Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

[TommyC]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

Yeah, Kaepernick got an entire year and change to sit on the bench and learn/adjust. Didn't everyone in the world say he wasn't ready to play in 2011?

The Bengals needed someone to play as soon as they drafted them.. unless you wanted a 2011 filled with 16 games of Bruce's Beard, Dalton was still the right choice to make. Not to mention the little fact that Kaepernick got to inherit a team that went 13-3 the year before he started.. Dalton got to inherit a team that went 4-12 the year before he started. That's a huge difference.

This^

[Joelist]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Which is why they were the hottest team in the NFC?

Winning 7 in a row.

Teams took the hint.

Dopey like always.

RGIII is in a hospital having had major knee surgery. And if when he comes back they start the option stuff again, that is where he'll end up again.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Joelist

Dopey like always.

RGIII is in a hospital having had major knee surgery. And if when he comes back they start the option stuff again, that is where he'll end up again.

You are the Dope!

You write a stupid statement of "later on other teams took the hint". That is not dopey, that is stupid. The Redskins won 7 in a row a few games after we played them and won their division.

I can't stand it when someone writes a stupid ignorant statement like you did and can't man up to it when you are wrong.

BTW, RGIII is not in the hospital because he got hit by a Seahawk running the option.

Your comments of wanting Atlanta to "hammer him mercilessy"[Colin Kaepernick], speaks volume of how much a barbaric you are.

[Joelist]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

You are the Dope!

You write a stupid statement of "later on other teams took the hint". That is not dopey, that is stupid. The Redskins won 7 in a row a few games after we played them and won their division.

I can't stand it when someone writes a stupid ignorant statement like you did and can't man up to it when you are wrong.

BTW, RGIII is not in the hospital because he got hit by a Seahawk running the option.

Your comments of wanting Atlanta to "hammer him mercilessy"[Colin Kaepernick], speaks volume of how much a barbaric you are.

Except that I'm not wrong and you know it. We did hit RGIII a lot, Shanahan even griped about it, other teams did the same later on and the end result is RGIII got injured - twice no less (originally by the Rats then the Seahawks aggravated it). And whether or not you think it is "barbaric" is irrelevant - hitting the QB over and over is the time tested defensive approach to gimmick offenses that have the QB acting as a RB. So of course I expect the Falcons to do it to CK because that is what San Francisco is doing right now.

Also, what I said was hammer him mercilessly if he runs out of the pocket - make him beat them by passing from the pocket. Like it or not this is the proper NFL defensive approach to "mobile" QBs.

What you missed from other threads is I LIKE RGIII. He's not a head case like some other diva players and he seems to have good QB tools. But if they keep that read option he is not long for the league. Nor will CK be if they keep running read option for the exact reasons I stated.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Joelist

Except that I'm not wrong and you know it. We did hit RGIII a lot, Shanahan even griped about it, other teams did the same later on and the end result is RGIII got injured - twice no less (originally by the Rats then the Seahawks aggravated it). And whether or not you think it is "barbaric" is irrelevant - hitting the QB over and over is the time tested defensive approach to gimmick offenses that have the QB acting as a RB. So of course I expect the Falcons to do it to CK because that is what San Francisco is doing right now.

Also, what I said was hammer him mercilessly if he runs out of the pocket - make him beat them by passing from the pocket. Like it or not this is the proper NFL defensive approach to "mobile" QBs.

What you missed from other threads is I LIKE RGIII. He's not a head case like some other diva players and he seems to have good QB tools. But if they keep that read option he is not long for the league. Nor will CK be if they keep running read option for the exact reasons I stated.

RGIII will learn to slide. Adapt or die. So will Kaepernick. Even if those guys were not freakishly good athletes they are both very good throwing the ball. Both can anticipate and put the ball in tight windows 15+ yards down the field. In the NFL you have to be able to throw the ball down the field. Both demonstrate elite natural ability throwing the ball. Neither are one trick ponies.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Fan_in_Kettering

It tells me San Francisco has a great offensive line and Cincinnati's line leaks like an overfilled diaper.

Statistically at least Cinci had one of the best O-lines in the NFL. I think it's funny how this board will praise individuals on the line (i.e. Smith is a beast! Whit is the best, Zeitler, Boling etc). then say the line is terrible.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Statistically at least Cinci had one of the best O-lines in the NFL. I think it's funny how this board will praise individuals on the line (i.e. Smith is a beast! Whit is the best, Zeitler, Boling etc). then say the line is terrible.

I don't remember anyone saying the line was bad when Robinson was playing...

Also, I don't recall anyone calling Cook a beast.

Seems pretty straightforward to me: Cook shouldn't be a starter here.

The center is the most important person on your line next to LT or RT(depending on the handedness of your QB ), so for the team to constantly ignore that position by putting late round picks and/or undrafted FAs there for the better part of 10 years speaks volumes.

We need to get true talent at the position and LEAVE HIM THERE to gain cohesiveness with others on the line. Until that happens our line will always be prone to stinking it up.

[pdub2005]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Statistically at least Cinci had one of the best O-lines in the NFL. I think it's funny how this board will praise individuals on the line (i.e. Smith is a beast! Whit is the best, Zeitler, Boling etc). then say the line is terrible.

Cincinnati allowed the 7th most sacks in the NFL in 2012

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...qualified=true

On the other hand, our offensive line allowed the 26 most QB hits. So the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...qualified=true

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

I don't remember anyone saying the line was bad when Robinson was playing...

Also, I don't recall anyone calling Cook a beast.

Seems pretty straightforward to me: Cook shouldn't be a starter here.

The center is the most important person on your line next to LT or RT(depending on the handedness of your QB ), so for the team to constantly ignore that position by putting late round picks and/or undrafted FAs there for the better part of 10 years speaks volumes.

We need to get true talent at the position and LEAVE HIM THERE to gain cohesiveness with others on the line. Until that happens our line will always be prone to stinking it up.

I am not a Cook fan. But the truth is that the offense did not sputter bc of Cook. The offense sputtered bc defenses figured out how to play the Benglas (load the box, sit on underneath routes and double AJ) and we have an OC and QB that cannot overcome that. Cook did not help, but a great offense will overcome having one weak link on the line. In fairness Boling IMO was really bad down the stretch...maybe worse than Cook.

There is a thread under the premise that the Patriots were able to move the ball and score on the Texans bc of the O-line. The fact of the matter is that Brady got hit by the Texans D more than Dalton did. He faced pressure. The differense is that with the Patriots you have to defend the whole field. Brady keeps defenses honest. The Bengals are so predictable and somewhat limited that they are easy to defend. The book is out on them.

[bengal_prideforlife]

Originally Posted by bfine32

Why do folks keep making these type threads?

Andy v. Cam
Andy v. Mallet
Andy v. Kaperdick

If Minnesota would have won their playoff game I guarentee there would been an:

Andy v. Ponder thread

If Tennessee wins a few games next yers there wil be an:

Andy v. Locker thread.

Maybe we should just all stick our fingers in our butts this offseason and wait for you to make threads so your high and mighty arse won't be disappointed in a thread that doesn't please you intellectually.


It isn't a bad thread and it is worth coversation, Kaepernick IS better, if you are to stupid to realize that maybe you have the problem. I wish we had picked him, Dalton is benefiting from a fantastic defense and that is about it.

I really wish Dalton was Drew Brees but he isn't, please prove me wrong Andy.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by bengal_prideforlife

Maybe we should just all stick our fingers in our butts this offseason and wait for you to make threads so your high and mighty arse won't be disappointed in a thread that doesn't please you intellectually.


It isn't a bad thread and it is worth coversation, Kaepernick IS better, if you are to stupid to realize that maybe you have the problem. I wish we had picked him, Dalton is benefiting from a fantastic defense and that is about it.

I really wish Dalton was Drew Brees but he isn't, please prove me wrong Andy.

Because San Fran definitely has a terrible defense.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard

It was sarcasm.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Bryan

Because San Fran definitely has a terrible defense.

Of course not, but Kaepernick set a record for most yards rushed by a QB in his first ever post-season appearance. He also scored 24 total points.

Dalton on the other hand hasn't even scored 1 point in 2 playoff appearances against the same team. He has thrown 4ints though. Right now Dalton is utterly horrible when it counts, and I hope to all that is holy that he improves very quickly.

[Hebden Bengal]

Originally Posted by Bull Durham

Who said dalton couldn't do that? Did you see the massive holes the SF line was blowing open for kaepernick? CARSON PALMER could have run for 150 yards in that game

Fixed it for ya.

[Shere Khan]

Colin Kaepernick QB Nevada

TALENT BOARD

Round 4

STRENGTHS
Colin has outstanding athletic talent. He has excellent arm strength and shows good accuracy. Colin can use his athletic talent to extend a play when looking for an open receiver or run for a first down. He moves the ball on third down, which is very important. He is fearless, but at the same time, makes good decisions when he is under pressure. Colin has been in the college pistol offense which relies on a QB with the athletic talent that Colin possesses. It is an offense that allows Colin to move around in the passing game and not have to stay in a pocket under pressure to complete passes. Colin reminds me a lot of Kordell Stewart (former QB Pittsburgh Steelers).

CONCERNS
Colin has a long way to go to be a NFL QB. He needs to learn how to read defenses, stay in the pocket and only use his athletic running abilities in time of need. He must develop a better touch on his short passes and more accuracy when throwing on the run. In most cases, once Colin pulls the ball down and starts to run, he does not look to pass because he is not confident of his accuracy once he's on the move. He is a smart kid, but needs to develop this part of his game quickly if he wants to succeed at the next level. Right now, Colin throws the ball through his receivers and not to his receivers. Colin has a ton of talent for the college level, but his ability to use that talent correctly for the pro level is the big concern. I consider Colin a specialty QB just like Kordell Stewart was. Colin, for the first time in his life, will no longer be the best and most athletic player on the field once he is drafted; that alone will be a big shock to him. He also has to bulk up and get stronger. His body type right now will not take the pounding at the next level if he doesn't.

BOTTOM LINE
If you are a playoff team with time to develop a young QB, you would be nuts to pass on Colin in this draft. Colin could be drafted in any round in this draft or, for that matter, not at all. It will depend on how he performs in the Senior Bowl and in his workouts. I suspect he will be drafted in the first three rounds because of his size, athlete talent and arm strength alone, but you never know what you're going to get with a QB that comes from an offense that is strange to the NFL. For the time being, Colin has the athletic ability to win some games as a backup QB until he develops. If he is on the field too early and for too many games in a row, he will be easy to defend. I could list a ton of things that Colin still needs to learn, but so do most young QB's coming out in the draft. The question is this ...is Colin ready mentally to become a NFL QB? Is he ready to change the way he thinks and plays? There is a big difference in the way Tim Tebow played in college and the way Colin Kaepernick plays although they have similar styles. Tim Tebow understands that he has to change some things and is willing. I'm not convinced deep down inside that Colin gets this yet. Until he does, it will take him longer to impact. The problem for me is that Colin could become another "Slash", which would be unfortunate for Colin based on his talent. Kordell never developed as a NFL QB because his overall athletic talents stunted his mental QB growth. Kordell was a specialty QB that was used (at first) in special situations. Then the Steelers decided to use him as their starting QB because Kordell had such success in specialty situations. That's when the problems occurred. Kordell could not adjust to starting and having defenses game planning for him and taking away his strengths. I guess if you're ready to use the pistol offense in situations like teams use the wildcat offense now, then drafting Colin might make sense. But if you're a team that is not interested in using that offense, then I would think there are other developmental QB's in this draft you might be more interested in.

[degolfisfun]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Statistically at least Cinci had one of the best O-lines in the NFL. I think it's funny how this board will praise individuals on the line (i.e. Smith is a beast! Whit is the best, Zeitler, Boling etc). then say the line is terrible.

We have an OL that is pretty good on the whole. Not as good as SF but quite possibly the best in the AFC North.

We have a QB that is not a quick decision-maker and who does not throw the ball willy-nilly. If he continues such, his sack total will remain right up there with Aaron Rodgers who has the same traits.

Our QB does not run or throw as well as CK or AR. OL quality does not enter into this part of the conversation.

The CK conversation should end. He is who every team thought he was in 2011. A very raw QB, that with time and coaching, COULD POSSIBLY develop into a really good QB - great arm, strong, good speed,not pro-ready,etc.. But the fact of the matter in 2011, the Bengals and about 25 other teams were NOT in a position to take a risk on a development project. We needed a Day 1 starter or 3-13 season here we come. Kapernick has surpassed Dalton (and Ponder and Locker and Gabbard and Mallett) and maybe Newton and that will forever be the case. The 49-ers took a risk (a mere 2nd round draft choice) and it worked out. The Bengals were not in a position to take such risk. Sorry.

[Shere Khan]

Originally Posted by degolfisfun

We have an OL that is pretty good on the whole. Not as good as SF but quite possibly the best in the AFC North.

We have a QB that is not a quick decision-maker and who does not throw the ball willy-nilly. If he continues such, his sack total will remain right up there with Aaron Rodgers who has the same traits.

Our QB does not run or throw as well as CK or AR. OL quality does not enter into this part of the conversation.

The CK conversation should end. He is who every team thought he was in 2011. A very raw QB, that with time and coaching, COULD POSSIBLY develop into a really good QB - great arm, strong, good speed,not pro-ready,etc.. But the fact of the matter in 2011, the Bengals and about 25 other teams were NOT in a position to take a risk on a development project. We needed a Day 1 starter or 3-13 season here we come. Kapernick has surpassed Dalton (and Ponder and Locker and Gabbard and Mallett) and maybe Newton and that will forever be the case. The 49-ers took a risk (a mere 2nd round draft choice) and it worked out. The Bengals were not in a position to take such risk. Sorry.

I agree with you to a point, but what the heck does throw the ball willy-nilly mean?

[THEBURG]

Originally Posted by Shere Khan

I agree with you to a point, but what the heck does throw the ball willy-nilly mean?

I think that means, he has no clue where it's going.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Shere Khan

Colin Kaepernick QB Nevada

TALENT BOARD

Round 4

STRENGTHS
Colin has outstanding athletic talent. He has excellent arm strength and shows good accuracy. Colin can use his athletic talent to extend a play when looking for an open receiver or run for a first down. He moves the ball on third down, which is very important. He is fearless, but at the same time, makes good decisions when he is under pressure. Colin has been in the college pistol offense which relies on a QB with the athletic talent that Colin possesses. It is an offense that allows Colin to move around in the passing game and not have to stay in a pocket under pressure to complete passes. Colin reminds me a lot of Kordell Stewart (former QB Pittsburgh Steelers).

CONCERNS
Colin has a long way to go to be a NFL QB. He needs to learn how to read defenses, stay in the pocket and only use his athletic running abilities in time of need. He must develop a better touch on his short passes and more accuracy when throwing on the run. In most cases, once Colin pulls the ball down and starts to run, he does not look to pass because he is not confident of his accuracy once he's on the move. He is a smart kid, but needs to develop this part of his game quickly if he wants to succeed at the next level. Right now, Colin throws the ball through his receivers and not to his receivers. Colin has a ton of talent for the college level, but his ability to use that talent correctly for the pro level is the big concern. I consider Colin a specialty QB just like Kordell Stewart was. Colin, for the first time in his life, will no longer be the best and most athletic player on the field once he is drafted; that alone will be a big shock to him. He also has to bulk up and get stronger. His body type right now will not take the pounding at the next level if he doesn't.

BOTTOM LINE
If you are a playoff team with time to develop a young QB, you would be nuts to pass on Colin in this draft. Colin could be drafted in any round in this draft or, for that matter, not at all. It will depend on how he performs in the Senior Bowl and in his workouts. I suspect he will be drafted in the first three rounds because of his size, athlete talent and arm strength alone, but you never know what you're going to get with a QB that comes from an offense that is strange to the NFL. For the time being, Colin has the athletic ability to win some games as a backup QB until he develops. If he is on the field too early and for too many games in a row, he will be easy to defend. I could list a ton of things that Colin still needs to learn, but so do most young QB's coming out in the draft. The question is this ...is Colin ready mentally to become a NFL QB? Is he ready to change the way he thinks and plays? There is a big difference in the way Tim Tebow played in college and the way Colin Kaepernick plays although they have similar styles. Tim Tebow understands that he has to change some things and is willing. I'm not convinced deep down inside that Colin gets this yet. Until he does, it will take him longer to impact. The problem for me is that Colin could become another "Slash", which would be unfortunate for Colin based on his talent. Kordell never developed as a NFL QB because his overall athletic talents stunted his mental QB growth. Kordell was a specialty QB that was used (at first) in special situations. Then the Steelers decided to use him as their starting QB because Kordell had such success in specialty situations. That's when the problems occurred. Kordell could not adjust to starting and having defenses game planning for him and taking away his strengths. I guess if you're ready to use the pistol offense in situations like teams use the wildcat offense now, then drafting Colin might make sense. But if you're a team that is not interested in using that offense, then I would think there are other developmental QB's in this draft you might be more interested in.

If I recall, Dalton was projected to go lower too...but there was a run on QB's that year.

[The Bengal Thing]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

If I recall, Dalton was projected to go lower too...but there was a run on QB's that year.

Most of what I remember was late 1st round, early 2nd grade on Dalton

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[THE PISTONS]

Draft Dish: TCU's Dalton, Virginia Tech's Taylor worth late-round picks

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/stor...te-round-picks

[caddie]

My buddy a niners fan and I were talking about this the other day he was like Kaepernick is on a hot streak but he could come out next year and fall off. Andy Dalton has proven himself in back to back years and a few missed targets does no detract from what is a pretty good rookie and sophomore season.

[The Bengal Thing]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Draft Dish: TCU's Dalton, Virginia Tech's Taylor worth late-round picks

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/stor...te-round-picks

I saw that one....but the other 8 I read said late 1st early 2nd

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Draft Dish: TCU's Dalton, Virginia Tech's Taylor worth late-round picks

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/stor...te-round-picks

You're using an AOL sporting news piece to (I'm going to assume) blast Dalton? HA!!

How about this one that has him as the 6th best QB in the class, or this article where Mike Mayock compares Dalton to Matt Ryan - the same Matt Ryan who took awhile to get his post season treads but is now in the NFC Championship, or this one, where Dalton is rated as the 5th best QB? All more respectable than AOL, and all easily found. I bet you had to dig to find that AOL link, didn't you?

[Cardiackat]

Kaepernick for now