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  #26  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: I will admit it.

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
I don't understand how people cannot have questions about Dalton. Let's face it, Dalton has some serious holes in his game:

-poor downfield accuracy
-poor pocket presence
-struggles seeing the field and making correct reads
-makes poor decisions and prone to critical mistakes.
-played his worst football in the post-season

I like Dalton, but ih doesnt significantly progress this year it will be time to start looking for a new QB.
Gruden will be gone long before Dalton is gone from here.You have to use a QB the right way Dalton did not have a great deep ball in college so why force the issue in the pros.Played his worst in post season game that his coach only ran the ball 12 times getting 5 yards a pop.You want Andy to do Gruden job and call the plays in his 2nd year.You want Andy to block the guys so he feels comfortable in the pocket which he lost when they put Cook back in for Robinson.
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:28 PM
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QB have a clock in thier head they count down after the ball is hiked.Most get 3 to 5 secs the guys with real good lines can stand back there all day that being like 5 to 7 secs.Andy gets to about 2 secs and starts to feel pressure.Somewhere the protection breaks down.This reflects on the O line coach the TE coach the RB coach and above all the OC.

P.S. I know the 3 to 5 step drops affect this

Last edited by BengalsBong; 01-13-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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  #28  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:29 PM
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1. That was his knock coming into the league, so why is everyone so surprised that he still struggles with it? We knew he didn't have Palmer's arm or Brees' accuracy, so how are people still trying to come to terms with it?

I am not suprised. I wonder whether he can be good in this area which you have to be to be a legit franchise QB. I mean, Dalton has been playing QB probably since he was a little kid. If he's not good at something that has consistently been identified as a problem is it reasonable for us to expect him to magically improve against the best competition/athletes on the planet? If our QB cannot hit intermediate and deep throws with consistently and with accuaracy then it is time to find someone that can. Pretty much my point.

2. The center makes line adjustments and you need to have stability at the center position for the line to be any good. Having 3 different centers screws up chemistry and muddles communication. As a result, the line will struggle.

Yeah, I was not happy with Cook but I'm not giving Dalton a pass bc Cook didn't play well. Plenty of QB's thrive under constant pressue. Again, to be a franchise QB you have to be able to make plays under duress and less than ideal circumstances. If we're saying that Dalton unraveled bc of the center positon that is not acceptable to me.

3. He can't catch the ball that he just threw, so over coming drops isn't his job; its the receiver's. It has nothing to do with mental toughness if your receivers can't catch, to say nothing if they can't get seperation. So how exactly are the receivers' short comings the fault of Dalton?

Like I mentioned before, I don't just go off of the stats. I thought Dalton threw the ball extremely well in Pitt despite the terrible stats. But, he leaves way too many plays on the field. As an NFL QB you need to put the ball in tight windows. Guys are not going to have 5 yards of separation. The ability to put the ball in tight windows and anticiapte is what makes the great ones great. To be an upper echelon QB you need to be able to do that with some consistency.
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:30 PM
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2011-20 TD's-13 INT's-3300 yards-80 QBR
2012-27 TD's-16 INT's-3600 yards-87 QBR

If Dalton keeps progressing and gets a running game along with a number 2 reciever, his statline could be better next year than what I put.

2013-34 TD's-19 INT's-3900 yards-94 QBR
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  #30  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:31 PM
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When I read the title of this thread, I thought he was coming out of the closet
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:36 PM
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Gruden will be gone long before Dalton is gone from here.You have to use a QB the right way Dalton did not have a great deep ball in college so why force the issue in the pros.Played his worst in post season game that his coach only ran the ball 12 times getting 5 yards a pop.You want Andy to do Gruden job and call the plays in his 2nd year.You want Andy to block the guys so he feels comfortable in the pocket which he lost when they put Cook back in for Robinson.
1. Because you have to be able to throw deep to be a viable NFL QB. If you are one dimensional as a passer/offense you will not be able to move the ball.

2. Regardless of the gameplan Dalton played poorly. Honestly, be objective. Are you really going to try to argue that Dalton threw the ball well in Houston? He was awful. Yes, it was tough sledding against a great Hou Defense but we need our QB to be able to step up and make plays. Dalton didn't do that. He withered under pressure and played his worst football of the year. He was undecisive, inaccurate and overall looked rattled. That concerns me. I expect leaders to perform under extreme pressure, not fold.
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:41 PM
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I still am confused why we didn't draft CK over Dalton. How could our FO think that a 6'4 QB with speed, strength, rocket arm, play making ability wouldn't be perfect for this offense. Dalton just doesn't have the pocket presence nor the ability to make something happen when the play breaks down. Yes, we have made the playoffs in back to back years, but I fear Andy will not get any better, while CK is just scratching the surface. 2013 is Dalton's last year to prove something. I believe we need to draft a late round QB this year,
CK would be broken playing in the AFC North. I think that what happened to RGIII, he had to play the AFC North this year and took some big hits. Imagine if he had to play against the likes of Baltimore, Pitt, and Cleveland twice a year. CK would be hurt and everyone would be saying "Why didn't we get Dalton?"
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  #33  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:45 PM
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I see your point. The gameplan to not include AJ was maybe the dumbest playoff strategy ever. Quite frankly, I blame Marvin for that. Eventhough it was Gruden's idea Marv has veto power and as HC you gotta kill that one. I was not a fan of Cook and he was terrible down the stetch. Boling also seemed to have hit a wall. But overall I think the Oline is good. Certainly good enough to win. I think the WR's without Sanu are good enough to win. I question whether Dalton is a good enough QB to win. What I see happening is that defenses have adjusted to the Bengals. They stack the box, put a safety over the top of Green and sit on the underneath, dink and dunk stuff. So far, Dalton and the offense as a whole have not been to counter that which is a serious problem.
You also have to put trust into your coaches Marvin was always a Defensive coach.He needs a good Offensive coach to do his job so Marvin can do his job as HC.Marvin does not need to look over Zimmers shoulder at his gameplan and he should not have to do it with Gruden.
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  #34  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:45 PM
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When I read the title of this thread, I thought he was coming out of the closet
Sorry. Your wish was not granted.
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  #35  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:48 PM
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I am not suprised. I wonder whether he can be good in this area which you have to be to be a legit franchise QB. I mean, Dalton has been playing QB probably since he was a little kid. If he's not good at something that has consistently been identified as a problem is it reasonable for us to expect him to magically improve against the best competition/athletes on the planet? If our QB cannot hit intermediate and deep throws with consistently and with accuaracy then it is time to find someone that can. Pretty much my point.


Yeah, I was not happy with Cook but I'm not giving Dalton a pass bc Cook didn't play well. Plenty of QB's thrive under constant pressue. Again, to be a franchise QB you have to be able to make plays under duress and less than ideal circumstances. If we're saying that Dalton unraveled bc of the center positon that is not acceptable to me.


Like I mentioned before, I don't just go off of the stats. I thought Dalton threw the ball extremely well in Pitt despite the terrible stats. But, he leaves way too many plays on the field. As an NFL QB you need to put the ball in tight windows. Guys are not going to have 5 yards of separation. The ability to put the ball in tight windows and anticiapte is what makes the great ones great. To be an upper echelon QB you need to be able to do that with some consistency.
It's hard to throw the deep ball when you can't step up in the pocket because your line is collapsing. It's even harder to make the completion when you're trying to put it where only your receiver can get it because they're constantly blanketed with defenders.

You can't thrive under pressure when your offensive coordinator won't change his game plan to quick slants and screens and you're constantly waiting for a receiver to do something. Although I will grant you that maybe Dalton should use his legs to make a play a bit more often, but you'll have that.

Dalton does have a problem with locking on, but it's hard to go through progressions when your constantly having defenders in your face. Dalton has proven he can thread the needle - as long as he can actually step in to the throw. It's hard to be accurate off your back foot.
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  #36  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:49 PM
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CK would be broken playing in the AFC North. I think that what happened to RGIII, he had to play the AFC North this year and took some big hits. Imagine if he had to play against the likes of Baltimore, Pitt, and Cleveland twice a year. CK would be hurt and everyone would be saying "Why didn't we get Dalton?"
Didn't RGIII first get hurt against the Ratbirds?
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  #37  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:54 PM
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CK would be broken playing in the AFC North. I think that what happened to RGIII, he had to play the AFC North this year and took some big hits. Imagine if he had to play against the likes of Baltimore, Pitt, and Cleveland twice a year. CK would be hurt and everyone would be saying "Why didn't we get Dalton?"
Oh great, more intelligent "AFC North" talk.

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  #38  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
I don't understand how people cannot have questions about Dalton. Let's face it, Dalton has some serious holes in his game:

-poor downfield accuracy
-poor pocket presence
-struggles seeing the field and making correct reads
-makes poor decisions and prone to critical mistakes.
-played his worst football in the post-season

I like Dalton, but ih doesnt significantly progress this year it will be time to start looking for a new QB.
i question your prone to critical mistakes.. do you know he has yet to turn the ball over in the Red Zone... he actually by stats improved in his 2nd year with probably a weaker Receiving corp around him
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  #39  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:58 PM
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1. Because you have to be able to throw deep to be a viable NFL QB. If you are one dimensional as a passer/offense you will not be able to move the ball.

2. Regardless of the gameplan Dalton played poorly. Honestly, be objective. Are you really going to try to argue that Dalton threw the ball well in Houston? He was awful. Yes, it was tough sledding against a great Hou Defense but we need our QB to be able to step up and make plays. Dalton didn't do that. He withered under pressure and played his worst football of the year. He was undecisive, inaccurate and overall looked rattled. That concerns me. I expect leaders to perform under extreme pressure, not fold.
I seen Gresh droping balls.I seen a 5'7 WR named Hawkins sit down on a route/scramble and wait for the ball to come to him if a short guy feels pressure over his back he better run back to the ball which he had the 5 yard cusion to do so but he let the guy reach over his shoulder and knock the ball down.Daltons protection ****** at the end of the year all the sacks we gave up Dalton was not comfortable in the pocket at all he had no confidence in his line at all.Give the man good blocking consistantly before you say he is a bust.You do not have to throw the ball deep everyone did this to him his rookie year thats all that was talked about to the extent Dalton himself was worried about it.What Dalton needs is for someone to get in his ear and say screw the reporters and the people screaming long ball and do your thing be you do not try to be the QB they want you to be be the QB that you know you can be and are.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:09 PM
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It's.
Only.
Been.
Two.
Years.
You.
Damn.
Maniacs.
All his problems are fixable with a better line and better WRs
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  #41  
Old 01-13-2013, 04:15 PM
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Dalton was sacked 46 times this year.
Dalton was on the run, much more than that.

We need Robinson to step up at Center, or we need to draft a good Center, because Cook is terrible.

We also played musical chairs at #2 WR all year. I hope that issue is settled this offseason. I think Sanu will be a good possession WR, and the light came on for Jones. Jones preformed OK the last few games, but Dalton was running for his life, because of Cook.

We also have to look at Gresham dropping a ton of balls, and too many of them on 3rd down.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:21 PM
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All his problems are fixable with a better line and better WRs
He doesn't even need better; he needs consistant.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:34 PM
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i question your prone to critical mistakes.. do you know he has yet to turn the ball over in the Red Zone... he actually by stats improved in his 2nd year with probably a weaker Receiving corp around him
Wasn't he amongst the leaders in INT's? I believe he was the league leader in pick 6's.

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I seen Gresh droping balls.I seen a 5'7 WR named Hawkins sit down on a route/scramble and wait for the ball to come to him if a short guy feels pressure over his back he better run back to the ball which he had the 5 yard cusion to do so but he let the guy reach over his shoulder and knock the ball down.Daltons protection ****** at the end of the year all the sacks we gave up Dalton was not comfortable in the pocket at all he had no confidence in his line at all.Give the man good blocking consistantly before you say he is a bust.You do not have to throw the ball deep everyone did this to him his rookie year thats all that was talked about to the extent Dalton himself was worried about it.What Dalton needs is for someone to get in his ear and say screw the reporters and the people screaming long ball and do your thing be you do not try to be the QB they want you to be be the QB that you know you can be and are.
Name a good QB that cannot hit deep and intermediate throws with any consistency?

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All his problems are fixable with a better line and better WRs
I don't know fellas. All I keep hearing is Dalton was bad because of this or that. I think a franchise QB needs to be able to overcome some adversity. Nothing is ever going to be perfect in the NFL. Probably every team has a weakness on the Oline and would like some upgrades in the receiving corp. Overall, the Oline is good. We probably have the best bookends in the league. We have AJ Green + some legit talent in gresham, Hawkins and Jones to catch the ball. I mean, it sounds like you all are saying 'give dalton a dominant line, a clean pocket and open WR's and he'll pick you apart.' Never going to happen. You have to be able to make throws in tight windows and be able to deal w a pass rush.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:19 PM
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My biggest concern with him is whether or not his lack of accuracy with the long ball effectively means that we are wasting AJ's talents by keeping Andy.

He's proven he has the arm, but can he make the arm more accurate?
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:44 PM
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I still am confused why we didn't draft CK over Dalton. How could our FO think that a 6'4 QB with speed, strength, rocket arm, play making ability wouldn't be perfect for this offense. Dalton just doesn't have the pocket presence nor the ability to make something happen when the play breaks down. Yes, we have made the playoffs in back to back years, but I fear Andy will not get any better, while CK is just scratching the surface. 2013 is Dalton's last year to prove something. I believe we need to draft a late round QB this year,
Readiness. The Bengals needed a guy to start right away. plus they liked Andy's intangibles: winning a bowl game, accurate, poise, killer instinct and likes to put teams away. This is Collins first year as a starter and I'd say he's making the most of it. I don't read to much into QB height, since OL are supposed to get low. When they get stood up in front of the QB, you should expect some problems. I try not to judge Dalton too harshly. He's still a young QB and they are bringing him along slowly.

This is his second season, the year they seem to have introduced the back shoulder throw and the low throw where only his receiver can get it. He's also been reading through his progressions better instead of keying in on A.J. Green. If we had a veteran offense with the way defense and ST played, the Bengals would probably still be in the playoffs. This is a problem that can only be solved with time. The Oline had only Whit that played 3 full seasons worth of games, a 3rd year TE who is statistically improving (in drops! ), A #1 WR who has struggled some, 5 different starting #2 WRs, (Binns, Tate, Hawkins, Sanu, Jones) and a RB who is a pure product of the OLine. The 49ers have a lot of veterans on their offense that will make a young QB look better.
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:13 PM
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The only issues I have seen with Dalton all stem from lack of protection from the O-Line, and that has caused him issues even when he does have time to throw because he doesn't trust his protection. It has messed up his timing and his accuracy, his ability to pull the trigger and his sense of when to hang in the pocket and when to a scramble. He just issues are the revolving door at one of the starting WR positions, lack of a RB who is a threat in the passing game, and no threat of play-action.

His arm strength, accuracy etc are all fine.
I am giving him the benefit of the doubt because of the line, they seemed to regress as the year went on
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:38 PM
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My biggest concern with him is whether or not his lack of accuracy with the long ball effectively means that we are wasting AJ's talents by keeping Andy.

He's proven he has the arm, but can he make the arm more accurate?
Megatron broke the record on a 5 yard crossing route that he turned into about 20 yards you do not need to throw the ball 40 yards to use AJ the right way.AJ is more then just a deep threat and he should be used like it he is our play maker get the ball in his hands.On 5 yard routes on 15 yard routes every throw to AJ does not need to be 40 yards take your shots deep but do not live and die by them because they are a low % catch to begin with.

Last edited by BengalsBong; 01-13-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:48 PM
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You must have missed the Dalton interview when he said that when he runs out of the pocket and extends the play nobody is getting open.The WR need to learn how to find the open spots on the field and run to them when Andy extends plays.
What would you expect him to say, of course he is going to throw the receivers under the bus, because that is the only thing he can throw, certainly not a football.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
I don't understand how people cannot have questions about Dalton. Let's face it, Dalton has some serious holes in his game:

-poor downfield accuracy
-poor pocket presence
-struggles seeing the field and making correct reads
-makes poor decisions and prone to critical mistakes.
-played his worst football in the post-season

I like Dalton, but ih doesnt significantly progress this year it will be time to start looking for a new QB.
I also hate to say it but after watching Colin Kaepernick light up Green Bay with laser like throws and legs that Mike Vick would kill for........well....it was like comparing a brand new Ferrari and a Toyota Prius......kind of made me sick seeing what we are missing out on.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:20 PM
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Next year Dalton will be a jugernaut and lead us to a first round bye. 4000 Yards 35 TD's and 13 INT's. 2013 is year of the Dalton and Bengal. We will upgrade a few spots on offense and it will be on like donkey kong.

He has the tools. His mental clock will only get better. In the beginning of the year Jay was having to slow him down because he was getting the ball out to fast. At the end of the year he was holding it too long. He will find that balance and throw it on time or pull it down and run and the Bengals will win.
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