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  #176  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:33 AM
shaolinghost shaolinghost is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
The Pats had a Top 10 defense each year Brady won the Super Bowl
Saints had a great defense too.
Steelers as well.
The Giants had great pass rush both times they won
Green Bay had a turnover generator for a defense the year they won.

Defense is what gets you there, but offense is what wins the game 9/10 times. We've currently got 50% of a SB team. Hopefully we get the other 50% this offseason.
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  #177  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by shaolinghost View Post
Saints had a great defense too.
Steelers as well.
The Giants had great pass rush both times they won
Green Bay had a turnover generator for a defense the year they won.

Defense is what gets you there, but offense is what wins the game 9/10 times. We've currently got 50% of a SB team. Hopefully we get the other 50% this offseason.
He said Brady wins without defense, all I said was he had top 10 defenses each time he won a Superbowl.
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  #178  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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  #179  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:31 AM
shaolinghost shaolinghost is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
He said Brady wins without defense, all I said was he had top 10 defenses each time he won a Superbowl.
I know. I was agreeing with you and adding to your point that strong defenses helped many "elite" QBs get their rings.
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  #180  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:20 AM
bLEEdOrangeandBlack bLEEdOrangeandBlack is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by jack1953 View Post
That's the whole point with Dalton all you couch coaches!!!! Defense wins ballgames!!!! The ONLY QB in the league that can win without a stellar defense is the best QB EVER to date...............Mr. Brady!

THE POINT TRYING TO BE DRIVEN HOME IS YOU DON'T NEED A STELLAR QB TO WIN.

Look at Peyton this weekend. He lost because his defense failed miserably!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most of the superbowls have been won by elite qbs...this is an offensive league now
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  #181  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:23 AM
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by bLEEdOrangeandBlack View Post
Most of the superbowls have been won by elite qbs...this is an offensive league now
Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
The Pats had a Top 10 defense each year Brady won the Super Bowl
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaolinghost View Post
Saints had a great defense too.
Steelers as well.
The Giants had great pass rush both times they won
Green Bay had a turnover generator for a defense the year they won.

Defense is what gets you there, but offense is what wins the game 9/10 times. We've currently got 50% of a SB team. Hopefully we get the other 50% this offseason.
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  #182  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:39 AM
bLEEdOrangeandBlack bLEEdOrangeandBlack is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Really?
Yes.Really. The last 20 years have been won by elite qbs...only two have not been future hall of famers...google it
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  #183  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:23 AM
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Shake n Blake Shake n Blake is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by bLEEdOrangeandBlack View Post
Yes.Really. The last 20 years have been won by elite qbs...only two have not been future hall of famers...google it
2012: Eli Manning
2011: Aaron Rodgers
2010: Drew Brees
2009: Ben Roethlisberger
2008: Eli Manning
2007: Peyton Manning
2006: Ben Roesthlisberger
2005: Tom Brady
2004: Tom Brady
2003: Brad Johnson
2002: Tom Brady
2001: Trent Dilfer
2000: Kurt Warner
1999: John Elway
1998: John Elway
1997: Brett Favre
1996: Troy Aikman
1995: Steve Young
1994: Troy Aikman
1993: Troy Aikman

Can't really argue with you much here, although I never thought Aikman, Elway, Eli or Big Ben were top 5 at their positions during their careers (thus not elite IMO). Eli Manning is definitely not elite. Either way, that's a damn good list of QBs, other than Eli, Brad Johnson and Dilfer.

There is hope though. Look at the list of losing superbowl QBs:

Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Kurt Warner
Tom Brady
Rex Grossman
Matt Hasselbeck
Donovan McNabb
Jake Delhomme
Rich Gannon
Kurt Warner
Kerry Collins
Steve McNair
Chris Chandler
Brett Favre
Drew Bledsoe
Neil O'Donnell
Stan Humpries
Jim Kelly
Jim Kelly

These are some good QBs too, but the ones I highlighted weren't elite by any stretch.
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  #184  
Old 01-16-2013, 05:19 AM
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
2012: Eli Manning
2011: Aaron Rodgers
2010: Drew Brees
2009: Ben Roethlisberger
2008: Eli Manning
2007: Peyton Manning
2006: Ben Roesthlisberger
2005: Tom Brady
2004: Tom Brady
2003: Brad Johnson
2002: Tom Brady
2001: Trent Dilfer
2000: Kurt Warner
1999: John Elway
1998: John Elway
1997: Brett Favre
1996: Troy Aikman
1995: Steve Young
1994: Troy Aikman
1993: Troy Aikman

Can't really argue with you much here, although I never thought Aikman, Elway, Eli or Big Ben were top 5 at their positions during their careers (thus not elite IMO). Eli Manning is definitely not elite. Either way, that's a damn good list of QBs, other than Eli, Brad Johnson and Dilfer.

There is hope though. Look at the list of losing superbowl QBs:

Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Kurt Warner
Tom Brady
Rex Grossman
Matt Hasselbeck
Donovan McNabb
Jake Delhomme
Rich Gannon
Kurt Warner
Kerry Collins
Steve McNair
Chris Chandler
Brett Favre
Drew Bledsoe
Neil O'Donnell
Stan Humpries
Jim Kelly
Jim Kelly

These are some good QBs too, but the ones I highlighted weren't elite by any stretch.
I have to disagree about McNabb. I watched him play every Sunday for 11 years. He was arguably the most underrated QB in the NFL IMO. I mean was he Brady? No, but he was the first QB in NFL history to throw 30+ TDs and less than 10 INTs. I think he was at worst borderline elite.
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  #185  
Old 01-16-2013, 05:26 AM
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
I have to disagree about McNabb. I watched him play every Sunday for 11 years. He was arguably the most underrated QB in the NFL IMO. I mean was he Brady? No, but he was the first QB in NFL history to throw 30+ TDs and less than 10 INTs. I think he was at worst borderline elite.
I would rate McNabb (in his prime) as a notch below Big Ben, and I don't consider Ben elite. Close? Maybe. But not elite. I agree that McNabb was very underrated though, and of the QBs I highlighted, he was probably the best.
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  #186  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:30 AM
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D.Boon D.Boon is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
2012: Eli Manning
2011: Aaron Rodgers
2010: Drew Brees
2009: Ben Roethlisberger
2008: Eli Manning
2007: Peyton Manning
2006: Ben Roesthlisberger
2005: Tom Brady
2004: Tom Brady
2003: Brad Johnson
2002: Tom Brady
2001: Trent Dilfer
2000: Kurt Warner
1999: John Elway
1998: John Elway
1997: Brett Favre
1996: Troy Aikman
1995: Steve Young
1994: Troy Aikman
1993: Troy Aikman

Can't really argue with you much here, although I never thought Aikman, Elway, Eli or Big Ben were top 5 at their positions during their careers (thus not elite IMO). Eli Manning is definitely not elite. Either way, that's a damn good list of QBs, other than Eli, Brad Johnson and Dilfer.

There is hope though. Look at the list of losing superbowl QBs:

Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Kurt Warner
Tom Brady
Rex Grossman
Matt Hasselbeck
Donovan McNabb
Jake Delhomme
Rich Gannon
Kurt Warner
Kerry Collins
Steve McNair
Chris Chandler
Brett Favre
Drew Bledsoe
Neil O'Donnell
Stan Humpries
Jim Kelly
Jim Kelly

These are some good QBs too, but the ones I highlighted weren't elite by any stretch.
Even though it wasn't that long ago I think the day of a game manager like Trent Dilfer winning the SB are gone. The NFL is different now than it was even 11 years ago. It's a passing league. Good defense still exists (it's alive and well in Cinci) but it is a pass driven league. I hear people saying 'Dalton is a good game manager....you can't expect him to do this or that..' If you have a QB that is limited in any way in terms of being able to make all the throws you are not winning a SB. Eli may not be 'elite' but he can consistently hit intermeidiate and deep throws with accuracy. Dalton has not proven that he can make NFL throws (i.e. tight windows over 15 yards downfield) with any consistency. He'll throw a nice ball every once in a while but the majority of time his accuracy is not where it needs to be.
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  #187  
Old 01-16-2013, 09:06 AM
shaolinghost shaolinghost is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

I would say a few of those QBs are just a little more than a product of the system.

John Elway
Troy Aikman
Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger

They all had very complete teams when they won the SB. For example:

Elway had Terrell Davis(In the 7 playoff games he averaged 150yards and 2tds per game) and Shannon Sharpe on offense. Not to mention a top 10 defense both years.

Troy Aikman pretty much had All-Pros all around him, and one of the best offensive lines in NFL history.

Matt Cassel went 11-5 with the team Brady took to the SB a season earlier, so you could say that team was very complete.

Ben has always had the benefit of a great defense and/or great ground game.

Dalton can win this franchise a SB, but he most definitely can't do it by himself, not now anyway. The team needs to be complete(good line, stifling D, at least 2 competent/reliable receivers, a RB that defenses fear, and a coach who knows how to win in big games.), so until that happens we'll do nothing more than maybe win a couple division titles and a few playoff games.

Last edited by shaolinghost; 01-16-2013 at 09:09 AM.
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  #188  
Old 01-16-2013, 09:35 AM
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D.Boon D.Boon is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaolinghost View Post
I would say a few of those QBs are just a little more than a product of the system.

John Elway
Troy Aikman
Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger

They all had very complete teams when they won the SB. For example:

Elway had Terrell Davis(In the 7 playoff games he averaged 150yards and 2tds per game) and Shannon Sharpe on offense. Not to mention a top 10 defense both years.

Troy Aikman pretty much had All-Pros all around him, and one of the best offensive lines in NFL history.

Matt Cassel went 11-5 with the team Brady took to the SB a season earlier, so you could say that team was very complete.

Ben has always had the benefit of a great defense and/or great ground game.

Dalton can win this franchise a SB, but he most definitely can't do it by himself, not now anyway. The team needs to be complete(good line, stifling D, at least 2 competent/reliable receivers, a RB that defenses fear, and a coach who knows how to win in big games.), so until that happens we'll do nothing more than maybe win a couple division titles and a few playoff games.
You just listed who I consider to be the best QB of all time (Elway) as a system QB. Elway is the most gifted athlete to ever play the QB. If you want to look at a prototypcial 'franchsie QB' he is the epitome.

All those QB's are phenomenal. All are extremely gifted. Yes, Brady has the benefit of playing for some very intelligent coaches that know how to effectively scheme. But no system makes the reads for him. No system throws the ball down the field and puts it into the tightest of windows in a way that looks effortless. Seriously, watch some of the throws that Brady makes every game and ask yourself with all objectivity 'Could Dalton have made that throw'. I think we can all agree that Andy has made some beautiful throws...but they are few and far between. Most the time when he needs to hit a very small window he misses. Floats it out of bounds. Behind a guy. Throws too early/too late. So while I have seen Dalton make some very nice throws the majority of the time when he has his opportunties he cannot connect. This says nothing of his ability to correctly read the defense.
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  #189  
Old 01-16-2013, 11:11 AM
shaolinghost shaolinghost is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
You just listed who I consider to be the best QB of all time (Elway) as a system QB. Elway is the most gifted athlete to ever play the QB. If you want to look at a prototypcial 'franchsie QB' he is the epitome.

All those QB's are phenomenal. All are extremely gifted. Yes, Brady has the benefit of playing for some very intelligent coaches that know how to effectively scheme. But no system makes the reads for him. No system throws the ball down the field and puts it into the tightest of windows in a way that looks effortless. Seriously, watch some of the throws that Brady makes every game and ask yourself with all objectivity 'Could Dalton have made that throw'. I think we can all agree that Andy has made some beautiful throws...but they are few and far between. Most the time when he needs to hit a very small window he misses. Floats it out of bounds. Behind a guy. Throws too early/too late. So while I have seen Dalton make some very nice throws the majority of the time when he has his opportunties he cannot connect. This says nothing of his ability to correctly read the defense.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying those guys aren't great on their own. They all definitely have/had the tools to make them elite, but the combination of coaching, scheme, and surrounding personnel made them look god-like.

There's no question the above listed QBs are better than Dalton in every way, but they also didn't carry their teams either. When you really look at those teams, they were filled with talent. That's all I'm trying to say.
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  #190  
Old 01-16-2013, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by shaolinghost View Post
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying those guys aren't great on their own. They all definitely have/had the tools to make them elite, but the combination of coaching, scheme, and surrounding personnel made them look god-like.

There's no question the above listed QBs are better than Dalton in every way, but they also didn't carry their teams either. When you really look at those teams, they were filled with talent. That's all I'm trying to say.
I gotta disagree on Elway. He WAS the Denver team that made all of those Super Bowls they lost in the late 80's, under a different HC. He single handedly willed those teams to the big game.

Mark Jackson, Sammy Winder, Gerald Wilhite, Vance johnson, Steve Sewell, Orson Mobley, Steve Watson, Ricky Nattiel, Clarence Kay, Bobby Humphrey.....these are not guys you think about when talking offensive juggernaut, but those teams were. It was because of Elway.

The only players on defense were Karl Mecklenberg, Dennis Smith, and Steve Atwater playing with a bunch of also rans. Elway WAS Denver in those days. He was near retirement when the wins came.....a much different player at that stage of his career.
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  #191  
Old 01-16-2013, 01:12 PM
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

Quarterback Sanchez of the New York Jets played the position of quarterback in two consectutive American Football Conference Championship games (both losses) with the last two seasons being a circus.

Quarterback Dalton of the Cincinnati Bengals played the position of quarterback in two consectutive American Football Conference wild card games (both losses).

I do not htink the above mentioned outcomes are equal.
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  #192  
Old 01-16-2013, 01:46 PM
shaolinghost shaolinghost is offline
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Default Re: Dalton = Sanchez

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Originally Posted by Wyche'sWarrior View Post
I gotta disagree on Elway. He WAS the Denver team that made all of those Super Bowls they lost in the late 80's, under a different HC. He single handedly willed those teams to the big game.

Mark Jackson, Sammy Winder, Gerald Wilhite, Vance johnson, Steve Sewell, Orson Mobley, Steve Watson, Ricky Nattiel, Clarence Kay, Bobby Humphrey.....these are not guys you think about when talking offensive juggernaut, but those teams were. It was because of Elway.

The only players on defense were Karl Mecklenberg, Dennis Smith, and Steve Atwater playing with a bunch of also rans. Elway WAS Denver in those days. He was near retirement when the wins came.....a much different player at that stage of his career.
Point taken, and I'm inclined to agree, but there's also no doubting what Terrell Davis did for that Denver team during the regular season and the playoffs. Shannon Sharpe was also always a threat.

Here's something to ponder:
Could Elway have done the same thing for the 90's Bengals that he did in Denver?
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