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  #276  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:34 AM
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You're misrepresenting what I said. I said that weapons designed for the military are designed to kill humans in an offensive manner. Not self-defense, not hunting. That's fact. Killing humans offensively is illegal for a civilian. Fact. So why is there a tool designed for something illegal for civilians to do, that is legal for civilians to own?

Now, I have said there is zero need for semi-automatic weapons in civilian hands overall, yes. Which is true, there is zero need. Do some prefer them? Yes, but there is zero need.
this is false. the ar platform was designed to be used as both an offensive AND defensive weapon. the military doesn't issue 2 types of weapons to each infantryman and tell them use weapon a only when we attack and weapon b only when we defend.

Do you think the m1a1 abrams was designed as an offensive weapon? most people do but it wasn't. it was designed to be used on the plains of central europe to defend against possible soviet aggression, not take the fight to the soviets. if that was the case they would have used a far more fuel efficient engine. can it be used offensively? sure and it's damn good at it too, but it doesn't change the fact was designed to defend.
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  #277  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:40 AM
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this is false. the ar platform was designed to be used as both an offensive AND defensive weapon. the military doesn't issue 2 types of weapons to each infantryman and tell them use weapon a only when we attack and weapon b only when we defend.

Do you think the m1a1 abrams was designed as an offensive weapon? most people do but it wasn't. it was designed to be used on the plains of central europe to defend against possible soviet aggression, not take the fight to the soviets. if that was the case they would have used a far more fuel efficient engine. can it be used offensively? sure and it's damn good at it too, but it doesn't change the fact was designed to defend.
The AR platform is not a self-defense design, plain and simple. There is nothing that could be said that can change that.
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  #278  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:47 AM
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The AR platform is not a self-defense design, plain and simple. There is nothing that could be said that can change that.
but it is not solely an offensive weapon as you claim it to be.
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  #279  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:59 AM
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but it is not solely an offensive weapon as you claim it to be.
A hunting rifle is not solely a hunting rifle. Doesn't change what it was designed for. Many tools have multiple uses, but they are generally designed for one. This is something I have stated several times.

If you have a problem with my word choice, that's fine. Does not change the fact that what military rifles are designed for is illegal for a civilian to engage in.
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  #280  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:01 PM
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Yep. That's usually considered the tops for home defense. A rifle is always at the bottom, with revolver and semi-auto pistol usually in the 2 and 3 spots, but switching back and forth depending on preference. Though I usually see revolver higher.
Yes and no. There are issues with using a shotgun for home defense. For one, keeping one constantly loaded for home defense use wears the spring in the internal magazine down over time, making it much more likely to jam. Another issue is home construction. In a wide open house, they are ok, but in a house with a lot of tight corners and angles in the construction, they are unwieldy and become it becomes especially difficult to turn corners while maintaining a low target profile, especially when turning a corner on the same side as your natural handidness[example:a right handed person turning around a corner to their right].
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  #281  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:12 PM
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Yes and no. There are issues with using a shotgun for home defense. For one, keeping one constantly loaded for home defense use wears the spring in the internal magazine down over time, making it much more likely to jam. Another issue is home construction. In a wide open house, they are ok, but in a house with a lot of tight corners and angles in the construction, they are unwieldy and become it becomes especially difficult to turn corners while maintaining a low target profile, especially when turning a corner on the same side as your natural handidness[example:a right handed person turning around a corner to their right].
With the spring issue, that is correct, but that can be said for any weapon aside from a break open, rolling block, or revolver. As for the tight corners, the best method for home defense is to take a defensible position. If this method is used, a shotgun is perfectly fine.
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  #282  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:27 PM
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A hunting rifle is not solely a hunting rifle. Doesn't change what it was designed for. Many tools have multiple uses, but they are generally designed for one. This is something I have stated several times.

If you have a problem with my word choice, that's fine. Does not change the fact that what military rifles are designed for is illegal for a civilian to engage in.
so it is illegal for a civilian to neutralize a threat? then how is it possible that stand your ground laws and the castle doctrine are legal? you might not choose an ar 15 for your home defense but someone else might and that is their right. just because you might choose to own fords over chevys even if the ford is a better vehicle than the chevy (yeah right) for what you intend to use it for doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to use only a ford for that job.

there are people in this world who want to protect themselves but can't physically shoot a shotgun or .357 because of heavy recoil but can shoot an ar 15 which has very little. do you want to deny them their right of self defense?
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  #283  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:46 PM
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so it is illegal for a civilian to neutralize a threat? then how is it possible that stand your ground laws and the castle doctrine are legal? you might not choose an ar 15 for your home defense but someone else might and that is their right. just because you might choose to own fords over chevys even if the ford is a better vehicle than the chevy (yeah right) for what you intend to use it for doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to use only a ford for that job.

there are people in this world who want to protect themselves but can't physically shoot a shotgun or .357 because of heavy recoil but can shoot an ar 15 which has very little. do you want to deny them their right of self defense?
I said military weapons are not designed for self-defense, which they are not. As for the whole recoil thing you bring up, get a large frame revolver chambered in .357 magnum and load it with .38 special, tell me how much recoil that has.

It's only a denial of rights if there are no alternatives. But there are plenty of alternatives, ones that are far superior. Military weapons are designed for combat, not self-defense. And since self-defense is the only time a person should be shooting someone else, then there is no reason for them to be available.
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  #284  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:52 PM
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I said military weapons are not designed for self-defense, which they are not. As for the whole recoil thing you bring up, get a large frame revolver chambered in .357 magnum and load it with .38 special, tell me how much recoil that has.

It's only a denial of rights if there are no alternatives. But there are plenty of alternatives, ones that are far superior. Military weapons are designed for combat, not self-defense. And since self-defense is the only time a person should be shooting someone else, then there is no reason for them to be available.
They are designed to Defend a Country And the Soldier holding them So i would say thats self defense too...
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  #285  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:59 PM
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I read an article in a gun magazine a few years ago. It ranked the best weapons for home defense. Kind of like the power rankings for football. The writers on the panel talked about all sorts of pros and cons, etc. of all sorts of weapons ranging from specific brands and types of revolvers, semi auto, caliber, etc.

Unanimous #1 weapon for home defense...... 12 Gauge shotgun.

Reasons:

- Multiple ammo choices. Ammunition is available that will NOT go through walls, potentially harming unintended targets, but WILL incapacitate an intruder.

- Does not require much accuracy or skill. Essentially point and pull. People under duress tend to lose accuracy, are nervous, etc. We've all seen videos of police shootouts where the guys are a few feet away, fire a ton of rounds and nobody is even grazed. The 12 gauge eliminates any margin for error as long as you are pointed in the general direction of your target.

- Simple, easy to operate.

- Their number 1 reason: No one in their right mind will continue aggression after hearing "Don't come any closer, I have a shotgun" and then hearing the shotgun's famous "rack-rack" sound.
I believe the shotgun is the best home defense weapon. If I ever felt I had to have home defense, that is what I would want.
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  #286  
Old 12-19-2012, 01:02 PM
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I said military weapons are not designed for self-defense, which they are not. As for the whole recoil thing you bring up, get a large frame revolver chambered in .357 magnum and load it with .38 special, tell me how much recoil that has.

It's only a denial of rights if there are no alternatives. But there are plenty of alternatives, ones that are far superior. Military weapons are designed for combat, not self-defense. And since self-defense is the only time a person should be shooting someone else, then there is no reason for them to be available.
Your right about the .38 special. You can put that in your .357 and essentially fire the same round with little to no recoil. You just have to clean the cylinder off since the shorter round will leave residue in the cylinder. I can't agree on "no reason to have them" because it overlooks a good many reasons to have them. The first being, the person wants one. From there, you can go to ranchers, people with large properties or farms in rural areas or just shooting enthusiasts. A better way to state that is; "you" don't see any reason to have them.

If they were a problem apart from a couple of recent very well publicized incidents, it would show up statistically and I might aqree. It doesn't. Less than 2% of gun fatalities are due to an assault weapon. And as is the case, Connecticut has had a ban on the possesion of assault guns for a long time now, which did nothing to prevent the most tragic event.

I know you've said that's not where your coming from on this, it's the gun not the incidents. And I understand that, but you don't seem to want to preface what you say with "in my opinion." Which it is.

I understand in your opinion there is no good reason to have an assault rifle. A perfectly fine opinion to have and you have a right to it.

But it is also the opinion of millions of other people that they do have a good reason to have one, starting with the fact they simply want one. And there is no great threat or other reason that they shouldn't be able to; which is partially my opinion and partially statistics. There isn't any clear evidence short of an emotional outburst by politicians breaking an ankle to get in front of a camera, to ban them. Further, with the proposal to reinstate the assault gun ban that seems to be an "on again - off again", law bound to expire the next Republican Administration we get, particularly in view of the Tea Pah-tay, no doubt it will expire again or be tossed out. The jiggling of the law due to mealy mouth politicians who want to cash in on the poor kids deaths in Newtown, and make a mockery of the entire thing by pretending to do something about it, with a so-called assault gun ban, while in reality doing absolutely nothing about it is unconscionable.

Meantime, the poor kids still have to go to schools where they will be no safer because of some ill thought out law in effect, than they were the day before it was thought up. That's where I'm coming from. Not about the gun, about the pretense of a law which will do nothing except make everyone feel good and forget doing anything that actually does resolve the problem.
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  #287  
Old 12-19-2012, 01:12 PM
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Your right about the .38 special. You can put that in your .357 and essentially fire the same round with little to no recoil. You just have to clean the cylinder off since the shorter round will leave residue in the cylinder. I can't agree on "no reason to have them" because it overlooks a good many reasons to have them. The first being, the person wants one. From there, you can go to ranchers, people with large properties or farms in rural areas or just shooting enthusiasts. A better way to state that is; "you" don't see any reason to have them.

If they were a problem apart from a couple of recent very well publicized incidents, it would show up statistically and I might aqree. It doesn't. Less than 2% of gun fatalities are due to an assault weapon. And as is the case, Connecticut has had a ban on the possesion of assault guns for a long time now, which did nothing to prevent the most tragic event.

I know you've said that's not where your coming from on this, it's the gun not the incidents. And I understand that, but you don't seem to want to preface what you say with "in my opinion." Which it is.

I understand in your opinion there is no good reason to have an assault rifle. A perfectly fine opinion to have and you have a right to it.

But it is also the opinion of millions of other people that they do have a good reason to have one, starting with the fact they simply want one. And there is no great threat or other reason that they shouldn't be able to; which is partially my opinion and partially statistics. There isn't any clear evidence short of an emotional outburst by politicians breaking an ankle to get in front of a camera, to ban them.
Wanting something is not a reason for it to be available, though. I love shooting these things we're talking about. They are fun as hell, there is no denying. But just because you want something or something is fun means is should be as readily available as these weapons are.
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  #288  
Old 12-19-2012, 01:17 PM
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I believe the shotgun is the best home defense weapon. If I ever felt I had to have home defense, that is what I would want.
I don't like the shotgun for home defense where invasion has occurred and possibly the need to shoot with family members either near by or in captivity. Handgun is better in my opinion.

Shotgun is good for preventing the breach to the home if you get the opportunity.
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  #289  
Old 12-19-2012, 01:27 PM
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Wanting something is not a reason for it to be available, though. I love shooting these things we're talking about. They are fun as hell, there is no denying. But just because you want something or something is fun means is should be as readily available as these weapons are.
I don't understand your thinking on that. The same could be said of ice cream, a television set, or an electric hedge trimmer. Maybe you feel the same about those, I don't know. My grandfather didn't see why people keep buying new cars when the old ones still ran. There is that philosphy, but I don't think that's your thinking.

To me unless there is a good reason otherwise then there is no reason for someone not to have something they want; all things otherwise being it's legal, it's not dangerous (in the case of a gun, any gun is a danger if handled improperly or for criminal purpose, but dangerous in that they are some major public menace otherwise).

I don't know, maybe it's an age difference or regional difference. I grew up on a farm, many miles from anywhere, went to a 4 room school house with an outhouse (one for boys, one for girls - teachers too), and hunted with my grandfather when I was 10. I had guns six years before I could drive a car. Even on a learners permit. By then I had moved to the big city, so-called. But it was a country rural life where I grew up, and there were no police (might get there in 35-40 minutes if they went flat out, same for fire trucks. By the time they got there, nothing was left to put out. So we were on our own. Not in a city or crowded area of people, police, traffic, (dog could lay and take a sun bath in the road out front all day and not have to get up). That road wasnt' paved until I was an adult and long gone from there.

Anyway, I see no reason just wanting something in a free society isn't sufficient justification for having it provided it isn't a public menace or something otherwise illegal.
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  #290  
Old 12-19-2012, 01:31 PM
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I believe the shotgun is the best home defense weapon. If I ever felt I had to have home defense, that is what I would want.
If you like blowing holes thru your wall and furniture sure i guess...

Shotgun might be most liked because it requires the least amount of aiming skill...

Hand Gun or an Axe is the way to go.

Or Assult Rifle if there is more than 1 guy in your house.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:36 PM
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If you like blowing holes thru your wall and furniture sure i guess...

Shotgun might be most liked because it requires the least amount of aiming skill...

Hand Gun or an Axe is the way to go.

Or Assult Rifle if there is more than 1 guy in your house.
Assault rifle, or any rifle really, has a high risk of injuring innocents. That's why it's so low on the list.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:38 PM
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Assault rifle, or any rifle really, has a high risk of injuring innocents. That's why it's so low on the list.
That all depends on WHO is handling said rifle and their skill level...


I could get down with a system that requires you to prove your skill before being able to purchase a certain weapon.
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  #293  
Old 12-19-2012, 01:41 PM
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I don't understand your thinking on that. The same could be said of ice cream, a television set, or an electric hedge trimmer. Maybe you feel the same about those, I don't know. My grandfather didn't see why people keep buying new cars when the old ones still ran. There is that philosphy, but I don't think that's your thinking.

To me unless there is a good reason otherwise then there is no reason for someone not to have something they want; all things otherwise being their legal, their not dangerous (in the case of a gun, any gun is a danger if handled improperly or for criminal purpose, but dangerous in that they are some major public menace otherwise).

I don't know, maybe it's an age difference or regional difference. I grew up on a farm, many miles from anywhere, went to a 4 room school house with an outhouse (one for boys, one for girls - teachers too), and hunted with my grandfather when I was 10. I had guns six years before I could drive a car. Even on a learners permit. By then I had moved to the big city, so-called. But it was a country rural life where I grew up, and there were no police (might get there in 35-40 minutes if they went flat out, same for fire trucks. By the time they got there, nothing was left to put out. So we were on our own. Not in a city or crowded area of people, police, traffic, (dog could lay and take a sun bath in the road out front all day and not have to get up). That road wasnt' paved until I was an adult and long gone from there.

Anyway, I see no reason just wanting something in a free society isn't sufficient justification for having it provided it isn't a public menace or something otherwise illegal.
I've owned a firearm since I was born. I've hunted since it was legal for me to hunt (not any earlier, my story, sticking to it). Where I'm from it's the same as you describe. By the time I was school age, I did live in a more developed area though. My parents raised my sister and I with those kinds of ideals, though, because what you describe is exactly how they grew up, my dad especially.

Anyway, he will tell you the same thing on this one. Growing up like he did taught him that wanting something didn't mean you needed it. Was not justification for having it.

So it's not how you grew up, just a difference in opinion.
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  #294  
Old 12-19-2012, 01:41 PM
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I don't like the shotgun for home defense where invasion has occurred and possibly the need to shoot with family members either near by or in captivity. Handgun is better in my opinion.

Shotgun is good for preventing the breach to the home if you get the opportunity.
It depends upon what you have the shotgun loaded with IMO

Plus if you have a family member in captivity, popping off rounds from anything is ill-advised.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:42 PM
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That all depends on WHO is handling said rifle and their skill level...


I could get down with a system that requires you to prove your skill before being able to purchase a certain weapon.
Has nothing to do with who. Everyone has the potential to miss, and the munitions for a rifle will penetrate walls like nothing.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:47 PM
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It depends upon what you have the shotgun loaded with IMO

Plus if you have a family member in captivity, popping off rounds from anything is ill-advised.
So then...If you have your shotgun loaded with a slug round instead of spread why would it be better than a smaller more maneuverable weapon when defending a home in often cramped space?
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:50 PM
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The biggest problem with Guns...

Is that people are too afraid to use their Fist for Fighting anymore.. Everyone has become pussys.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:56 PM
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I've owned a firearm since I was born. I've hunted since it was legal for me to hunt (not any earlier, my story, sticking to it). Where I'm from it's the same as you describe. By the time I was school age, I did live in a more developed area though. My parents raised my sister and I with those kinds of ideals, though, because what you describe is exactly how they grew up, my dad especially.

Anyway, he will tell you the same thing on this one. Growing up like he did taught him that wanting something didn't mean you needed it. Was not justification for having it.

So it's not how you grew up, just a difference in opinion.
Okay, then it seems to come from a bit of my grandfathers philosophy perhaps. I'm not sure why it didn't take with me, he and I were pretty close. He passed away when I was still pretty young about the time I did learn to drive. I'll have to think about that.

Still, just recognize the rest of the world might not necessarily think like we do or you do, or I do. I see a lot of people in here (not you), who don't seem to have the first notion of that and call someone all types of names because they don't think like them. Again, not you. But I see it and it amazes me. I told someone the other day; I don't take things in here personal, it's a big world and everyone thinks different.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:00 PM
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XenoMorph XenoMorph is offline
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Default Re: How do you feel about guns?

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Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
Okay, then it seems to come from a bit of my grandfathers philosophy perhaps. I'm not sure why it didn't take with me, he and I were pretty close. He passed away when I was still pretty young about the time I did learn to drive. I'll have to think about that.

Still, just recognize the rest of the world might not necessarily think like we do or you do, or I do. I see a lot of people in here (not you), who don't seem to have the first notion of that and call someone all types of names because they don't think like them. Again, not you. But I see it and it amazes me. I told someone the other day; I don't take things in here personal, it's a big world and everyone thinks different.
I was always told if you want Something its yours if you can earn it.... (either by earning the money for it or getting it another way.) Ive worked for everything i got and if I decide to purchase a gun I want to purchase one that matches my personallity and will be usful in case of zombies.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about guns?

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It depends upon what you have the shotgun loaded with IMO

Plus if you have a family member in captivity, popping off rounds from anything is ill-advised.
"Family member in captivity..?!?!?!" Like maybe the wife in handcuffs dangling from the eyebolts in the ceiling?

Zona! I had no idea. Here I was thinking you were a pretty straight laced, no whiskers type of fellow. Man you find out the damest things in here.
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Last edited by Sher Khan; 12-19-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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