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Old 12-14-2012, 01:52 PM
ODRAB14 ODRAB14 is offline
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Default What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

Let me first start by saying I am a Dalton Fan. I think the guy will end up being a good Bengals QB. Not sure he will be in the upper echelon but he will be alright.. I am still debating whether he will be Jon Kitna or if he can move past Carson Palmer. The fact is the kid was thrown into this situation and so far he is 17-13 as a starter and 0-1 in the playoffs. I do think he has done better this season and he has shown growth but I think last night showed that Dalton, the Offensive Line, receivers and Gruden have a long ways to go. I picked this team to be 8-8 at the start of the season. Watching this team they are exactly that, a young, inconsistent team that is gathering some playmakers. Anyways lets focus on Dalton. Last night once again highlighted the areas he needs help with.

#1- Mechanics- He will live and die by his feet for his entire career. His arm is fine but when you don't have a cannon it all comes down to your feet. Many of Daltons throws end up being high. 90% of the time it is because of poor balance on the setup of his throws. The other 10% is arm angle which many could also blame on his feet. I still think alot of it does center around the fact he really didn't take snaps from under center at TCU, but I still see him have poor footwork on shotgun setups. This is something they have to work on all the time.

#2- Pocket Prescence- Sometimes Andy does well with the pocket. I think this may be the hardest thing he will have to overcome. One is because of height the other is Dalton is so used to getting the ball out in 1.5 seconds he is not used to stepping into pockets. Take last nights game for instance...Sure he got smacked around alot and that would make anyones internal clock speed up, but think about the two fumbles. Go back and watch those two plays. The one with Graham hitting him he has a clear pocket to step into, this creates time and the possibility of the run. Even the other fumble too. Dalton likes to stand at the apex of the pocket and a simple shuffle forward would create alot of time. The TD run was a perfect example of recognition. This would slow down the pass rush plus it takes away alot of exotic perimeter stunts we were seeing last night becuase the inside rush would need to be better. May seem like a simple thing but it could prove to be huge

#3- Pre- Snap Reads and letting the play develop
Pre Snap Reads- Teams know Dalton gets the ball out quick, they know he makes his mind up. Thats why you see safeties, backers and others move right at the snap alot. Dalton has to trust his line to let the play develop. 6 Sacks doesnt help with trust but he has to. Dalton missed a cut throat TD last night because he was hung up on the Greham, Green dual routes and he missed the one on one wit Baby Hawk who had an easy score. He has to step up in the pocket and deliver that throw. He had his read made up which is why he had a hard time coming off to Hawk.
Another Play was a lob pass to the bottom of a screen to Green. Pre snap showed Green one on one but right at the snap their safety left Marvin Jones to be one on one, Jones ran a good route at the top and breezed past the corner, good chance for a lob.

#4- Using his feet, teams are going to edge rush like crazy, he has to step through and run the ball. We got the ball last night up 10-0 with great field position. The ball was at the 40 and it was like 3rd and 15. Dalton rolled right and threw a ball across his body that was batted down. He had 7-10 yards in front of him. In that sitation you take the yardage and take the FG try. it was a very dangerous throw and we missed points.

Let's face it Dalton had a poor game last night. One of his worst in stripes IMO, thats okay..it happens. its how you bounce back that matters. Some of these issues have been persistent with him and this offseason will be big to see how he responds. He can be very very good but he has to improve in these areas. More Oline experience and another receiver to take the shadow off Green would help too.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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Old 12-14-2012, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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Let me first start by saying I am a Dalton Fan. I think the guy will end up being a good Bengals QB. Not sure he will be in the upper echelon but he will be alright.. I am still debating whether he will be Jon Kitna or if he can move past Carson Palmer. The fact is the kid was thrown into this situation and so far he is 17-13 as a starter and 0-1 in the playoffs. I do think he has done better this season and he has shown growth but I think last night showed that Dalton, the Offensive Line, receivers and Gruden have a long ways to go. I picked this team to be 8-8 at the start of the season. Watching this team they are exactly that, a young, inconsistent team that is gathering some playmakers. Anyways lets focus on Dalton. Last night once again highlighted the areas he needs help with.

#1- Mechanics- He will live and die by his feet for his entire career. His arm is fine but when you don't have a cannon it all comes down to your feet. Many of Daltons throws end up being high. 90% of the time it is because of poor balance on the setup of his throws. The other 10% is arm angle which many could also blame on his feet. I still think alot of it does center around the fact he really didn't take snaps from under center at TCU, but I still see him have poor footwork on shotgun setups. This is something they have to work on all the time.

#2- Pocket Prescence- Sometimes Andy does well with the pocket. I think this may be the hardest thing he will have to overcome. One is because of height the other is Dalton is so used to getting the ball out in 1.5 seconds he is not used to stepping into pockets. Take last nights game for instance...Sure he got smacked around alot and that would make anyones internal clock speed up, but think about the two fumbles. Go back and watch those two plays. The one with Graham hitting him he has a clear pocket to step into, this creates time and the possibility of the run. Even the other fumble too. Dalton likes to stand at the apex of the pocket and a simple shuffle forward would create alot of time. The TD run was a perfect example of recognition. This would slow down the pass rush plus it takes away alot of exotic perimeter stunts we were seeing last night becuase the inside rush would need to be better. May seem like a simple thing but it could prove to be huge

#3- Pre- Snap Reads and letting the play develop
Pre Snap Reads- Teams know Dalton gets the ball out quick, they know he makes his mind up. Thats why you see safeties, backers and others move right at the snap alot. Dalton has to trust his line to let the play develop. 6 Sacks doesnt help with trust but he has to. Dalton missed a cut throat TD last night because he was hung up on the Greham, Green dual routes and he missed the one on one wit Baby Hawk who had an easy score. He has to step up in the pocket and deliver that throw. He had his read made up which is why he had a hard time coming off to Hawk.
Another Play was a lob pass to the bottom of a screen to Green. Pre snap showed Green one on one but right at the snap their safety left Marvin Jones to be one on one, Jones ran a good route at the top and breezed past the corner, good chance for a lob.

#4- Using his feet, teams are going to edge rush like crazy, he has to step through and run the ball. We got the ball last night up 10-0 with great field position. The ball was at the 40 and it was like 3rd and 15. Dalton rolled right and threw a ball across his body that was batted down. He had 7-10 yards in front of him. In that sitation you take the yardage and take the FG try. it was a very dangerous throw and we missed points.

Let's face it Dalton had a poor game last night. One of his worst in stripes IMO, thats okay..it happens. its how you bounce back that matters. Some of these issues have been persistent with him and this offseason will be big to see how he responds. He can be very very good but he has to improve in these areas. More Oline experience and another receiver to take the shadow off Green would help too.
Probably one of the best posts I have read in a long time. You hit the nail on the head. Dalton doesn't seem like himself from last year. I was thinking it couldn't be ALL the receivers/lines fault. I have the feeling that a lot of answers are actually already on this team but they are overlooked or aren't utilized.

My worry is this - we have played 14 games and Dalton is still doing the same bad things. Does no one tell it to his face when he messes up? Are they coddling him? Why are the same mistakes being made? He seems to always want to force it into a double or triple covered Green rather than get it to a guy who is open one on one. The thing is, look at that one interception by Hall last game. There was no need of Foles to throw that pass given how the game was going. Think of how many games we lost because of similar INTs by Dalton. Dalton hasn't been a good game manager this year. Sometimes I feel like he doesn't take things seriously enough. Last night was the first time I saw him get frustrated. He will try forcing to a triple covered Green but won't throw one to a wide open other WR. I think Green conceals a lot of Dalton's shortcomings.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

What gets me is the fact that nothing has changed. Where the hell is the coaching? They have plenty of film to help him out. There are no adjustments being made and this situation paints the perfect picture of how our coaching *****!!!
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:13 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

I am also a fan and think that Dalton is in good shape at this point of his career. Unfortunately, I think there is something that will keep him from ever being in the top tier of NFL QBs and that is he doesn't have the great accuracy on throws to the sideline. Last night was another example of this ... a couple of short throws to the sideline were too far to the inside and almost intercepted .. he twice got bailed out by AJ snatching the ball in front of the defender. And, I think most of us would agree (Gruden even said as much in the offseason) that on deep balls the accuracy is often not there ... for example, the throw which sailed wide out of bounds deep versus San Diego when Green had his man beaten down the sideline. Anything he can do to improve that accuracy on throws to the sideline, short and deep throws, is a must.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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I am also a fan and think that Dalton is in good shape at this point of his career. Unfortunately, I think there is something that will keep him from ever being in the top tier of NFL QBs and that is he doesn't have the great accuracy on throws to the sideline. Last night was another example of this ... a couple of short throws to the sideline were too far to the inside and almost intercepted .. he twice got bailed out by AJ snatching the ball in front of the defender. And, I think most of us would agree (Gruden even said as much in the offseason) that on deep balls the accuracy is often not there ... for example, the throw which sailed wide out of bounds deep versus San Diego when Green had his man beaten down the sideline. Anything he can do to improve that accuracy on throws to the sideline, short and deep throws, is a must.

I agree....Once again I truly believe alot of this comes down to footwork. Yes he bulked up and yes he has more zip but it is all about your feet. I played the position, I've coached it, it is all about the feet and driving the throw...

Many of you also said the coaching, I gurantee they are coaching him like crazy. Most everything in sports is a creature of habit... When you get in bad times you resort back to bad habits. Like most of amatuer golfers we get going good but then we resort back and post a snowman. Playing Thursday will give these guys a nice long weekend to rest up. They should comeback refreshed. I am positive you will see a different Dalton next Sunday. He has to in order for us to win
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:21 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

When you account for the fact that Green is the only receiver he can trust more or less to run the correct route and not drop the ball it is hardly surprising he focuses on Green. Note that when we had Sanu in there he was distributing the ball pretty evenly. Why? Because Sanu proved he could be trusted.

The fact is the front office messed up big time in the offseason by not signing a veteran possession receiver - there were plenty out there. We've been trying to force trash like Binns and Tate into the role or else gadget players like Hawkins. And Marvin Jones is a project at this time - his rap in college was dropping passes and it is still so in the pros. And dropping passes is death to a #2 WR - they HAVE to be pretty much automatic.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:41 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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Probably one of the best posts I have read in a long time. You hit the nail on the head. Dalton doesn't seem like himself from last year. I was thinking it couldn't be ALL the receivers/lines fault. I have the feeling that a lot of answers are actually already on this team but they are overlooked or aren't utilized.

My worry is this - we have played 14 games and Dalton is still doing the same bad things. Does no one tell it to his face when he messes up? Are they coddling him? Why are the same mistakes being made? He seems to always want to force it into a double or triple covered Green rather than get it to a guy who is open one on one. The thing is, look at that one interception by Hall last game. There was no need of Foles to throw that pass given how the game was going. Think of how many games we lost because of similar INTs by Dalton. Dalton hasn't been a good game manager this year. Sometimes I feel like he doesn't take things seriously enough. Last night was the first time I saw him get frustrated. He will try forcing to a triple covered Green but won't throw one to a wide open other WR. I think Green conceals a lot of Dalton's shortcomings.
Maybe it's because he is getting mixed messages. I don't know what the coaches are saying, but lots of people in the media have been saying that he just needs to get it to his pro bowl player (Green).

I share your concern about the pattern of unresovled mistakes. I'm not that knowledgeable and I know that every quarterback is going to leave people open - but I feel he leaves a LOT of players open, telegraphs his targets and - as the OP pointed out - has a poor sense of where to go in the pocket.

It doesn't help that he has been under a LOT of pressure - and last night was the worse protection I've ever seen for him. It was a total sieve. Players weren't just stunting and penetrating, they were just bull rushing our strongest players and shoving them into the quarterback. I'm sure that, not knowing where they were coming from, they were having difficulty making their sets, but it rubbed me raw to see Dre being pushed around like he was on casters.

I don't know what the coaches are saying to him but I have an uneasy (and irrational) feeling that Dalton peaked in college and does not have any significant upside left.

Hope I'm wrong. I love his heart and his drive. I just hope he's able to learn and adjust.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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Hope I'm wrong. I love his heart and his drive. I just hope he's able to learn and adjust.
He's a better than average QB for now with an elite heart.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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....I don't know what the coaches are saying to him but I have an uneasy (and irrational) feeling that Dalton peaked in college and does not have any significant upside left...
But, to be fair, even if you're right about this fear his play at the moment is what I would describe as "solid NFL starter". I think people are a little down on him ... he does still have a passer rating for the season close to 90 and almost twice as many TDs as INTs. That's quarterbacking that you can win a lot of games with in the league with a strong supporting cast.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

A 2nd year QB who was a 2nd round draft pick and taking over a historically inept franchise with only one reliable offensive weapon, just put the offense on his back and pulled out a win in the 2nd straight game his teammates on offense let him down and he is struggling to adjust or something? Im calling ********.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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When you account for the fact that Green is the only receiver he can trust more or less to run the correct route and not drop the ball it is hardly surprising he focuses on Green. Note that when we had Sanu in there he was distributing the ball pretty evenly. Why? Because Sanu proved he could be trusted.

The fact is the front office messed up big time in the offseason by not signing a veteran possession receiver - there were plenty out there. We've been trying to force trash like Binns and Tate into the role or else gadget players like Hawkins. And Marvin Jones is a project at this time - his rap in college was dropping passes and it is still so in the pros. And dropping passes is death to a #2 WR - they HAVE to be pretty much automatic.
I agree with you about Andy not being able to trust other recievers and the impact that having Sanu emerge made on the team. I also agree that the coaches had a fairy tale perspective on Tate and Binns.

How players play in practice and how they perform in games are totally different animals. Hopefully Marvin learns from this. His perspective on the three players was backwards.

I'm not sure spending money on a big time possession receiver was going to be successful. They've had really bad luck in the free agent market - and so have other teams. It usually takes the FA receiver at least a year to adjust to his new team.

The only guy I can think of in the last several years that I would have traded for is Brandon Marshal. The others for the most part were a total waste of money.

And credit them with drafting Sanu and Jones. They are going to pan out. Sanu already has, I think he'll continue to improve because he's smart - and hopefully Marvin continues to grow. I think he will. But I think it will be a mistake to put him in the position of getting creamed when he goes up for the ball or having him fight for jump balls. His place will be downfield routes where he beats the db and stretches the field.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:31 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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I am also a fan and think that Dalton is in good shape at this point of his career. Unfortunately, I think there is something that will keep him from ever being in the top tier of NFL QBs and that is he doesn't have the great accuracy on throws to the sideline. Last night was another example of this ... a couple of short throws to the sideline were too far to the inside and almost intercepted .. he twice got bailed out by AJ snatching the ball in front of the defender. And, I think most of us would agree (Gruden even said as much in the offseason) that on deep balls the accuracy is often not there ... for example, the throw which sailed wide out of bounds deep versus San Diego when Green had his man beaten down the sideline. Anything he can do to improve that accuracy on throws to the sideline, short and deep throws, is a must.
Sorry but on that play AJ caught the ball with his chest he did not extend to catch that ball at all.I do agree the ball was thrown in the wrong spot.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

You can not teach mechanics to a guy that is running for his life cause the D-linemen are in his face.He had more time to throw the ball last year he could plant his feet and throw it.This year he has been running out of the pocket to throw because we can not block.We was doing decent blocking when we won the 4 games in a row but we have been stinking it up since then.We was avg. 30 points a game untill we put Cook back in then it droped to 20 points a game only reason we hit 30 plus last night was the D.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

What Andy needs to do is chew out the Olinemen including Whit and make them accountable.Way too many mistakes we had 10 flags.Instead of biting his tongue and going to sideline mad he needs to just chew these screwups out and demand them to step up and do thier damn job that would go a long way to fixing the problems with the line.Gruden and Marvin should both be doing this as well somebody needs to grow a set around here.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

Andy has a lot of room to improve, but this is a team game and his receivers didn't help him much vs. the cowboys and his oline hurt him last night.

He needs to play smarter imo and be ok with checking the ball down. With the defense and running game going making the smart safe play is going to help this team win.

I would be ok with spending our 1st round pick on a wr to help him and Green out.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

Dalton's problem is he has taken the personality of his head coach. He playing not to lose now as opposed to playing to win.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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A 2nd year QB who was a 2nd round draft pick and taking over a historically inept franchise with only one reliable offensive weapon, just put the offense on his back and pulled out a win in the 2nd straight game his teammates on offense let him down and he is struggling to adjust or something? Im calling ********.
This. 14 drops and 11 sacks in the past 2 weeks and we're ragging on Andy?

The kid has 30 touchdowns this year (4 rushing) and 14 picks. Passer rating still near 90.

He's a really good young QB with potential to be great.

Armon Binns started 5 games before the coaching staff realized he sukked and released his azz.

What does that say about our talent evaluators and the state of our receivers this year?

Quit knocking Andy until this team gets him the weapons he needs.

Marvin Jones might be the worst starting WR in the NFL right now.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

The first being his pocket presence and getting happy feet. Yesterday, at times, the line was horrible, so it was understandable that he got nervous, but, in previous games, he would be in the pocket for a few seconds and nothing would open up, so he'd scramble and get out of the pocket, even though there was no one around. When he gets out of the pocket, he only reads his receivers and anyone immediately around them, but not the safeties over the top or backers in the passing lane, which was evident in a few interceptions this year. Also, scrambling from the pocket and throwing on the run causes high throws or throws that are off-the-mark.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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Maybe it's because he is getting mixed messages. I don't know what the coaches are saying, but lots of people in the media have been saying that he just needs to get it to his pro bowl player (Green).
I really think you're overestimating how much the media influences players. I'm sure a lot of guys hear stuff, and maybe because they're human it sits with them a little bit subconsciously, but I really doubt he would throw a pass he wouldn't otherwise just because someone on TV said he should. Now if the coaches are saying that, it's a different story, but I really doubt they are.

Obviously I'm not in the lockerroom either, but I just can't believe the media has any real effect on anything.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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This. 14 drops and 11 sacks in the past 2 weeks and we're ragging on Andy?

The kid has 30 touchdowns this year (4 rushing) and 14 picks. Passer rating still near 90.

He's a really good young QB with potential to be great.

Armon Binns started 5 games before the coaching staff realized he sukked and released his azz.

What does that say about our talent evaluators and the state of our receivers this year?

Quit knocking Andy until this team gets him the weapons he needs.

Marvin Jones might be the worst starting WR in the NFL right now.
Remember that to the Dalton haters all the drops just don't matter. Or the poor pass protection.

Sorry but on a lot of other teams they would have brought in other WRs weeks ago. They also would have benched Gresham over the drops. fumbles and flags. It makes you wonder if our team braintrust actually understands the dynamics of a passing attack in the NFL...
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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He's a better than average QB for now with an elite heart.
Agreed, and I think people underestimate the importance of heart and drive in sport. Dalton would be a weaker player without his great attitude.

I think we've seen a lil regression in some parts of Andy's game this year. Last year he seemed to be really good at not taking the sack, throwing the ball away when nobody's open and ball security. His interceptions and fumbles combined are only 1 higher than last season's total, but he's seemed a bit worse at keeping it safe.

For the most part though I think Andy's done a good job and is moving in the right direction. Consistency is the key, and although he seems to do an ok job against the divisional foes, he's gotta pull out a win sometime against the top 2. Ultimately we need to find a way to consistently beat those teams, Andy's gotta pull it out sometime against them.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

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What Andy needs to do is chew out the Olinemen including Whit and make them accountable.Way too many mistakes we had 10 flags.Instead of biting his tongue and going to sideline mad he needs to just chew these screwups out and demand them to step up and do thier damn job that would go a long way to fixing the problems with the line.Gruden and Marvin should both be doing this as well somebody needs to grow a set around here.
I completely agree, but that doesn't seem to be Dalton's style. Maybe after being the object of Whack-a-Mole last night, Andy will jump their fat azzes and demand they play better. I swear Andre Smith looked like a fat rookie last night. Whit had his bell rung too. I'm sure the Steelers didn't miss noting how to get to Dalton either. I fear the Pittsbung game will be gruesome.

I hope the Bengals will pay a QB coach to work with Dalton this entire offseason to improve his mechanics and pocket awareness. It would be money well spent. I would chip in some bucks too.

Part of last night's mental failures (flags) was likely due to a short prep week after a painful loss to Dallas. But then, it seems to happen regularly and often. Tate catching a punt on the one yard line is classic brain freeze.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:04 PM
ODRAB14 ODRAB14 is offline
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
This. 14 drops and 11 sacks in the past 2 weeks and we're ragging on Andy?

The kid has 30 touchdowns this year (4 rushing) and 14 picks. Passer rating still near 90.

He's a really good young QB with potential to be great.

Armon Binns started 5 games before the coaching staff realized he sukked and released his azz.

What does that say about our talent evaluators and the state of our receivers this year?

Quit knocking Andy until this team gets him the weapons he needs.

Marvin Jones might be the worst starting WR in the NFL right now.


"He's a really good young QB with potential to be great." Couldn't agree more This thread is not intended to rag on him. This thread are what needs to be corrected to get him to great. Read gruden's quote he pretty much says the same thing. I agree they need to put more weapons around him but the great ones makes the ones around them better as well. Personally, I want them to keep adding Oline talent. I thought Boling struggled last night alot. As for weapns Right now he does have good running game, a top 2 receiver, a probowl tightend. Sanu went out and I do think that has hurt. Give Marvin Jones time though he will be fine. Tall and ability to stretch.

What I am saying though is regardless of weapons the things listed all need to be improved or more consistent. Mechanics and footwork being the foundation.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:07 PM
ODRAB14 ODRAB14 is offline
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Default Re: What Andy Dalton Needs to work on....

one thing I will say is we throw the term pocket awareness around pretty easily. When you get smacked in the face repeatedly it will impact anyone. Personally I do think Andy feels alot of pressure. Because he gets rid of the ball so fast the sack numbers don't show it but he gets alot of heat. This year has been better. I keep going back to this. At TCU he never really had to use a pocket. He got the ball and delivered. He has done alot of that here as well, hence the 1.5-2.0 second release from snap. As the game continues to slow down the hope is he will wait to let plays develop. I believe Dalton is far from a finished product. I think about how he progressed from his bowl game as a junior to how well he did as a senior. Progression and learning are key
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