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  #251  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:17 PM
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I give you Walt Jocketty....and he wasn't brought in until new ownership stepped in. Castellini wants to make money AND win.....Mikey just wants to make money, and if he wins along the way....that's fine too. Make no mistake about that.
For all the talk about the Reds and winning, etc. the Bengals have a better success rate than the Reds since Castellini took over. Fact.

And Walt is only one piece of the puzzle. Unless you are one of those bash Dusty Baker left and right clowns.
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  #252  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:18 PM
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Because he's the last big name Mikey had come to FA and we let him walk?
Beacuse he locked up a lot of other players before they hit free agency.
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  #253  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:25 PM
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For all the talk about the Reds and winning, etc. the Bengals have a better success rate than the Reds since Castellini took over. Fact.

And Walt is only one piece of the puzzle. Unless you are one of those bash Dusty Baker left and right clowns.
No, I like Dusty....a lot. That said, Walt's record in St. Louis and Cincinnati speaks for itself. The Bengals have revenue sharing, salary caps, etc. to help in establishing league parity, the Reds don't. It's obvious when you go out and ink the one of the best GMs in the biz, hire a respected manager that has been to the big dance, ink your big stars long term, trade for talent, and sign GOOD FA's that you care about winning, wouldn't you agree? Especially when you actually ARE handicapped by a small market revenue?

Now, conversely, when you don't even have a GM, the smallest scouting department in the league, position coaches that have been here since Hudepohl was a big seller at Riverfront, most northern team without an indoor facility, a HC with a losing record, AND you are aided by a cap and profit sharing, wouldn't it suffice to say that winning doesn't seem to be as important as making/saving a buck from the outside looking in?

Now answer objectively and honestly please....and BTW, winnning % in 16 games is easier to muster than 162.
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  #254  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:26 PM
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Beacuse he locked up a lot of other players before they hit free agency.
Which ones? Should they still be here, or were they dumb signings? I remember Whitworth.....having trouble remembering anyone else that was worthy of inking long term...Peko?
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:34 PM
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No, I like Dusty....a lot. That said, Walt's record in St. Louis and Cincinnati speaks for itself. The Bengals have revenue sharing, salary caps, etc. to help in establishing league parity, the Reds don't. It's obvious when you go out and ink the one of the best GMs in the biz, hire a respected manager that has been to the big dance, ink your big stars long term, trade for talent, and sign GOOD FA's that you care about winning, wouldn't you agree? Especially when you actually ARE handicapped by a small market revenue?

Now, conversely, when you don't even have a GM, the smallest scouting department in the league, position coaches that have been here since Hudepohl was a big seller at Riverfront, most northern team without an indoor facility, a HC with a losing record, AND you are aided by a cap and profit sharing, wouldn't it suffice to say that winning doesn't seem to be as important as making/saving a buck from the outside looking in?

Now answer objectively and honestly please....and BTW, winnning % in 16 games is easier to muster than 162.
It only looks that way if you are not objective and entrenched in you old school way of thinking. Either way, who cares???? You win or you lose and since 2006 when Castellini took control, the Bengals have done a better job of it.

Ink your big stars long term? Trade for talent? Sign good free agents? The Bengals have done all these things which has resulted in their successes over the last four seasons. In fact, you could argue that the Bengals have done a better job of building an entire roster than the Reds.....need I remind you of the awesome signings of Willie Harris, Wilson Valdez, etc.

The revenue model for the sports is of course different but claiming the Reds are handicapped financially, especially after the Votto and Phillips deals, is curious at best but I see the point you are trying to make. I just think you're comparing apples to oranges if you compare financial models between MLB and NFL even though the MLB does now have revenue sharing to help the so-called poor teams.
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  #256  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:41 PM
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Which ones? Should they still be here, or were they dumb signings? I remember Whitworth.....having trouble remembering anyone else that was worthy of inking long term...Peko?
Peko, Whit, Leon as examples. If you want to go back further, Chad (twice), Willie, Carson, Rudi, TJ.

Soon to come Geno, Dunlap

The Bengals have always taken care of their own when they feel its warranted. They offered JJoe a deal but were unwilling to go above it. The Texans signed him to a big deal (that will have to be renegotiated by the way if you truly understand the terms of it...or he'll be a cap cut) that the Bengals weren't willing to match. That's business.
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  #257  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:43 PM
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Peko, Whit, Leon as examples. If you want to go back further, Chad (twice), Willie, Carson, Rudi, TJ.

Soon to come Geno, Dunlap

The Bengals have always taken care of their own when they feel its warranted. They offered JJoe a deal but were unwilling to go above it. The Texans signed him to a big deal (that will have to be renegotiated by the way if you truly understand the terms of it...or he'll be a cap cut) that the Bengals weren't willing to match. That's business.
Recently Kyle Cook got his extenstion. Some that dont are because they can be replaced.
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  #258  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:45 PM
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It only looks that way if you are not objective and entrenched in you old school way of thinking. Either way, who cares???? You win or you lose and since 2006 when Castellini took control, the Bengals have done a better job of it.

Ink your big stars long term? Trade for talent? Sign good free agents? The Bengals have done all these things which has resulted in their successes over the last four seasons. In fact, you could argue that the Bengals have done a better job of building an entire roster than the Reds.....need I remind you of the awesome signings of Willie Harris, Wilson Valdez, etc.

The revenue model for the sports is of course different but claiming the Reds are handicapped financially, especially after the Votto and Phillips deals, is curious at best but I see the point you are trying to make. I just think you're comparing apples to oranges if you compare financial models between MLB and NFL even though the MLB does now have revenue sharing to help the so-called poor teams.
It is apples to oranges. Building a winner in MLB takes longer than building one in the NFL. NFL draft picks play immediately and there are more options in FA since everyone is one a level playing field. The Reds have been built mostly through the draft and it takes 3-4 years before those guys can even step on the GABP field. The trades they did make were possible because of the farm system they had.
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  #259  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:47 PM
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It only looks that way if you are not objective and entrenched in you old school way of thinking. Either way, who cares???? You win or you lose and since 2006 when Castellini took control, the Bengals have done a better job of it.

Ink your big stars long term? Trade for talent? Sign good free agents? The Bengals have done all these things which has resulted in their successes over the last four seasons. In fact, you could argue that the Bengals have done a better job of building an entire roster than the Reds.....need I remind you of the awesome signings of Willie Harris, Wilson Valdez, etc.

The revenue model for the sports is of course different but claiming the Reds are handicapped financially, especially after the Votto and Phillips deals, is curious at best but I see the point you are trying to make. I just think you're comparing apples to oranges if you compare financial models between MLB and NFL even though the MLB does now have revenue sharing to help the so-called poor teams.
How is that? How is doing all of that cheapskating not putting money over winning? Like I said, it's harder to maintain success over a 162 game season than it is 16, but if that won't work, should we compare the front offices of say.....Green Bay, New England, Pittsburgh, etc., etc. to Cincinnati's and see how they stack up?

Look, the drafts have certainly helped us, question is, will we fork over the cash to keep that talent? We draft better, no question, but I don't think that's Brown. I find it amusing that folks think he just woke up one day and a light went off in his head. Someone is pulling some strings, but they are still handicapped by the miser.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:47 PM
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It is apples to oranges. Building a winner in MLB takes longer than building one in the NFL. NFL draft picks play immediately and there are more options in FA since everyone is one a level playing field. The Reds have been built mostly through the draft and it takes 3-4 years before those guys can even step on the GABP field. The trades they did make were possible because of the farm system they had.
Building in the MLB is a little easier because every team has a big pool of talent they keep active in the AAA leagues. and can bring up (or move down) when ever they need new talent. Allowing them to keep guys a long time before using.

Football you can only hang onto 53 + PS and if you have a year of big turnover it takes awhile to find decent replacements. Baseball also has a longer draft.
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  #261  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:49 PM
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Peko, Whit, Leon as examples. If you want to go back further, Chad (twice), Willie, Carson, Rudi, TJ.

Soon to come Geno, Dunlap

The Bengals have always taken care of their own when they feel its warranted. They offered JJoe a deal but were unwilling to go above it. The Texans signed him to a big deal (that will have to be renegotiated by the way if you truly understand the terms of it...or he'll be a cap cut) that the Bengals weren't willing to match. That's business.
I don't want to "go back", why would I we were talking about JJoe, right? Who did we "ahve to sign" that caused us to cheap up on his intial offer? Who did we have to save money for at the end of 2011. Sure wasn't Chad, Willie, Rudi, or TJ!
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  #262  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:51 PM
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Building in the MLB is a little easier because every team has a big pool of talent they keep active in the AAA leagues. and can bring up (or move down) when ever they need new talent. Allowing them to keep guys a long time before using.

Football you can only hang onto 53 + PS and if you have a year of big turnover it takes awhile to find decent replacements. Baseball also has a longer draft.
That talent is not always field ready either....baseball is more mental, you can't bring guys up and have them, go in a slump and mess up their mojo. In the NFL, there id FA, the waiver wire, trades, etc.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:52 PM
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I don't want to "go back", why would I we were talking about JJoe, right? Who did we "ahve to sign" that caused us to cheap up on his intial offer? Who did we have to save money for at the end of 2011. Sure wasn't Chad, Willie, Rudi, or TJ!
The difference in contracts offered was about the same as the one for Housh when he left.

Players get to pick where they want to go...

Lets see Texans with a hand full of probowlers. or the Bengals coming off a 4-12 season and a quiting QB... He probly would have left even if their offer was less than ours. Some players are just about the money some want to go somewhere they feel gives them the best chance to win now.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:53 PM
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I don't want to "go back", why would I we were talking about JJoe, right? Who did we "ahve to sign" that caused us to cheap up on his intial offer? Who did we have to save money for at the end of 2011. Sure wasn't Chad, Willie, Rudi, or TJ!
Yes but if we would have signed J-JO, we never would have landed Jason Allen. Just stew on that for a minute brother.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:54 PM
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That talent is not always field ready either....baseball is more mental, you can't bring guys up and have them, go in a slump and mess up their mojo. In the NFL, there id FA, the waiver wire, trades, etc.
Yeah but the difference is Those guys are playing baseball until they are needed working and practice their Trade...

Guys who dont make a Pro team ahve to look for work.... there isnt a minor league for football... Which whould be awesome if there was.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:55 PM
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How is that? How is doing all of that cheapskating not putting money over winning? Like I said, it's harder to maintain success over a 162 game season than it is 16, but if that won't work, should we compare the front offices of say.....Green Bay, New England, Pittsburgh, etc., etc. to Cincinnati's and see how they stack up?

Look, the drafts have certainly helped us, question is, will we fork over the cash to keep that talent? We draft better, no question, but I don't think that's Brown. I find it amusing that folks think he just woke up one day and a light went off in his head. Someone is pulling some strings, but they are still handicapped by the miser.
You claim the Bengals are cheapskating but praise the Reds when, in reality, they do the exact same thing....try to build a complete roster with the resources available to them.

Your point about the schedule length is completely invalid since the Reds competitors play the same 162 and have the same struggles that could plague the Reds. Just like the Bengals competition plays the same 16 they do.

I will agree that the Bengals need to improve to be named in the same sentence as GB, NE, etc. But it is interesting that you pick out organizations that go by the same spending philosophy that the Bengals do. Draft well, pay your home grown talent and not go crazy on any individual contract.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:57 PM
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You claim the Bengals are cheapskating but praise the Reds when, in reality, they do the exact same thing....try to build a complete roster with the resources available to them.

Your point about the schedule length is completely invalid since the Reds competitors play the same 162 and have the same struggles that could plague the Reds. Just like the Bengals competition plays the same 16 they do.

I will agree that the Bengals need to improve to be named in the same sentence as GB, NE, etc. But it is interesting that you pick out organizations that go by the same spending philosophy that the Bengals do. Draft well, pay your home grown talent and not go crazy on any individual contract.
Difference in the Reds is Marge Shot killed our minor league program... New owner has brought it back to where it needs to be to be a competetive team. Even though we (Reds) will never have close to the top payroll in the league or confrence.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:59 PM
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I don't want to "go back", why would I we were talking about JJoe, right? Who did we "ahve to sign" that caused us to cheap up on his intial offer? Who did we have to save money for at the end of 2011. Sure wasn't Chad, Willie, Rudi, or TJ!
Have you seen JJoe's contract? It has already been renegotiated once to make room for a Schaub extension. Now his cap number for the next two years is 11.5 million. For one defensive back. Either him or other important Texans will have to be cut to be under the cap. It was a bad contract before they re-did it in September. Now, it is even worse. The Bengals, correctly IMO, choose not to structure deals that way so they can pay more than one which is what they are about to do because they were smart with how they run their cap.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:01 PM
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Difference in the Reds is Marge Shot killed our minor league program... New owner has brought it back to where it needs to be to be a competetive team. Even though we (Reds) will never have close to the top payroll in the league or confrence.
Reds farm system has been gutted that last two seasons due to trades, etc. Louisville, IIRC, has the worst record in the IL last season. The Reds are banking on their current group to get them over the top as their best prospects are still a couple years away.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:09 PM
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Have you seen JJoe's contract? It has already been renegotiated once to make room for a Schaub extension. Now his cap number for the next two years is 11.5 million. For one defensive back. Either him or other important Texans will have to be cut to be under the cap. It was a bad contract before they re-did it in September. Now, it is even worse. The Bengals, correctly IMO, choose not to structure deals that way so they can pay more than one which is what they are about to do because they were smart with how they run their cap.
The Bengals had $30 million in cap space when Joseph left and could have front loaded his deal.

People act like the Bengals just let him walk. They offerred him a pretty large contract and had he signed it, he was here.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:09 PM
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Have you seen JJoe's contract? It has already been renegotiated once to make room for a Schaub extension. Now his cap number for the next two years is 11.5 million. For one defensive back. Either him or other important Texans will have to be cut to be under the cap. It was a bad contract before they re-did it in September. Now, it is even worse. The Bengals, correctly IMO, choose not to structure deals that way so they can pay more than one which is what they are about to do because they were smart with how they run their cap.

Exactly... Texans are going to be over the Cap... which means cutting good players and resturcturing deals (that will put them in the same spot next year)

The bengals may be viewed as cheap But looking at the bigger picture they usually leave themselfs in a good position for what they need to do. (not spending ~ 20+ mil a year for chad and Palmer is why the numbers have been lower lately)
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:09 PM
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Yes but if we would have signed J-JO, we never would have landed Jason Allen. Just stew on that for a minute brother.
Jason Allen didn't get beat deep all year. Not once!
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:11 PM
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The Bengals had $30 million in cap space when Joseph left and could have front loaded his deal.

People act like the Bengals just let him walk. They offerred him a pretty large contract and had he signed it, he was here.
He chose the Texans and even said the bengals gave him a very competive deal but he chose the texans based on other factors.

30$ mil in cap space included 15$ mil for Palmer $couple mil incase Andre hit some of his esculators. $ rookie pool and $ all the other free agents we had to sign that year...
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:15 PM
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The Bengals had $30 million in cap space when Joseph left and could have front loaded his deal.

People act like the Bengals just let him walk. They offerred him a pretty large contract and had he signed it, he was here.
They offered him a good contract that fits in with their philosophy of not risking their opportunity to sign other important players.

People here act as if the Bengals low balled him with a cheap offer which is completely absurd. But, hell, we might have a chance to get him back after he is a salary cap cut in Houston.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:49 PM
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They offered him a good contract that fits in with their philosophy of not risking their opportunity to sign other important players.

People here act as if the Bengals low balled him with a cheap offer which is completely absurd. But, hell, we might have a chance to get him back after he is a salary cap cut in Houston.
From what I understand, Houston offered him more GUARANTEED money. The contracts were close, incentive-wise, but guaranteed money is a huge selling point for players. If you really think about it, we had just signed Hall to a big deal, Joseph was always hurt, and it just didn't make sense to guarantee him a bunch of money.

He's missed 2 games this season, while Hall has missed none.

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