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  #51  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:58 AM
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bengals Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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Originally Posted by Dabo614 View Post
#1 That is exactly what is happening now, double/triple AJ because nobody else is really stepping up (like L Coles in 09) But we had a stout defense in 09 and a much better run game and still got smashed.

#2 I feel your pain,,,we see the same problems and call them out as we ultimately know the end result yet get called haters, debby downers,,negative nancy, ect ect....

#3 This couldnt be more true,,,Zimmer is our best coach right now, and even he sometimes makes me scratch my head,,grudens game just isnt very well right now and i think this whole board knows my feelings about marv.

#4 Despite what many on here think, i actually agree with this,,as long as our D doesnt fold and allow 30+ points and our offense at least looks respectable, i believe we have a legit shot at our first playoff win in 2 decades, which is why i wanted the texans over denver or pats because i dont believe we have a chance in hell of beating those two. If i could see some more level headed calls from coaching, and more consistency on offense then i would believe we have a shot at beating one of those two teams, but i just dont see it.
I believe as fans if we had seen the passing game take off these last 4-5 games, all of us would not be so concerned.but we haven't and i think even marvin lewis is ticked off at this offense. i sometimes watch andy with the plays that are called and i think at times he is not happy with what jay gruden is calling. he looks ticked off at times when a play doesn't work.this game will be on jay gruden to get it right and for this offense to make what is called work.will they??? some of the time. all we can wish for is it will be enough. they will be coming after dalton big time and until they can run the rock and mix in the pass it won't change. i am concerned. i just do not see our team scoring a ton of points against this defense. i see their qb lighting it up.rey rey MUST stop the run QUICKER.he is allowing the ball carrier get up on him and beyond him too much. he is better than last year, but still not good enough.we need to draft a better mlb.we can win this one, but with all the mistakes this team makes, it could go either way FAST.
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  #52  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

This would be the perfect game to get some screens and outlet passes going too.

With JJ Watt looking to collapse the pocket and work the edge they'd better have a good game plan for it.

It's concerning because he plays the side Dalton always tries to roll out or escape pressure on.

It might serve our offense to design some automatic roll outs/bootlegs to the left instead of the right.

This would be a good time to get Charles going and Marvin Jones on some comeback routes.

I just hope Gruden can work on some routes where either BJGE/Peerman/Leonard can get around the line to middle of the field and give Andy some outlet or checkdown options.
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  #53  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:39 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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This would be the perfect game to get some screens and outlet passes going too.

With JJ Watt looking to collapse the pocket and work the edge they'd better have a good game plan for it.

It's concerning because he plays the side Dalton always tries to roll out or escape pressure on.

It might serve our offense to design some automatic roll outs/bootlegs to the left instead of the right.

This would be a good time to get Charles going and Marvin Jones on some comeback routes.

I just hope Gruden can work on some routes where either BJGE/Peerman/Leonard can get around the line to middle of the field and give Andy some outlet or checkdown options.
When we try screens, they fail miserably (never seems to get blocked correctly). I attribute this to a lack of in-game practice of that play.

Agreed that Gruden needs to GAMEPLAN a way for Dalton to avoid getting sacked. Gruden seems to have problem gameplanning much of anything, especially on the fly. Gotta be the worst adjustment-maker in football.
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  #54  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:51 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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When we try screens, they fail miserably (never seems to get blocked correctly). I attribute this to a lack of in-game practice of that play.

Agreed that Gruden needs to GAMEPLAN a way for Dalton to avoid getting sacked. Gruden seems to have problem gameplanning much of anything, especially on the fly. Gotta be the worst adjustment-maker in football.
Yeah I agree about the blocking. Our O-line with the exception of Whit is not very good(execution-wise)at movement blocking.

Our FB Pressley was a bright spot as a blocker so he'll be missed.

If any of you watch other teams play you'll see what I mean.

The O-line is just not very good at shifting for screen plays.

There is talent on the O-line so I don't see where the problem lies. Coaching?

Gresham and Charles could be big factors in making this work as well.

All they need to do is throw some good contact blocks.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:52 AM
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bengals Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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When we try screens, they fail miserably (never seems to get blocked correctly). I attribute this to a lack of in-game practice of that play.

Agreed that Gruden needs to GAMEPLAN a way for Dalton to avoid getting sacked. Gruden seems to have problem gameplanning much of anything, especially on the fly. Gotta be the worst adjustment-maker in football.
Yet good enough to make the playoffs in his first two seasons in the position as well as a pro bowl for a rookie QB and back to back pro bowls for rookie/second year reciever. Good enough to have his second year QB putting up a first two seasons that is just behind the first two seasons of Marino and Manning.

Work to be done? Of course. ...no matter how good or bad something is there is always room for improvement in some fashion.
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  #56  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:10 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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Here we are, entering the playoffs with a new QB and new WRs and the same old mess creeps up again. In 2009, Palmer fell off a cliff. His passes were ridiculously off-target, especially long passes. Teams just double-teamed Chad and took their (very good) chances one-on-one everywhere else. Palmer struggled all through the last 6 games and barely scooted past very weak defenses in Detroit, Kansas City, and Cleveland. The Cincy media blasted concerned fans and twisted our complaints into gripes over "style points." I sent an email to J Reedy about his story where he referred to Cincy's over-reliance on the run as a "strategy." I told him that "strategy" would get Cincy a quick exit in the playoffs. He responded about how disgruntled and *****y Bengals fans had become. Well guess what story he wrote the day after the Jets loss? It sure wasn't a defense of Lewis's "strategy." the passing game inexplicably collapsed and Cincy had no way of coming back against the Jets.

I see the same pattern occurring. Again the passing game is atrocious, and again it is overshadowed by wins. "Hey, we're 7-1 in the last 8 games, watcha cryin' about, fumetti?" Well, I don't want to see history repeat itself this year. Last year Cincy had a rough time at the end of the season and went into Houston limping a bit offensively. We're doing it again this year. Dalton's been sacked how many times in the last month, 17? Dalton threw 10 long passes vs Pitt and connected on just 3? (The only important pass vs Pitt was the last one.) And nothing looked better vs Balt. One good drive that started on the Balt 42 or so--after Balt had started substituting on defense.

There is something terrible going on with our passing game. Most of the time it seems we alternate between three results, esp on longer passes: (1) Dalton gets sacked, (2) Dalton misses by a mile, or (3) receivers get the drops. That's a lot of problem areas packed into those results.

Gruden has done a terrible job in second games against teams in a season. So far, his offense has performed WORSE each time. Our recent wins over Balt and Pitt were in spite of the offense, not on the back of it. Defense is carrying us right now. To me, this shows he's just not a very good strategist. He has one plan, if it works we look great--but if they counter it, he never has a successful response. In that regard, we get horribly outcoached all the time.

My worry is, we faced a dreadful OL (and weak D) in Philly, and came way too close to losing that game (their turnovers won that game for us). On paper, we have most of the advantages against Houston--which doesn't seem to bode well for us. But we can overcome all of that by getting the passing game back on track.

This week is on Gruden. He's the OC. He's gotta get the passing game fixed. If he does and we win, he deserves many accolades. But if he doesn't fix this thing and get the passing game working and come up with solutions to Houston's counters to his gameplan, then we gotta get a new OC. It's his job. He's the one to hold accountable if Dalton & Co. play on Saturday the way they've been playing of late.

I think we'll win if the offense plays alright. But if it's another week of sack, incompletion, 1 yard run, sack, incompletion, 1 yard run, etc... then I don't think we'll win and don't think Gruden deserves to come back next year.
I am not disagreeing with the offense struggles, but it needs to be said again and again......DEFENSE AND SPECIAL TEAMS WIN FOOTBALL GAMES.

If that were NOT the case, the 2000 Ravens, the 2002 Buccaneers, and the 2011 Giants (9-7) could NEVER have won a playoff game, let alone the Super Bowl!!!
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  #57  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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I am not disagreeing with the offense struggles, but it needs to be said again and again......DEFENSE AND SPECIAL TEAMS WIN FOOTBALL GAMES.

If that were NOT the case, the 2000 Ravens, the 2002 Buccaneers, and the 2011 Giants (9-7) could NEVER have won a playoff game, let alone the Super Bowl!!!
Don't forget BALL PROTECTION.

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  #58  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:17 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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Don't forget BALL PROTECTION.

LOL +1

I'm 59 years old and people asked me if I watched the ball drop last night, my standard reply is that I watch balls drop further and further every day!!!
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  #59  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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In 09 our passing g game was hot until Henry got hurt. Sane thing happened this year when SanU got hurt.
Sanu is nothing like Henry, people are way over-rating Sanu based off 4 games. I get it the 4tds are great, but that's all we are looking at there. Henry was way more talented.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:40 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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Sanu is nothing like Henry, people are way over-rating Sanu based off 4 games. I get it the 4tds are great, but that's all we are looking at there. Henry was way more talented.

I don't believe that he was comparing Sanu to Henry in terms of skill set, but rather the situation of the team being limited in number of viable receiving weapons. In both instances, the loss of one particular player seems to have made a significant difference in the teams passing effectiveness.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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I am not disagreeing with the offense struggles, but it needs to be said again and again......DEFENSE AND SPECIAL TEAMS WIN FOOTBALL GAMES.

If that were NOT the case, the 2000 Ravens, the 2002 Buccaneers, and the 2011 Giants (9-7) could NEVER have won a playoff game, let alone the Super Bowl!!!
I keep hearing if you win two of the three phases, you're probably gonna win. We've been doing just that. Yes, it would be great if the offense could step it up some. If they do, look out. But even if they don't, we can still win with the other two as long as the offense doesn't give the game away.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:52 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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When we try screens, they fail miserably (never seems to get blocked correctly). I attribute this to a lack of in-game practice of that play.

Agreed that Gruden needs to GAMEPLAN a way for Dalton to avoid getting sacked. Gruden seems to have problem gameplanning much of anything, especially on the fly. Gotta be the worst adjustment-maker in football.
We're no good with RB screens. We have had some success with WR and TE screens. Can't understand why we can't run a RB screen. Isn't that one of the staples of a WCO?
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  #63  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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I hope the answer to the #2 spot is already on the team.

I'm not as confident as you sound, but Sanu sure was promising. Marvin Jones drops too many passes right now for me to be confident Saturday. If he gets his hands right, he can do some damage. Houston just has J-Jo and not a lot else.

There's nothing about Houston's secondary right now that says Dalton can't get at least 200 yards and 2 TDs. Their biggest gun is Watts and our OL has been having a fire sale on sacks--plentiful and cheap.

I really believe we are young on all fronts of the offense, and with a little time we will be very good with the personel we have on the field. Marvin has really made some great plays to keep our winning streak on a roll.. He does need to focus on his hands more I would agree... WHO DEY!!!
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  #64  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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I agree, right now AJ is the only threat teams worry about yet he still got better and is balling,,imagine how much better he would be if we had a viable #2 as well as pockets that lasted a little longer for andy,,,,WOW i could realisticly see him leading the NFL in all WR cats,,,catches, yards,,TDs

With out a doubt he could lead the NFL in all that you stated he is so good right now and hopefully will only get better!!

WHO DEY!!
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  #65  
Old 01-01-2013, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

The answer: GRESHAM GRESHAM AND MORE GRESHAM

QB getting a little inaccurate? Throw it to your monster sized TE.

Screens not looking polished? Just play 'plain old keep away' and throw it to your TE

TE not doing a great job blocking? Throw it to him

#2 WR still developing? Throw it to your TE.

Getting picked at the line (remember last year against Houston)? Throw high arcing short passes to your tall TE

Not winning in the playoffs and lacking offensive rhythm even when you can pound out some yards on the ground? THROW IT TO YOUR TE
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:02 PM
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The answer: GRESHAM GRESHAM AND MORE GRESHAM

QB getting a little inaccurate? Throw it to your monster sized TE.

Screens not looking polished? Just play 'plain old keep away' and throw it to your TE

TE not doing a great job blocking? Throw it to him

#2 WR still developing? Throw it to your TE.

Getting picked at the line (remember last year against Houston)? Throw high arcing short passes to your tall TE

Not winning in the playoffs and lacking offensive rhythm even when you can pound out some yards on the ground? THROW IT TO YOUR TE
Hard to argue this.
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  #67  
Old 01-01-2013, 12:04 PM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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Originally Posted by BoomerFan View Post
The answer: GRESHAM GRESHAM AND MORE GRESHAM

QB getting a little inaccurate? Throw it to your monster sized TE.

Screens not looking polished? Just play 'plain old keep away' and throw it to your TE

TE not doing a great job blocking? Throw it to him

#2 WR still developing? Throw it to your TE.

Getting picked at the line (remember last year against Houston)? Throw high arcing short passes to your tall TE

Not winning in the playoffs and lacking offensive rhythm even when you can pound out some yards on the ground? THROW IT TO YOUR TE
They need to throw it to him early. Also 1st and 2nd downs sometimes. Even if he drops one. Don't forget about Gresham.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:08 PM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

Number 1 mantra for Andy Dalton:


" 84 is my friend, 84 is my Friend,84 IS MY FRIEND!"


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Old 01-01-2013, 12:10 PM
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bengals Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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Originally Posted by BoomerFan View Post
The answer: GRESHAM GRESHAM AND MORE GRESHAM

QB getting a little inaccurate? Throw it to your monster sized TE.

Screens not looking polished? Just play 'plain old keep away' and throw it to your TE

TE not doing a great job blocking? Throw it to him

#2 WR still developing? Throw it to your TE.

Getting picked at the line (remember last year against Houston)? Throw high arcing short passes to your tall TE

Not winning in the playoffs and lacking offensive rhythm even when you can pound out some yards on the ground? THROW IT TO YOUR TE
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Hard to argue this.
The only argument that could be made would be Gresham. ...Charles. .....Gresham......maybe this is a perfect time to get Charles more involved in the game plan. Charles has shown to have good hands and abilities in his limited time. I believe utilizing Charles more in tandem with Gresham could help ease the pressure on Marvin Jones and make him more productive as well.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:14 PM
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Sanu is nothing like Henry, people are way over-rating Sanu based off 4 games. I get it the 4tds are great, but that's all we are looking at there. Henry was way more talented.

Sanu had 5 TD's in 5 games this year ? Must of forgot that he passes the ball too. Runs it out of the wildcat as well.

Now I do like Henry as well. But he is not walking through the locker room door for us. God rest his soul.

But as good as he was, seemed to get suspended at the worst possible time.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:16 PM
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The only argument that could be made would be Gresham. ...Charles. .....Gresham......maybe this is a perfect time to get Charles more involved in the game plan. Charles has shown to have good hands and abilities in his limited time. I believe utilizing Charles more in tandem with Gresham could help ease the pressure on Marvin Jones and make him more productive as well.
+1.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:16 PM
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They need to throw it to him early. Also 1st and 2nd downs sometimes. Even if he drops one. Don't forget about Gresham.

I've mentioned a couple times this season, that when Gresham gets thrown to early in the game, he seems to continue to have a good game, even his blocking seems to improve. When he is not used in the first drive or two, his attention and focus seem to wander.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:40 PM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

Fumetti, lay off the comics.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:41 PM
Ian Demagii Ian Demagii is offline
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

(response for NFL grognards only..the rest of you will just want to skip it...Happy New Year!)

Now that I have that off my chest, the failure of the passing game is 5 fold:

1) Gruden needs to develop some signature routes for his receivers and in this he has failed. This is pretty harsh though, who would have ever forseen the swoon of Binns and disappearance of Tate? Sanu was developing until he was hurt. Jones is just now learning to play and has a lot of raw talent but his route tree must be very simple. It is really unfair to put this on Gruden, however; Hawkins is a huge asset Gruden has not found a way to use-this Gruden owns-Gresham has huge big play potential and Gruden has not found a way to get him the ball deep down the field-this too Gruden owns (although teams pay a great deal of attention to Gresham (NFL Defensive coordinators didn't get their jobs by being dense or unobservant)).

2) Dalton has a bad case of "Esiason's disease." This malady is particular to NFL QB's who lock onto one receiver (Green) to the almost total exclusion of any others. When forced to choose other receiver the QB manifests happy feet , and premature release to dump down receivers-QB's who can not recover from the dreaded Esaison's disease need to lose their jobs!!! (another symptom of Esaisons disease is a penchant to always throw the DAMN BALL HIGH!!!)....

3) This offensive line is not particularly good at pass blocking. Center right now is a liability and a new stud haas needs to be drafted. Andre Smith and Andrew Whitworth are much better blocking for the run than in pass blocking. Both struggle against speed rushing DE's and LB blitzes. This often forces Gresham to remain in to block. This is another problem Gruden has not solved. We will see Conner Barwin blitz all day on Saturday for no other reason than to keep Gresham out of the pass pattern. This is poor offensive planning.

4) Back's catching passes out of the backfield are not dynamic runners after the catch ala Ray Rice. This is another serious need to be addressed in the draft. As with the TE, running backs are often kept in to pass protect to help the very ponderous tackles who have many false start penalties because they (rightly) are concerned with being beaten around the edge. Same for Gresham who is often the hot read and realizes quick DE's (like Elvis Dummerville) are going to speed around Andre Smith and is trying to get down field ASAP.

5) The receivers are all "young'ns. Green, Jones, Hawkins (Sanu ), even Whalen (by the amount of playing time)-this is their first or second rodeo and it aint Tom Brady or Aaron Rogers slinging it to them either....think about putting the Bengals receivers on the Patriots or Packers for a second...Only AJ Green is going to be the same (GREATNESS!).

Think about Gresham allowed to run down the field, the quicknss and speed of Hawkin's really exploited! Jones and Sanu allowed to learn from the start with a QB who makes THEM look good rather than other other way around. Hell, how good would Cam Newton look with the Bengals receiving corp????

The passing game is a mess but not for the same reasons-then the Bengals outside were devoid of talent after Chad Johnson (with Chris's passing... )
now we are loaded with a very diverse & terrific talent set, but it takes more than just receivers winning....

sorry for the very long response but I have tried to be complete as possible...

Ian
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:50 PM
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Default Re: Passing game looks alot like the mess of 2009...

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Originally Posted by fumetti View Post
Here we are, entering the playoffs with a new QB and new WRs and the same old mess creeps up again. In 2009, Palmer fell off a cliff. His passes were ridiculously off-target, especially long passes. Teams just double-teamed Chad and took their (very good) chances one-on-one everywhere else. Palmer struggled all through the last 6 games and barely scooted past very weak defenses in Detroit, Kansas City, and Cleveland. The Cincy media blasted concerned fans and twisted our complaints into gripes over "style points." I sent an email to J Reedy about his story where he referred to Cincy's over-reliance on the run as a "strategy." I told him that "strategy" would get Cincy a quick exit in the playoffs. He responded about how disgruntled and *****y Bengals fans had become. Well guess what story he wrote the day after the Jets loss? It sure wasn't a defense of Lewis's "strategy." the passing game inexplicably collapsed and Cincy had no way of coming back against the Jets.

I see the same pattern occurring. Again the passing game is atrocious, and again it is overshadowed by wins. "Hey, we're 7-1 in the last 8 games, watcha cryin' about, fumetti?" Well, I don't want to see history repeat itself this year. Last year Cincy had a rough time at the end of the season and went into Houston limping a bit offensively. We're doing it again this year. Dalton's been sacked how many times in the last month, 17? Dalton threw 10 long passes vs Pitt and connected on just 3? (The only important pass vs Pitt was the last one.) And nothing looked better vs Balt. One good drive that started on the Balt 42 or so--after Balt had started substituting on defense.

There is something terrible going on with our passing game. Most of the time it seems we alternate between three results, esp on longer passes: (1) Dalton gets sacked, (2) Dalton misses by a mile, or (3) receivers get the drops. That's a lot of problem areas packed into those results.

Gruden has done a terrible job in second games against teams in a season. So far, his offense has performed WORSE each time. Our recent wins over Balt and Pitt were in spite of the offense, not on the back of it. Defense is carrying us right now. To me, this shows he's just not a very good strategist. He has one plan, if it works we look great--but if they counter it, he never has a successful response. In that regard, we get horribly outcoached all the time.

My worry is, we faced a dreadful OL (and weak D) in Philly, and came way too close to losing that game (their turnovers won that game for us). On paper, we have most of the advantages against Houston--which doesn't seem to bode well for us. But we can overcome all of that by getting the passing game back on track.

This week is on Gruden. He's the OC. He's gotta get the passing game fixed. If he does and we win, he deserves many accolades. But if he doesn't fix this thing and get the passing game working and come up with solutions to Houston's counters to his gameplan, then we gotta get a new OC. It's his job. He's the one to hold accountable if Dalton & Co. play on Saturday the way they've been playing of late.

I think we'll win if the offense plays alright. But if it's another week of sack, incompletion, 1 yard run, sack, incompletion, 1 yard run, etc... then I don't think we'll win and don't think Gruden deserves to come back next year.
I still DO NOT get why the rushed Cook back. The line was really doing well with Robinson.
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