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  #76  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by The_B2S View Post
Yeah. Okay. Can you answer my question? What does Dalton do better than CK?
What part of CK's team is not better than the Bengals.

Oline? Dline? Receivers? RBs? LBs? COACHING????

Name one facet of that 49er team that isn't better than the Bengals.

The Dline is maybe a push and after that, every single facet of that 49er team is better than what Dalton is working with.
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  #77  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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You have no data to prove that.
And neither do you, quite honestly. Colin, as I said, has done phenomenal in his time starting, but it's a small sample size to compare with. Dalton's #3 in TDs thrown in first two seasons. This is essentially a pointless debate. There's not enough there to compare the two.
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  #78  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Again, you are insane if you think the bengals o-line is even close to as good as SF's.
Not at all. You are insane if you think the Bengals offensive line is a handicap. Certainly a top 10 line in the league. The nice thing for SF is that Kaepernick is dynamic with the ball in his hands if things break down. It helps them to look better then what they are.
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  #79  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

Honestly he probably doesn't develop here. Different organizations. Different coaching.
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  #80  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by savagehenry54 View Post
What part of CK's team is not better than the Bengals.

Oline? Dline? Receivers? RBs? LBs? COACHING????

Name one facet of that 49er team that isn't better than the Bengals.

The Dline is maybe a push and after that, every single facet of that 49er team is better than what Dalton is working with.
Our kicker is better
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  #81  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by savagehenry54 View Post
What part of CK's team is not better than the Bengals.

Oline? Dline? Receivers? RBs? LBs? COACHING????

Name one facet of that 49er team that isn't better than the Bengals.

The Dline is maybe a push and after that, every single facet of that 49er team is better than what Dalton is working with.
That doesn't matter. You can still evaluate the player's skillset. The Bengals are better than the Colts in terms of offensive talent. But I can say unequivocally, for instance, that Luck has a better pocket awareness and more pocket mobility than does Dalton. When you compare Dalton and CK it's clear that in all of the major categories to evaluate a QB, arm strength, accuracy, pocket awareness, pocket mobility, anticipation, speed, running ability, etc., that CK is obviously better than Dalton.
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  #82  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Not at all. You are insane if you think the Bengals offensive line is a handicap. Certainly a top 10 line in the league. The nice thing for SF is that Kaepernick is dynamic with the ball in his hands if things break down. It helps them to look better then what they are.
It ain't gonna help when he gets smacked, which he will. These dudes are freaks, he's gonna take a shot, and then what?

I'm tellin ya, defenses will adjust.
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  #83  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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You have no data to support that.
And you have no data to support your opinion.

In order to have data, you would have to put dalton on the 9ers teams and put Kaepernick on the bengals and see how they do.

If you were to have an actual controlled experiment and both QBs were operating under be exact same conditions, I say dalton would be better and quicker in reading defenses, quicker at making decisions, get rid of the ball quicker, throw more accurately and consistently.
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  #84  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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SF is all about Jim Harbaugh. He took a terrible Stanford team and made them into something and found Andrew Luck. He went to SF and made a terrible Alex Smith into a real NFL QB. He drafted Kaepernick because he saw something in him, developed him and then made a change while Alex Smith was actually playing great football. You really see our coaching staff doing something like that? I don't think so.

Look I'm not a huge Dalton fan but Gruden saw something in him and believed he was the guy to run his system. Had we drafted Kaepernick without the right coach he wouldn't have been doing this with us.

But I do have to say Crabtree really hadn't done that much until Kaepernick became QB and since Kaepernick has been QB Vernon Davis has been basically non-existent except for that one long pass today. I'm really not that sure that they have such better players than us. Harbaugh just makes them play ball
Agreed. Over and over and over again. Coaching matters, and that includes developing game plans. Marvin wants to be so good, he doesn't have to plan. He wants to be able to do what he wants, not take what the other team gives you. Back in 2005, we were that good. We rolled over people. Carson goes down. We lose a few key players, and we're right back to crap city. If we had decent coaching the team we have right now would still be in the playoffs. I don't think the offense looks appreciably different under Gruden than it did under Brat. That tells me that Marvin's still calling some shots on play selection. If Gruden can be better than he's being allowed to be, we'll find out once he takes a HC job.
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  #85  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:20 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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That doesn't matter. You can still evaluate the player's skillset. The Bengals are better than the Colts in terms of offensive talent. But I can say unequivocally, for instance, that Luck has a better pocket awareness and more pocket mobility than does Dalton. When you compare Dalton and CK it's clear that in all of the major categories to evaluate a QB, arm strength, accuracy, pocket awareness, pocket mobility, anticipation, speed, running ability, etc., that CK is obviously better than Dalton.
The colts have better offensive talent
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  #86  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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The colts have better offensive talent
At QB, yes. Where else?
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  #87  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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That doesn't matter. You can still evaluate the player's skillset. The Bengals are better than the Colts in terms of offensive talent. But I can say unequivocally, for instance, that Luck has a better pocket awareness and more pocket mobility than does Dalton. When you compare Dalton and CK it's clear that in all of the major categories to evaluate a QB, arm strength, accuracy, pocket awareness, pocket mobility, anticipation, speed, running ability, etc., that CK is obviously better than Dalton.
Yes, he's got a better arm than Dalton, no doubt about it. I'm not contesting that. I am of the opinion that these QBs who wanna get all squirelly and run that sprint option....they'll get dealt with by the fastest, strongest sobs on the planet eventually, namely, NFL defensive players.

When they tuck that ball and run, they no longer have the protection of the rules that have been bent to favor them. So go ahead, make your QB a RB hybrid....I don't think it will work long term.
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  #88  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:26 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Agreed. Over and over and over again. Coaching matters, and that includes developing game plans. Marvin wants to be so good, he doesn't have to plan. He wants to be able to do what he wants, not take what the other team gives you. Back in 2005, we were that good. We rolled over people. Carson goes down. We lose a few key players, and we're right back to crap city. If we had decent coaching the team we have right now would still be in the playoffs. I don't think the offense looks appreciably different under Gruden than it did under Brat. That tells me that Marvin's still calling some shots on play selection. If Gruden can be better than he's being allowed to be, we'll find out once he takes a HC job.
I've said for a long time that Marvin is definitely not a big game coach and that's part of the problem.

I will say, and obviously i am sure many will disagree with me on these boards, but I actually think Gruden has done a pretty good job. Most GM's and OC's out there were not enamored with Dalton when he came out in the draft. Many didn't see him as starting level quality. Gruden did and has won a lot of games with Dalton. That's why he's getting so many head coaching interviews.
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  #89  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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At QB, yes. Where else?
RB
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  #90  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:28 AM
The_B2S The_B2S is offline
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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And you have no data to support your opinion.

In order to have data, you would have to put dalton on the 9ers teams and put Kaepernick on the bengals and see how they do.

If you were to have an actual controlled experiment and both QBs were operating under be exact same conditions, I say dalton would be better and quicker in reading defenses, quicker at making decisions, get rid of the ball quicker, throw more accurately and consistently.
I guess we can never know if Joe Montana is better than Joey Harrington by that "logic."

Dalton gets rid of the ball quicker, but that's not inherently good, especially since Dalton has been criticized by his coaches for not letting plays develop. Dalton does not read defenses better if interception percentage is any indicator. He's definitely not more accurate. The two have the same completion percentage, but CK averages almost a 1.5 yards per attempt more than Dalton, meaning that he throws the ball down the field more.

Again, I repeat, in every major way to evaluate a QB, CK is better than Dalton.
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  #91  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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I've said for a long time that Marvin is definitely not a big game coach and that's part of the problem.

I will say, and obviously i am sure many will disagree with me on these boards, but I actually think Gruden has done a pretty good job. Most GM's and OC's out there were not enamored with Dalton when he came out in the draft. Many didn't see him as starting level quality. Gruden did and has won a lot of games with Dalton. That's why he's getting so many head coaching interviews.
He's not a game coach. He's a front office guy. He looked great in Baltimore because of the personnel. Did they drop off a bit when he left?
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  #92  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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At QB, yes. Where else?
Pretty much everywhere else.
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  #93  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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RB
Good point, but who isn't?
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  #94  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:31 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Yes, he's got a better arm than Dalton, no doubt about it. I'm not contesting that. I am of the opinion that these QBs who wanna get all squirelly and run that sprint option....they'll get dealt with by the fastest, strongest sobs on the planet eventually, namely, NFL defensive players.

When they tuck that ball and run, they no longer have the protection of the rules that have been bent to favor them. So go ahead, make your QB a RB hybrid....I don't think it will work long term.
I think you may be right about this.

The problem is that it's not like Dalton is polar opposite. He's not some pure pocketing passing, big armed QB. I mean in actuality part of his allure was that he could run decently well which in theory was supposed to allow him to move out of the pocket and extend plays.

At the end of the day every QB is going to face pressure, especially in the playoffs. Eli Manning got murdered last year but he stood in the pocket and made the reads and throws that he needed to make. That is the step that Andy is going to have to take.
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  #95  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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He's not a game coach. He's a front office guy. He looked great in Baltimore because of the personnel. Did they drop off a bit when he left?
First of all- yes they did drop off after he left. His defense was mentioned as possibly the best ever. They never reached that level of success again and have yet to make it back to the Superbowl.

Second, that is as stupid a statement as I have ever read. Marvin is a COACH. Period. He has been successful in every coaching position he has ever had.

I don't recall him ever doing anything in a front office.
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  #96  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:33 AM
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Pretty much everywhere else.
WR? OLine? TE? I don't think so.

Coaching? BIG YES!
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

I'm sorry but their receiving corps is about on par with ours. They went out and got Manningham to be their #2 and he's been hurt most of the year. They drafted Jenkins in the 1st round and he hasn't played at all. The signed Randy Moss who nobody wanted at all last year, basically TO part 2. Crabtree doesn't hold a candle to AJ.
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  #98  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:35 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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I guess we can never know if Joe Montana is better than Joey Harrington by that "logic."

Dalton gets rid of the ball quicker, but that's not inherently good, especially since Dalton has been criticized by his coaches for not letting plays develop. Dalton does not read defenses better if interception percentage is any indicator. He's definitely not more accurate. The two have the same completion percentage, but CK averages almost a 1.5 yards per attempt more than Dalton, meaning that he throws the ball down the field more.

Again, I repeat, in every major way to evaluate a QB, CK is better than Dalton.
No, according to your logic, you would be trying to argue that Harrington was better than Montana.
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  #99  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:37 AM
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First of all- yes they did drop off after he left. His defense was mentioned as possibly the best ever. They never reached that level of success again and have yet to make it back to the Superbowl.

Second, that is as stupid a statement as I have ever read. Marvin is a COACH. Period. He has been successful in every coaching position he has ever had.

I don't recall him ever doing anything in a front office.
What I'm saying is that he's very good at identifying talent. I don't think their D dropped off until they started losing personnel. He's a good person and all that, but I don't think he's a great game coach. He's still a game under 500 since he's been here. Most people wouldn't still have their jobs with that kind of performance.
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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I guess we can never know if Joe Montana is better than Joey Harrington by that "logic."

Dalton gets rid of the ball quicker, but that's not inherently good, especially since Dalton has been criticized by his coaches for not letting plays develop. Dalton does not read defenses better if interception percentage is any indicator. He's definitely not more accurate. The two have the same completion percentage, but CK averages almost a 1.5 yards per attempt more than Dalton, meaning that he throws the ball down the field more.

Again, I repeat, in every major way to evaluate a QB, CK is better than Dalton.
And I repeat, you are simply wrong.

Dalton would be every bit as good and probably better if he was on SF right now.
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