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  #1  
Old 01-11-2013, 08:55 PM
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bengals Dalton being over coached?

I think the reasons for Daltons struggles is because he's being over coached...Dalton has to become more relaxed in the pocket. I think his game was better in 2011 than 2012. It seemed like Dalton changed, and became more tense & upright during this season.

I think Marvin or Jay are telling Dalton to do things a certain way causing him to start thinking to much instead of doing what's more comfortable for himself...He needs to start doing things his way & the coaches need to stop messing with his drop back stance and throwing from..his dropback in college looked way better than what it does now because he seemed more relaxed..Andy is thinking to much about looking "professional" instead of just playing the game & just doing it. I think over coaching is messing with his natural game...Andy needs to drop back the way he wants to drop back and he needs to throw the way he wants to. He's done it all his life a certain way and you shouldn't really mess with tha a whole lot. Gruden may be being hard on Dalton pounding things into his brain on how to do things a certain way...This is the only explanation for me on why Dalton is struggling. He looks different from his rookie season, in a bad way.

Gruden should also look into TCU's offensive playbook during the time Dalton was there and watch how they run 5 WR sets with good blocking schemes, & use plays where Andy steps out of the pocket a little bit or roll out, and maybe advise his to scramble & run it if he has the opportunity.

Look at how his throwing motion and drop back form are more relaxed and he is comfortable. He makes a good deep ball throw look easy, But recently he looks very tense and uptight, and his deep ball looks like he's just winging it with no touch to it. My advice to Dalton would be..Do things the way you know how to do them. Drop back the way you want to, & throw the ball the way you want to. Practice playing the game like yourself in the offseason & do what's comfortable to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQkHpQom85w
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:56 PM
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bengals Re: Dalton being over coached?

Gruden is not our QB coach. With Zampese he is probably getting zero coaching.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

He got sacked much less 2 years ago. That tends to relax a QB.

Our line was below average this year.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

Not sure it's just from coaching but I believe he's way overthinking the game right now. He's not just taking what's there, as it comes.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:01 PM
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bengals Re: Dalton being over coached?

Best thing for Dalton is to get more talent around him. It's a qb driven league now, get him more weapons!
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

Dalton needs to warm up longer before games and stop thinking so much.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:47 PM
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bengals Re: Dalton being over coached?

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
He got sacked much less 2 years ago. That tends to relax a QB.

Our line was below average this year.
I don't think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the O-line this year. There was a couple games where they struggled, and Cook returning certainly didn't help.. but honestly, I think there's some validity in the OP's case. Dalton was GREAT about throwing the ball away before taking a sack... then Gruden and Lewis start talking about making "unscripted plays" and how he's throwing the ball too fast (which is the first time I have heard of that, nobody ever complained that Kurt Warner threw the ball too fast).....

...After they say that, suddenly he's holding onto the ball longer, and when the pocket finally collapsed, he tried to scramble right into a pass rusher or tried to outrun a guy faster than him and took a completely unnecessary sack rather than throw it away.

I trace Dalton's sack/holding the ball problems back to Marvin saying Dalton needed to "make unscripted plays" and Gruden saying Dalton "threw the ball too fast after the snap". For a quick anticipation thrower, that sounds like some of the worst coaching to strengths I have ever heard.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

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Originally Posted by Carl Pickens View Post
Best thing for Dalton is to get more talent around him. It's a qb driven league now, get him more weapons!
Again with More weapons. Maybe a couple seven foot wide receivers would help.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

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Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap View Post
I don't think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the O-line this year. There was a couple games where they struggled, and Cook returning certainly didn't help.. but honestly, I think there's some validity in the OP's case. Dalton was GREAT about throwing the ball away before taking a sack... then Gruden and Lewis start talking about making "unscripted plays" and how he's throwing the ball too fast (which is the first time I have heard of that, nobody ever complained that Kurt Warner threw the ball too fast).....

...After they say that, suddenly he's holding onto the ball longer, and when the pocket finally collapsed, he tried to scramble right into a pass rusher or tried to outrun a guy faster than him and took a completely unnecessary sack rather than throw it away.

I trace Dalton's sack/holding the ball problems back to Marvin saying Dalton needed to "make unscripted plays" and Gruden saying Dalton "threw the ball too fast after the snap". For a quick anticipation thrower, that sounds like some of the worst coaching to strengths I have ever heard.
I believe there's a lot of merit in your post.

This in no way is to take up for the coaches, but I do believe Andy has at times threw the ball to quickly. But he has just as often threw the ball to late. I guess I'm trying to say he's not yet doing a real good job of throwing receivers open.

As for the unscripted plays, I agree Marvin has been putting to much emphasis on this ! By there very nature you can't plan them.

I really think the game will slow down for him a lot more this coming season.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:05 PM
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Again with More weapons. Maybe a couple seven foot wide receivers would help.
are you saying he doesn't need more reliable weapons?
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap View Post
I don't think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the O-line this year. There was a couple games where they struggled, and Cook returning certainly didn't help.. but honestly, I think there's some validity in the OP's case. Dalton was GREAT about throwing the ball away before taking a sack... then Gruden and Lewis start talking about making "unscripted plays" and how he's throwing the ball too fast (which is the first time I have heard of that, nobody ever complained that Kurt Warner threw the ball too fast).....

...After they say that, suddenly he's holding onto the ball longer, and when the pocket finally collapsed, he tried to scramble right into a pass rusher or tried to outrun a guy faster than him and took a completely unnecessary sack rather than throw it away.

I trace Dalton's sack/holding the ball problems back to Marvin saying Dalton needed to "make unscripted plays" and Gruden saying Dalton "threw the ball too fast after the snap". For a quick anticipation thrower, that sounds like some of the worst coaching to strengths I have ever heard.

The unscripted plans is how Green Bay, & the Steelers play. Our guys need to play a game called "catch the ball as quick as possible"...That means run towards the ball even if they have to catch it above there head, get to it as quick as possible and come back for the ball.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:25 PM
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bengals Re: Dalton being over coached?

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Originally Posted by Bengal4ever68 View Post
The unscripted plans is how Green Bay, & the Steelers play. Our guys need to play a game called "catch the ball as quick as possible"...That means run towards the ball even if they have to catch it above there head, get to it as quick as possible and come back for the ball.
And that's why Aaron Rodgers and Ben Roethlisberger both have 50+ sack seasons. Not to mention Rodgers gets like 2 concussions a season it seems, and Roethlisberger misses a couple games a season and will likely be a cripple when he's 40 years old.

I just don't understand how with Kurt Warner, a quick release and throwing the ball quickly after the snap was an amazing thing, but apparently it's a problem with Dalton. If you ask me, that's a coaching problem. Pray that Gruden gets hired by one of the three teams he's interviewing for, and we can bring in Whisenhunt.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:27 PM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momadance02 View Post
are you saying he doesn't need more reliable weapons?
Reliable and physically gifted ones
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengal4ever68 View Post
I think the reasons for Daltons struggles is because he's being over coached...Dalton has to become more relaxed in the pocket. I think his game was better in 2011 than 2012. It seemed like Dalton changed, and became more tense & upright during this season.

I think Marvin or Jay are telling Dalton to do things a certain way causing him to start thinking to much instead of doing what's more comfortable for himself...He needs to start doing things his way & the coaches need to stop messing with his drop back stance and throwing from..his dropback in college looked way better than what it does now because he seemed more relaxed..Andy is thinking to much about looking "professional" instead of just playing the game & just doing it. I think over coaching is messing with his natural game...Andy needs to drop back the way he wants to drop back and he needs to throw the way he wants to. He's done it all his life a certain way and you shouldn't really mess with tha a whole lot. Gruden may be being hard on Dalton pounding things into his brain on how to do things a certain way...This is the only explanation for me on why Dalton is struggling. He looks different from his rookie season, in a bad way.

Gruden should also look into TCU's offensive playbook during the time Dalton was there and watch how they run 5 WR sets with good blocking schemes, & use plays where Andy steps out of the pocket a little bit or roll out, and maybe advise his to scramble & run it if he has the opportunity.

Look at how his throwing motion and drop back form are more relaxed and he is comfortable. He makes a good deep ball throw look easy, But recently he looks very tense and uptight, and his deep ball looks like he's just winging it with no touch to it. My advice to Dalton would be..Do things the way you know how to do them. Drop back the way you want to, & throw the ball the way you want to. Practice playing the game like yourself in the offseason & do what's comfortable to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQkHpQom85w
The coaching here is one of the reasons Andy has regressed IMO. I know we made the playoffs back to back. Let's be real with that though, if our D was ranked 15th, this team would have been 6-10.

I remember watching Andy last year in games 2-8 and thinking man he gets the ball out quick and with accuracy, uses his legs to move around, throws good on the run. It was also a lockout year and he had minimal coaching.

He is a different QB now and if I'm Andy I start looking at some film from TCU and the first half of last year. Ask Gruden WTF, why do I not look like a starting NFL QB anymore and what is up with the play calls.

This team is in desperate need of a new QB, TE, OL, and RB coach. When you coach somewhere for, in some cases 20 years what motivates you? You obviously don't have to worry about losing your job.

Our scouts are doing thier jobs lately, it is the coaches who are keeping the team from getting over the hump.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by D's Nuts and Bolts View Post
The coaching here is one of the reasons Andy has regressed IMO. I know we made the playoffs back to back. Let's be real with that though, if our D was ranked 15th, this team would have been 6-10.

I remember watching Andy last year in games 2-8 and thinking man he gets the ball out quick and with accuracy, uses his legs to move around, throws good on the run. It was also a lockout year and he had minimal coaching.

He is a different QB now and if I'm Andy I start looking at some film from TCU and the first half of last year. Ask Gruden WTF, why do I not look like a starting NFL QB anymore and what is up with the play calls.

This team is in desperate need of a new QB, TE, OL, and RB coach. When you coach somewhere for, in some cases 20 years what motivates you? You obviously don't have to worry about losing your job.

Our scouts are doing thier jobs lately, it is the coaches who are keeping the team from getting over the hump.
Agree 100 %
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

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Originally Posted by D's Nuts and Bolts View Post
The coaching here is one of the reasons Andy has regressed IMO. I know we made the playoffs back to back. Let's be real with that though, if our D was ranked 15th, this team would have been 6-10.

I remember watching Andy last year in games 2-8 and thinking man he gets the ball out quick and with accuracy, uses his legs to move around, throws good on the run. It was also a lockout year and he had minimal coaching.

He is a different QB now and if I'm Andy I start looking at some film from TCU and the first half of last year. Ask Gruden WTF, why do I not look like a starting NFL QB anymore and what is up with the play calls.

This team is in desperate need of a new QB, TE, OL, and RB coach. When you coach somewhere for, in some cases 20 years what motivates you? You obviously don't have to worry about losing your job.

Our scouts are doing thier jobs lately, it is the coaches who are keeping the team from getting over the hump.
Right. We put together long drives when Andy would nickel and dime down the field playing smart, but i noticed as the season went on we slowly started to go away from that.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:29 AM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

ever heard of a Sophomore Slump ? let's hope thats what it is and we can expect big things this year
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:31 AM
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Again with More weapons. Maybe a couple seven foot wide receivers would help.
Dennis Roland is close to seven foot tall.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:35 AM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

Um, Dalton was clearly more efficient this year in spite of sacked more. He jumped his passer rating about 8 points. Suggesting he regressed or had a "sophomore slump" is not accurate.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

Jesus. Dalton is a 2nd year player. He is fine. He's done some really good things and some really bad things. Bottom line, 2 winning seasons in a row. You can't credit him for all of that, but certainly you can't blame him for losing a lot of games. Is he the best qb in the league? No. Is he the worst? Absolutely no. Give the guy a running game and a #2 receiver and he'll be fine.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:41 AM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

Maybe Mike Brown will sign Tim Tebow since no one else wants him.
I'm not a Tebow fan but he does have good leadership skills and I think he would be a better back up than Gronkowski.....and will also sell jerseys.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:51 AM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

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Originally Posted by savagehenry54 View Post
Um, Dalton was clearly more efficient this year in spite of sacked more. He jumped his passer rating about 8 points. Suggesting he regressed or had a "sophomore slump" is not accurate.
Remember, the anti-Dalton gang and "concerned" posters are immune to logic and facts. Andy improves in virtually every stat category this year over last but somehow that is a slump. The lack of a usable outlet or #2 WR doesn't matter, nor does the lack of speed at RB or the bad pass protection when the lack of experience at Guard plus the bizarre Center rotation caught up to us. Not even the way to vanilla scheme with no elements in it to defuse pass rush. It's all Andy.....right...
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

Dalton's biggest problem is the long ball. We know it. Opposing teams know it. Ever wonder why AJ always gets open on deep routes? How many time have we heard the announcers say " Dalton should have made that throw. The receiver had his man beat." Fix that and life is good for Andy.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: Dalton being over coached?

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Originally Posted by momadance02 View Post
are you saying he doesn't need more reliable weapons?
Could he use a new TE? Yes. Gresham is a bum who's not going anywhere But as far as receivers go, he has plenty to work with.
It doesn't matter who is running the routes if you can't put the ball on the spot in time. That is the whole issue. He is greatly inconsistent and has been locking on targets.
I understand everyone wants to love Dalton. The bottom line is he has caused just as many problems for himself than anyone else.
HE needs work.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:30 AM
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Dennis Roland is close to seven foot tall.
Well when they declare him eligible, maybe they should throw him the ball.
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