Berserker/O&B 2013 and 2014 mock drafts

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

That defense was far from elite.
And Okafor is a better prospect than MJ or Dunlap.
So yeah, he has that going for him.

Okafor is a far better prospect? Based on what? Both MJ and Dunlap were talked about as top 5 picks before the start of their last year in college. I have never seen Okafor mentioned in that light.

Both guys dropped for various reasons, but they still were much better prospects than Okafor, who I still haven't ever seen mentioned as a high first rounder.

As far as the Texans' defense goes, if that isn't an elite defense then we have major problems since our offense got pushed around by an average defense. That makes offensive needs much bigger than an added luxery of a situational pass rusher.

[Orange and Black Attack]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

I don't think you pull the plug on a guy that is 25 years or younger and has had a 10 sack season (MJ) and a 9.5 sack season (Dunlap). Especially MJ. How many times has he been asked to move to SAM, lose weight, move to DE, gain weight? Finally, he has a full offseason of having a single directive to play DE and he produces. Why would you draft a replacement for that?

With the way we do things on defense with the rotation, there is no way that I would draft a DE in the first round - especially the 5th or 6th best pass rusher. I would definitely add a DE later in the draft, but we have much bigger needs than DE at this point.

There is no game breaking MIKE Lb this draft, but there is potential there that could be had in rounds 2 - 3. We need a pass rusher, either reaching on a 1st round LB to please the masses or take a good pass rusher and get a LB at the top of the 2nd.

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by Orange and Black Attack

There is no game breaking MIKE Lb this draft, but there is potential there that could be had in rounds 2 - 3. We need a pass rusher, either reaching on a 1st round LB to please the masses or take a good pass rusher and get a LB at the top of the 2nd.

I never said we needed to take a LB in the first round.

Earlier I pointed out that there were 4 guys on the board in your draft that would be better fits than Okafor (who is pretty much a reach at #21)

Patterson
Vacarro
Minter
Williams

Barrett Jones makes more sense than a pass rusher.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

I never said we needed to take a LB in the first round.

Earlier I pointed out that there were 4 guys on the board in your draft that would be better fits than Okafor (who is pretty much a reach at #21)

Patterson
Vacarro
Minter
Williams

Barrett Jones makes more sense than a pass rusher.

To me, the Bengals 1st round pick is a luxury pick. They could practically go any direction, and I could see the value of adding the player.

WTS, my initial objections to the mock is that it delays resolving the RB situation until the 3rd round and the safety situation until the 4th round.

Okafor would be a solid addition. WTS, if the Bengals could fix a HUGE HOLE (e.g. the LB corp), I think they would be better served to fix the LB corp than to add a strong rotational DE.

[Burma]

Originally Posted by Orange and Black Attack

There is no game breaking MIKE Lb this draft, but there is potential there that could be had in rounds 2 - 3. We need a pass rusher, either reaching on a 1st round LB to please the masses or take a good pass rusher and get a LB at the top of the 2nd.

Its the same thing with the DE this year. The only truly dominant and consistent rusher is Werner and he will be gone long before we pick. Oakafor really does not appeal to me at all. He is not consistent at all, truly boom or bust. Same with Montgomery, whom I had been very high on and still like more than Oakafor. I really want to improve our rush but using a 1st rounder on an inconsistent rotational player is not sitting well with me. 2a, sure take whomever falls between Montgomery and Oakafor.

[Hammerstripes]

Didn't we finish 2nd in the league in sacks this year? Why the fascination with improving the pass rush?

[Burma]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

Didn't we finish 2nd in the league in sacks this year? Why the fascination with improving the pass rush?

And we had zero in the game against Houston. Aside from Geno, the pressure is inconsistent and very sporadic.

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by Burma

And we had zero in the game against Houston. Aside from Geno, the pressure is inconsistent and very sporadic.

Yeah, because we were facing a line with 3 Pro-Bowlers. The bigger problem was not getting to Schaub, the problem was covering the TE and RB on pass plays.

You can't take 1 game and make it seem like it was a season long problem. The issue with covering TEs and RBs has been going on for years now. It's time we do something about that. A guy like Okafor is not going to change the outcome of the Texans game. The following guys would have had a major impact:

Ogletree
Patterson
Williams
Barrett Jones
Vacarro

[Burma]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

Yeah, because we were facing a line with 3 Pro-Bowlers. The bigger problem was not getting to Schaub, the problem was covering the TE and RB on pass plays.

The 2nd rated sacking defense in the nfl has to be able to generate some pressure, even against that line. And as Zimmer said in the pregame show (paraphrased from montage before the game) “give me pressure over anything else”

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

You can't take 1 game and make it seem like it was a season long problem.

But its not 1 game, its every year. Outside of Geno we simply do not apply consistent pressure. Our pass rush is boom or bust. We have very little in between, ie: hurries, pressures, what ever you want to call them. Take this excerpt from PFF back in June reviewing the last 3 seasons of pass rushing efficiency

“Michael Johnson has rushed 1045 times in the past three seasons, yet has created pressure only 74 times. That amounts to an abysmal 5.6%. Robert Geathers was even worse. Geathers, with 1147 rushes, has created quarterback pressure just 75 times--a 5.1%.”

I am sure the numbers have fluctuated a bit this year, but as I don’t pay for PFF I cant quote you the updated numbers. Somebody go get truck to show us the Pass rushing efficiency. I can tell you though that none of our DE were even in the top 20, which is all they show for free.

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

The issue with covering TEs and RBs has been going on for years now. It's time we do something about that. A guy like Okafor is not going to change the outcome of the Texans game…

Oh, I agree. We historically have been atrocious at covering TEs and RBs luckily this draft has 3 LB that could easily step in and help fix that. As to Okafor; I also doubt he would have done much in that Houston game but that’s mainly because I am not a huge fan of any of these DEs in the first, outside of Werner. But at some point we do need to provide more consistent pressure if we are going to be truly successful.

[TGISunday]

If Ogletree is gone, Okafor would be a great pick. Follow that up with Greene and #1 need is covered.

Rest isn't bad at all. I'd be ecstatic if we wait until the late fourth to address safety and somehow Rambo is still there. Whats all the fuss about in this thread?

[Orange and Black Attack]

Originally Posted by TGISunday

If Ogletree is gone, Okafor would be a great pick. Follow that up with Greene and #1 need is covered.

Rest isn't bad at all. I'd be ecstatic if we wait until the late fourth to address safety and somehow Rambo is still there. Whats all the fuss about in this thread?

Because we didn't take who they wanted.

[TGISunday]

Originally Posted by Orange and Black Attack

Because we didn't take who they wanted.

[Jasonew6]

Did an attempt to anticipate what the Bengals would actually do factor into either mock at all?

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Orange and Black Attack

There is no game breaking MIKE Lb this draft, but there is potential there that could be had in rounds 2 - 3. We need a pass rusher, either reaching on a 1st round LB to please the masses or take a good pass rusher and get a LB at the top of the 2nd.

Your statement of the necessity of a pass rusher is the focus of this debate.

What do the Bengals need more? A pass rusher or an LB that can cover a TE?

It seems to me that the Bengals need a LB that can cover a TE far more than a pass rusher.

Who was the leading receiver for the Texans? Their TE Owen Daniels - 9 catches for 91 yards.

This has been the Bengals achilles heel forever.

Imagine how many more sacks the Bengals would have if the TE wasn't immediately open!?! Or if a RB isn't automatically open if lined up against our LB!?!

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Jasonew6

Did an attempt to anticipate what the Bengals would actually do factor into either mock at all?

Please feel free to share the Bengals approach.

PS Zeitler (OG) in 2012 & Gresham (TE) in 2009

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Burma

The 2nd rated sacking defense in the nfl has to be able to generate some pressure, even against that line. And as Zimmer said in the pregame show (paraphrased from montage before the game) “give me pressure over anything else”



But its not 1 game, its every year. Outside of Geno we simply do not apply consistent pressure. Our pass rush is boom or bust. We have very little in between, ie: hurries, pressures, what ever you want to call them. Take this excerpt from PFF back in June reviewing the last 3 seasons of pass rushing efficiency



I am sure the numbers have fluctuated a bit this year, but as I don’t pay for PFF I cant quote you the updated numbers. Somebody go get truck to show us the Pass rushing efficiency. I can tell you though that none of our DE were even in the top 20, which is all they show for free.



Oh, I agree. We historically have been atrocious at covering TEs and RBs luckily this draft has 3 LB that could easily step in and help fix that. As to Okafor; I also doubt he would have done much in that Houston game but that’s mainly because I am not a huge fan of any of these DEs in the first, outside of Werner. But at some point we do need to provide more consistent pressure if we are going to be truly successful.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/...innati-bengals
In 2012, the Bengals had 51 sacks. 8 (15.7%) were by non-dlinemen & 43 (84.3%) were by the dline. Of the 8 non-dlinemen sacks, 2 were by DBs and 6 were by LBs.

In 2011, the Bengals had 45 sacks. 10.5 (23%) were by non-dlinemen & 34.5 (77%) were by the dline. Of the 10.5 sacks, 7.5 of them were by DBs and 3 were by the LBs.

It seems to me that Mike Zimmer blitzed less in 2012, and he relied more on the dline to create its own pressure. In addition, it seems that Zimmer almost exclusively focused on the front 7 to blitz. Or at least, the front 7 were the effective blitzers.

In 2012, the dline produce more sacks. In 2012, Zimmer seemingly stopped blitzing DBs as much.

It seems to me that the Bengals may be more bang for their buck with upgrading their LBs. First, the Bengals would finally be able to cover a TE and a RB out of the backfield. In addition, there is a strong possibility that they may be able to net another LB that could bring more in terms of pass rush.

[Orange and Black Attack]

Originally Posted by mulligan

Your statement of the necessity of a pass rusher is the focus of this debate.

What do the Bengals need more? A pass rusher or an LB that can cover a TE?

It seems to me that the Bengals need a LB that can cover a TE far more than a pass rusher.

Who was the leading receiver for the Texans? Their TE Owen Daniels - 9 catches for 91 yards.

This has been the Bengals achilles heel forever.

Imagine how many more sacks the Bengals would have if the TE wasn't immediately open!?! Or if a RB isn't automatically open if lined up against our LB!?!

The reason he Owen had that many catches/yards is because Schaub had all day to sit back there and wait for him to come open because he was covered by a LB that is slow.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Orange and Black Attack

The reason he Owen had that many catches/yards is because Schaub had all day to sit back there and wait for him to come open because he was covered by a LB that is slow.

I did not realize that TE routes took so long to develop. In fact, I am pretty certain that they don't.

Schaub didn't have "all day."

The Texans were able to get into 3rd and managable situations.

With 3rd and short, the playbook is completely open; short passes, runs, & play action.
Pass rushers have to be careful and don't have the ability to let loose and go at the QB.

[Hammerstripes]

You give me a legit S that can cover (Vacarro) and a MLB that can cover (Ogletree) and you would have had the Texans in serious trouble with their passing game.

I'm not shocked that we didn't get a ton of sacks against Houston, they have 3 Pro-Bowlers on their line.

Regardless, you can't tell me that DE is a need when we had as many sacks as we did. And don't tell me that the pass rush was inconsistent - that makes little sense when we had as many sacks as we did.