Evidence suggests vaccinations are a hoax

[devils advocate]

I've only read a portion of this but thought it was important enough to spread the word.

It's a long read, important nonetheless.

Link

[berserkerone88]

Fake vaccines are exactly why we don't have polio and small pox anymore.

[Bengalzona]

First off, I didn't read the whole article because the wall of words was too big and complex for my feeble brain. After all, I'm only a caveman...



Anyway... this dude is from Engle-land, right? Do they have the same policies as us?

[devils advocate]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

Fake vaccines are exactly why we don't have polio and small pox anymore.

Read the article.

[devils advocate]

Originally Posted by Bengalzona

First off, I didn't read the whole article because the wall of words was too big and complex for my feeble brain. After all, I'm only a caveman...

.....

Anyway... this dude is from Engle-land, right? Do they have the same policies as us?

It effects the entire western world.

[Carp]

Originally Posted by devils advocate

Read the article.

It's 45 pages long!

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by devils advocate

Read the article.

I suggest you do the same.

On page 2, the author makes eight assertions. None of those eight assert vaccines are a hoax.

[devils advocate]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

I suggest you do the same.

On page 2, the author makes eight assertions. None of those eight assert vaccines are a hoax.

You are correct. However ( as the title of this thread states), it's merely evidence suggesting a hoax. Perhaps "hoax" isn't the correct word but for lack of a better term and considering the limited space seen in a thread title on this website, it's what I chose to write.

With that said, the evidence presented within the link is a strong indication that child vaccinations are not what we think they are...or accomplish all that we believe they should. At best as you may read, we've been mislead.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by devils advocate

You are correct. However ( as the title of this thread states), it's merely evidence suggesting a hoax. Perhaps "hoax" isn't the correct word but for lack of a better term and considering the limited space seen in a thread title on this website, it's what I chose to write.

With that said, the evidence presented within the link is a strong indication that child vaccinations are not what we think they are...or accomplish all that we believe they should. At best as you may read, we've been mislead.

Again you are incorrect. She isn't suggesting vaccines are a hoax.

She is suggesting information regarding adverse reactions due to vaccinations is being withheld so parents can't make fully informed decisions. Read the second line of the paper, "The Health Hazards of Disease Prevention."

You either don't understand the content of what you are reading or you are intentionally misleading people. Which is it?

Then show me one trusted medical organization which doesn't recommend vaccinations.

No vaccination is 100% free of adverse reactions. No vaccination is 100% effective. Even amoxicillin can cause death in certain individuals, but there isn't any anti-amoxicillin movement because people think antibiotics are like taking a Tic Tac and demand them when they clearly aren't indicated. However, the overwhelming mountain of evidence suggests the benefits of vaccinations outweigh the risk in the majority of people. Any attempt to deny that is akin to denying the law of gravitation. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but gravity (like vaccinations) can lead to adverse reactions in some situations as well. However, airline travelers deem the benefits of flight outweigh the risks of gravity. The anti-vaccination movement is fear mongering in its purest form.

[Ron Mexico]

I have three small questions about vaccines in general.

Aren't children not allowed to attend school if they aren't vaccinated?

Also, if vaccinations are a hoax, then how have they essentially eradicated certain diseases?

Lastly, I've heard people suggest that vaccinations could actually be a contributing factor in Autism and other disorders. I'm not sure if that is part of this article as I'm really just not willing to read that much at the moment. Is there any evidence that this is reality, or is it just speculation?

[berserkerone88]

Originally Posted by Ron Mexico

I have three small questions about vaccines in general.

Aren't children not allowed to attend school if they aren't vaccinated?

Also, if vaccinations are a hoax, then how have they essentially eradicated certain diseases?

Lastly, I've heard people suggest that vaccinations could actually be a contributing factor in Autism and other disorders. I'm not sure if that is part of this article as I'm really just not willing to read that much at the moment. Is there any evidence that this is reality, or is it just speculation?

There was a nice long thread on autism and vaccinations and Wingnut did a wonderful job dismantling the notion.

Bottom line, the study used to claim the autism/vaccine connection was entirely false and fraudulant and the doctor who did it was basically blacklisted for the stuff he pulled

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Ron Mexico

I have three small questions about vaccines in general.

Aren't children not allowed to attend school if they aren't vaccinated?

The laws vary from state to state, but in general children can't attend public school unless they have received the minimum vaccinations according to the state in question.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/laws/state-reqs.htm

Also, if vaccinations are a hoax, then how have they essentially eradicated certain diseases?

Good question. Ask devil's advocate if he would decline a tetanus booster if he cut himself on some old, dirt encrusted barbed wire? Would he decline the rabies vaccination and immunoglobulin after being bitten by a rabid animal?

Lastly, I've heard people suggest that vaccinations could actually be a contributing factor in Autism and other disorders. I'm not sure if that is part of this article as I'm really just not willing to read that much at the moment. Is there any evidence that this is reality, or is it just speculation?

There is no link between autism and vaccinations.

A link was first suggested by Andrew Wakefield whose research has been thoroughly discredited. Unfortunately, the fear still persists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

[devils advocate]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

Again you are incorrect. She isn't suggesting vaccines are a hoax.

She is suggesting information regarding adverse reactions due to vaccinations is being withheld so parents can't make fully informed decisions. Read the second line of the paper, "The Health Hazards of Disease Prevention."

You either don't understand the content of what you are reading or you are intentionally misleading people. Which is it?

Then show me one trusted medical organization which doesn't recommend vaccinations.

No vaccination is 100% free of adverse reactions. No vaccination is 100% effective. Even amoxicillin can cause death in certain individuals, but there isn't any anti-amoxicillin movement because people think antibiotics are like taking a Tic Tac and demand them when they clearly aren't indicated. However, the overwhelming mountain of evidence suggests the benefits of vaccinations outweigh the risk in the majority of people. Any attempt to deny that is akin to denying the law of gravitation. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but gravity (like vaccinations) can lead to adverse reactions in some situations as well. However, airline travelers deem the benefits of flight outweigh the risks of gravity. The anti-vaccination movement is fear mongering in its purest form.

No, she is actually evidencing a massive cover up perpetrated upon the British people by the British version of the CDC called the JVCI. She mentions meetings whose attendees include The Americans, Canadians, Scottish and Irish among others. She evidences Japan's discovery of flawed data pertaining to the measles and their subsequent abandonment of that particular vaccination. So, as I mentioned it affects the entire western world.

I'm not misleading anyone and haven't misread the article. As the article illustrates, trusted medical organizations are virtually non existent.

If you read the article you would understand that comparably, more prevention is considered when a fraction of children are at risk at the hands of toy makers and crib makers. As the article states, if vaccines were so safe, why the cover up and down right ignorance?

[devils advocate]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

The laws vary from state to state, but in general children can't attend public school unless they have received the minimum vaccinations according to the state in question.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/laws/state-reqs.htm


Good question. Ask devil's advocate if he would decline a tetanus booster if he cut himself on some old, dirt encrusted barbed wire? Would he decline the rabies vaccination and immunoglobulin after being bitten by a rabid animal?


There is no link between autism and vaccinations.

A link was first suggested by Andrew Wakefield whose research has been thoroughly discredited. Unfortunately, the fear still persists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

I would also suggest that Andrew Wakefields study is merely controversial and hasnt been thoroughly debunked, especially if it was by the JVCI or anything British.

[devils advocate]

Was Dr. Wakefield right afterall?


Wakefield sues BMJ

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by devils advocate

No, she is actually evidencing a massive cover up perpetrated upon the British people by the British version of the CDC called the JVCI. She mentions meetings whose attendees include The Americans, Canadians, Scottish and Irish among others. She evidences Japan's discovery of flawed data pertaining to the measles and their subsequent abandonment of that particular vaccination. So, as I mentioned it affects the entire western world.

I'm not misleading anyone and haven't misread the article. As the article illustrates, trusted medical organizations are virtually non existent.

If you read the article you would understand that comparably, more prevention is considered when a fraction of children are at risk at the hands of toy makers and crib makers. As the article states, if vaccines were so safe, why the cover up and down right ignorance?

Ah, yes; another conspiracy theory.

The author doesn't assert vaccines are a hoax. You claimed she did. That's misleading. Or poor reading comprehension.

Since when is Japan part of the "western world"? Are vaccinations not important to the Eastern World or the Thrid World? Wouldn't they be important to the entire world? I would think vaccinations are especially important to Third Wold countries because these countries have the highest rates of vaccine preventable diseases and the lowest rates of vaccinations vs. vaccine preventable diseases. But, those statistics are all part of the conspiracy theory, right?

If trusted medical organizations are virtually nonexistant, why would you believe someone like Andrew Wakefield? And who do you trust for medical advice/information? If you were bitten by a rabid animal would you decline the rabies vaccination and immunoglobulin? If you were cut by some dirt encrusted barbed wire and it had been more than 10 years since your last tetanus shot, would you decline the tetanus booster? If you're going to travel overseas do you get your travel immunizations or do you refuse them because it is all part of a massive cover up so Big Pharma can make money by keeping you sick?

Why the ignorance indeed.

Originally Posted by devils advocate

I would also suggest that Andrew Wakefields study is merely controversial and hasnt been thoroughly debunked, especially if it was by the JVCI or anything British.

I would suggest that is absolutely hilarious.

Wakefield's results have never been duplicated. By anyone. Ever.

The thing regarding scientific conclusions is that they are repeatable and thus verifiable by third parties. Wakefield's data and conclusions aren't. Period.

Originally Posted by devils advocate

Was Dr. Wakefield right afterall?


Wakefield sues BMJ

Oh, Jesus Christ.

From the first hyperlink...

In reading through the mBio’s online PDF file of the Mailman School of Public Health study, this sort of ‘jumped’ out at me:

“Sutterella species have been isolated from human and animal ***** (30–32) and have also been isolated from human infections below the diaphragm; most often from patients with appendicitis, peritonitis, or rectal or perirectal abscesses (22, 23). Sutterella sequences have been identified in fecal samples and intestinal biopsy samples from individuals with Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis but also from apparently healthy adults (24, 25, 27, 33). Thus, based on these previous findings, it remains unclear whether Sutterella species contribute to inflammation and infection or are simply normal inhabitants of the human microbiota in some individuals.”

It seems Sutterella is associated with infections and/or inflammatory processes (Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis), which leads me to ask this question:
What role do vaccines with their numerous antigen-reaction-producing chemicals play in the inflammatory process within the human body, especially in an infant’s or toddler’s body, whose immune system is not fully established until around 2 years of age or a little older, depending upon each child’s personal body chemistry?

The author quotes a source which cites the uncertainty of whether Sutterella is actually a pathogen or normal flora, yet in the very next sentence claims it is associated with infection and/or inflammation because it fits her preconceived narrative while simultaneously ignoring the information that doesn't fit her preconceived narrative...which she just quoted in the previous freakin' sentence!

Escherichia could be isolated from anyone with Crohn's, Ulcerative cololitis, or Autsim Spectrum Disorder. Why isn't the aurthor suggesting a PCR test for E. coli? Because it is ridiculous! That's why. Why test for something when there is no proven link that that something causes something else? Oh, the stupidity!

Vaccines aren't "antigen-reaction-producing chemicals". The author doesn't understand the simple difference between an antigen and an antibody! So her expertise in this area is completely null and void. Vaccines don't produce antigens. They are antigens. Antigens cause the body to produce antibodies. Antibodies result in immunity. Like the body producing antibodies to the common cold rhinovirus resulting in immunity to that particular rhinovirus. However, there are over 200 strains of the rhinoviruses and their antigenic surfaces mutate resulting in decreased efficacy of our antibodies to the newly mutated strain. That's why children get 8-10 colds a year and adults typically 2-3 colds per year. At that rate it would take decades to produce antibodies to all the rhinovirus strains provided the was no antigenic drift.

That article is ridiculous.

This isn't the first time Wakefield has sued. But, it would be the first time he would actually win one of his lawsuits. He should probably drop his latest suit before another judge orders him to pay for the defendant's legal fees. Again.

[Beaker]

Originally Posted by devils advocate

It's a long read, important nonetheless.

A long read yes...an important read, no. No need for me to restate wingnut's debunking of your assertion. He already did all the heavy lifting. So I will simply thank him for saving me alot of writing and smack you for starting another useless thread.

[devils advocate]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

Ah, yes; another conspiracy theory.

A conspiracy indeed!

Actually I dislike the term conspiracy. It carries with it a stigma that generally is difficult to overcome.

I've mentioned in the past, whether I'm right or wrong I just want the truth.

Originally Posted by Wingnut

The author doesn't assert vaccines are a hoax. You claimed she did. That's misleading. Or poor reading comprehension.

Just a poor choice of word(s) on my part, which I attempted make clear prior. In hindsight, I shoulda chosen a different title.

Originally Posted by Wingnut

Since when is Japan part of the "western world"? Are vaccinations not important to the Eastern World or the Thrid World? Wouldn't they be important to the entire world? I would think vaccinations are especially important to Third Wold countries because these countries have the highest rates of vaccine preventable diseases and the lowest rates of vaccinations vs. vaccine preventable diseases. But, those statistics are all part of the conspiracy theory, right?

For all intents and purposes, Japan is included in the western world. Still, you are correct with the rest of this paragraph.

Originally Posted by Wingnut

If trusted medical organizations are virtually nonexistant, why would you believe someone like Andrew Wakefield? And who do you trust for medical advice/information? If you were bitten by a rabid animal would you decline the rabies vaccination and immunoglobulin? If you were cut by some dirt encrusted barbed wire and it had been more than 10 years since your last tetanus shot, would you decline the tetanus booster? If you're going to travel overseas do you get your travel immunizations or do you refuse them because it is all part of a massive cover up so Big Pharma can make money by keeping you sick?

I don't know what to believe, especially "trusted" sources in any field and particularly where government is involved ( CDC, JVCI...any alphabet group).

This topic is limited to child vaccinations, even though the title was chosen haphazardly, which I fully admit. However that doesnt decrease the validity of the arguments presented. So yes I would receive the immunizations you mention in this paragraph, but my son will not receive any more immunizations until or unless I am satisfied.

Originally Posted by Wingnut

Why the ignorance indeed.

Indeed...

Originally Posted by Wingnut

I would suggest that is absolutely hilarious.

Wakefield's results have never been duplicated. By anyone. Ever.

I considered individualizing each link, but you're intelligent enough to consider them on your own.

1. The Journal of Pediatrics November 1999; 135(5):559-63
2. The Journal of Pediatrics 2000; 138(3): 366-372
3. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003; 23(6): 504-517
4. Journal of Neuroimmunology 2005
5. Brain, Behavior and Immunity 1993; 7: 97-103
6. Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28(4): 1-3
7. Neuropsychobiology 2005; 51:77-85
8. The Journal of Pediatrics May 2005;146(5):605-10
9. Autism Insights 2009; 1: 1-11
10. Canadian Journal of Gastroenterology February 2009; 23(2): 95-98
11. Annals of Clinical Psychiatry 2009:21(3): 148-161
12. Journal of Child Neurology June 29, 2009; 000:1-6
13. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders March 2009;39(3):405-13
14. Medical Hypotheses August 1998;51:133-144.
15. Journal of Child Neurology July 2000; ;15(7):429-35
16. Lancet. 1972;2:883–884.
17. Journal of Autism and Childhood Schizophrenia January-March 1971;1:48-62
18. Journal of Pediatrics March 2001;138:366-372.
19. Molecular Psychiatry 2002;7:375-382.
20. American Journal of Gastroenterolgy April 2004;598-605.
21. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003;23:504-517.
22. Neuroimmunology April 2006;173(1-2):126-34.
23. Prog. Neuropsychopharmacol Biol. Psychiatry December 30 2006;30:1472-1477.
24. Clinical Infectious Diseases September 1 2002;35(Suppl 1):S6-S16
25. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, 2004;70(11):6459-6465
26. Journal of Medical Microbiology October 2005;54:987-991
27. Archivos venezolanos de puericultura y pediatría 2006; Vol 69 (1): 19-25.
28. Gastroenterology. 2005:128 (Suppl 2);Abstract-303

Originally Posted by Wingnut

The thing regarding scientific conclusions is that they are repeatable and thus verifiable by third parties. Wakefield's data and conclusions aren't. Period.

Apparently...

Originally Posted by Wingnut

Oh, Jesus Christ.

From the first hyperlink...



The author quotes a source which cites the uncertainty of whether Sutterella is actually a pathogen or normal flora, yet in the very next sentence claims it is associated with infection and/or inflammation because it fits her preconceived narrative while simultaneously ignoring the information that doesn't fit her preconceived narrative...which she just quoted in the previous freakin' sentence!

Escherichia could be isolated from anyone with Crohn's, Ulcerative cololitis, or Autsim Spectrum Disorder. Why isn't the aurthor suggesting a PCR test for E. coli? Because it is ridiculous! That's why. Why test for something when there is no proven link that that something causes something else? Oh, the stupidity!

Vaccines aren't "antigen-reaction-producing chemicals". The author doesn't understand the simple difference between an antigen and an antibody! So her expertise in this area is completely null and void. Vaccines don't produce antigens. They are antigens. Antigens cause the body to produce antibodies. Antibodies result in immunity. Like the body producing antibodies to the common cold rhinovirus resulting in immunity to that particular rhinovirus. However, there are over 200 strains of the rhinoviruses and their antigenic surfaces mutate resulting in decreased efficacy of our antibodies to the newly mutated strain. That's why children get 8-10 colds a year and adults typically 2-3 colds per year. At that rate it would take decades to produce antibodies to all the rhinovirus strains provided the was no antigenic drift.

That article is ridiculous.

I am by far no expert on this or any medical topic and it could be my reading comprehension is questionable. With that said, the key phrase or word to me in this paragraph is 'uncertainty'. Im simply presenting evidence that what we think and who we trust, be it medically or otherwise, shouldnt be a given.

Originally Posted by Wingnut

This isn't the first time Wakefield has sued. But, it would be the first time he would actually win one of his lawsuits. He should probably drop his latest suit before another judge orders him to pay for the defendant's legal fees. Again.

I would suggest researching Brian Deer. Of course I dont claim to know all there is to know, just that he has an agenda and is backed by limitless money, big pharma among other interested parties whose purpose would be to supress any conflicting data regarding their interests ie child vaccinations.

[devils advocate]

Originally Posted by Beaker

A long read yes...an important read, no. No need for me to restate wingnut's debunking of your assertion. He already did all the heavy lifting. So I will simply thank him for saving me alot of writing and smack you for starting another useless thread.

Not even a nice try, Muppet. So its Wingnut's hand up your ***?

You're afraid of heavy lifting just admit it.

You can thank me for presenting evidence that you and others would never see, be it this topic or any other. You're welcome!

You should just smack yourself.

[BigPapaKain]

tl;dr

Seriously, I got some shots as a kid and I don't have polio. I know someone who didn't get those shots and has polio.

Pretty much all the proof I need.

[Beaker]

Originally Posted by devils advocate

You're afraid of heavy lifting just admit it.

That may be...but you and your inane topic are nothing more than light work. It must be sad spending your life worried that everyone is out to get you. I will thank you for one thing, providing us with something to laugh at.

[devils advocate]

Originally Posted by Beaker

That may be...but you and your inane topic are nothing more than light work. It must be sad spending your life worried that everyone is out to get you. I will thank you for one thing, providing us with something to laugh at.

Your reluctance to address the topic is as telling as your moniker.

[Beaker]

Originally Posted by devils advocate

Your reluctance to address the topic is as telling as your moniker.

I address all worthwhile topics.

[devils advocate]

Originally Posted by Beaker

I address all worthwhile topics.

Which ironically explains why you've replied to this one, ya Lint Licker!


beak·er
/ˈbēkər/
Noun
A lipped cylindrical glass container for laboratory use.
A large drinking container with a wide mouth.

[Jasonew6]

Originally Posted by devils advocate

I've only read a portion of this but thought it was important enough to spread the word.

It's a long read, important nonetheless.

Link

Can you cite the page and paragraph where they called vaccines a hoax? I read the first couple of pages and skimmed several more. All I was was that their regulatory agency was trying to downplay the safety concerns of certain vaccines.