In desperate need of a number 2 receiver

[fortyyearfan]

Originally Posted by Lygraf

i'd like to see Charles getting more looks. if we don't have the horsepower at WR to get the job done, i'm not sure why we aren't upping TE production. why not run two TE sets?

EXACTLY,well said, new england runs two te's and they put 30 plus up on everybody every week.# 84 flat out scares me. he just makes mistakes in critical situations and i just do not trust him when we need him the most.i hope this dude doesn't cost us the game sunday. it would'nt surprise me. he scares me big time.i trust orlson charles much more to hold on to the rock. i can;t figure out gresham, he is so big and strong and yet he lacks concentration or something. the dude makes way too many mistakes, like he is mentality challenged. who knows. if he has a big game sunday, we win.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Mexal

WR2 only gets 3-4 targets a game. They're the 4th target in Dalton's progression behind Green, Gresham and Hawkins. That is, if Dalton actually goes through progressions which he doesn't do. Unless Gruden calls plays design to get the WR2 the ball and Dalton is able to actually make good throughs, it doesn't matter who is there.

That being said, I like both Jones and Sanu for the future. Both have good skills, one getting separation, the other making tough catches in traffic.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=321213021

Look at the targets. Baby Hawk was targeted once against the Eagles.

Green (10), Gresham (9), Marvin Jones (4), Leonard (2), Hawkins (1).

This team desparately needs a legit WR2.

Sanu is a slot receiver.

WR1: Green/Jones
WR2: TBD/Whalen
Slot: Sanu/Hawkins

[bengalfan74]

Originally Posted by Rattler

He's rushing his throws because the protection isn't holding up well. When he does have time, his mechanics are off and he's throwing off his back foot, which is probably a by product of the pass
protection up front.

We need to adjust the offense for more quick hitches and run more often to keep the defense honest. Play calling has been forgetable lately, don't know how many are check downs at the line by Andy,
but he needs to be able to step up in the pocket to be successful...he;s struggling to even find a receiver on rollouts.

He'll be fine...still a learning youngster.

This is one of the keys for Andy right now with our line being the way it is. We've got to mix in a few rollouts to keep his confidence up.

[eliminate08]

Originally Posted by bradfritz21

I think Jones is developing more and more and is capable of being a reliable number two, but I think that Gresham and Charles should be our number two(s).

Two tight end sets kill a 3-4 (and pretty much any other defense) and Gresham and Charles are great receivers. Look how the Patriots have killed it over the years with tight ends like Gronk and Hernandez. They don't have a true number two (or even a run game) and they're still the best offense in the league.

It also keeps the linebackers and safeties in check, which then we give the ball to the Law Firm a few yards deep, let him pick his spot, and he explodes up in there. Which is, in theory, how the West Coast Offense is supposed to work.

Hawkins is a hell of a slot receiver but not a #2.

With everything I pointed out, though, I'm not real worried about it.

Originally Posted by BengalTrucker

If we go with a 2 TE set, Hawkins would be a good slot type WR to put with that. Like how NE uses Welker.

I would also rotate Jones in with Green. You can't cover both of them, and the TEs without going to a Dime package.

Definately good thoughts here. Love this.

[fortyyearfan]

Originally Posted by BengalsFan024

that timing clock in their heads that so important starts to speed up when under constant pressure. Dalton needs to calm down and just let the ball rip... He plays very conservative at times and doesnt always take shots or trust his WRs will be where they should.

So either that trust needs to build Or andy just needs to let it fly.

Although his lack of mistakes have kept us in games all year but sometimes the lack of trying for the big play takes away alot of the punch.

I will say this, andy dalton has started to scare me and heres why. watching him play lately, he seems to be herky-jerky in his movement, not smooth and confident like i thought he would be. he has baled from the pocket alot lately and that worries me. he was supposed to be super accurate on the run, thats what we were told about his skill-set.he appears to be afraid to take a hit or unsure of where to go with the ball. he seems to lose focus and appears to scramble to nowhere and misses seeing receivers when they are open or when he does see them the gap has almost closed and he just throws it out of bounds, which ticks me off to no end.he has to learn to make something positive out of every play. if its not there, run toward the end zone, dude. get something.i say a qb that regressed last week and it was like his head was not all in at times. not all the time, but seems since cook came back he is struggling. he needs to find his receivers in the short passing game, ie the westcoast style like he is suppose to be so good at. i sure hope i see a MUCH IMPROVED DALTON THIS TIME.my guess he will not be and will go back to what we have watched lately. there is something wrong with him. i think its in his head. he needs to be more confident and much smoother.too much being a helter-skelter dude. can't be like that. way too many over the head throws. big ben usually hits his guy dead on.andy has left alot of points on the field last three games. his receivers are open for the long ball,he just overthrows them.we go as he goes. period!!!!

[degolfisfun]

Originally Posted by WeezyBengal

Its pretty evident that ever since Sanu went down, our offense has been anything but dangerous. I think Sanu can fill the role of number 2 receiver next year when he is healthy, but someone needs to step up for the remaining season and get open on a consistent basis.

AJ is literally being taken out of games because no other receivers on this roster pose even a slight threat. His production and the offenses production as a whole have dropped off when Sanu got hurt. I know Marvin Jones and Baby Hawk are fan favorites, but they are just incapable of getting open and cant catch the ball consistently. They have no business being the number two receiver out there until they prove otherwise.

So, who steps up for the Bengals the rest of the way? Is anyone even capable of stepping up?

I think Sanu will continue to prove he is a more than capable Slot receiver for years to come. However I remain frustrated over how the Bengals have failed to address needs in the #2 WR area. Simpson was certainly adequate but we decided to move on for 2012. OK ..... but were or are Tate, Binns, Whalen, and the rookie Jones really the answer for 2012? Gruden & Co. have told us several times how great Binns and Tate are but it hasn't translated to the field since Game#1. Marvin Jones is raw and On and Off the injury list so he is not the answer this year. (Maybe next year.) We're now Week #16 and I don't see the situation as any better than it was in Week #1 or Training Camp or prior to the Draft. We need an additional piece of talent and I haven't seen us address it yet. When Sanu went down, we went with Herron as the replacement. Binns was cut to allow room for Josh Brown. Two opportunities in the last 3-4 weeks and a zillion opportunities in the last 6-9 months to add WR talent. It has come close to biting us in San Diego and Philly. And probably will end us biting us before long. Just think it is a shame with all this other talent at other positions that we don't address the weak link. Prediction - watch what happens next spring. The Bengals will conclude they need to upgrade the #2 WR position and they will have the same (or even more) names and bodies than they started 2012 with: Tate, Whalen, Hawkins, Sanu, Jones, and Green. Why were Tate and Whalen and Binns so great in 2012 but not so great in 2013?

[degolfisfun]

Originally Posted by fortyyearfan

I will say this, andy dalton has started to scare me and heres why. watching him play lately, he seems to be herky-jerky in his movement, not smooth and confident like i thought he would be. he has baled from the pocket alot lately and that worries me. he was supposed to be super accurate on the run, thats what we were told about his skill-set.he appears to be afraid to take a hit or unsure of where to go with the ball. he seems to lose focus and appears to scramble to nowhere and misses seeing receivers when they are open or when he does see them the gap has almost closed and he just throws it out of bounds, which ticks me off to no end.he has to learn to make something positive out of every play. if its not there, run toward the end zone, dude. get something.i say a qb that regressed last week and it was like his head was not all in at times. not all the time, but seems since cook came back he is struggling. he needs to find his receivers in the short passing game, ie the westcoast style like he is suppose to be so good at. i sure hope i see a MUCH IMPROVED DALTON THIS TIME.my guess he will not be and will go back to what we have watched lately. there is something wrong with him. i think its in his head. he needs to be more confident and much smoother.too much being a helter-skelter dude. can't be like that. way too many over the head throws. big ben usually hits his guy dead on.andy has left alot of points on the field last three games. his receivers are open for the long ball,he just overthrows them.we go as he goes. period!!!!

There's no question he has not looked good the last 2-3 games. I'll even accept the use of the word "regressed". You are right on every point but I think he misses Sanu and is not confident with receivers not named Green or Gresham. (Not his fault.) If he plays similarily against Pit, yes I think we will lose. But I think this game is so important to him and the Steeler/Raven elephant on his back, that he will be mentally sharp. If he isn't sharp, I don't know what happens to his career. He has to learn to improve but how long do we give him? You don't go to many playoffs going 0-8 against your two biggest rivals.

[RedGreenShow]

Originally Posted by Rattler

He's rushing his throws because the protection isn't holding up well. When he does have time, his mechanics are off and he's throwing off his back foot, which is probably a by product of the pass
protection up front.

We need to adjust the offense for more quick hitches and run more often to keep the defense honest. Play calling has been forgetable lately, don't know how many are check downs at the line by Andy,
but he needs to be able to step up in the pocket to be successful...he;s struggling to even find a receiver on rollouts.

He'll be fine...still a learning youngster.

I totally agree, Philly had him on his heels the whole first half. It all starts up front and I noticed that receivers WERE open, Andy just needs more time in the pocket to do his check-downs. Hopefully the offensive line will be well rested and give him more time against pi$$burgh.

[McC]

Originally Posted by fortyyearfan

EXACTLY,well said, new england runs two te's and they put 30 plus up on everybody every week.# 84 flat out scares me. he just makes mistakes in critical situations and i just do not trust him when we need him the most.i hope this dude doesn't cost us the game sunday. it would'nt surprise me. he scares me big time.i trust orlson charles much more to hold on to the rock. i can;t figure out gresham, he is so big and strong and yet he lacks concentration or something. the dude makes way too many mistakes, like he is mentality challenged. who knows. if he has a big game sunday, we win.

NE went to that offense because Bill looked at what he had and found a way to make it unstoppable. Jay is nowhere near that level as an OC right now. It seems to me that this is what good coaching is. Step one--find ways to use what you have to beat the other guy. You don't have a real answer on the outside, find a way to use who you do have.

Don't know if Jay doesn't have the freedom to improvise or the ability or desire to. We've seen flashes of it. But the offense goes into too many lulls and sputters. A good offense doesn't keep going three and out for over a quarter. Sometimes it's the QB, sometimes the receivers, sometimes the plays. I just don't understand these group funks. Can't have them this week.

[Mexal]

Originally Posted by Joelist

Not again.....the Anti-Dalton trolling is both false and boring.

We do have a giant hole at #2 WR. Jones so far has failed (too many drops, routes not run correctly). The reason Sanu was so effective and made the offense so much better was he ran the route correctly and CAUGHT THE BALL. Unfortunately Gresham has a lot of the same issues (and add fumblitis and his holding call per game). Hawk is a gadget player - a very good gadget player but nonetheless a gadget player.

I'm not trolling about Dalton. What I said is entirely 100% accurate.

Since you seem to believe Jones is running the routes incorrectly, can you please point to a game situation where this happened?

[Bengalzona]

Ooops! Wrong thread.

I thought from the title this was related to Fred's colonoscopy thread!

[WeezyBengal]

Originally Posted by eliminate08

Definately good thoughts here. Love this.

I like the two end sets and I think we need to involve more screen passes into the gameplan this week. Everytime we run one they work beautifully. Whether they are to AJ. Hawking, or Gresham, every receiver seems capable of running and executing them. They usually go for at least 10 yards a pop it seems.

[khamla]

If we draft one we have to draft one HIGH, like #1 pick.

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by khamla

If we draft one we have to draft one HIGH, like #1 pick.

why draft one when we Have Sanu...

Sanu and Green will be Like Chad and TJ 2.0...

its just unfortanate he got hurt.

We need to focus on other areas in the draft next year.

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by Mexal

I'm not trolling about Dalton. What I said is entirely 100% accurate.

Since you seem to believe Jones is running the routes incorrectly, can you please point to a game situation where this happened?

Daltons inaccuracy of late has been directly related to increased pressure which is a direct result of this ******** center rotation.

[w8ing 4 '08]

It's not completely necessary to have a designated #2 receiver that receives a large majority of the snaps. If you look at teams around the league, a lot of them have to compensate for lack of play-makers with great play-calling. This applies on both sides of the ball; not every team has pro bowlers at every position and it's unrealistic to expect that.

The best teams in the league work with what they have, and that is typically attributed to coaching.

Look at San Francisco pre-Harbaugh; a lot of the player personnel is the same, but the coaching makes up for lack of play-makers (sound familiar?).

Our problem is not the lack of players; we've seen Hawkins, Gresham, even Marvin Jones all make big plays. The problem is consistency with these players, and that traces back to coaching.

Unfortunately, under the Marvin Lewis regime, the Bengals will always have to overcome mediocre coaching and play-calling.

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by w8ing 4 '08

It's not completely necessary to have a designated #2 receiver that receives a large majority of the snaps. If you look at teams around the league, a lot of them have to compensate for lack of play-makers with great play-calling. This applies on both sides of the ball; not every team has pro bowlers at every position and it's unrealistic to expect that.

The best teams in the league work with what they have, and that is typically attributed to coaching.

Look at San Francisco pre-Harbaugh; a lot of the player personnel is the same, but the coaching makes up for lack of play-makers (sound familiar?).

Our problem is not the lack of players; we've seen Hawkins, Gresham, even Marvin Jones all make big plays. The problem is consistency with these players, and that traces back to coaching.

Unfortunately, under the Marvin Lewis regime, the Bengals will always have to overcome mediocre coaching and play-calling.

When no other WR catchs a forward pass for a whole game you need another WR.

[w8ing 4 '08]

Originally Posted by BengalsFan024

When no other WR catchs a forward pass for a whole game you need another WR.

I don't agree with that. I blame Dalton's tendencies to target Green and Gresh over other receivers and his reluctance to hit another target (or the open man).

Also, the coaches should be able to iron out the inconsistencies with the passing game. The pass blocking has been horrible the past three weeks, and it shows when Dalton panics in the pocket.

Gresham needs to play like he's capable of playing, and we need to find more ways to get Hawkins the ball in open space (broken record here).

Marvin Jones is a model deep threat, but his inconsistencies have to do with the fact that he's a rookie. Don't jump the gun too fast on this guy.

Underachievement is synonymous with the Bengals coaching staff. Don't try to tell me signing one more player instantly fixes the passing game because history proves that it does not with this team.

[eliminate08]

Originally Posted by WeezyBengal

I like the two end sets and I think we need to involve more screen passes into the gameplan this week. Everytime we run one they work beautifully. Whether they are to AJ. Hawking, or Gresham, every receiver seems capable of running and executing them. They usually go for at least 10 yards a pop it seems.

Yeah, the one thing our Offense is really good at is screens cause we have good blockers
downfield and dangerous players to use them. I am with you in wanting to see more of them
from here on out along with more 2 TE sets.

Hawk can take one all the way with his speed as well.

[degolfisfun]

Originally Posted by w8ing 4 '08

It's not completely necessary to have a designated #2 receiver that receives a large majority of the snaps. If you look at teams around the league, a lot of them have to compensate for lack of play-makers with great play-calling. This applies on both sides of the ball; not every team has pro bowlers at every position and it's unrealistic to expect that.

The best teams in the league work with what they have, and that is typically attributed to coaching.

Look at San Francisco pre-Harbaugh; a lot of the player personnel is the same, but the coaching makes up for lack of play-makers (sound familiar?).

Our problem is not the lack of players; we've seen Hawkins, Gresham, even Marvin Jones all make big plays. The problem is consistency with these players, and that traces back to coaching.

Unfortunately, under the Marvin Lewis regime, the Bengals will always have to overcome mediocre coaching and play-calling.

Why is Marvin's name invoked here? He has absolutely nothing - or very little - to do with Whalen, Tate, or Jones getting open and catching the ball. That's much more the fault of these 3 individuals and Gruden and Urban. TJ, and Chad and Chris Henry and AJ Green certainly didn't fail during Marvin's era.

Gruden is the one who said he had great receivers with Whalen, Tate, Binns, and Jones. Problem is he was covering up for somebody or not telling the truth IMO. To his credit, he and the team have stuck with this creed through the loss of Binns and Sanu. I'll still think he is fibbing and that the fantastic trio above are below average and in need of upgrade (and not Hazelton). He's missed several opportunities (IMO) in the last 3-4 weeks with Stallworth, Burress, Edwards, Branch, et al ...... opting instead for Herron as Sanu's replacement. OK, he can believe Whalen and Tate will do more for this team than Edwards (4 catches last week?) and others. However, I'll bet he finally swallows the bird next spring though and decides that we need an upgrade at WR. Problem is that will be too late for 2012's playoff run.

[Ian Demagii]

With Binns gone, Tate, and Whalen (I hope going) the WR's are:AJ, Sanu, Jones, and Hawkins. There are no WR's on the practicce squad-we would probably need to draft at least one and sign a FA. We are short on bodies!

Our Record with FA WR's is not very good-in fact the only one who really played as advertised was TO.

Ian

[SmoothD]

Originally Posted by Lygraf

i'd like to see Charles getting more looks. if we don't have the horsepower at WR to get the job done, i'm not sure why we aren't upping TE production. why not run two TE sets?

I have said the same thing on the 2 TE sets since the Washington game. Orson is built like Daniel Coates, but with better hands.

[w8ing 4 '08]

Originally Posted by degolfisfun

Why is Marvin's name invoked here? He has absolutely nothing - or very little - to do with Whalen, Tate, or Jones getting open and catching the ball. That's much more the fault of these 3 individuals and Gruden and Urban. TJ, and Chad and Chris Henry and AJ Green certainly didn't fail during Marvin's era.

Gruden is the one who said he had great receivers with Whalen, Tate, Binns, and Jones. Problem is he was covering up for somebody or not telling the truth IMO. To his credit, he and the team have stuck with this creed through the loss of Binns and Sanu. I'll still think he is fibbing and that the fantastic trio above are below average and in need of upgrade (and not Hazelton). He's missed several opportunities (IMO) in the last 3-4 weeks with Stallworth, Burress, Edwards, Branch, et al ...... opting instead for Herron as Sanu's replacement. OK, he can believe Whalen and Tate will do more for this team than Edwards (4 catches last week?) and others. However, I'll bet he finally swallows the bird next spring though and decides that we need an upgrade at WR. Problem is that will be too late for 2012's playoff run.

While I see your point, last I checked, Marvin hired Jay Gruden so that would trace back to him.

Furthermore, do you really want Donte Stallworth, Plaxico Burress or Braylon Edwards on this team? Do you even remember TO? Sure, those guys might be better than what we have on the field when it comes to raw talent, but wouldn't you rather develop depth by letting players who actually know the system get some actual playing time in a real game? Sure, the players you mentioned might provide a quick fix and get us a few catches, but at what cost...

I do not believe our receiving corps is bad enough to warrant signing another fool or washed up diva, and refuse to believe that it's not the coaching staff's fault that our guys right now aren't stepping up.

[bengalsfan2008]

Originally Posted by Abspara

At this stage of the season there is no one who could step up. perhaps next year a FA can be acquired if the money is authorized to be spent.

greg jennings...dream scenario. He was talking about writings on the wall and whatnot. I highly doubt the Packers will use the franchise tag on a receiver that will most likely be their #3 WR.

[graphicguy]

I'm putting this on Dalton. We have speedsters, YAC guys, possession guys. In short, there's plenty of tallent to take over the 2nd WR role.

Ever since Gruden said Dalton has to hold onto the ball longer to let the play develop, Dalton misses the open WR early in the play development. The result has been sacks and fumbles.

Andy is best at "hike...see....fire"! We've seen it too many times where he'll spend so much time looking down ALL of the WRs in his progression, he ends up on his back.