Income Tax

[OneManBand]

If you could vote on stopping income tax would you vote to stop it tomorrow or a long term plan to halt the tax?

I think there would be a lot of government jobs lost if it was instituted tomorrow.
However, I wonder how much more business would be generated from people having extra money that it might possibly be a quick and strong recovery?

[HarleyDog]

End it. It was supposed to be a temporary tax. In addition, it was supposed to be voluntary as well (and still is until you decide not to pay it).

[The Noob Avenger]

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...owFairTaxWorks

[SunsetBengal]

Originally Posted by The Noob Avenger

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...owFairTaxWorks

I would be all for that plan.

[RhythmicGeek]

So if we stop the income tax, what do you propose to replace it? The Fair Tax plan that is a regressive tax, causing middle income people to pay a higher percentage of their wages in taxes than upper income earners? Do we even bother replacing it and just flounder in debt because we are unable to pay off our current debt, let alone pay for government programs?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

We should raise taxes to 100% and force everyone to consume less than they produce.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by The Noob Avenger

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...owFairTaxWorks

A few things to think about that they don't publicize here.

The federal sales tax would actually be 30% of the purchase price not 23%. And this would be on top of state and local sales tax.

The most expensive items that wealthy people purchase, homes, would not be taxed. MIddle income people also would get their homes tax free, but it would be a lot bigger benefit to the wealthy because they spend so much more.

Under the current income tax system every income claimed is also a deduction for another tax payer. That is a built in compliance regulation that is gone with the sales tax. No one has any fear of misreporting their sales amount because it will not show up as a deduction on another tax return.

A 30% tax on new cars with a 0% tax on used cars would cripple the auto industry.

There is no way possible to create the same tax revenue without the "fair" (ha!) tax being highly regressive. It is nothing but a scam to shift the tax burder more to the middle class. The wealthy save and invest a much higher percentage of their income than do the lower and middle class, so they end up with a lower tax burden.

Also, all corporate taxes, estate taxes, and captal gains taxes will be abolished. All of these will benefit the wealthy much more than the middle and lower classes.

[Lolli]

Originally Posted by The Noob Avenger

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...owFairTaxWorks

^^^^

[RhythmicGeek]

I just have to laugh at the people who fall for the Fair Tax plan and don't realize just how much of a misnomer it is.

[Helldog]

If something seems too good to be true, it usually is bs.

[Benton]

Originally Posted by The Noob Avenger

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...owFairTaxWorks

Originally Posted by fredtoast

A few things to think about that they don't publicize here.

The federal sales tax would actually be 30% of the purchase price not 23%. And this would be on top of state and local sales tax.

The most expensive items that wealthy people purchase, homes, would not be taxed. MIddle income people also would get their homes tax free, but it would be a lot bigger benefit to the wealthy because they spend so much more.

Under the current income tax system every income claimed is also a deduction for another tax payer. That is a built in compliance regulation that is gone with the sales tax. No one has any fear of misreporting their sales amount because it will not show up as a deduction on another tax return.

A 30% tax on new cars with a 0% tax on used cars would cripple the auto industry.

There is no way possible to create the same tax revenue without the "fair" (ha!) tax being highly regressive. It is nothing but a scam to shift the tax burder more to the middle class. The wealthy save and invest a much higher percentage of their income than do the lower and middle class, so they end up with a lower tax burden.

Also, all corporate taxes, estate taxes, and captal gains taxes will be abolished. All of these will benefit the wealthy much more than the middle and lower classes.

Pretty much what Fred said.

In time, that 30% (more once you add on state and local) would likely continue to go up. If the same abuses follow that made income tax lopsided in favor of those with money, more luxury items (like vacation homes, planes, multiple vehicles, etc.)would continue to be excluded.

I like the concept, but all the models suggested are far from fair. That's why they picked that name. In politics you always call something the opposite of what it really is. Like the Patriot Act.

[OneManBand]

Originally Posted by RhythmicGeek

So if we stop the income tax, what do you propose to replace it? The Fair Tax plan that is a regressive tax, causing middle income people to pay a higher percentage of their wages in taxes than upper income earners? Do we even bother replacing it and just flounder in debt because we are unable to pay off our current debt, let alone pay for government programs?

I am not sure you have to replace it if people are spending more on goods and services.
Even if that doesn't help out with our debt immediately I would hope it would cause the government to eliminate more public services,
force a regression in the idea of socialism,
and bring back more of a individual proactive take on helping your fellow American.

[RhythmicGeek]

Originally Posted by OneManBand

I am not sure you have to replace it if people are spending more on goods and services.
Even if that doesn't help out with our debt immediately I would hope it would cause the government to eliminate more public services,
force a regression in the idea of socialism,
and bring back more of a individual proactive take on helping your fellow American.

If you truly think that, then you have no understanding of the federal budget and where tax money goes.

[OneManBand]

Originally Posted by RhythmicGeek

If you truly think that, then you have no understanding of the federal budget and where tax money goes.

I don't, please inform me...

[RhythmicGeek]

Originally Posted by OneManBand

I don't, please inform me...

Let me just leave it at this, so I don't get too much into the realm of P&R for this forum:

If you were to get rid of the individual income tax at the federal level and not replace it with some other system, we would have roughly $400 Billion to cover roughly $2.8 Trillion in expenditures. Now, I know we all want to see budget cuts, but considering the interest on our debt alone runs between $200-250 Billion that leaves $150-200 Billion for the entire budget (less SS and Medicare, they have their own taxes to fund them, though they don't cover all the costs and they often take from the general fund as well). The defense budget sits at around $700 Billion on it's own.

We can talk about cutting the over sized federal government all we want, there is no way that we would be able to cut down to that.

[Bengalzona]

I would only vote to eliminate income tax if there was something proven to replace it with. I haven't seen anything that would convince me there is a better alternative out there yet.

[J24]

Flat tax everyone pays 9% no detuctions for everyone.

[RhythmicGeek]

Originally Posted by J24

Flat tax everyone pays 9% no detuctions for everyone.

So people who are trying to make ends meet and are impoverished will still have to fork over nearly 1/10th of their earnings?

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by OneManBand

If you could vote on stopping income tax would you vote to stop it tomorrow or a long term plan to halt the tax?

I think there would be a lot of government jobs lost if it was instituted tomorrow.
However, I wonder how much more business would be generated from people having extra money that it might possibly be a quick and strong recovery?

They would just replace it with another tax....... We are so screwed for at least the next 8 years...

4 more years of obama... 4 years of a Republican cleaning up the mess (then things start getting betteR)

[THEBURG]

Originally Posted by BengalsFan024

They would just replace it with another tax....... We are so screwed for at least the next 8 years...

4 more years of obama... 4 years of a Republican cleaning up the mess (then things start getting betteR)

That's what we're doing now, trying to clean up a republican mess.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by RhythmicGeek

So people who are trying to make ends meet and are impoverished will still have to fork over nearly 1/10th of their earnings?

The last time I heard this idea floating around, it was 15% for everyone making over $40K. But then you would have people getting paid under the table (in cash) over the $40K threshold. Monitoring this would cut the IRS in about half but you still have to remove every single loophole known to man out of the code. And when lawyers are creating the system, that ain't happening, I don't care which side of Congress you sit on.

[RhythmicGeek]

Originally Posted by BengalsFan024

They would just replace it with another tax....... We are so screwed for at least the next 8 years...

4 more years of obama... 4 years of a Republican cleaning up the mess (then things start getting betteR)

I love hearing people express the idea that either one of the two major parties will fix anything. Always good for a laugh.

[RhythmicGeek]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

The last time I heard this idea floating around, it was 15% for everyone making over $40K. But then you would have people getting paid under the table (in cash) over the $40K threshold. Monitoring this would cut the IRS in about half but you still have to remove every single loophole known to man out of the code. And when lawyers are creating the system, that ain't happening, I don't care which side of Congress you sit on.

I'm actually for a flat tax. I think that every year, a group of economists should get together and set an amount that would be needed to live. It would have adjustments based upon single, married, kids and what not. That amount is how much of your income is not taxed, the remainder is all taxed flat at some arbitrary percentage that the government would decide. Let's say *throws a dart at a board of numbers* 12.5%. This would allow for people to have money untaxed that they need to live.

I also think that there should be a VAT type of national sales tax in order to supplement. Food, drugs, and some other things would be exempt transactions, but for most general goods there would be a VAT on them. This also gets into my opinion of streamlining state sales taxes. Let's face it, when it comes to commerce the United States has shrunk tremendously. With the internet age a streamlined system for state sales/use tax would makes things easier not only for the consumer, but also for businesses.

This system wouldn't do much to decrease the necessity for the IRS (it would downsize them some, just not as much as most people would like) but it would make taxation in this country much simpler to the benefit of every person and business.

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by RhythmicGeek

I love hearing people express the idea that either one of the two major parties will fix anything. Always good for a laugh.

I know, right? I mean, who created these messes? Sure wasn't a third party or independent!!!! Do people really think that a Republican or Democrat is going to mess with a system that they have worked so hard to set up in order to fund their and their corporate donors lavish lifestyles? Surely they jest when they say either side of the duopoly will derail the gravy train on biscuit wheels that they have implemented for themselves! I've got a bridge I'd like to sell.......

[Danno]

Originally Posted by OneManBand

If you could vote on stopping income tax would you vote to stop it tomorrow or a long term plan to halt the tax?

I think there would be a lot of government jobs lost if it was instituted tomorrow.
However, I wonder how much more business would be generated from people having extra money that it might possibly be a quick and strong recovery?

If I were to plan an end to the income tax, I would shrink the federal government significantly.

Since, in 2012 Income tax represent roughly $1.4 Trillion (57%) of the revenues to the Federal government.... (http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/fed_revenue_2012USrn) I say it's only fair we shrink the spending of the US government in kind.

So, cut $1.4 trillion in government spending (if not more since we are already running >$1 Trillion deficit).

Pluses - More money for individuals. Less government influence on our lives.

Minues - Massive hit to the economy. Lot's of people out of work. Less from government services that people expect.



So yeah, I wouldn't do that. Unless there is a replacement, it would be stupid to stop the income tax given the current size of our government.