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  #26  
Old 01-05-2013, 06:33 AM
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bengals Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Originally Posted by Bengals Fan For Life! View Post
Depth Depth Depth yes BUT NOT at corner at the EXPENSE of DL. Yes Pass happy league but the quickest way to QB is DL. Straight line...A to B. Premium positions on Defense are DE and CB but in that order. To help with pass defense DE's first and then CB's and I am of the opinion that we are NOT set on DE's.
So please explain the faults of our DEs. We have two young guys that are just coming into their own and could very well both end up being near the top of the league year in and year out. We are also a team that rotates heavily. The rotation has zero to do with talent and everything to do with Zimmer believing in fresh legs.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

I didn't say our starting DE's had faults. I said we weren't 'set on DEs.' Which isn't an indictment on their talent but on the quantity of them. There is no bigger fan of MJ and Dunlap than me. Geathers is on the way out, and possibly (we will pray otherwise), MJ. We should draft someone early to rotate in and to be developing so when MJ or Dunlap aren't available to injury or FA we aren't waiting. Position is too important.

DE is a unique position in the NFL, and especially in Zim's scheme, because it a premium and a rotating position. QB and LT are premium but rotating is counter productive. Not so with DE's
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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So please explain the faults of our DEs. We have two young guys that are just coming into their own and could very well both end up being near the top of the league year in and year out. We are also a team that rotates heavily. The rotation has zero to do with talent and everything to do with Zimmer believing in fresh legs.
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Originally Posted by Bengals Fan For Life! View Post
I didn't say our starting DE's had faults. I said we weren't 'set on DEs.' Which isn't an indictment on their talent but on the quantity of them. There is no bigger fan of MJ and Dunlap than me. Geathers is on the way out, and possibly (we will pray otherwise), MJ. We should draft someone early to rotate in and to be developing so when MJ or Dunlap aren't available to injury or FA we aren't waiting. Position is too important.

DE is a unique position in the NFL, and especially in Zim's scheme, because it a premium and a rotating position. QB and LT are premium but rotating is counter productive. Not so with DE's
I tend to agree with OSU on this reasoning. Fanane and Rucker were effective as well. So is Gilberry... who I should hope would return. Maybe perhaps since DT's like Atkins/Peko/Sims contribute to their success as much as they do to theirs... it's not such a high demand at this point.

If someone like say Fanane is recovered, it might not be a bad idea to bring him back(the money demand may be at a lower premium this time around as well). I'm sure he'd like to be back with Zimmer and the familiarity of the scheme/system.

Not to downplay the talent that we have at DE on this team. I just think the rotation factor(fresh legs)plays into the success of the D line as well.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:36 AM
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bengals Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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I didn't say our starting DE's had faults. I said we weren't 'set on DEs.' Which isn't an indictment on their talent but on the quantity of them. There is no bigger fan of MJ and Dunlap than me. Geathers is on the way out, and possibly (we will pray otherwise), MJ. We should draft someone early to rotate in and to be developing so when MJ or Dunlap aren't available to injury or FA we aren't waiting. Position is too important.

DE is a unique position in the NFL, and especially in Zim's scheme, because it a premium and a rotating position. QB and LT are premium but rotating is counter productive. Not so with DE's
There is no proof that Geathers is on his way out. It appears that Zimmer sure likes him more than many on these boards do. Dunlap may be listed as the starter but it is not hard to notice who is generally on the field on the first snap when our defense first takes the field.

MJ is going to be re-signed and I believe he is probably first priority. I as well hope this team brings back Gilberry on a multi year deal....6.5 snaps as a backup DE/DT is nothing to sniff at. I think Geathers would like to finish his career here and I think he understands his role. I think he is smart enough to understand the financial implications of his role as well. Say what you like but Geathers is our best DE against the run.

If we return MJ, Dunlap, and Gilberry then I do not see DE being addressed very early. There is also the consideration that even if Geathers is not here that Still is the type of player that could be productive in Geathers role in running situations on early downs.

Personally I think this dline is in very good shape.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:42 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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There is no proof that Geathers is on his way out. It appears that Zimmer sure likes him more than many on these boards do. Dunlap may be listed as the starter but it is not hard to notice who is generally on the field on the first snap when our defense first takes the field.

MJ is going to be re-signed and I believe he is probably first priority. I as well hope this team brings back Gilberry on a multi year deal....6.5 snaps as a backup DE/DT is nothing to sniff at. I think Geathers would like to finish his career here and I think he understands his role. I think he is smart enough to understand the financial implications of his role as well. Say what you like but Geathers is our best DE against the run.

If we return MJ, Dunlap, and Gilberry then I do not see DE being addressed very early. There is also the consideration that even if Geathers is not here that Still is the type of player that could be productive in Geathers role in running situations on early downs.

Personally I think this dline is in very good shape.
Good post OSU.

Geathers may not be a "beast"... but he sure is solid.

I was just thinking the other day about how reliable he is. No nagging injuries either.

It's more about the amount of money he is being paid at this point from a fan's point of view.
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  #31  
Old 01-05-2013, 07:55 AM
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bengals Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Good post OSU.

Geathers may not be a "beast"... but he sure is solid.

I was just thinking the other day about how reliable he is. No nagging injuries either.

It's more about the amount of money he is being paid at this point from a fan's point of view.
Exactly. You see all the griping about us not returning Justin Smith and what many will not admit is that the two are eerily similar. Smith actually, IMO, was being played out of position and should have been at LDE rather than RDE.

If I described a player at DE as:

Solid, strong against the run, not a ton of sacks but able to push the pocket and apply pressure, heady and rarely out of position, able to play inside on passing downs and get push. ..

Geathers and Smith.

One thing I think many fans need to move past is dollars as it is very apparent that coaching staffs value players far differently than most fans do.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:29 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

Ok. How about this angle: who is going to replace our starters if we lose MJ or Dual to injury or FA this yr or next? Who has the ceiling to be as good as they are?

I told a friend the other day I would t trade our DL top to bottom for anyother squad. Annoying that I have to defend this position because I said we could use a DE early in draft. I suppose your stance is we should refrain from drafting a DE. I disagree. I want a third beast at DE but I suppose I am in The minority.
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  #33  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:54 AM
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bengals Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Ok. How about this angle: who is going to replace our starters if we lose MJ or Dual to injury or FA this yr or next? Who has the ceiling to be as good as they are?

I told a friend the other day I would t trade our DL top to bottom for anyother squad. Annoying that I have to defend this position because I said we could use a DE early in draft. I suppose your stance is we should refrain from drafting a DE. I disagree. I want a third beast at DE but I suppose I am in The minority.
I have no problem drafting a DE. Just do not think at this time that it is priority. I would applaud a DE in the mid rounds. FA is before the draft and when MJ is wrapped up it will make a mid round DE the proper thing to do.

Our first round selection should be Giovani Bernard.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Ok. How about this angle: who is going to replace our starters if we lose MJ or Dual to injury or FA this yr or next? Who has the ceiling to be as good as they are?

I told a friend the other day I would t trade our DL top to bottom for anyother squad. Annoying that I have to defend this position because I said we could use a DE early in draft. I suppose your stance is we should refrain from drafting a DE. I disagree. I want a third beast at DE but I suppose I am in The minority.
Not saying he's as good... but did you know who Gilberry was before he was on this team?

Right... neither did I.

The guy has produced big time. Is it the system? Is it the other players on the line? Who knows? Maybe we just got lucky with him.

I'd much rather have some more dominance in the LB corps or an upgrade at safety. We certainly need some help at RB as well. There are other pressing needs than D linemen.
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  #35  
Old 01-05-2013, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Exactly. You see all the griping about us not returning Justin Smith and what many will not admit is that the two are eerily similar. Smith actually, IMO, was being played out of position and should have been at LDE rather than RDE.
Except that Smith literally had twice the production on a generally bad defense. You put him in this rotation and I guarantee you he would be a very dominant DE here.

Geathers is good against the run, and he generally plays mistake-free football, but he's not an explosive player. He's one of our highest paid players yet contributes like an average rotational DE. If he wants any more than half(at max) of his current contract to come back I say we let him walk and get a guy in the draft.

Even still, taking a DE in the 1st will likely be BPA, and you can never have enough pass rushers.
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  #36  
Old 01-05-2013, 10:10 AM
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bengals Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Except that Smith literally had twice the production on a generally bad defense. You put him in this rotation and I guarantee you he would be a very dominant DE here.

Geathers is good against the run, and he generally plays mistake-free football, but he's not an explosive player. He's one of our highest paid players yet contributes like an average rotational DE. If he wants any more than half(at max) of his current contract to come back I say we let him walk and get a guy in the draft.

Even still, taking a DE in the 1st will likely be BPA, and you can never have enough pass rushers.
In the 4-3 scheme I would take Gilberry over Smith.

When you state he had more production on a bad defense you could also state that with so many player makers it decreases the seeming product of Geathers when it comes to black and white stats.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:34 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Our starting lineup in my opinion is already on our roster. In 2013 who would have a problem with us going into week 1 with our corners looking like this?
Leon Hall
Dre Kirkpatrick
Adam Jones
Terrence Newman
Jason Allen
Brandon Ghee
I think Ghee will be here and will be a solid contributor. The kid from Iowa will help too (Slater ?) Allen has been a total waste. He's goneI
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:36 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Except that Smith literally had twice the production on a generally bad defense. You put him in this rotation and I guarantee you he would be a very dominant DE here.

Geathers is good against the run, and he generally plays mistake-free football, but he's not an explosive player. He's one of our highest paid players yet contributes like an average rotational DE. If he wants any more than half(at max) of his current contract to come back I say we let him walk and get a guy in the draft.

Even still, taking a DE in the 1st will likely be BPA, and you can never have enough pass rushers.
i HEAR HOW GOOD gEATHERS IS AGAINST THE RUN BUT HE'S ONLY MADE 31 TACKLES. i KNOW HE'S WELL LIKED AND RESPECTED AND i THINK THAT MAY SKEW FANS AND PLAYERS OPINION OF HIS VALUE TO THE CLUB.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
There is no proof that Geathers is on his way out. It appears that Zimmer sure likes him more than many on these boards do. Dunlap may be listed as the starter but it is not hard to notice who is generally on the field on the first snap when our defense first takes the field.

MJ is going to be re-signed and I believe he is probably first priority. I as well hope this team brings back Gilberry on a multi year deal....6.5 snaps as a backup DE/DT is nothing to sniff at. I think Geathers would like to finish his career here and I think he understands his role. I think he is smart enough to understand the financial implications of his role as well. Say what you like but Geathers is our best DE against the run.

If we return MJ, Dunlap, and Gilberry then I do not see DE being addressed very early. There is also the consideration that even if Geathers is not here that Still is the type of player that could be productive in Geathers role in running situations on early downs.

Personally I think this dline is in very good shape.

Geathers is gone!! Somebody is going to overpay him just like they did Rucker and Fanene. If they decide to replace him with a similar player in the draft i think Datone Jones could be a possibility.

Last edited by pulses; 01-05-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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  #40  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:21 PM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

We need help at every position
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  #41  
Old 01-06-2013, 10:37 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

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Originally Posted by Bengals Fan For Life! View Post
Depth Depth Depth yes BUT NOT at corner at the EXPENSE of DL. Yes Pass happy league but the quickest way to QB is DL. Straight line...A to B. Premium positions on Defense are DE and CB but in that order. To help with pass defense DE's first and then CB's and I am of the opinion that we are NOT set on DE's.
There is no doubt in my mind that we need to go with D line as well and I think Gilberry was quite a find. However, we need another DE (we drafted DT tackles last year) or two.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

While I agree that you can never have too many good corners, I think we have other pressing needs that need to take priority.

IMO we have 3 starters that need replaced on the defense, and none of them are corners: Maualuga, Lawson, and Clements/Crocker.
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  #43  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: why draft a Corner at all this year when.....

We have a nice CB group now. Mix of age and youth. Ghee is gone but we have prayer (as mentioned above)

But top 4 corners of hall/Kirkpatrick/jones/Newman isn't bad. Prob need to address another 1st rd corner in a cpl years but this year isn't one of them. Maybe a mid round, unless of course a corner is bpa
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