potential. Period. JMHO he's never going to be what you think he is. Put him on a lesser team and they would be lucky to win 4 games.
Give the Cowboys Dalton and they would probably 11- 2 right now also.
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  #56  
Old 12-10-2012, 11:52 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

[quote=Texas 2 Cinci;2720750][quote=Hammerthis;2720748]

Give

Last edited by Hammerthis; 12-11-2012 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Wrong location
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  #57  
Old 12-10-2012, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

[QUOTE=Texas 2 Cinci;2720750

Give

Last edited by Hammerthis; 12-11-2012 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Error
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  #58  
Old 12-11-2012, 01:35 AM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Dalton is still on pace to throw for almost 4000 yards and 30 tds. That would be the 2nd most productive season by a Bengals QB in team history. In his 2nd season! Sure, he has some things he needs to work on, but IMO, that makes him even more promising. He's playing extremely well and we have yet to see the best of him.

He is on pace for 17 picks for the season. That's not good, but it's not NEARLY the problem people make it out to be. Drew Brees is on pace for 22 picks (again), and Eli Manning had 25 a couple years ago. Palmer had 20 here. Twice. Just get him a good #2 in the offseason, and lets go from there.

Btw, Lap was just on NFL network and said that our receivers had 8 drops yesterday. Give Andy half of those, and he went 24 of 33 with 2 tds in a win. Would we even be discussing Andy if that had happened?
Hey man. Don't knock these threads. It allows me to see exactly who pays attention and knows what they're watching and who's just pulling *** out of their ***es and flinging it against the wall.
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  #59  
Old 12-11-2012, 02:50 AM
bLEEdOrangeandBlack bLEEdOrangeandBlack is offline
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by hoosierbengal View Post
What is NFL rewind?
NFL. Rewind is on the nfl website under game pass. You have to purchase it for like 60 bucks but you get to watch everygame any time you want and can fast forward and rewind as you please. Its in HD most of the time and you can keep rewinding and pinpoint who is fukkin up out there
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  #60  
Old 12-11-2012, 05:01 AM
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bengals Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by Hammerthis View Post
Intelligent person, go back and read the message. The point was this: No matter how good a QB becomes (When the light cones on) a SB may not be a part of his portfolio when he retires. For proof look no further than Dan Marino.
Winning depends on the teams performance as a whole. End of story...
You are absolutely correct it depends on the team. Therefore singling out Dalton in an attempt to downgrade his performance as this thread does is ludicrous..

I wonder why there are no threads downgrading the play of AJ Green. He blatantly dropped a pass that was a no doubt TD and had another blatant drop that would have kept a drive alive. Yet he is not being singled out.

Interesting don't you think? As a 1st RD pick do you not think expectations should be loftier for him?
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  #61  
Old 12-11-2012, 07:37 AM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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You are absolutely correct it depends on the team. Therefore singling out Dalton in an attempt to downgrade his performance as this thread does is ludicrous..

I wonder why there are no threads downgrading the play of AJ Green. He blatantly dropped a pass that was a no doubt TD and had another blatant drop that would have kept a drive alive. Yet he is not being singled out.

Interesting don't you think? As a 1st RD pick do you not think expectations should be loftier for him?
AJ is what he is a "Future HOF" who played one of his worst games against the Cowboys IMHO. That said, I don't think he need "Lobbyist like fans" to sell his worth.
However, if you think the Cowboy game is more of a representatation of what AJ is all about, please go on record now and state it. OSUfan, single him out for what you think he really is.

Last edited by Hammerthis; 12-11-2012 at 07:44 AM. Reason: Misspell
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  #62  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:04 AM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

Disregard

Last edited by Hammerthis; 12-12-2012 at 01:00 AM. Reason: I never made this statement
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  #63  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:08 AM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

[quote=texas 2 cinci;2720750

give the cowboys dalton and they would probably 11- 2 right now also.[/quote]

idts.
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  #64  
Old 12-11-2012, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by HellMarine View Post
Here's the thing.

Dalton is only in his second year. Now I know he's thrown over 40 TDs in those two years and has his team in playoff contention for he second year in a row and it makes him seem like he's been doing this forever, but he hasn't been. Quarterback transition from college to the NFL is the biggest learning curve in the game, and Dalton has done an absolutely wonderful job, but he is still learning. The guy came from TCU, and he is still seeing and experiencing things that he has never had to experience before. As time goes by, the interceptions will slow down, and you'll begin to see him stepping up and throwing darts down the field instead of running out. He's going to learn, and the Bengals have their franchise QB.
This x 10. And I'll add that I've never seen a more unappreciative and impatient take on a 2nd year QB than that of some Bengals fans on these boards. At least while he's still learning the NFL game (which he is, he hasn't even completed his 2nd year in the NFL) he has the ability to escape the pocket. Dalton is a great athlete, much better than critics gave him credit for going into the draft. As HellMarine stated, we indeed have our franchise QB, so pipe down, doubters.
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  #65  
Old 12-11-2012, 12:42 PM
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bengals Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by berserkerone88 View Post
No one said he didn't but he is still better than most of the QB's in the NFL.
Which QB's would you take over him for 2012 and beyond? (I will list the obvious ones first)
  • Peyton Manning
  • Tom Brady
  • Aaron Rodgers
  • Drew Brees
  • Andrew Luck
  • Eli Manning
  • Matt Ryan
  • Matt Schaub
  • Ben Rapistberger
  • Joe Flacco
  • Phillip Rivers
  • Ryan Fitzpatrick
  • Mark Sanchez
  • RG3
  • Carson Palmer
  • Jake Locker
  • Chad Henne/Blaine Gabbert
  • Cam Newton
  • Brandon Weeden
  • Russel Wilson
  • Colin Kaepernick/Alex Smith
  • Tony Romo
  • Josh Freeman
  • Jay Cutler
  • Matt Stafford
  • Christian Ponder
  • Brady Quinn/Matt Cassel
  • Sam Bradford
  • John Skelton/Kevin Kolb
  • Nick Foles/Mike Vick
  • Ryan Tannehill
I counted 12 I would take over him, possibly 15.
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  #66  
Old 12-11-2012, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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I counted 12 I would take over him, possibly 15.
Who
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  #67  
Old 12-11-2012, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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I counted 12 I would take over him, possibly 15.
Please name them...
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  #68  
Old 12-11-2012, 04:41 PM
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Please name them...
I counted 6 for sure with a couple of maybes to get close to 10
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:56 PM
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bengals Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

First off, you don't have to agree, or belittle me, I'm just stating my opinion, I have seen you goad for arguments before on here, so here goes,

the first 10 you have listed, plusRG111, Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Jay Cutler, and Matt Stafford, if you don't agree, thats fine , I don't want to play your little arguing game.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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First off, you don't have to agree, or belittle me, I'm just stating my opinion, I have seen you goad for arguments before on here, so here goes,

the first 10 you have listed, plusRG111, Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Jay Cutler, and Matt Stafford, if you don't agree, thats fine , I don't want to play your little arguing game.
I wouldn't take Flacco, Newton, Russell, Cutler or Stafford over him.
I would probably pass on RG3 because his style of play won't lend to a long career.
Matt Ryan has accomplished pretty much nothing more than Andy has and he has been on better teams.
Schaub is a 2nd rate QB on a decent team.
Cutler and Stafford can't stay healthy or prove to be anything other than turnover machines.

Well you wanted to have a debate and things.
Curious as to why on earth you would pick Russell Wilson
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

Dalton is not perfect, and last year he had to run for his life much more than he should have.

The O line was improving and working as one, and they stuck Cook in and the O line did not do as well.

There are a few QBs I would take right now over Dalton, but they are all old enough, I would take Dalton long term.

If the Refs had not made a bad call on the Jones catch, and if Green had caught the ball that hit him in the hands, we would not be talking about this at all.
(I think Jones was pushed out, before Dalton left the pocket, and it should have been an illegal chuck, or a TD)

This all shows it is a team game, and it takes a team to win. It also shows the QB gets the blame, even when it is not his fault.
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  #72  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by THEBURG View Post
First off, you don't have to agree, or belittle me, I'm just stating my opinion, I have seen you goad for arguments before on here, so here goes,

the first 10 you have listed, plusRG111, Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Jay Cutler, and Matt Stafford, if you don't agree, thats fine , I don't want to play your little arguing game.
Wow just crazy I think I will just watch this debate but I see atleast 4 I wouldn't let near a starting rotation for one thing or another.
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  #73  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by michaelsean View Post
My one complaint is that when he leaves the pocket and rolls right, he very rarely makes completions. For all I know the receivers are doing a bad job of coming back, but it seems whenever he does that we are looking at a throwaway pass.
I agree -- I wonder if the WR's aren't coming back to him but rarely are their big plays that come when he is flushed out. Even Marvin has said this when he refers to unscripted plays.

The second last play on offense against Dallas -it was definitely on the last drive -- he rolled out to his left and threw it over the head of a WR at the sidelines --if you watch the replay you will see a WR crossing about ten yards down the field right in front of Andy that he clearly did not see

I think he is to quick to get rid of the ball and also should look to run a bit more when flushed

hopefully these are areas he will improve upon with age
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  #74  
Old 12-11-2012, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

The thing was last year it was one of his best qualities and now there seems to be some regression. Now he is holding it too long, before it was not long enough. Maybe they need a 3rd clock in the stadium for Andy to know when to throw.
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  #75  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:03 AM
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Default Re: Andy Dalton lacks pocket presence

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Originally Posted by berserkerone88 View Post
I wouldn't take Flacco, Newton, Russell, Cutler or Stafford over him.
I would probably pass on RG3 because his style of play won't lend to a long career.
Matt Ryan has accomplished pretty much nothing more than Andy has and he has been on better teams.
Schaub is a 2nd rate QB on a decent team.
Cutler and Stafford can't stay healthy or prove to be anything other than turnover machines.

Well you wanted to have a debate and things.
Curious as to why on earth you would pick Russell Wilson
IMHO, you don't know what --- you talking about!
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