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  #26  
Old 01-14-2013, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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Originally Posted by VCU Rams View Post
id throw morninweg in there too...
You'd be wrong, since he's been with the Eagles the lowest his offense has ever ranked was 15th, and that was this past season.
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2013, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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Absolutely. I'll bet he interviews great and that's probably the key. NFL GMs wanna find their guy, most of the dudes they interview are gonna have a lot of the same credentials, I think it has a lot to do with how impressive they are in the interviews.

Brat would have crashed and burned to 6-10 records at best with the same talent.
I agree 100%.
People dog on Gruden but there is a reason he is so well respected right now and getting so many interviews.

Let's make a list:
  • After long absence from NFL, takes a rookie SECOND round QB and only one offensive weapon, a rookie WR, to the playoffs with a lockout shortened offseason
  • Has continued to show an ability to mask the flaws in his talent by trying to be creative and spread the ball around
  • Doesn't run predictable play calling.
  • Has made a second round QB into a winning QB with a team that was 4-6
  • Successful at every level thus far
  • Has shown success with extremely limited talent, (non-Bengals fans realize this)
  • Helped the team get to back-to-back playoff births for the first time in 30 years.

Give Jay all the **** you want, but there is a damn good reason he is in such high demand and getting multiple return interviews and certain other coordinators do not.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:41 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

Starting NFL quarterbacks not drafted in the first round (regular starters, not injury replacements)
  • Andy Dalton
  • Tom Brady
  • Russell Wilson
  • Ryan Fitzpatrick
  • Matt Schaub
  • Tony Romo
  • Drew Brees
  • Colin Kaepernick
  • The AZ mess
  • Matt Cassel

So out of 32 teams, 10 have QB's starting taken out of the first round.
Only 6 have even won a playoff game.
Of those 6, only 2 have won multiple playoff games (could be 3 with Kaep).

Look at that list...most of them were/are career backup types until: 1) the rules made it easy on QBs who struggled with being pressured. 2) they got into the pass happy NFL era.
Even then, half that list has or will spend their entire career on the hot seat. Schaub, Romo, Fitzpatrick, Cassel....are always being discussed as on the hot seat. Two of them for sure are on the way out.

So yeah, when a guy gets a 2nd round QB to play like Dalton has he is going to get noticed and deservedly so.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:43 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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Originally Posted by berserkerone88 View Post
Starting NFL quarterbacks not drafted in the first round (regular starters, not injury replacements)
  • Andy Dalton
  • Tom Brady
  • Russell Wilson
  • Ryan Fitzpatrick
  • Matt Schaub
  • Tony Romo
  • Drew Brees
  • Colin Kaepernick
  • The AZ mess
  • Matt Cassel

So out of 32 teams, 10 have QB's starting taken out of the first round.
Only 6 have even won a playoff game.
Of those 6, only 2 have won multiple playoff games (could be 3 with Kaep).

Look at that list...most of them were/are career backup types until: 1) the rules made it easy on QBs who struggled with being pressured. 2) they got into the pass happy NFL era.
Even then, half that list has or will spend their entire career on the hot seat. Schaub, Romo, Fitzpatrick, Cassel....are always being discussed as on the hot seat. Two of them for sure are on the way out.

So yeah, when a guy gets a 2nd round QB to play like Dalton has he is going to get noticed and deservedly so.
AZ definitely has a mess but I'd like to point out in games where Kolb played significant snaps, they were 4-2 until that O-line had him injured.
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  #30  
Old 01-15-2013, 01:46 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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AZ definitely has a mess but I'd like to point out in games where Kolb played significant snaps, they were 4-2 until that O-line had him injured.
Yeah but if you watch Kolb play, he isn't good. He doesn't show the potential Dalton has.
Dalton has shown to be better at a lot more QB things than Kolb.
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  #31  
Old 01-15-2013, 01:48 AM
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Yeah but if you watch Kolb play, he isn't good. He doesn't show the potential Dalton has.
Dalton has shown to be better at a lot more QB things than Kolb.
Fair enough, but at least he was smart enough to throw to Fitzgerald(not aimed at Dalton, rather it was aimed at Arizona's other QBs)
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  #32  
Old 01-15-2013, 01:57 AM
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Fair enough, but at least he was smart enough to throw to Fitzgerald(not aimed at Dalton, rather it was aimed at Arizona's other QBs)
They tried...they are just color blind....

But in reality the rarity of a successful QB not in the first round, is just a testament to why teams are so interested in Gruden if they get him a guy like Geno Smith or Tyler Wilson.
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  #33  
Old 01-15-2013, 02:09 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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They tried...they are just color blind....

But in reality the rarity of a successful QB not in the first round, is just a testament to why teams are so interested in Gruden if they get him a guy like Geno Smith or Tyler Wilson.
Very true, people don't understand just how rare the Tom Brady's, Joe Montana's, Ken Anderson's, Boomer Esiason's, and Drew Brees', of the world are.
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  #34  
Old 01-15-2013, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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Very true, people don't understand just how rare the Tom Brady's, Joe Montana's, Ken Anderson's, Boomer Esiason's, and Drew Brees', of the world are.
Plays a huge role in why Gruden is so sought after.
Look at the guys who coached Brady, Montana, Anderson and Boomer....they all have something in common.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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plays a huge role in why gruden is so sought after.
Look at the guys who coached brady, montana, anderson and boomer....they all have something in common.
West Coast Offense?
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  #36  
Old 01-15-2013, 02:43 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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West Coast Offense?
Legendary coaches.
So people see a non-first QB succeed and they get all giddy in the pants for the OC
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:44 AM
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Legendary coaches.
So people see a non-first QB succeed and they get all giddy in the pants for the OC
Are Forest Gregg and Sam Wyche really considered legendary? I mean they took our team to one Superbowl each, which is more than any other coach we've had can say, but are they considered legendary by anyone who isn't a Bengals fan?
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  #38  
Old 01-15-2013, 02:52 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

Fans are upset with Gruden for pretty simple reasons.

1) By his own words he had the offense in a playoff game not target AJ Green.

2) The utter lack of traps, draws, screens or any type of play designed to burn aggressive pass rushes. Our offense is ridiculously vanilla and it came back to bite us.

Of course, our offense under Brat in his last few seasons was also crazy vanilla. So for all we know there may be higher orders forcing the lack of creativity.
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  #39  
Old 01-15-2013, 02:56 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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Are Forest Gregg and Sam Wyche really considered legendary? I mean they took our team to one Superbowl each, which is more than any other coach we've had can say, but are they considered legendary by anyone who isn't a Bengals fan?
Maybe not legendary, but both are sure as hell respected and stem from one of the greatest coaching trees ever.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:11 AM
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Maybe not legendary, but both are sure as hell respected and stem from one of the greatest coaching trees ever.
No I agree they're very well respected but I was hesitant in saying legendary.
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  #41  
Old 01-15-2013, 06:46 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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Fans are upset with Gruden for pretty simple reasons.

1) By his own words he had the offense in a playoff game not target AJ Green.

2) The utter lack of traps, draws, screens or any type of play designed to burn aggressive pass rushes. Our offense is ridiculously vanilla and it came back to bite us.

Of course, our offense under Brat in his last few seasons was also crazy vanilla. So for all we know there may be higher orders forcing the lack of creativity.
This sums it up nicely.
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  #42  
Old 01-15-2013, 06:57 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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2011 -20th ranked offense in the NFL

2012 - 22nd ranked offense in the NFL

Is he really that good?


Not such a bad drop considering the Bengals lost 3/5ths of their O-line and had a harder schedule.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:02 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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Absolutely. I'll bet he interviews great and that's probably the key. NFL GMs wanna find their guy, most of the dudes they interview are gonna have a lot of the same credentials, I think it has a lot to do with how impressive they are in the interviews.

Brat would have crashed and burned to 6-10 records at best with the same talent.

Plus his father and brother know a lot of people in the business.

He is from an NFL family and this opens doors.
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  #44  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:04 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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Originally Posted by Joelist View Post
Fans are upset with Gruden for pretty simple reasons.

1) By his own words he had the offense in a playoff game not target AJ Green.

2) The utter lack of traps, draws, screens or any type of play designed to burn aggressive pass rushes. Our offense is ridiculously vanilla and it came back to bite us.

Of course, our offense under Brat in his last few seasons was also crazy vanilla. So for all we know there may be higher orders forcing the lack of creativity.

Thought I saw Houston blow some screen attempts up ?
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:58 AM
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Thought I saw Houston blow some screen attempts up ?
They sniffed our screens out much like we did theirs.

Personally, I doubt anyone would be complaining had Gresham actually caught the ball when it was thrown his way. The game plan made sense, attack the soft linebacking core of the Texans with Gresham and when they shift coverage his way, strike where the new mismatch forms. Hell, it's almost the exact same thing the Texans did to us with Owen Daniels, attacking our suspect LBs. Gresham makes some plays, the game looks totally different. Though I can't defend how he excluded Green, or at least didn't shift the plan towards him when the original plan failed.

EDIT - Though, with that said. I wouldn't be terribly torn up if he took a job elsewhere. Not because I think he's done a bad job, but because he's not terribly impressive as an OC. Maybe it's because he's still learning after only two years of actual NFL playcalling, but I hope to see a bit more growth in his skills.

Last edited by AlaskanHero; 01-15-2013 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:25 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

Offensive coordinator most of the things you are talking about falls under Jays job title.His job does not stop after making the playbook and making a gameplan.Part of his job is to get these guys working together as a team which he fails at.

Last edited by BengalsBong; 01-15-2013 at 08:27 AM.
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  #47  
Old 01-15-2013, 10:11 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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Mike Martz is crap. He would get Dalton killed.

Sorry but no OC in the NFL is getting this team to the Super Bowl with this crapfest we ran out there this year.

Gruden called some fine plays. But players have to execute. And ours failed horribly at that the last 6 weeks or so.
yeah he's crap alright. He has something no Bengal or Bengal fan has EVER had .
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

I think other teams are looking at the Bengals first 8 games not the last 8..So something stands out to them.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: Gruden not as bad as we all think...

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They sniffed our screens out much like we did theirs.

Personally, I doubt anyone would be complaining had Gresham actually caught the ball when it was thrown his way. The game plan made sense, attack the soft linebacking core of the Texans with Gresham and when they shift coverage his way, strike where the new mismatch forms. Hell, it's almost the exact same thing the Texans did to us with Owen Daniels, attacking our suspect LBs. Gresham makes some plays, the game looks totally different. Though I can't defend how he excluded Green, or at least didn't shift the plan towards him when the original plan failed.

EDIT - Though, with that said. I wouldn't be terribly torn up if he took a job elsewhere. Not because I think he's done a bad job, but because he's not terribly impressive as an OC. Maybe it's because he's still learning after only two years of actual NFL playcalling, but I hope to see a bit more growth in his skills.
I believe this is right. I would add that the Center position hurt us. I thought Cook came back too soon. Gruden thought Dalton came out with the ball too fast this season.When you look at all the playoff games Andy had the least time to throw.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:34 AM
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....I know this is an unpopular opinion right now but if you watch the coach film it wasn't as if the plays were poorly designed...
I think there were some very poorly designed plays. One of the big myths out there is that our lack of experienced #2 WR meant teams just doubled AJ all the time. This is false ... AJ was not doubled nearly as often as people think. But often, we'd have plays where other players (TE, slot WR) ran their routes the same side of the field as AJ very close to his route and so defenders were drawn into the same area of the field, often underneath AJ's route so that the passing lane between Andy and AJ was cluttered with defenders. NFL Rewind has the wide-angle aerial coaches' camera for watching games, and when you look at that view of the game it's amazing how often AJ is in single coverage and open, but we just can't get him the ball because a DB/LB covering the TE or slot WR is drawn underneath AJ's route and standing in the path of any throw. This is just sloppy play design ... if those other receivers are running routes to the inside, drawing the D away from AJ on the sideline, then AJ has a lot of one-on-one opportunities on the sideline and Andy has a clear throwing lane to get him the ball.

NFL defenses double-team guys way less than people seem to think ... most of the time defenses simply match up on formation. In fact, in the Pitt game there's even one play where we moved AJ into the slot in a 5-WR formation and he is single-covered by LB Lawrence Timmons on the play! I wish we'd have worked that formation a little more after seeing that, but we never went back to that formation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelist View Post
Fans are upset with Gruden for pretty simple reasons.

1) By his own words he had the offense in a playoff game not target AJ Green.

2) The utter lack of traps, draws, screens or any type of play designed to burn aggressive pass rushes. Our offense is ridiculously vanilla and it came back to bite us.

Of course, our offense under Brat in his last few seasons was also crazy vanilla. So for all we know there may be higher orders forcing the lack of creativity.
Both good points. The second one especially ... the Eagles game was just crying out for some of these adjustments. The other way you calm down a pass rush is tell the QB to tuck it and run on a few plays, that gets the pass rushers second guessing a little. We finally did some of this stuff in the 4th quarter, but yeesh it took us a long time to adjust to what was going on. That's why I don't side with those saying that it's on the players, they just have to execute better. No coach in the league gets perfect execution from his players in every game. That's why the coach is there to add value with his play-calling and adjustments to counter what the defense is doing well or what his own offense is doing poorly. If a guy can't do that effectively he needs to be out.

There was a thread yesterday about what we can learn from the teams in the championship games this year, and I wrote that they were all teams that were decisive and not shy to make bold moves (Baltimore firing their OC during the season, 49ers going with Kaepernick). If the Bengals were run like those team Gruden would have already been fired this offseason. None of those teams would have found it acceptable that we were 22nd in offense and that there was clear regression in our offensive as the season went on ... the exact opposite of what should happen as young players gain experience and settle in to their roles.
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