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  #26  
Old 01-13-2013, 10:40 PM
renorvis renorvis is offline
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Originally Posted by pulses View Post
If you can get a dominant Guard who is CLEARLY better than what we have u do it. We have enough picks to take one early and still fill all of our needs.
Dude having a dominant line is about continuity. You can shuffle pieces and expect the line to be on point. Case in point, Cook coming back mid stream sort of messed our offense up a little bit. Boling held his own this season and deserves a chance to keep his job. Who is to say that Larry Watford would come in and outplay Boling? You say his is dominant, but he hasn't taken a single snap in the NFL and say he is better? Makes no sense to me. Guard is not a need no matter how you try to slice it. If Watford comes in the league and an instant success than more power to him. But I wouldn't waste an early pick on a guard, when we have one that started the whole season, stayed healthy and played pretty darn good. Again removing a young guy with experience for a younger guy with no experience and not expecting a drop off is a pipe dream.
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  #27  
Old 01-13-2013, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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I'd have no problem with that. Gotta be strong up front, especially in the middle.
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Yeah Frederick 6'4 338 and Warford 6'3 343 with what we have now sounds real good!

Frederick and Zietler reunited and it feels so good. I really hope they put Frederick in strips. Robinson did well, but obviously if the coaches start Cook over you then they don't feel as good about him as we do.

Frederick has the size to stick it to these NT, and guy like Watt.

I wonder if Warton will be in play at all this year at guard? I would like them to get some depth at tackle and if Andre gets away you would have to look at Fluker in the first. Not alot of talent at Tackle this year.

Last edited by D's Nuts and Bolts; 01-13-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:44 PM
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Dude having a dominant line is about continuity. You can shuffle pieces and expect the line to be on point. Case in point, Cook coming back mid stream sort of messed our offense up a little bit. Boling held his own this season and deserves a chance to keep his job. Who is to say that Larry Watford would come in and outplay Boling? You say his is dominant, but he hasn't taken a single snap in the NFL and say he is better? Makes no sense to me. Guard is not a need no matter how you try to slice it. If Watford comes in the league and an instant success than more power to him. But I wouldn't waste an early pick on a guard, when we have one that started the whole season, stayed healthy and played pretty darn good. Again removing a young guy with experience for a younger guy with no experience and not expecting a drop off is a pipe dream.
Warford played in the SEC and never gave up a sack all season. H'e great in both pass and run blocking and boling is not. It's a no brainer.
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  #29  
Old 01-13-2013, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Frederick and Zietler reunited and it feels so good. I really hope they put Frederick in strips. Robinson did well, but obviously if the coaches start Cook over you then they don't feel as good about him as we do.

Frederick has the size to stick it to these NT, and guy like Watt.

I wonder if Warton will be in play at all this year at guard? I would like them to get some depth at tackle and if Andre gets away you would have to look at Fluker in the first. Not alot of talent at Tackle this year.
If Andre bolts I'd target Fisher in the 1st or Justin Pugh in the 2nd
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  #30  
Old 01-13-2013, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Wow, never have I've been more confused about an o-line thread. In the Middle of the season when Robinson was dominating, you all loved him, ever since Cook came back, you all hated both of our centers. Put robinson in at C, release Cook and our O-line is fine.
Let me call Marvin and let him know.

Robinson provides good depth but if the coaching staff didn't start him after the obvious struggles of Cook I don't know if they will.

I think it's time to stop having UDFA's be our starting centers. A guy like Fredrick would give the line a real boost in size and talent in my opinion.
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  #31  
Old 01-13-2013, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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The argument here is that because Colin Kaepernick ran all over GB, and Mathews (their only lineman worth a salt, Raji is good at appearing in State Farm Commercials), SF dominated GB at the point of attack. Ergo we should covet a OLman early?

Proof? I dunno. Our line isn't bad. We could use some depth, and if someone falls I'd grab a talented guy. But I wouldn't prioritize it over the 5 or 6 other positions we need to fill.
The argument is that SF's O-line dominated both phases of the game. All day to pass, and blew the front 7 back consistently. Same as NE's O-line today. Cincy's line does neither, consistently. Both the other lines have been consistent at this all year long. That is what the Bengals need to shoot for. They don't have it currently. And FWIW, NE and SF are the favorites to be playing for the Super Bowl. Vastly different teams, but the one thing they have in common is a dominant O-line.

As for Warford (an obvious favorite of mine), he played on a horrible team with a QB who was erratic (Smith/Whitlow/Towles), and a team that was always behind in SEC play. Meaning teams had many, many chances to rush the passer against Kentucky. Warford gave up 0 sacks against the toughest competition in the nation, and 1 in the last two years. And consistently dominated the point of attack in the run game. No fewer than 8 of the DT's he played against will be playing in the NFL. He'll likely rise a bit after the Combine and Senior Bowl, but he'll likely be available in the 2nd round. He has 40 pounds on Boling, and is better equipped to handle the Hampton's Ngata's, and Taylor's in division. Warford fits the bill to a t of what the Bengals want in their interior lineman. Kind of like Warmack, but he'll likely go in the 1st.

Its just my opinion, and this is only a debate.
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  #32  
Old 01-13-2013, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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If Andre bolts I'd target Fisher in the 1st or Justin Pugh in the 2nd
You would have to think if Fisher gets to the Bears they will have a hard time not drafting him.

Although they did pass on Rieff last year.

Last edited by D's Nuts and Bolts; 01-13-2013 at 11:24 PM.
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  #33  
Old 01-13-2013, 11:07 PM
ilovethedraft ilovethedraft is offline
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

I don't think this team needs another Guard. We have Wharton coming back next year. I think Robinson played superbly when given the opportunity, but prior to Cook's injury, he was not "poor".

The best way to keep Dalton off his back is with a solid run game and WR's/TE's that can create quick separation. But, more than anything else, we need an identity on offense and a OC who is willing to give us one. For a west coast offense, where were the staples of the west coast?
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  #34  
Old 01-13-2013, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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I don't think this team needs another Guard. We have Wharton coming back next year. I think Robinson played superbly when given the opportunity, but prior to Cook's injury, he was not "poor".

The best way to keep Dalton off his back is with a solid run game and WR's/TE's that can create quick separation. But, more than anything else, we need an identity on offense and a OC who is willing to give us one. For a west coast offense, where were the staples of the west coast?

I guess you're happy with mediocre center and LG play.
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  #35  
Old 01-13-2013, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Originally Posted by t3r3e3 View Post
With all due respect, yer delusional. The Bengals have a decent line, probably in the Top 10. The 49er's have the best line, or at worst, the 2nd best, behind the Pats. Cincy's offensive woes are many. Fix the line however, and you give Dalton more time, so he's not running around like a chicken sans head, like he was in the Wild Card game, and most of the games against good pass-rush teams. Strengthening the line also allows better running lanes for Cincy's marginal RB talent. And also gives receivers an extra second or two to get open.

There's no need to go back to back. However, drafting at least one of the difference makers (ahem Warford...) in the 2nd easily strengthens the line. Cincy doesn't have to go OL/OL with the first two picks, but a difference maker is needed. Boling is not a starter, or if he is, he's average. Cook and Robinson are average at best. These guys are glaring holes when you factor in that Cincy plays 6 games each year against teams with big run-stuffing DT's. Boling and Robinson in particualr are small for interior lineman. It s hard to knock the Hamptons, Ngata's, and Taylor's of the world off the ball when you give up strength and LB's to them. All of that adds up to getting a bigger, better OL to take over. That doesn't preclude the Bengals from getting a S and LB/RB with the other two top picks; it just means it'd be prudent to use one of 'em to grab an upgrade.

Whit = Staley
Boling <<< Iupati
Cook << Goodwin
Zeitler > Boone
Smith > or = Davis

The sum of the parts is that SF has an appreciably better OL than Cincy; doesn't mean Cincy's OL is AZ bad, its just not a Top 3 OL.

With all the cap space that the Bengals have, I envision a 2nd running back being signed via FA. A guy in the Pierre Thomas/ Chris Ivory/Mike Goodson mold. Making RB less of a Day 1 or 2 need. Maybe Mike will surprise us and grab a bigger name, but I doubt it. The bulk of the money will likely be used to sign guys to extensions (Atkins), or new deals (MJ/Andre).
YOU are delusional and ignorant if you think SF has a better line.

Bfine set the record (correctly) straight in his post, but since you can't see the truth, I will spell it out for you:

Whitworth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Staley. Whitworth has given up less sacks and hits than Staley did this year, in the past 2 seasons. Staley is just a beast of a run blocker, which Whitworth has struggled with the past 2 years. But he's still not bad, and Whitworth is an infinitely better pass blocker, the best in the league.

Iupati>Boling. Iupati has more pressures than Boling, but is a much better run blocker. Much better.

Goodwin>Whomever. But not by much. Goodwin's a poor pass blocker for a C. But a good run blocker.

Zeitler=Boone. Both are among the top 3 at RG right now in their conferences, and like with the rest of our line, Zeitler is a better pass blocker.

'dre>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Davis. Davis has ****** until this year, while 'dre's been good or better in 3 of his 4 seasons. And 'dre is as good a run blocker as Davis.

SF's the best run blocking line in the league, we are leagues behind. We are a top 3 pass blocking line, SF is leagues behind.

Denver has the best line in the league, Minnesota is up there, we're up there, Bills are up there, and Browns.

All facts btw.
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  #36  
Old 01-13-2013, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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You would have to think if Fisher gets to the Bears they will have a hard time drafting him.

Although they did pass on Rieff last year.
I'd be just as happy with Pugh as I would Fisher anyways to be honest.
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  #37  
Old 01-13-2013, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

This is off topic and I posted it in another thread but,

The coaches have to figure out what is going on at the end of the season on offense.

Last six games for Andy.

2012 4 TD's 6 INTs. Comp 58% QBR 70.6 take out the BAL game 65 QBR!

2011 4 TD's 4 INT's. Comp 54% QBR 73

His Career Average is a 84 QBR, 3-1 TD to INT ratio, COMP 61%

Is this on the Oline? RB's? QB? A "#2"? Playcalling?
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  #38  
Old 01-13-2013, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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This is off topic and I posted it in another thread but,

The coaches have to figure out what is going on at the end of the season on offense.

Last six games for Andy.

2012 4 TD's 6 INTs. Comp 58% QBR 70.6 take out the BAL game 65 QBR!

2011 4 TD's 4 INT's. Comp 54% QBR 73

His Career Average is a 84 QBR, 3-1 TD to INT ratio, COMP 61%

Is this on the Oline? RB's? QB? A "#2"? Playcalling?
might be competition at the end of the year and it might be our O linemen are tired and need to be in better shape. Also the play calling doesn't help also. I wish we had a good young OC.
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  #39  
Old 01-14-2013, 07:08 AM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

I rather see the position coach be upgraded. There are 3 first round picks on this line. It should be better than what it is. Alexander needs to take his piano playing skills to Carnival Cruise line and play in the piano bar. He is horrible and has been horrible ever since he has been with the Bengals.
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  #40  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

This post is more toward what the Bengals have signed contactually with their players

G...
Clint Boling...signed 4 yr 2.5 mil thru 2014
Kevin Zeitler..signed 4 yr 7.5 mil thru 2015
Travelle Wharton...signed 3 yr 10 mil thru 2014

C....
Kyle Cook...signed 5 yr 15.38 mil thru 2015
Trevor Robinson..signed 3 yr 1.44 mil thru 2014

T.....
Andrew Whitworth...signed 5 yr 31 mil thru 2015
Andre Smith....unsigned
Anthony Collins...signed 2 yr 2.5 mil thru 2013
Dennis Roland....unsigned

I can see the Bengals focusing on RT, in particular with Andre's situation. And even getting a back up, to replace Roland and maybe Collins in a year. I'm just not too sure that they will look at the interior.

Last edited by goalpost; 01-14-2013 at 09:08 AM.
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  #41  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:39 PM
t3r3e3 t3r3e3 is offline
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
YOU are delusional and ignorant if you think SF has a better line.

Bfine set the record (correctly) straight in his post, but since you can't see the truth, I will spell it out for you:

Whitworth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Staley. Whitworth has given up less sacks and hits than Staley did this year, in the past 2 seasons. Staley is just a beast of a run blocker, which Whitworth has struggled with the past 2 years. But he's still not bad, and Whitworth is an infinitely better pass blocker, the best in the league.

Iupati>Boling. Iupati has more pressures than Boling, but is a much better run blocker. Much better.

Goodwin>Whomever. But not by much. Goodwin's a poor pass blocker for a C. But a good run blocker.

Zeitler=Boone. Both are among the top 3 at RG right now in their conferences, and like with the rest of our line, Zeitler is a better pass blocker.

'dre>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Davis. Davis has ****** until this year, while 'dre's been good or better in 3 of his 4 seasons. And 'dre is as good a run blocker as Davis.

SF's the best run blocking line in the league, we are leagues behind. We are a top 3 pass blocking line, SF is leagues behind.

Denver has the best line in the league, Minnesota is up there, we're up there, Bills are up there, and Browns.

All facts btw.

You're entitled to your opinion. I couldn't find anything on the net that ranked the Bengals current line over the 49er's current line, except for you. Preseason ranking had Cincy's line ahead in a few cases, but those were all with Wharton and Cook playing like last year and not this year. You're looking through rose-colored glasses. The 49er's line has been consistent all year, no matter the QB. They have the exact style of line that the Bengals schematically want, a bigger, straight-ahead bunch of maulers.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ne-rankings/2/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...k-10-update/3/

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
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  #42  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:47 PM
t3r3e3 t3r3e3 is offline
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goalpost View Post
This post is more toward what the Bengals have signed contactually with their players

G...
Clint Boling...signed 4 yr 2.5 mil thru 2014
Kevin Zeitler..signed 4 yr 7.5 mil thru 2015
Travelle Wharton...signed 3 yr 10 mil thru 2014

C....
Kyle Cook...signed 5 yr 15.38 mil thru 2015
Trevor Robinson..signed 3 yr 1.44 mil thru 2014

T.....
Andrew Whitworth...signed 5 yr 31 mil thru 2015
Andre Smith....unsigned
Anthony Collins...signed 2 yr 2.5 mil thru 2013
Dennis Roland....unsigned

I can see the Bengals focusing on RT, in particular with Andre's situation. And even getting a back up, to replace Roland and maybe Collins in a year. I'm just not too sure that they will look at the interior.
Cook and Wharton can be easily jettisoned. Its not guaranteed salary. Wharton's coming back off a major injury, and is getting long in the tooth. Both can be replaced, and both are getting 3+ million / year for little production. Wharton's case is tempered by injury, but Boling has played enough to likely make Wharton's contract expendable. Doesn't mean they can't upgrade Boling, just that Wharton isn't worth the 6 million he'll have netted by the end of next season. The imperative move is to re-sign Andre Smith over the offseason. The cap-space is there. Seems like a no-brainer, along with offering Geno Atkins a much better deal, and resigning Adam Jones and possibly MJ.
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  #43  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Originally Posted by BronxBengal View Post
I rather see the position coach be upgraded. There are 3 first round picks on this line. It should be better than what it is. Alexander needs to take his piano playing skills to Carnival Cruise line and play in the piano bar. He is horrible and has been horrible ever since he has been with the Bengals.
Who is the third first rounder?
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  #44  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:20 PM
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Who is the third first rounder?
Whit was a 2nd rounder not a 1st if thats what he was thinking.
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  #45  
Old 01-15-2013, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Originally Posted by t3r3e3 View Post
They have the exact style of line that the Bengals schematically want, a bigger, straight-ahead bunch of maulers.
Staley 315 < Whit 330
Iupati 331 > Boling 311
Goodwin 318 > Cook 315
Boone 300 < Zeitler 315
Davis 323 < Smith 335

SF 1587 < Cincy 1606
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
YOU are delusional and ignorant if you think SF has a better line.

Bfine set the record (correctly) straight in his post, but since you can't see the truth, I will spell it out for you:

Whitworth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Staley. Whitworth has given up less sacks and hits than Staley did this year, in the past 2 seasons. Staley is just a beast of a run blocker, which Whitworth has struggled with the past 2 years. But he's still not bad, and Whitworth is an infinitely better pass blocker, the best in the league.

Iupati>Boling. Iupati has more pressures than Boling, but is a much better run blocker. Much better.

Goodwin>Whomever. But not by much. Goodwin's a poor pass blocker for a C. But a good run blocker.

Zeitler=Boone. Both are among the top 3 at RG right now in their conferences, and like with the rest of our line, Zeitler is a better pass blocker.

'dre>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Davis. Davis has ****** until this year, while 'dre's been good or better in 3 of his 4 seasons. And 'dre is as good a run blocker as Davis.

SF's the best run blocking line in the league, we are leagues behind. We are a top 3 pass blocking line, SF is leagues behind.

Denver has the best line in the league, Minnesota is up there, we're up there, Bills are up there, and Browns.

All facts btw.
Top 3 pass blocking line? Give me a break.

26th in the league in sacks given up. Sorry, that's a fact. There's no way you can convince me that our line is that great at pass blocking when we rank that low.
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  #47  
Old 01-15-2013, 10:18 AM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Top 3 pass blocking line? Give me a break.

26th in the league in sacks given up. Sorry, that's a fact. There's no way you can convince me that our line is that great at pass blocking when we rank that low.
Actually, top 10 in sacks given up.

Take away 19 of those sacks, as they were on TEs, RBs, and Andy himself.

Try again.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:38 PM
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Wow, never have I've been more confused about an o-line thread. In the Middle of the season when Robinson was dominating, you all loved him, ever since Cook came back, you all hated both of our centers. Put robinson in at C, release Cook and our O-line is fine.
There would be no depth.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:42 PM
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who is the third first rounder?
2,4,fa,1,1
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: Need proof that upgrading the OL is needed?

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Actually, top 10 in sacks given up.

Take away 19 of those sacks, as they were on TEs, RBs, and Andy himself.

Try again.
Couldn't you do that with most teams though?

Down the strecth was the worst and like I've posted in other threads, they have to find out why this team (offense) and Andy the last two years have fallen apart the last 5-6 games.
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