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  #51  
Old 12-18-2012, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

Of course, the whole question of WHY Andy looks to AJ gets ignored - he can't trust the others to actually catch the ball. Notice that Sanu did actually catch the ball and Andy did throw it to him as well as AJ.

When you look at other offenses where they had only one reliable target the exact same issues are seen - redzone problems and third down problems. Had the front office shown some foresight and gotten a veteran possession receiver this whole topic would not exist - instead they chose to trust in goobers like Armon Binns and Brandon Tate.
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  #52  
Old 12-18-2012, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Originally Posted by Joelist View Post
Of course, the whole question of WHY Andy looks to AJ gets ignored - he can't trust the others to actually catch the ball. Notice that Sanu did actually catch the ball and Andy did throw it to him as well as AJ.

When you look at other offenses where they had only one reliable target the exact same issues are seen - redzone problems and third down problems. Had the front office shown some foresight and gotten a veteran possession receiver this whole topic would not exist - instead they chose to trust in goobers like Armon Binns and Brandon Tate.
Well, I think the whole notion of Andy locking onto or forcing balls to Green is way overblown anyway. According to this (http://www.fftoday.com/stats/players...sort_order=ASC) he has thrown a lot of balls to Green, but that's as you would expect when you have such a great playmaker at WR on the team. However, the numbers also show that Andy spreads the ball around plenty:

Green: 144 targets
Binns/Tate/Jones (#2 WR role): 65
Hawkins: 70
Sanu: 25
Gresham: 89

This breakdown is very comparable to the Texans, where Andre Johnson has 135 targets and second WR Kevin Walter has 60. TE Own Daniels has 93 targets. All very similar numbers to our target breakdown. The only big diff is Houston throws more passes to RBs and TEs than we do and we work the slot WRs more than they do.

All that said, I completely agree that we messed up big-time in not addressing WR in free agency. It is a big weakness on the roster that looms large as the season goes on. We also messed up by not addressing safety, but luckily we were able to correct that by getting Crocker back on the team after we bled yardage the first three weeks with the young safeties playing.

Last edited by Ryan Mc; 12-18-2012 at 10:41 PM.
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  #53  
Old 12-18-2012, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Of course, the whole question of WHY Andy looks to AJ gets ignored - he can't trust the others to actually catch the ball. Notice that Sanu did actually catch the ball and Andy did throw it to him as well as AJ.

When you look at other offenses where they had only one reliable target the exact same issues are seen - redzone problems and third down problems. Had the front office shown some foresight and gotten a veteran possession receiver this whole topic would not exist - instead they chose to trust in goobers like Armon Binns and Brandon Tate.
The above is part of the echo chamber this board spews out daily. It the same crap: "Andy can't trust nobody but AJ."
Oh but wait a minute, AJ's been dropping passes too. So now what? We have find WR's that don't drop passes? Your delusional. IE. In world of lies. We have good to GREAT WR's. Get away from this board for a while and read different material.

Last edited by Hammerthis; 12-18-2012 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Subtract correction
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  #54  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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The above is part of the echo chamber this board spews out daily. It the same crap: "Andy can't trust nobody but AJ."
Oh but wait a minute, AJ's been dropping passes too. So now what? We have find WR's that don't drop passes? Your delusional. IE. In world of lies. We have good to GREAT WR's. Get away from this board for a while and read different material.
Look who's calling who delusional? AJ rarely drops balls - Jones does it constantly. Gresham fumbles a lot and gets flagged constantly. Plus AJ actually runs his routes correctly - Jones in his short time out there has more than once cut his route off for no reason - and in the Eagles game cost us a TD by doing it.

Only in your delusional world do we have good to great WRs. The lack of supporting cast for Dalton outside of Green has been pointed out before on places like NFL Network and in games by the announcers.
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  #55  
Old 12-19-2012, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Look who's calling who delusional? AJ rarely drops balls - Jones does it constantly. Gresham fumbles a lot and gets flagged constantly. Plus AJ actually runs his routes correctly - Jones in his short time out there has more than once cut his route off for no reason - and in the Eagles game cost us a TD by doing it.

Only in your delusional world do we have good to great WRs. The lack of supporting cast for Dalton outside of Green has been pointed out before on places like NFL Network and in games by the announcers.
NFL( professionals) analyst Say it's Andy that got to throw the ball to the OPEN WR. It's you'er opinion he needs to be able to trust?
Do WRs need to trust Andy to pass accurately in order to run good routes?
Picture you're theory in action: Dalton drops back to pass and Gresh is wide open in the end zone but because he doesn't trust him he throws the ball into the stands. See? You're theory doesn't hold water. The only trust a QB really needs is protection from his blind side. The idea the QB must be ABLE to trust his WRs might lead some to think he has an option not to pass to a wide open WR if he's on the QB's do not trust list. This is false. The WRs are in the the game by coaches choice.
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  #56  
Old 12-19-2012, 05:30 AM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Originally Posted by bengalfan74 View Post
Hammer I highly doubt most here say Andy is "elite" but I get and agree with a lot of what you say.

But here's a question for ya. Does Andy really have to be "elite" ? ?

The term is thrown around quite a bit, and who is and who isn't is a matter of someone's opinion. Few are truly "elite" in most peoples eyes. After you get past Brady, Rodgers, and P. Manning the water gets pretty murky ! Is M. Schaub elite ? what about C. Kapernick ? RG III ? How about D. Brees ?

Would very good to great do ? In other words I really don't care what he's labeled as long as he takes us to the title.
Bengalfan74 I couldn't agree with you more. The only 3 truly elite QBs IMHO is Brady, P Manning and Rogers. They can dictate a game by dissecting the defense and passing with pinpoint accuracy. It seems like they play better when the game is on the line. They don't fold like cheap suit (Not saying Andy does).
No, Andy does not have to be elite.
Yes, I do feel Andy is good enough to have a winning season and I've stated it in previous post. My issue is this: Too many people on this board are sheep! I believe most on this board do little or no research of their own in regards to players performance. As a result too many people here have the same warped opinions. Such as, "Andy is elite!" No, he's not! Or how about this one "Gresham ------"! No, he does not! He's on his way to becoming the best TE the Bengals have EVER had.
Almost any team or individual players stat can be googled.
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  #57  
Old 12-19-2012, 05:58 AM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
I guess what you do not seem to understand is that I am not wrestling with anything. I am not at all concerned with the progression of Dalton. I tend to believe as Lewis does that Andy is fine and the others around him need to elevate their game.
I guess you would believe that Marino not having a Superbowl ring is because he needed to play better? Is this how your theory works?
A couple of questions since you brought some things up.
1) From you statements I am lead to believe that you did not feel there were protection issues over the last two games. Is that accurate from your statements?
2) Do you really feel that Benny (who I like very much) is a "top notch" RB?
I heard ML say that as well. I can only guess he doesn't want to undermine the QB position in terms of overall player confidence. So much of football is mental I really don't know what to tell you other than Andy played probably one of his worst games the same day ML said that.
IMHO that Dan Marino doesn't have a SB ring because he never played on the best team doing his career. The best team wins. The best QB may or may not play on the best team. Right?
I do believe the Bengals had protection issues against the last two teams. They were against some of the best pass rusher's in the NFL. In that situation our QB is gonna have to adapt and over come, toughing up and move the chains.
As far as Benny goes, the coaching staff obviously felt he was the best available and that's that. Every team goes thru injuries and have less than desirable players but as the QB you **** it up and lead the charge from the front.
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  #58  
Old 12-19-2012, 07:11 AM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Heck, even Luck is taking time. His numbers are terrible. He only gets a pass because the Colts are finding ways to win.

Andy's rookie numbers were better than Lucks, and Andy has improved this year regardless of what his bashers say.
Although I don't like to make excuses, I think Palmer had a significantly better offense (TJ, Chad, Henry, Rudi, and a very good oline) than Dalton currently has on the field. However, I see the potential for this offense to be better in the long term. AJ is magic. Marvin Jones, Sanu, and Hawkins will only grow WITH Andy as they play together. Charles will get more action and help comlement (push?) Gresham. BJGE is not Rudi in his prime, but he is solid, and the Bengals are likely to draft a complementary back even though Peerman has looked really good in limited action. Also like what I have seen in Boom Herron in even fewer snaps.

The best part of Andy's Arsenal is the youth and development that will come from working together. They are quietly putting together an offense that could be similar to a Green Bay or New Orleans. I sure hope they can keep Gruden at least one more year in that role.
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  #59  
Old 12-26-2012, 02:09 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Will this post be brought up in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017.............?

Quarterback Andy Dalton is 17 - 13 with a playoff loss. Quarterback Dalton had yet to win against the Pittsburgh Steelers and Baltimore, going 0-6 against them.

Week 16 of the 2012 National Football League schedule has quarterback Dalton facing the Pittsburgh Steelers in the second most crucial game of his career (the first being the 2012 Wild Card game against the Houston Texans). In my preseason prediction I have the Cincinnati Bengals losing this game at Heinz Field and thus being eliminated from the 2012 National Football League playoffs.

I would prognosticate that in 2017, somebody will post that " It takes years to develop QB's" in reference to quarterback Dalton.
Welp, just like most of your predictions, you were wrong again. eatcrowplx.
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  #60  
Old 12-26-2012, 02:17 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

Hey fellow fans! I am an ole timer and have been watching football for 50+ years! Born and raised in Dayton, Ohio and was a Browns fan before Cincy ever had a team!

Outside of Kenny Anderson, this kid Dalton is potentially the best they've ever had! Yes, he is not the seasoned QB that Brady and Manning are, but it's only his second year!!!

He isn't anymore inconsistent than Eli Manning has been over the last few years for crying out loud! I've seen Manning do horribly fundamental things this year that Dalton has never done! I think the Giants have been very fortunate to win the two Super Bowls they did, basically because they got hot at the right time, especially their defense! It wasn't Eli Manning that kept Brady at bay and frustrated for those 2 Super Bowl games, it was their defense!!

Like Andrew Whitworth says, the great thing about Andy is that he wants to get better and is always looking to do that every game!

This is the most cohesive Bengals team that I've seen and I grew up with them from Greg Cook to Andy Dalton.

The big difference on this year is the defense!!! The Bengals have never had a defense like this, that is as solid from A to Z.

This Bengals team is also the youngest team in the league, age wise!

Don't forget, Marvin Lewis was defensive coordinator when the Ravens won the Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer at QB for crying out loud!
Baltimore won on defense that year and if you look at their defensive stats for that year, no team, including the 70s Steelers have had stats that they had that year!!

Did you all know that in those 6 years that the Steelers dominated in the 70s, winning 4 Super Bowls, they never had one QB, and one only, throughout any one season!!! Not because they were injured but because Chuck Knoll kept switching them around trying to find a chemistry. He used Bradshaw, Hanratty, and Gilliam, throughout those 6 seasons. Just so happened that Bradshaw was the one who stepped up at playoff time and was the one who got the nod!

Don't forget, a tenacious defense will make a QB look more ineffective. Just ask Brady in the last 2 Super Bowls, ask Eli, Rivers, Palmer, and Rothliesberger in their games against the Bengals this year!!

Enjoy the ride Bengals fans because if they can keep this group together, I think we will seem some Lombardi trophies in the near future!!
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  #61  
Old 12-26-2012, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Look who's calling who delusional? AJ rarely drops balls - Jones does it constantly. Gresham fumbles a lot and gets flagged constantly. Plus AJ actually runs his routes correctly - Jones in his short time out there has more than once cut his route off for no reason - and in the Eagles game cost us a TD by doing it.

Only in your delusional world do we have good to great WRs. The lack of supporting cast for Dalton outside of Green has been pointed out before on places like NFL Network and in games by the announcers.
Correct, AJ seldomly drops passes ( it was used as sarcasm) but a lot people fill if we only had zero drops Andy would really shine. Their in a state of delusion.
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  #62  
Old 12-26-2012, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Correct, AJ seldomly drops passes ( it was used as sarcasm) but a lot people fill if we only had zero drops Andy would really shine. Their in a state of delusion.
How many drops would you classify as excessive for a single game? No one is expecting ZERO drops. You're being intentionally obtuse.
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  #63  
Old 12-26-2012, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

DALTON BOTTOM LINE: It's his 'SECOND YEAR'. Give him time to grow!! Focus on the fact that no other Bengals QB has been able to take them to back to back playoff years other than Ken Anderson, and only 2 (Peyton and Marino) have thrown 20+ TD passes in their first 2 years!
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:45 PM
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Welp, just like most of your predictions, you were wrong again. eatcrowplx.
I disagree with you. In the game against the Steelers we could have used Josh Brown as QB and got the same results. Andy could kept his 10 cents worth of game contributions in his locker. He was pitiful. That's why his passer rating is now lower than guess who? Cam Newton. This is going to start a barn fire watch.
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  #65  
Old 12-26-2012, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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I disagree with you. In the game against the Steelers we could have used Josh Brown as QB and got the same results. Andy could kept his 10 cents worth of game contributions in his locker. He was pitiful. That's why his passer rating is now lower than guess who? Cam Newton. This is going to start a barn fire watch.
Um... Cam Newton turned his season around in a major way if you haven't paid attention. He's having a really good season overall. So is Andy.
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From 2006-2013, this team has never finished higher than 20th in yards per carry. They've had an average rank of 27th during those 8 seasons.

During those 8 seasons, we've had several starting RBs, different starters on the o-line, different TEs and FBs and 2 different RB coaches. Only our o-line coach remained the same.
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  #66  
Old 12-26-2012, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

I think Dalton is doing fine in his development. I like his mental makeup and think he's going to get better with his technique and defense recognition.

We have had a few challenges this year that will test a young QB, and he has struggled a bit with it at times. The rotating centers and lack of continuity is difficult for younger QBs. Also, a bunch of Andy's INTs this year were kind of flukey/luck based. A couple were not his fault and were bad routes.

Also, I've struggled a bit identifying what is going on offensively at times. I've mentioned this many times about Marvin meddling with the offensive scheming - and it has felt much more pronounced this year. I'm not sure if Gruden has struggled a bit finding the right mix/chemistry of play calls or if there has just been some head-butting behind the scenes, etc. The bottom line is we go from looking really fluid and good to looking absolutely awful and there's a bunch of things I can't figure out from looking at film. I wish we could listen in on the headset - but we can't.

There is one additional factor that has hurt Andy and the offense this year - and thats the inconsistent run blocking and hit/miss of BGE. The run game has looked really solid at times with a fairly average talent in BGE, and other times it has been disaster. The Steelers game is a great example. I looked at the film and although the Steelers were quite solid in run defense - we had some horrid individual performances on our O-Line. Boling, Zeitler and Cook had bad games. Cook in particular was astonishingly bad. These are the same guys who played significantly better in recent weeks.

Dalton hasn't regressed - I think he has actually improved in a couple areas.
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  #67  
Old 12-26-2012, 03:05 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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DALTON BOTTOM LINE: It's his 'SECOND YEAR'. Give him time to grow!! Focus on the fact that no other Bengals QB has been able to take them to back to back playoff years other than Ken Anderson, and only 2 (Peyton and Marino) have thrown 20+ TD passes in their first 2 years!
We have you, Shake, OUSfan and bunch more focusing on facts of team accomplishments and tying it all into Daltons doings. Great! However I'm a little tired of seeing how so many are being buffaloaded into believing these are acceptable numbers/accomplishments giving the significant amount of talent on this team.
We should have a much better offensive team than we have and I'm convinced Andy is more of the problem than the solution. Why? He has way too many problems to fix in just one more year! It probably will take him at least 2 or 3 more years to fix his problems.
Good defenses have him pegged dead to right, they know his habits as one trick pony. It's not our WRs.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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Um... Cam Newton turned his season around in a major way if you haven't paid attention. He's having a really good season overall. So is Andy.
The fact that what I said was the truth, led you to believe I wasn't paying attention? Or is it you wresting with the truth? Again?

Last edited by Hammerthis; 12-26-2012 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Correction
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  #69  
Old 12-26-2012, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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We have you, Shake, OUSfan and bunch more focusing on facts of team accomplishments and tying it all into Daltons doings. Great! However I'm a little tired of seeing how so many are being buffaloaded into believing these are acceptable numbers/accomplishments giving the significant amount of talent on this team.
We should have a much better offensive team than we have and I'm convinced Andy is more of the problem than the solution. Why? He has way too many problems to fix in just one more year! It probably will take him at least 2 or 3 more years to fix his problems.
Good defenses have him pegged dead to right, they know his habits as one trick pony. It's not our WRs.

How many years has Eli Manning had? Yes he won two SBs but on the heels of his defense. This year against the tough defenses, Eli has looked much more confused and inconsistent than Dalton ever has, and Eli has been around for how many years????
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:07 PM
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How many years has Eli Manning had? Yes he won two SBs but on the heels of his defense. This year against the tough defenses, Eli has looked much more confused and inconsistent than Dalton ever has, and Eli has been around for how many years????
This is debatable .
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: It takes years to develop QB's

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This is debatable .

QB Ratings with one game left:

14. Dalton with an 87 rating
17. Manning with an 83.6 rating
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  #72  
Old 12-26-2012, 11:53 PM
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How many years has Eli Manning had? Yes he won two SBs but on the heels of his defense. This year against the tough defenses, Eli has looked much more confused and inconsistent than Dalton ever has, and Eli has been around for how many years????
Absolutely ... but IMO, not the best comparison to bring up. Manning is by far the most over-rated QB of the last decade, who has still only ever led the league in one statistical category ... INTs, and he's done that twice.
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  #73  
Old 12-27-2012, 08:09 AM
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Absolutely ... but IMO, not the best comparison to bring up. Manning is by far the most over-rated QB of the last decade, who has still only ever led the league in one statistical category ... INTs, and he's done that twice.

Disagree! That's a great comparison because Eli has been around and considered a veteran QB and was still out played by our second year guy!

We need to stop comparing Dalton to Brady and Manning and let him grow.

Does anyone think Dan Marino was a mediocre QB? If you base it on Super Bowl wins he must have only been mediocre, because he has no rings!!
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