Reggie Nelson's personal foul call....

[Go Cards]

That play happened directly in front of my seat. What an awesome hit and a horrible official judgement made by throwing the flag. The official that threw the flag from the distance you claim was not a very young man either. Not sure he still sees with clarity. But damn, what a hit.

[bfine32]

Originally Posted by yellowxdiscipline

You dont think that the call deflated the defense in some sort of way?

Originally Posted by rfaulk34

it definitely changed the mentality of the defense.

Nope, D shut them down immediately following that call.


We must look elsewhere to lay blame on this game

[BengaliJack]

Originally Posted by yellowxdiscipline

I think we all can agree that it was a horrendous call. Text book play on how you should engage a defenseless receiver. What I want to know is what action is the league going to take on the ref that threw the flag on that play? The man was 25 yards away from the hit and there is no way in hell he had a good angle or sight of it. My guess is that league will just sweep it under the rug, but I think the **** sucker should be fined and suspended for a few games.

The head coaches need 2 colored flags, a red ones and a blue one. The red one to challenge regular play calls and the blue one to challenge penaltys. There has to be some way to keep these bad calls from affecting the game like this one did.

[bradfritz21]

Originally Posted by BengaliJack

The head coaches need 2 colored flags, a red ones and a blue one. The red one to challenge regular play calls and the blue one to challenge penaltys. There has to be some way to keep these bad calls from affecting the game like this one did.

I agree but that would be difficult because they'd have to draw a line on what could be challenged and what couldn't because so many of them are judgement calls.

They'd also have to make it so you can only challenge to have a penalty overturned because otherwise you'd have coaches challenging for holding calls on every play.

A lot of penalties are also judgement calls that aren't as obvious as Reggie Nelson's perfect hit.

[crispy]

Originally Posted by rfaulk34

It did cause more time to run off the clock and it definitely changed the mentality of the defense. Instead of a roaring crowd and a punt with a fired up team, guys were ****** and had to play D three more downs.

Butterfly effect.

And it did cause them to have to use another timeout to calm Reggie down.

[mars304]

Originally Posted by whodey1302

I wouldn't call it a major turning point. The next four plays were: Incomplete pass, incomplete pass, Reggie Nelson sack, punt.

Terrible call though.

Yeah, a Reggie Nelson interception further down the field and a minute later which kept us from trying to score again before the half.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[yellowxdiscipline]

Originally Posted by bradfritz21

I agree but that would be difficult because they'd have to draw a line on what could be challenged and what couldn't because so many of them are judgement calls.

They'd also have to make it so you can only challenge to have a penalty overturned because otherwise you'd have coaches challenging for holding calls on every play.

A lot of penalties are also judgement calls that aren't as obvious as Reggie Nelson's perfect hit.

All penalties resulting in yardage of 15 yards or more like personal fouls, pass interfence should be reviewable. Those kind of plays can result in big momentum swings for and offense or defense and has a huge impact on the game, just like any score challenge.

[bradfritz21]

Originally Posted by yellowxdiscipline

All penalties resulting in yardage of 15 yards or more like personal fouls, pass interfence should be reviewable. Those kind of plays can result in big momentum swings for and offense or defense and has a huge impact on the game, just like any score challenge.

Some personal fouls and some pass interference calls, maybe, but it has to be obvious and not just a judgement call of "maybe he bumped him too much" or anything like that. I has to be clear-cut like "yeah, he grabbed his shoulder pads and twisted him while the ball was in the air."

Personal fouls could also be reviewed so it's not always the second person that gets caught, but then you run into the problem of does a little shove justify someone throwing a punch?

[rydogg707]

I've been thinking about this a lot. Penalties are judgment calls, and when an official throws a flag, they huddle up and ask each other what they saw. More often than not, I bet you most of them say they didn't see anything, were focused elsewhere on the field, or were in a bad position (poor angle) to see anything clearly. Therefore there can be no confirmation on that one officials judgment. The penalty is left up to one individuals judgment and no one elses.

There needs to be a system in place to challenge that judgment, and get a consensus. Theoretically, when they huddle you have a consensus, because the action, and penalty usually happens around the action of where the ball is.

The problem is, what could the possible solution be? Go back to reviewing all penalties? Prolonging each game to upwards for 4-4.5 hours, maybe even 5? Hire a 2nd crew of officials to watch all the TV monitors for all the feeds from the game and have them buzz down when they think the officials don't have all the information on any given play? Give teams the option to challenge all plays on the field?

Personally, my option is for the latter. Allow all plays to be challengeable. Because of the increase on what is challengeable, increase the number of challenges to 3 total for the game, with the option of getting a 4th challenge, if you successfully win all 3 (if you use them). By the very defintion of a challege, the team, head coach is challenging the judgment of the call, by making them take a closer look at it. How could anyone view this as a bad thing? Isn't the goal of the NFL to decrease the mistakes made by the officials?

For example, on the Nelson hit, clean hit on video, too fast in person, results in a penalty. Marvin would challenge that. The head official would go under the hood and look at all the angles. If he were to come out of the hood confirming the penalty, Marvin would lose the challenge, and he would be exposed for not knowing the core fundamentals of the rules of tackling the ball carrier/receiver. However, if the official comes back and overturns the penalty, Marvin wins the challenge and the play resumes as if the penalty didn’t happen.

I don’t think this would extend the game any, if at all. And it would allow the coaches and team to basically do a live audit of the officials judgment during the game.

However another simpler solution would be to have the booth officials who are supposedly reviewing all scoring and turnover plays… review penalties to see if they agree with the officials on the field. If they don’t, call them into the booth for a quick review to explain what they see that may have been missed on the field.

Who knows if any of this will ever happen the way I want.

But one can hope.

[Bengals fan for years]

Anyone have video of the hit? Game not shown here in Florida.

[yellowxdiscipline]

Originally Posted by rydogg707

I've been thinking about this a lot. Penalties are judgment calls, and when an official throws a flag, they huddle up and ask each other what they saw. More often than not, I bet you most of them say they didn't see anything, were focused elsewhere on the field, or were in a bad position (poor angle) to see anything clearly. Therefore there can be no confirmation on that one officials judgment. The penalty is left up to one individuals judgment and no one elses.

There needs to be a system in place to challenge that judgment, and get a consensus. Theoretically, when they huddle you have a consensus, because the action, and penalty usually happens around the action of where the ball is.

The problem is, what could the possible solution be? Go back to reviewing all penalties? Prolonging each game to upwards for 4-4.5 hours, maybe even 5? Hire a 2nd crew of officials to watch all the TV monitors for all the feeds from the game and have them buzz down when they think the officials don't have all the information on any given play? Give teams the option to challenge all plays on the field?

Personally, my option is for the latter. Allow all plays to be challengeable. Because of the increase on what is challengeable, increase the number of challenges to 3 total for the game, with the option of getting a 4th challenge, if you successfully win all 3 (if you use them). By the very defintion of a challege, the team, head coach is challenging the judgment of the call, by making them take a closer look at it. How could anyone view this as a bad thing? Isn't the goal of the NFL to decrease the mistakes made by the officials?

For example, on the Nelson hit, clean hit on video, too fast in person, results in a penalty. Marvin would challenge that. The head official would go under the hood and look at all the angles. If he were to come out of the hood confirming the penalty, Marvin would lose the challenge, and he would be exposed for not knowing the core fundamentals of the rules of tackling the ball carrier/receiver. However, if the official comes back and overturns the penalty, Marvin wins the challenge and the play resumes as if the penalty didn’t happen.

I don’t think this would extend the game any, if at all. And it would allow the coaches and team to basically do a live audit of the officials judgment during the game.

However another simpler solution would be to have the booth officials who are supposedly reviewing all scoring and turnover plays… review penalties to see if they agree with the officials on the field. If they don’t, call them into the booth for a quick review to explain what they see that may have been missed on the field.

Who knows if any of this will ever happen the way I want.

But one can hope.

Thats exactly why this kind of rule change will never happen.. The league will never question the judgement of the officials no matter how wrong it is.

[mars304]

What about having an official in the booth, which I'm pretty sure they already do, that can veto a refs flag if he was obviously wrong? That way stuff like this doesn't happen and it would restore the integrity of the game.

[rydogg707]

Originally Posted by yellowxdiscipline

Thats exactly why this kind of rule change will never happen.. The league will never question the judgement of the officials no matter how wrong it is.

Yup. And the older I get the more I realize that it may be a waste of time to watch a product in which huge glaring errors are allowed to occur on a regular basis. Do that in a regular job, you get fired, or the company goes under.

[Interceptor]

I wonder how much fun it would be to watch football by letting the game be played the way it was meant to be played? (go back to the 60s and 70s)

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

I wonder how much fun it would be to watch football by letting the game be played the way it was meant to be played? (go back to the 60s and 70s)

That other league.... where gruden came from. the UFL? was like watching good football again

[OSUfan]

I have not read every post so sorry if this has been brought up.

I saw early in the thread that many are stating the call did not have a dramatic effect on the game and I believe there is debate that those feelings are not accurate.

1) How many stating it did not effect the game have ever stated we need a Troy P. Or Ed Reed type player in our secondary? I ask this because I would have to believe that part of their big play ability is their penchant for laying big hits. This energizes a defense and gets in the head of the offense. When that play is called a foul it is a momentum drainer.

2) The calling of the foul on a completely clean hit obviously got members of the defense emotionally riled. Most of all Reggie Nelson. It was to the point that it put Marvin in a position of having to make a choice of taking a time out to get their heads back in the game. The time out accomplished this as the defense stopped them and we forced them to punt.

However, this took away a time out that we could have used later in the game.

3) Dez Bryant did not talk any smack until this call occurred. As soon as that flag was thrown he was energized talking smack and was stirring up Nelson about the flag. Had the foul not been called there could be a case made that Bryant never really gets into the game.

Calls of this nature can absolutely be game changers and to say the do not effect the outcome of a game could be inaccurate.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by whodey21

I can live with that. That call was by no means the only important factor that caused us to lose. Poor clock management, poor play calling, and inability to catch the ball all played a role. My point all along has been that, while not the only factor, that call was one factor.

The dropsies is what killed it. No one is complaining about play calling if AJ catches that sure TD pass plus the several other key drops by receivers that killed drives. Those alone amount to at least four more points, and several more minutes of possessing the ball in a game we lost by one on a last second FG.......The drops were the difference in the game, hands down.

And that's to say nothing of the three dropped ints. That had to be a total of about eight dropped balls by the offense and defense combined. Drop four balls instead of eight and we win and I don't think it even matters which four we hold onto instead of dropping. In a game that close, it would definitely have made all the difference we needed to hang on and win that game.

If we actually did a good job of not letting the ball hit the ground at all, or maybe just once or twice, it's a blowout. We gave it away.

[TheUberHuber]

Welcome to the VAGFL folks. That was a perfect LEGAL hit. I understand helmet to helmet and taking out recievers legs should definetly be called - but throwing a flag cause someone hits a reciever in bounds with the ball too hard? ffffffsssssssssssss

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

The dropsies is what killed it. No one is complaining about play calling if AJ catches that sure TD pass plus the several other key drops by receivers that killed drives. Those alone amount to at least four more points, and several more minutes of possessing the ball in a game we lost by one on a last second FG.......The drops were the difference in the game, hands down.

And that's to say nothing of the three dropped ints. That had to be a total of about eight dropped balls by the offense and defense combined. Drop four balls instead of eight and we win and I don't think it even matters which four we hold onto instead of dropping. In a game that close, it would definitely have made all the difference we needed to hang on and win that game.

If we actually did a good job of not letting the ball hit the ground at all, or maybe just once or twice, it's a blowout. We gave it away.

All facts!

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

The dropsies is what killed it. No one is complaining about play calling if AJ catches that sure TD pass plus the several other key drops by receivers that killed drives. Those alone amount to at least four more points, and several more minutes of possessing the ball in a game we lost by one on a last second FG.......The drops were the difference in the game, hands down.

And that's to say nothing of the three dropped ints. That had to be a total of about eight dropped balls by the offense and defense combined. Drop four balls instead of eight and we win and I don't think it even matters which four we hold onto instead of dropping. In a game that close, it would definitely have made all the difference we needed to hang on and win that game.

If we actually did a good job of not letting the ball hit the ground at all, or maybe just once or twice, it's a blowout. We gave it away.

Agree play calling looked spot on execution wasnt there.

[coachmcneil71]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

I have not read every post so sorry if this has been brought up.

I saw early in the thread that many are stating the call did not have a dramatic effect on the game and I believe there is debate that those feelings are not accurate.

1) How many stating it did not effect the game have ever stated we need a Troy P. Or Ed Reed type player in our secondary? I ask this because I would have to believe that part of their big play ability is their penchant for laying big hits. This energizes a defense and gets in the head of the offense. When that play is called a foul it is a momentum drainer.

2) The calling of the foul on a completely clean hit obviously got members of the defense emotionally riled. Most of all Reggie Nelson. It was to the point that it put Marvin in a position of having to make a choice of taking a time out to get their heads back in the game. The time out accomplished this as the defense stopped them and we forced them to punt.

However, this took away a time out that we could have used later in the game.

3) Dez Bryant did not talk any smack until this call occurred. As soon as that flag was thrown he was energized talking smack and was stirring up Nelson about the flag. Had the foul not been called there could be a case made that Bryant never really gets into the game.

Calls of this nature can absolutely be game changers and to say the do not effect the outcome of a game could be inaccurate.

Without a doubt it was a god awful call and it did have an effect because it allowed Dallas 3 more downs and ate up precious time on the clock. It was not the game changer though..imo
The drops by the wr's and db's and the fact that Gruden abandoned the run cost the team the win.

[whodey1302]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

I have not read every post so sorry if this has been brought up.

I saw early in the thread that many are stating the call did not have a dramatic effect on the game and I believe there is debate that those feelings are not accurate.

1) How many stating it did not effect the game have ever stated we need a Troy P. Or Ed Reed type player in our secondary? I ask this because I would have to believe that part of their big play ability is their penchant for laying big hits. This energizes a defense and gets in the head of the offense. When that play is called a foul it is a momentum drainer.

2) The calling of the foul on a completely clean hit obviously got members of the defense emotionally riled. Most of all Reggie Nelson. It was to the point that it put Marvin in a position of having to make a choice of taking a time out to get their heads back in the game. The time out accomplished this as the defense stopped them and we forced them to punt.

However, this took away a time out that we could have used later in the game.

3) Dez Bryant did not talk any smack until this call occurred. As soon as that flag was thrown he was energized talking smack and was stirring up Nelson about the flag. Had the foul not been called there could be a case made that Bryant never really gets into the game.

Calls of this nature can absolutely be game changers and to say the do not effect the outcome of a game could be inaccurate.

Your first sentence is your problem.

My argument was that the penalty wasn't the "game changer" that some were making it out to be because of the ensuing defensive stand. The penalty only netted the Cowboys 7 yards and about 50 seconds off the clock.

[whodey1302]

Originally Posted by coachmcneil71

Without a doubt it was a god awful call and it did have an effect because it allowed Dallas 3 more downs and ate up precious time on the clock. It was not the game changer though..imo
The drops by the wr's and db's and the fact that Gruden abandoned the run cost the team the win.

It only ate up about 50 seconds.

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by whodey1302

Your first sentence is your problem.

My argument was that the penalty wasn't the "game changer" that some were making it out to be because of the ensuing defensive stand. The penalty only netted the Cowboys 7 yards and about 50 seconds off the clock.

Your problem would be that you are focusing on that series alone as if it effected nothing else within the game. Wrong!

[tcholas]

Originally Posted by Bengals fan for years

Anyone have video of the hit? Game not shown here in Florida.

I sended a PM from the hit